2021 Solheim Cup - Inverness Club - Toledo, OH

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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If you're a fan of the sport, you like fierce competition on a really tough set-up, and you enjoy watching good golf, you should watch the Solheim Cup. Think Ryder Cup minus all the MAME (Massive American Male Egos), and also minus some of the most ridiculous ass-hattery that happens with Ryder Cup crowds. Right now, we're about half way through the first session of Day 1 and it's tight: no one with more than a 2 up lead, back and forth in 3 of the 4 matches. Here are the teams:
USA
Nelly Korda
Danielle Kang
Lexi Thompson
Lizette Salas
Jess Korda
Ally Ewing
Austin Ernst
Jennifer Kupcho
Yealimi Noh
Megan Khang
Brittany Altomare
Mina Harigae

EUROPE
Anna Nordqvist
Georgia Hall
Sophia Popov
Charley Hull
Carlota Ciganda
Leona Maguire
Madelene Sagstrom
Matilda Castren
Nanna Koertstz Madsen
Mel Reid
Celine Boutier
Emily Kristine Pedersen

First Session as of 10:28AM:
Kang and Ernst AS (12) v. Norqvist and Castren
US Ewing and Khan 2up (12) v. Boutier and Hall
EUR Reid and Maguire 2up (11) v. Korda and Korda
Hull and Pedersen AS (9) v. Thompson and Altomare

Notes:
The Kordas are playing like CRAP so far.
Thompson and Altomare are either awful or great on most holes with not a lot in between.
The Euros had many fans and family have to stay home because of COVID-19 regulations.
Charley Hull swings freaking hard.
Maguire, rookie of Ireland, is fun to watch.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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I would also like to add that I hate NBC, can't believe that 3 of the 4 announcers that I am hearing are men, and that Bubba Watson is a team "helper" for the US, which of course NBC turned into a little special story on him being there for the "girls."

Ugh.
 

Koufax

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Thanks for the reminder. I love watching women's golf. They are really, really good.
 

E5 Yaz

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Four morning matches all going to the 18th ... as good as it gets
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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I had to step out for the afternoon session - just seeing that it ain’t pretty for the US. Noticed something “awkward” referenced in the Korda match? Security involved? Anyone catch it? I’ll have to hit the googles.
 

Senator Donut

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I had to step out for the afternoon session - just seeing that it ain’t pretty for the US. Noticed something “awkward” referenced in the Korda match? Security involved? Anyone catch it? I’ll have to hit the googles.
Sagstrom picked up Korda’s ball that was near the lip. The rules official determined the ball was overhanging the cup and Sagstrom didn’t allow ten seconds to elapse for it to potentially drop in. The hole was awarded to team USA.

It was almost certainly not going to fall in, but that was pretty careless from Sagstrom.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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Yeesh. What an absolutely wretched thing that have happen for both sides. They apparently went over this scenario in the rules meetings - so I bet it's fresh in the official's mind, so she says something because she's counting the seconds, it's her job and she thinks it's overhanging, so...and then they have to go to replay because obviously it's a thing now and TV has it and social media has it and...then they have to decide that it was overhanging, because it WAS, but of course it wasn't going to go in, not for a second...BUT the rule is clear, so they have to make the call they make because you can't just pretend it all didn't happen (even though that may have been best , just to have the original rules official walk it all back and say, "You know what, never mind.")..and the US can't "deny" the official ruling, so they win the hole and feel like shit and probably like they want to puke because they know how it'll be spun...and the Euros are pissed and upset and somehow this all turns into a discussion about gamesmanship or sportsmanship and really, it was neither. It was just a 3 second mistake. And either we play golf by these rules and actually enforce them all, or we change the freaking rules because some of them - like this one as applied here - are dumb and lead to stupid shit that shouldn't happen. Of course, maybe that's part of the game, too.
 

Phil Plantier

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I don't really follow golf, but the No Laying Up podcast is at the Solheim Cup this weekend, and they'll have recaps after each night. I recommend it.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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The US needs some sort of cheerleader-type out there right now - they are down, but not out - but the crowd is dead. They need a Christina Kim type, (or Khang from yesterday) to get excited when something good happens. It's so quiet. Also, Nelly seems like she has been in her head since the 1st tee yesterday morning...lots of pressure feeling like you're the best in the world and not quite playing like it.
 

benhogan

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This is on.

Someone needs to cut the back of Leona Maguire's hamstring, right at the bottom... she'll never play golf again.

She'll quit the game.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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Lexi off to a very shaky start
Kinda all of the US off to a very shaky start. #1 is killing the US today (except Khang, who just birdied it). And seems like there are a lot of 8-15ft par putts for most of the US right now, which they are missing. They'll turn it around and I'd bet this ends up coming down to the 11th or 12th match.

I just want to make a note that, despite some awkward moments over the years and a few serious controversies, I find this event to be incredibly joyous. The players from both sides seem to legitimately enjoy each other, while still being incredibly competitive. And Judy Rankin, obviously a HOF player and captain in her own right, is just perfect for calling this event. She has so much respect for each individual player from both sides. She doesn't look for controversy on every shot, she looks for the good on every shot, every hole, no matter the team. The men's game and broadcasters could take a few things from the way she handles herself as a former captain and as a broadcaster.

I am pulling for the US in the Solheim, of course, but I honestly would feel so happy for the Euro side if they won, too. I find that with the Ryder Cup, I can barely stomach the US team because of some of the epic a-holes on it, and I find the Euro team - as a whole - to be annoying as hell because of their very vocal feeling of superiority with the "we can play as a team and the US can't" attitude. Both sides are often insufferable in that event. I think the last time I really liked a US team was when Azinger captained in 2008. Since then, finding a way to cheer for Reed, Koepka, Bryson, and Bubba (although he is more annoying than flat out unlikeable at the Ryder Cup) is hard. I sort of hope Koepka can't play, just to lose the whole Koepka/Dechambeau dynamic. And Patrick Reed, ugh. Maybe his pneumonia (it was COVID, and I don't care what anyone says about it, young athletic guys don't get bi-lateral pneumonia without an underlying cause and that cause right now, in Texas, is freaking COVID) keeps him sidelined, too.

Anyway, enjoying my Solheim Cup day off, and enjoying good golf and players I like on both sides.
 
I find that with the Ryder Cup, I can barely stomach the US team because of some of the epic a-holes on it, and I find the Euro team - as a whole - to be annoying as hell because of their very vocal feeling of superiority with the "we can play as a team and the US can't" attitude. Both sides are often insufferable in that event. I think the last time I really liked a US team was when Azinger captained in 2008. Since then, finding a way to cheer for Reed, Koepka, Bryson, and Bubba (although he is more annoying than flat out unlikeable at the Ryder Cup) is hard. I sort of hope Koepka can't play, just to lose the whole Koepka/Dechambeau dynamic. And Patrick Reed, ugh. Maybe his pneumonia (it was COVID, and I don't care what anyone says about it, young athletic guys don't get bi-lateral pneumonia without an underlying cause and that cause right now, in Texas, is freaking COVID) keeps him sidelined, too.
Btw, I'm finding myself increasingly agreeing with this take over the years as well.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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15-13 final...frankly, the US did well to make it this close. I am disappointed for Salas and Danielle Kang, who really seem to be amazing people and teammates and leaders, and who both came close, but probably feel like they let the their team down.

Great event, though, all around. Show me any player on either team that you can't root for - can't be done. And these women are amazing players, too. Just amazing. The most irritating thing about the entire event (besides the saturday controversy that was really not worthy of being called a controversy) was how many male players get asked for their opinions or tweet their opinions and refer to the women as "girls." Maybe I'm too sensitive, but it irritates me.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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Let me also say that I'd take Mel reid and Leona Maguire on my team in any sport, or in a back alley knife fight. They cold blooded assassins. Reid without her best game today still brought it to the 18th and didn't;t crack a smile until Pedersen holed the last putt on 18.
 

TFP

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Ernst and Salas missing their putts in the span of 30 seconds was the difference. Credit to Team Europe who very much deserved to win and Leona Maguire might be my new favorite player.

This event was a blast to watch and I absolutely watched more minutes of this than I will at the Ryder Cup.

The most irritating thing about the entire event (besides the saturday controversy that was really not worthy of being called a controversy) was how many male players get asked for their opinions or tweet their opinions and refer to the women as "girls." Maybe I'm too sensitive, but it irritates me.
I dunno, anytime LPGA players are asked what the PGA Tour can to do to help them, they always just say “support us and promote us”. Not that they NEED that but I think it’s appreciated, from what I can tell. I think the men are trying to do just that, and Bubba’s appearance this week by all accounts has been 100% genuine and not perfomative. Supposedly his daughters are interested and he wanted to bring them around the atmosphere too.

I’m with you on the “girls” thing though.
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
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Just watching the last few minutes of coverage - they just caught Jessica Korda and Sophia Popov in a long embrace, Korda telling Popov "I love you." Popov just said how much fun it was and how amazing the week was. Maybe that happens at the Ryder Cup, but I tend to remember the whining and backstabbing more in the aftermath of those contests, win or lose.

@TFP, I agree that the men should promote and be supportive, but the use of "girls" - even by Bubba while on the course as a "helper" - comes off as pejorative in the sense that it's like these ladies are "the kid sisters" of the male players, and it's just so cool that they, too, can play at such a high level! Wow!! I mean, my word, who would have thought such a thing?

You know who? Most woman athletes and a crap ton of other women and even a crap ton of forward thinking men out there. I am sure most of the women on the tour are happy to have the support of male players, but I'm also sure they are irritated that they somehow still seem to need it in order to get eyeballs on their sport. Sore spot for me.
 
What's the female equivalent of "guys"? I mean, there really isn't one ("gals" doesn't work), but I suspect that a lot of people using "girls" in this sort of context are trying to use it as the slangy female equivalent of "guys" rather than the female equivalent of "boys", if you follow me. Or am I totally off base with this?
 

Phragle

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Seems like America coming in as a favorite w a more talented roster and losing is a thing now. Men and women. Are we picking too many good stroke play golfers for match play events? This week I don't think the American team attacked the course very well. Some of those pins were in spots Rory couldn't get to but that didn't stop them from trying. Also I was seriously wondering if they could pick Nelly for the Ryder Cup team. Shame on me. We need a Solheim cup on a year when shes playing like shit leading up to it.
 

The Needler

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Dec 7, 2016
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You know who? Most woman athletes and a crap ton of other women and even a crap ton of forward thinking men out there. I am sure most of the women on the tour are happy to have the support of male players, but I'm also sure they are irritated that they somehow still seem to need it in order to get eyeballs on their sport. Sore spot for me.
According to the available data, it’s actually a crap ton of forward thinking men, and a significantly smaller crap ton of women. The LPGA audience, is, like the PGA audience, about 2/3 men. For whatever reasons, the female population at large isn’t as interested in pro golf as men are. I am a big LPGA fan, moreso than the PGA Tour. I have volunteered at tournaments, traveled to be a fan at Symetra tournaments, etc. And at each stop, if find the live audience to be, like the TV audience, largely men. So it’s not surprising to me that the tour would think the best way to enlarge the LPGA audience is by appealing to PGA Tour fans, which has similar demographics, but a much larger audience. The bigger question I guess is what it’s going to take to make the LPGA fan demographics (in this country) more closely resemble that of the athletes. In some other countries, as I’m sure you know, the women’s tour is more popular than the men’s.
 

Phragle

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What did you guys think of Inverness? I loved it. I'm not sure if it would play as well for the men but I need more of it. I'd support a PGA championship there, and definitely a Women's US Open. Maybe a touch too hard for match play, but it was a proper golf.

It doesn't have a ton of elevation changes, few trees, not many target golf holes, nothing cheap, and it's a parkland course. I can't help but think what they squeezed out of that land compared to having to watch Torrey Pines again this year. Donald Ross man.
 

Phil Plantier

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This event was a blast to watch and I absolutely watched more minutes of this than I will at the Ryder Cup.
This is the first women's golf event I ever watched. I really enjoyed it. It showed me how much these national-level competitions are gateways to the sport.

The thing I liked about it, and the thing I like about the few men's tournaments I watch, is that bad shots were punished. I find most men's tournaments super-boring because where they hit shots doesn't seem to matter, they end up on the green anyway. Are most women's tournaments like this?

Also: Petr Korda's kids! He was an amazing tennis player to root for. And the daughters look just like him (which is maybe not a 100% blessing).

I dunno, anytime LPGA players are asked what the PGA Tour can to do to help them, they always just say “support us and promote us”. Not that they NEED that but I think it’s appreciated, from what I can tell. I think the men are trying to do just that, and Bubba’s appearance this week by all accounts has been 100% genuine and not perfomative. Supposedly his daughters are interested and he wanted to bring them around the atmosphere too.
And maybe not schedule their "fifth major" on the same weekend.

I’m with you on the “girls” thing though.
[/QUOTE]
What's the female equivalent of "guys"? I mean, there really isn't one ("gals" doesn't work), but I suspect that a lot of people using "girls" in this sort of context are trying to use it as the slangy female equivalent of "guys" rather than the female equivalent of "boys", if you follow me. Or am I totally off base with this?
They're called "women," for fuck's sake. Every time the interviewer called the teams "guys" I died a little.

I get that "guys" is hard to get away from. But I'm trying. I hope the commentators try too. "Guys" is not good enough.
 
They're called "women," for fuck's sake. Every time the interviewer called the teams "guys" I died a little.

I get that "guys" is hard to get away from. But I'm trying. I hope the commentators try too. "Guys" is not good enough.
My point - which I'm not sure if you missed - is that there really ought to be a female equivalent of "guys" other than the doesn't-quite-work "gals", something looser and less formal than "men/women" (and certainly much more so than "gentlemen/ladies") but not potentially age-demeaning like "boys/girls". Of course, there's a sense in which a woman can say, e.g., "I'm going out with the girls tonight" and mean her friends in the same sense as men might use "the guys" (or "the boys"). As such, I try not to automatically assume conscious or subconscious intent to demean by the use of "girls" in the ay we're talking about.
 

Phil Plantier

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My point - which I'm not sure if you missed - is that there really ought to be a female equivalent of "guys" other than the doesn't-quite-work "gals", something looser and less formal than "men/women" (and certainly much more so than "gentlemen/ladies") but not potentially age-demeaning like "boys/girls". Of course, there's a sense in which a woman can say, e.g., "I'm going out with the girls tonight" and mean her friends in the same sense as men might use "the guys" (or "the boys"). As such, I try not to automatically assume conscious or subconscious intent to demean by the use of "girls" in the ay we're talking about.
I wasn't trying to single you out - I was more upset with the interviewer.

I don't know if there's such a thing as an equivalent to "guys" (I try to use "folks," but that's more limited) due to stuff we can discuss in V&N: anything diminutive for women is going to have a power-diminishing connotation.
 

steveluck7

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My point - which I'm not sure if you missed - is that there really ought to be a female equivalent of "guys" other than the doesn't-quite-work "gals", something looser and less formal than "men/women" (and certainly much more so than "gentlemen/ladies") but not potentially age-demeaning like "boys/girls". Of course, there's a sense in which a woman can say, e.g., "I'm going out with the girls tonight" and mean her friends in the same sense as men might use "the guys" (or "the boys"). As such, I try not to automatically assume conscious or subconscious intent to demean by the use of "girls" in the ay we're talking about.
Is "ladies" an option?

Also, back to the topic of team golf and potentially wanting more of it. I think what makes the Ryder Cup and the Solheim Cup so captivating is the crowd. They are encouraged to be loud way more so than in any PGA event, save for the Waste Management. I think this makes them pay just a bit more attention to the goings on and react accordingly.
Now, the format certainly helps. A par save on the 12th can be way more impactful in a team format (specifically Ryder / Solheim formats) than in any other event. As a result of that, and the crowds investment, the electricity gets turned up which makes it so much more fun to watch.

Now, I certainly don't think the answer is to try to artificially manufacture more team events, they just need to market the Solheim and President's Cups (is there a women's equivalent of the President's Cup?) to get the casual interest up near the level of the Ryder Cup.
In an every-other-year schedule, we're guaranteed all 3 of these events over the course of 2 years, which I think is good and if there is a women's equivalent of the President's Cup, we'd get 2 a year which would be, IMO, about the max without desensitizing fans to them
 
(is there a women's equivalent of the President's Cup?)
There really ought to be a Korean team playing in a women's event like the Ryder/Solheim/President's Cups. But as of now, there isn't.

The problem with the President's Cup - unlike the Ryder Cup and Solheim Cup - is that it clearly feels like an exhibition. My WGC team concept (which I spelled out in the Ryder Cup thread) was premised around the notion that fans would actually gravitate toward teams led by and featuring their favorite golfers, and that you'd have the sort of personality-plus-team-driven interest that fans have in a sport like Formula 1 or NASCAR, which - in addition to there being massive purses - probably would make players care a bit more. Also, it'd be super cool if a couple of European guys like Rahm and McIlroy were captains of teams and just picked European players to be in them, so that they could sort of be practicing for the Ryder Cup and you'd get a nationalistic element to this sort of franchise-like system - and so that it felt like all of the franchise-like teams were actualy working toward the Ryder Cup and/or President's Cup at the end of the rainbow, which would then feel like the culmination of a form of golf that all of the players have some pressurized experience in, instead of feeling so foreign to American players in a way that they don't for non-Americans.

Actually, given that this is the Solheim Cup thread, I wonder if a player-led, team-based format might work well in women's golf? It's not like the LPGA Tour has loads of normal events with the sort of longstanding traditions that the PGA Tour has, and I bet a recurring series of events along team lines throughout the season could add more interest to their non-majors throughout the year.