2022-2023 General Celtics thread

lexrageorge

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Observations from attending the game live:

The officiating was definitely confounding. Mike Brown had cause to be irritated with the missed trip on Fox. Interestingly, Mazzulla called a timeout after the first technical; I think he perhaps sensed that the officiating could be a source of volatility for his team as well.

Grant was complaining non-stop every time he was out there, and I do wish Mazzulla would put the clamps on it. There was one obvious play where the ball clearly went out of bounds off Grant and he started ranting at the official. I was like, seriously? I think the technical came soon after, but I sort of lost track of his complaints at that point. Shortly before, Marcus Smart got called for a flagrant 1 on a 3-point attempt by Fox, which caused the crowed to erupt into the "Hey ref, you suck" chant. The non-stop fouls did seem to disrupt Boston's rhythm, and when the Kings took the lead on Fox's 3 free throws, it really looked like and L. It was probably a game that last year's first half team loses by 8.

Kornet and Pritchard really changed the tone of the game, and keeping Tatum in the lineup at that point was a score for Mazzulla. He not only kicked it into gear, but he did it in a way that got his teammates involved in a big way while also shutting down the Kings offense. There were deserved "M-V-P" chants when Tatum went to the line, and his 3 to close out the 3rd basically fit the lid to the Kings' coffin. Jaylen Brown nailed the coffin shut in the 4th. It's a good think that Brad Stevens doesn't listen to the mediots that think these 2 players should not be on the same roster.

There were some "We want Blake" chants late in the 4th, but Mazzulla wisely seemed not to hear them.
 

benhogan

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https://hoopshype.com/2022/11/26/gordon-haywards-wife-blasts-hornets-im-over-them-not-protecting-players/

Nothing like the wife blasting the team as Gordo sneaks down to the basement for 12-straight hours of COD, Black Ops.

In an alternate world where Danny resigns Gordon, Brad probably doesn't have the flexibility to execute his work the last 15mths.

Taking the keys away from Gordo/Kemba and giving them to the JAYs was the classic 1 step back (for 3-mths) and 10 steps forward for numerous seasons.
 

lovegtm

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https://hoopshype.com/2022/11/26/gordon-haywards-wife-blasts-hornets-im-over-them-not-protecting-players/

Nothing like the wife blasting the team as Gordo sneaks down to the basement for 12-straight hours of COD, Black Ops.

In an alternate world where Danny resigns Gordon, Brad probably doesn't have the flexibility to execute his work the last 15mths.

Taking the keys away from Gordo/Kemba and giving them to the JAYs was the classic 1 step back (for 3-mths) and 10 steps forward for numerous seasons.
With how the Celtics used Hayward on the Jays+Kemba geam, I always felt like they would have been better off splitting his money into 2-3 guys, and having those pieces collectively fill what he did.

Now with Brogdon, White, and Hauser, they've successfully done that. They get the secondary playmaking and spot-up shooting, while paying $42M for 3 guys instead of $30M for 1.

Usually in the NBA you'd rather have one good player than 3 guys, but because Hayward wasn't being used to his full potential (only one ball), it made a lot of sense. And avoiding the injury problems is another bonus.
 

lexrageorge

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The Kemba/Hayward/Smart/Jays team was quite strong during that half season where everyone was healthy. Biggest concern with that team were the BIGs; it was Theis and a developing/injured Robert Williams. But they were cruising going into the CoVid shutdown. Then Kemba's knee and Hawyard's ankle guaranteed that the flaw at the 5 would get badly exposed by the Heat.

Unfortunate news for Gordon; the shoulder injury will cost him at least 2 months if not more. He may end up a buyout candidate during the offseason.

That Kemba-for-Al trade remains a master stroke by Brad.
 

the moops

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Also maybe somebody whispered in Jayson's ear and told him T's are costing him MVP votes
Is having too many technical fouls really a knock on players when it comes to MVP voting?
Jokic, Embiid, Doncic, Durant, etc all get tons of techs. Seems that Giannis is the only one who only gets a few a year
 

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Agree on PP being less of an issue defensively because of his ball pressure and hustle.

I think his minutes can come from a combination of JT, JB, Smart, and Grant (2-3 minutes from each), plus hopefully a bit more regular garbage time opportunities. I think PP really benefits from playing with JT (everyone does but PP gets a lot of catch and shoot opportunists from JT) so I think I would want those 2 on the court together. I bet we see more of that Kornet/JT/Hauser/Brogdon/PP lineup.
I agree/hope! It checks a lot of boxes:
  • Top Dog: JT
  • Penetrator: Brogdon
  • Rim-runner/spot up big man: UniKorn
  • 3P Marksmen: SAM, PP
The nice thing is that they can make this work in other ways as well:
  • Top Dog: JB
  • Penetrator: Marcus
  • Rim-runner/spot up big man: Al (and TL when he returns)
  • 3P Marksmen: Grant, Al
But in the current iteration, the guys covering SAM and PP have a terrible dilemma: leave the long-distance assassins to help on JT or let JT have his way with almost anyone.
 

Jimbodandy

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https://hoopshype.com/2022/11/26/gordon-haywards-wife-blasts-hornets-im-over-them-not-protecting-players/

Nothing like the wife blasting the team as Gordo sneaks down to the basement for 12-straight hours of COD, Black Ops.

In an alternate world where Danny resigns Gordon, Brad probably doesn't have the flexibility to execute his work the last 15mths.

Taking the keys away from Gordo/Kemba and giving them to the JAYs was the classic 1 step back (for 3-mths) and 10 steps forward for numerous seasons.
Ha. I saw the broken shoulder news last night and was grateful that we didn't get more years of the GH spinoff of M.A.S.H. I was surprised that he didn't get injured at his last gender reveal party.
 

lovegtm

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Ha. I saw the broken shoulder news last night and was grateful that we didn't get more years of the GH spinoff of M.A.S.H. I was surprised that he didn't get injured at his last gender reveal party.
He did get hurt, but his wife pushed him to play through it and get the reveal done. She doesn't need his wussy-ass injuries dragging down her Insta.
 

benhogan

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Ha. I saw the broken shoulder news last night and was grateful that we didn't get more years of the GH spinoff of M.A.S.H. I was surprised that he didn't get injured at his last gender reveal party.
On the bright side, this frees up Gordo to take their girls to all the birthday parties while she takes a spa day. Mom needs a break!
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is having too many technical fouls really a knock on players when it comes to MVP voting?
Jokic, Embiid, Doncic, Durant, etc all get tons of techs. Seems that Giannis is the only one who only gets a few a year
You can go back to earlier MVP winners who were always among the league leaders in Technicals. Westbrook, Malone, KG, Kobe, etc

Maybe you get a voter who doesn’t like the player for this but generally speaking the best and highest volume players are going to receive the highest amount of T’s as they are involved in more of the action…..aside from your generational wackos (Draymond, Rodman, etc). It’s a part of the game and a big nothingburger from an MVP perspective.
 

Eddie Jurak

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With how the Celtics used Hayward on the Jays+Kemba geam, I always felt like they would have been better off splitting his money into 2-3 guys, and having those pieces collectively fill what he did.

Now with Brogdon, White, and Hauser, they've successfully done that. They get the secondary playmaking and spot-up shooting, while paying $42M for 3 guys instead of $30M for 1.

Usually in the NBA you'd rather have one good player than 3 guys, but because Hayward wasn't being used to his full potential (only one ball), it made a lot of sense. And avoiding the injury problems is another bonus.
I think the version of this that would have made sense would have been to not sign Kemba. Sign Al, sign Hayward, Marcus is your PG.
 

benhogan

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The Kemba/Hayward/Smart/Jays team was quite strong during that half season where everyone was healthy. Biggest concern with that team were the BIGs; it was Theis and a developing/injured Robert Williams. But they were cruising going into the CoVid shutdown. Then Kemba's knee and Hawyard's ankle guaranteed that the flaw at the 5 would get badly exposed by the Heat.

Unfortunate news for Gordon; the shoulder injury will cost him at least 2 months if not more. He may end up a buyout candidate during the offseason.

That Kemba-for-Al trade remains a master stroke by Brad.
After the initial devastating injury + the following 2 seasons of Gordo, it felt like he was trending down before he opted out. Brad actually cycled that Gordo TPE + cap flexibility into players that Brad subsequently used to add White/Brogdon.

110% agree with the Brad Horford masterstroke. Kemba was a bigger issue than Gordon. Danny knocked on every other GMs door after season 1 of Kemba and nobody answered. I remember one GM said Danny was incessantly calling in an effort to unload Kemba which raised a red flag.

Is having too many technical fouls really a knock on players when it comes to MVP voting?
Jokic, Embiid, Doncic, Durant, etc all get tons of techs. Seems that Giannis is the only one who only gets a few a year
It has zero effect on MVP, I was kind of joking

Although it is much better when Tatum gets back on D and spends less energy on staring down, flailing his arms, & complaining to officials. JT has dialed it back recently after he received that rescinded T for a hand slap a few games back. It feels like the refs were putting JT's gestures under the microscope from the beginning of the preseason
 

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This thread is so delightfully bizarre this year.
Good thing we have guys like Kornet and Pritchard to turn the tide when things get rough!

Wat?

I’m also enjoying the POBOBS love fest. Like, it’s a cooperative game of who can find the newest and most interesting angle on what an amazing job Brad had done. Totally serious that it’s really a joy to read.
 

Reverend

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When can we talk about Tatum's 3pt shooting?
The percentage has been trending down the last few years as attempts have trended up.

Should he just knock it off, or what? The offense is to some extent built around taking open threes not matter when on the clock it is. Maybe it helps the offense overall even if his shooting is subpar?
 

slamminsammya

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The percentage has been trending down the last few years as attempts have trended up.

Should he just knock it off, or what? The offense is to some extent built around taking open threes not matter when on the clock it is. Maybe it helps the offense overall even if his shooting is subpar?
I think he should still keep shooting, I am just more worried about how his form has clearly changed and in the past 6 games or so he's missing wiiiide open ones, some of them pretty badly. I question messing with the form. On the other hand he has been kind of streaky since last year so maybe this is just one of those stretches?

For the people who demand numbers - past 6 games he is at 27% on 3s on 8.7 attempts per game. The odds of that kind of stretch from random variance are low but not impossible but the concerning part for me is the share of those that have been wide open that he has missed.
 

RorschachsMask

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He’s shooting 36% on closely contested threes, 37% on wide open threes, but only 34% on normal open threes. You’d have to think there will be some correction there, he was at 33% a third of the way through last season before shooting over 38% the rest of the way+ the playoffs.

The fact that he has a 63% TS despite being at 35.2% is more encouraging than anything. Same for Jaylen having a 60% TS despite shooting 34.7% from deep.
 

Jimbodandy

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Eh. Tatum has these runs of garbage shooting every year.

When his TS% is 63, probably not the time to worry.

Edit: RM beat me to it (and wore it better)
 

benhogan

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When can we talk about Tatum's 3pt shooting?
~35% last year (regular season)
historically he shoots better during the 2nd half of the season (cherry-pick alert)

Regular season last year:
first 340 3ptA 31.5%
next 300 3ptA 40%

Tatum shot over 39% in the playoffs (on 196 3ptA) last year

So far he is at 35%, expect better things as the season wears on

paging Drew Hanlan if it gets worse

Tatum's eFG% is at an all-time high if that makes any feel better

Monthly splits from last season
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/shooting/2022
 
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Euclis20

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~35% last year (regular season)
historically he shoots better during the 2nd half of the season (cherry-pick alert)

Regular season last year:
first 340 3ptA 31.5%
next 300 3ptA 40%

Tatum shot over 40% in the playoffs (on 191 3ptA) last year

So far he is at 35%, expect better things as the season wears on

paging Drew Hanlan if it gets worse

Tatum's eFG% is at an all-time high if that makes any feel better
Expand that sample to his whole career:

1st half from 3: .366 on 6.0 attempts per game
2nd half from 3: .415 on 6.4 attempts per game

It'd be nice if his 3 point shooting was better, but it's not bad and in all likelihood it will improve. Everyone is drooling over Luka for MVP, and he's shooting a legitimately terrible .294 from 3 over 7.9 attempts per game. Durant is shooting a career low .323 from 3, on 4.7 attempts per game. SGA has exploded this year, but is basically at the same % from 3 as Tatum (on 1/3 the attempts). Trae Young is averaging just .326 from 3 on 7.3 attempts. I could go on, but it's early and we've got a massive sample that tells us Tatum will improve.
 

lovegtm

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Expand that sample to his whole career:

1st half from 3: .366 on 6.0 attempts per game
2nd half from 3: .415 on 6.4 attempts per game

It'd be nice if his 3 point shooting was better, but it's not bad and in all likelihood it will improve. Everyone is drooling over Luka for MVP, and he's shooting a legitimately terrible .294 from 3 over 7.9 attempts per game. Durant is shooting a career low .323 from 3, on 4.7 attempts per game. SGA has exploded this year, but is basically at the same % from 3 as Tatum (on 1/3 the attempts). Trae Young is averaging just .326 from 3 on 7.3 attempts. I could go on, but it's early and we've got a massive sample that tells us Tatum will improve.
It's so tantalizing, because he's already an MVP candidate at 35%, and we've seen him look repeatable at ~40%.....

Let's see how the year goes; as benhogan said, he's made mid-season adjustments to his shot before.
 

lexrageorge

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Seems like we have this conversation about Tatum's 3 point shooting every year. I do think it's easy to underestimate the variance that occurs over the minuscule sample of 6 or 7 games or 50 shots.

There is a chance that he could be playing through an injury; he did show up as "questionable" for Dallas, so maybe the ankle is bothering him. But there's no real evidence that the shoulder injury from last season's playoffs has resurfaced.

35% from long range is a perfectly fine success rate for Tatum, who is hoisting them up at a significantly higher percentage so far this season than James Harden, Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, or LeBron (as Luka and Durant were already mentioned).
 

Imbricus

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Taking the keys away from Gordo/Kemba and giving them to the JAYs was the classic 1 step back (for 3-mths) and 10 steps forward for numerous seasons.
I was (happily) floored when I learned that Brad had gotten Horford back (I would have spent a first-round pick alone for that) AND dumped Kemba, and his salary, all in the same trade. Brad has pulled the trigger on a few other smart deals (getting White and Brogdon). He's got a few TPE's to play with this winter, if he wants to. He made two good second round picks in Begarin and Davison. I think there's a real chance that Brad is like really, really, really good at this GM stuff. I can't think of a significant blunder he's made so far. Can anyone? (I suppose the verdict is out on not signing Grant to an extension in the offseason -- but right now I see that as a wash, especially with Grant's constant bellyaching.)
 

benhogan

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I was (happily) floored when I learned that Brad had gotten Horford back (I would have spent a first-round pick alone for that) AND dumped Kemba, and his salary, all in the same trade. Brad has pulled the trigger on a few other smart deals (getting White and Brogdon). He's got a few TPE's to play with this winter, if he wants to. He made two good second round picks in Begarin and Davison. I think there's a real chance that Brad is like really, really, really good at this GM stuff. I can't think of a significant blunder he's made so far. Can anyone? (I suppose the verdict is out on not signing Grant to an extension in the offseason -- but right now I see that as a wash, especially with Grant's constant bellyaching.)
@wade boggs chicken dinner and I joke about the 15th man on the roster as being Brad's Achilles Heel (which is a nothingburger) Even his 2-way work has been excellent (Hauser last season)

Brad has reshaped the roster with contract clarity for numerous seasons.

Grant is an important role player due to his defensive versatility and 3pt shot. BUT Brad knows Grant will struggle to get an unmatchable deal in RFA. Rebuilders are the ones with cap space and 9pts/5 rebounds for a role-playing bench sWING isn't where teams will pay big $$$. The Celtics went down this road with Marcus Smart before, his agent eventually came hat in hand to Danny looking for a deal.

I suspect he'll end up re-signing, but if he plays out of his mind this year and earns a large offer it probably means good things for Boston this year.
 

lovegtm

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@wade boggs chicken dinner and I joke about the 15th man on the roster as being Brad's Achilles Heel (which is a nothingburger) Even his 2-way work has been excellent (Hauser last season)

Brad has reshaped the roster with contract clarity for numerous seasons.

Grant is an important role player due to his defensive versatility and 3pt shot. BUT Brad knows Grant will struggle to get an unmatchable deal in RFA. Rebuilders are the ones with cap space and 9pts/5 rebounds for a role-playing bench sWING isn't where teams will pay big $$$. The Celtics went down this road with Marcus Smart before, his agent eventually came hat in hand to Danny looking for a deal.

I suspect he'll end up re-signing, but if he plays out of his mind this year and earns a large offer it probably means good things for Boston this year.
I think a team like the Pacers could take a swing at him, even without a big numbers season. He fits perfectly, they wanted him in the Brogdon deal, and they can get room to make a decent offer.
 

jmcc5400

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Part of this is that they don't have to play themselves, but the Celts are projected by Tankathon to have the league's easiest schedule the rest of the way. https://www.tankathon.com/remaining_schedule_strength

The Bucks, in particular, with 12 home games and 6 road games so far (compared to the Celtics' - and Cavs - 9/10) have had a comparatively easy go of it so far. I think there is a real value to the one seed this year, as I think the there is a pretty significant drop-off after Milwaukee and Cleveland.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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@wade boggs chicken dinner and I joke about the 15th man on the roster as being Brad's Achilles Heel (which is a nothingburger) Even his 2-way work has been excellent (Hauser last season)

Brad has reshaped the roster with contract clarity for numerous seasons.

Grant is an important role player due to his defensive versatility and 3pt shot. BUT Brad knows Grant will struggle to get an unmatchable deal in RFA. Rebuilders are the ones with cap space and 9pts/5 rebounds for a role-playing bench sWING isn't where teams will pay big $$$. The Celtics went down this road with Marcus Smart before, his agent eventually came hat in hand to Danny looking for a deal.

I suspect he'll end up re-signing, but if he plays out of his mind this year and earns a large offer it probably means good things for Boston this year.
you beat me to the Garrison Matthews reference. :alien:

I wonder if not keeping Bol Bol will be a mistake
 

Euclis20

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you beat me to the Garrison Matthews reference. :alien:

I wonder if not keeping Bol Bol will be a mistake
It's impossible to say, even if he ends up being a rotation player going forward. He's had 14 starts in Orlando and is playing 26 mpg, he wouldn't have had anywhere near the opportunity in Boston. Best case for him would be to take the Kornet minutes - 0 starts and < 13 mpg (more likely he'd be behind Kornet and just replacing the Vonleh or Griffin minutes). That's probably not enough for him to develop the way he is with the Magic right now, who are perfectly happy to throw crap against the wall seeing what sticks while they increase their draft position.
 

benhogan

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you beat me to the Garrison Matthews reference. :alien:

I wonder if not keeping Bol Bol will be a mistake
Bol Bol was completely out of LF. Can't say anybody around here (incl myself) was all that upset when they packaged him to Orlando to save a few shekels.

I still have draft night memories of Bol Bol. Poor kid was drafted in the middle of the 2nd round, last guy in the Green Room
 

lars10

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One upside: Grant's incessant & embarrassing bitchin' to the Refs probably turns Tatum off from doing it. JT has cooled it a bit with his arm-flapping after rim run misses.

Also maybe somebody whispered in Jayson's ear and told him T's are costing him MVP votes
Tatum has also changed how he goes to the rim I believe. He’s not bringing the ball from down low up through arms to try and draw fouls as much.. he seems to be going stronger at the defender and the hoop.. more in control and gathered..I’m not sure exactly what it is, but he’s become an elite finisher and not losing the ball nearly as much as past years while driving.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Bol Bol was completely out of LF. Can't say anybody around here (incl myself) was all that upset when they packaged him to Orlando to save a few shekels.

I still have draft night memories of Bol Bol. Poor kid was drafted in the middle of the 2nd round, last guy in the Green Room
I was rooting for Celts to take him for that whole draft! I just think guys with his profile---great tools, some skills, needs polish and focus----are unusually likely to be diamonds in the rough. Of course, the vast majority of them fail and so I can't blame anyone for passing on him either.

I still don't think he's shown a lot of grit in his game, and it's not clear his body is going to hold up for any length of time. But he's worth SOMETHING as an upside gamble
 

Jimbodandy

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Bol Bol was completely out of LF. Can't say anybody around here (incl myself) was all that upset when they packaged him to Orlando to save a few shekels.

I still have draft night memories of Bol Bol. Poor kid was drafted in the middle of the 2nd round, last guy in the Green Room
I'm still not. I really don't think that Bol Bol is what people think he is. He is figuring out how to score in a wide-open environment at 23, and I'm happy for him. But aside from grabbing a few rebounds as well, he really does little else. I don't think that there's anyone in our extended rotation that I'd swap out for him, and that goes to like player 10.

Is it possible that two years from now, he might be a 2 DARKO player that we wish that we had for low dollars, sure. But I wouldn't trade Grant or even Pritchard now for that later. We should be focused on now.
 

lovegtm

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I'm optimistic about this team because it does the most scaleable regular season thing (halfcourt offense) really, really well, even with some inevitable regression.

Usually teams this good on O are doing a lot of it in transition, which gets taken away in the postseason. Good regular season defensive teams also lose some of their edge when everyone starts trying 100% and scheming optimally in April.

The Celtics are making the hardest thing (consistent halfcourt offensive execution) look easy, and that bodes very, very well.
 

lovegtm

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Kings getting beat compilation

What is Kevin Huerter doing here?!!!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-TWJ2e6yZE
One thing I wonder with this guy's compilations: how many of these "mistakes" are just the inherently hard parts of playing NBA defense, and how much is also the difficulty of locking in mentally for 82 games, 48 mins/game?

For example, he constantly berates guys for not getting over the top of screens, but gets equally irate when they anticipate the screen and lean towards it a bit (presumably to get over).

Like.....those are two very hard things to balance, and all but the most elite defensive players are going to fail to balance it a decent % of the time. Milwaukee is notable in that their perimeter guys handle screens really well, but this is really non-trivial shit. It's not as easy as "oh ok, not going to make that mistake any more."

On the flipside, I suppose it gives a view of one of the ways playoff and crunchtime defenses get harder to solve: guys are mentally locked in, and do get the little things right more often than in the regular season.
 

Reverend

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For example, he constantly berates guys for not getting over the top of screens, but gets equally irate when they anticipate the screen and lean towards it a bit (presumably to get over).

Like.....those are two very hard things to balance, and all but the most elite defensive players are going to fail to balance it a decent % of the time. Milwaukee is notable in that their perimeter guys handle screens really well, but this is really non-trivial shit. It's not as easy as "oh ok, not going to make that mistake any more."
I was thinking similarly, but more like, “Isn’t there a place to say that a guy just got beat?” Like, I really like his look at positional defense and screens and stuff, in large measure because I think TV analysts tend to look at the plays from the POV of the offense beating the defense, and I think I see the game better when it’s described from the POV getting beat by the offense, if that makes sense. And I think he’s really good at identifying and describing missed assignments.

But after he kept talking about gambling, I started going through all of them. Is anything being stayed completely squared up and sliding laterally “gambling”? At 00m49s Huerter against Jaylen, I can kinda buy it. But then I went back to 00m29s against Tatum and he was actually “gambling” to the correct side, Tatum faked right, Huerter, Huerter spun that way, and then Tatum crossed up left. I guess an argument could be made that if Huerter hadn’t been pivoted to his right, he wouldn’t have had to pivot as much to his left on the fake, but that seems like just being beat by a great player. Then the guy starting stating that you can’t get beat by jab steps and up-fakes. Well, gee whiz…

What I loved about the video which he didn’t really do intentionally, was showcase Celtics offensive spacing, especially in the second half of the video. Like, he’s very focused on individual defense and dealing with screens, but he’s like, “And now look at all the space he’s got to go through!” and I would rewind and see the snipers pulling out to fuck with the defense; in one case (04m24s), Pritchard takes what on examination is a super intentional step backwards from the arc to Tatum’s left,, his defender tentatively takes a step towards him, and immediately at that moment, Tatum at the top of the arc, with that extra step of room, drives to the hoop. And, of course, Hauser was positioned at the opposite corner to Tatum’s right which was part of why there was so much space down the middle.

Seems a bit harsh to blame a guy for that for opening up his hips. But it’s a fantastic look at the Celtics using spacing and 3pt sniping to make things very difficult for opposing defenses.

I also wonder, in thinking about what you said about defenses changing for the playoffs @lovegtm , about the stuff about playing the man with the ball tight on screens. It seems like a lot of the guys getting beat by screens they could have gone over didn’t see the screen. I wonder if that’s intentional by the D, but maybe doesn’t work in the playoffs when people play tighter?
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
16,438
Santa Monica
I was thinking similarly, but more like, “Isn’t there a place to say that a guy just got beat?” Like, I really like his look at positional defense and screens and stuff, in large measure because I think TV analysts tend to look at the plays from the POV of the offense beating the defense, and I think I see the game better when it’s described from the POV getting beat by the offense, if that makes sense. And I think he’s really good at identifying and describing missed assignments.

But after he kept talking about gambling, I started going through all of them. Is anything being stayed completely squared up and sliding laterally “gambling”? At 00m49s Huerter against Jaylen, I can kinda buy it. But then I went back to 00m29s against Tatum and he was actually “gambling” to the correct side, Tatum faked right, Huerter, Huerter spun that way, and then Tatum crossed up left. I guess an argument could be made that if Huerter hadn’t been pivoted to his right, he wouldn’t have had to pivot as much to his left on the fake, but that seems like just being beat by a great player. Then the guy starting stating that you can’t get beat by jab steps and up-fakes. Well, gee whiz…

What I loved about the video which he didn’t really do intentionally, was showcase Celtics offensive spacing, especially in the second half of the video. Like, he’s very focused on individual defense and dealing with screens, but he’s like, “And now look at all the space he’s got to go through!” and I would rewind and see the snipers pulling out to fuck with the defense; in one case (04m24s), Pritchard takes what on examination is a super intentional step backwards from the arc to Tatum’s left,, his defender tentatively takes a step towards him, and immediately at that moment, Tatum at the top of the arc, with that extra step of room, drives to the hoop. And, of course, Hauser was positioned at the opposite corner to Tatum’s right which was part of why there was so much space down the middle.

Seems a bit harsh to blame a guy for that for opening up his hips. But it’s a fantastic look at the Celtics using spacing and 3pt sniping to make things very difficult for opposing defenses.

I also wonder, in thinking about what you said about defenses changing for the playoffs @lovegtm , about the stuff about playing the man with the ball tight on screens. It seems like a lot of the guys getting beat by screens they could have gone over didn’t see the screen. I wonder if that’s intentional by the D, but maybe doesn’t work in the playoffs when people play tighter?
The narrator is completely out of his mind, his commentary is for pure theater & entertainment purposes only.

While I do agree that in transition guys not finding a man is easily solvable or guys needlessly doubling is bad. His comment on a player getting beat on a Tatum fadeaway is downright silly, not even Dennis Rodman is stopping that move. PLUS the Kings live with a challenged Tatum mid-range fallaway over a paint kick-out, step-in 3 from numerous Celtics.

Good job on turning it around and examining all the offensive things the Celtics were doing well.
It's much more CELTIC porn than KANGz defensive blunders
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

Member
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Jun 26, 2006
11,900
All I can hear is Mark Jackson yelling, "good defense, better offense!"

It's sort of like the opposite of baseball. There, you tell kids, hey, even the best hitters get out 70 percent of the time. In basketball, even the worst player in the league (Reggie Bullock, the lowest percentage of anyone with 100 shots attempted) makes 30 percent of their shots. There's only so much the defender can do.
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
4,192
For example, he constantly berates guys for not getting over the top of screens
Yeah, I think this is the part he gets wrong the most. I think that most of the time in these examples, if that defender goes over the top, the player with the ball just takes off for the basket and is a full step ahead.
 

tbrown_01923

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Silver Supporter
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Sep 29, 2006
689
Serious question, who's the third best player on the team at this point?
  • Horford
  • White
  • Brogdon
  • Smart
There is a ton of parity there... they have all been fantastic.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
26,193
Serious question, who's the third best player on the team at this point?
  • Horford
  • White
  • Brogdon
  • Smart
There is a ton of parity there... they have all been fantastic.
Smart is a tough one to place as he has such strong intangible value. Brogdon is the best by a good margin from my perspective.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Dec 12, 2002
39,657
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A strange, Tatum-less win for the Celtics. Tatum was almost certainly finally getting a maintenance day. The Wizards were not at full strength either, missing Kuzma and Hachimura.

Somehow, the Wizards managed to shoot neartly 54% from the field, turn the ball over only 4 times, and get to the line more than the Celtics (33 vs 26 FTA). And it didn't matter - the Celtics offense was so good that this game was never in doubt, with the Celtics taking a 25 point lead into the 4th quarter. Washington crushed it in garbage time, outscoring the Celtics 33-17 in the 4th, for a final score of 130-121 that is in no way indicative of how one-side the game was.

Jaylen led 7 Celtics scoring in double figures with 36 points on 13-23 shooting, though he was only 27 from three. He was followed by Brogdon (17), White (15), Horford, Smart, and Hauser (14 each), and Kornet (12).

Mazzulla tried to give the Celtic starters the full 4th quarter off, but the bench was threatening to blow a 25 point lead, so he came back with the starters for a few minutes before again going back to the bench. Brown (34), White (31), and Grant (32) were the only Celtics who played more than 30 minutes.
 

tbrown_01923

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Silver Supporter
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Sep 29, 2006
689
Smart is a tough one to place as he has such strong intangible value. Brogdon is the best by a good margin from my perspective.
I'd agree but white has been durable and delivering. Horford is at a position of need. I guess I should have included Grant - but he seems to me to not be quite up to the level of these four.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
26,193
A strange, Tatum-less win for the Celtics. Tatum was almost certainly finally getting a maintenance day. The Wizards were not at full strength either, missing Kuzma and Hachimura.

Somehow, the Wizards managed to shoot neartly 54% from the field, turn the ball over only 4 times, and get to the line more than the Celtics (33 vs 26 FTA). And it didn't matter - the Celtics offense was so good that this game was never in doubt, with the Celtics taking a 25 point lead into the 4th quarter. Washington crushed it in garbage time, outscoring the Celtics 33-17 in the 4th, for a final score of 130-121 that is in no way indicative of how one-side the game was.

Jaylen led 7 Celtics scoring in double figures with 36 points on 13-23 shooting, though he was only 27 from three. He was followed by Brogdon (17), White (15), Horford, Smart, and Hauser (14 each), and Kornet (12).

Mazzulla tried to give the Celtic starters the full 4th quarter off, but the bench was threatening to blow a 25 point lead, so he came back with the starters for a few minutes before again going back to the bench. Brown (34), White (31), and Grant (32) were the only Celtics who played more than 30 minutes.
Good point on the Tatum rest day disguised as an ankle injury on the front end of a B2B. Guess we’ll be more certain tomorrow whether he plays or not. Mazzulla surely didn’t want to come back with the starters which indicates to me that he planned to have a full squad tomorrow night.

The early returns to me show that Mazzulla values full days off greater than limiting a guy by a few minutes in how he’s managing these rest days. I think that’s more of something a former player will do as they recognize the greater value in full rest.