NFL Coaching Carousel

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,620
Carroll and Bill Walsh are probably the most successful of the college->NFL coaches, but they had spent most of their careers as pro assistants. Is there a modern example of a college coach with little to no pro experience succeeding in the NFL?
Jimmy Johnson

Jim Harbaugh played and coached QBs
 

lostjumper

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 27, 2009
1,277
Concord, NH
Honestly never knew that until just now
I only read about it yesterday. I was curious what was going on as well, looked up a couple of articles that lead to his wikipedia page. That section under Controversies is loooong. I think 10 years ago, he gets a HC job and nobody cares. Now? It's a different world. That incident in the parking garage is looked upon with disgust instead of being waived off as "boys will be boys".
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
I only read about it yesterday. I was curious what was going on as well, looked up a couple of articles that lead to his wikipedia page. That section under Controversies is loooong. I think 10 years ago, he gets a HC job and nobody cares. Now? It's a different world. That incident in the parking garage is looked upon with disgust instead of being waived off as "boys will be boys".
I just read it now. Hadn’t heard about any of the “controversies” before.

Totally agree with your take. The incident with the woman in the parking lot stands out from the others — but the other incidents suggest that there was a pattern of bad behavior during that stage of his life.

I don’t know if he ever gets a NFL head coaching gig. He certainly doesn’t get one with no head-coaching experience and just three years as an OC under perhaps the most renowned offensive coaching mind of his generation. You can certainly argue that white guys with more baggage got chances (Matt Patricia springs immediately to mind, I’m sure there are others), but the world has changed in the past couple years.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,012
Mansfield MA
But that’s exactly why you push so hard into the red. Nothing matters once Brees leaves and his career is week to week at this point. The only thing that matters is this season.

You do a hard reset for a year or two, draft a QB with a higher first round pick, and try and rebuild from there. Sean Payton isn’t going anywhere. 2021 might be ugly, but you take one or two stinkers if you bounce back.
I think the reset is going to more complicated than that. They are in a tough spot with those contracts where cutting or trading is not going to save much money. I expect they will mostly extend / restructure guys and push the cap hits out further.

Carroll and Bill Walsh are probably the most successful of the college->NFL coaches, but they had spent most of their careers as pro assistants. Is there a modern example of a college coach with little to no pro experience succeeding in the NFL?
Depends on how you define "modern", but since 2000 Meyer is only the fifth HC hire to have zero NFL coaching experience, and the jury's still out Kingsbury, the most recent. Rhule (also jury's out) was just an assistant; Jim Harbaugh and Schiano had just been positional; everyone else had at least a coordinator gig at one point. So the sample's so small, I don't think we can reasonably compare Meyer to anyone.

I only read about it yesterday. I was curious what was going on as well, looked up a couple of articles that lead to his wikipedia page. That section under Controversies is loooong. I think 10 years ago, he gets a HC job and nobody cares. Now? It's a different world. That incident in the parking garage is looked upon with disgust instead of being waived off as "boys will be boys".
OTOH, Urban Meyer got suspended for covering up spousal abuse on the part of one of his assistant coaches, and he had no trouble getting work.
 

Zincman

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
433
New London
I think the reset is going to more complicated than that. They are in a tough spot with those contracts where cutting or trading is not going to save much money. I expect they will mostly extend / restructure guys and push the cap hits out further.


Depends on how you define "modern", but since 2000 Meyer is only the fifth HC hire to have zero NFL coaching experience, and the jury's still out Kingsbury, the most recent. Rhule (also jury's out) was just an assistant; Jim Harbaugh and Schiano had just been positional; everyone else had at least a coordinator gig at one point. So the sample's so small, I don't think we can reasonably compare Meyer to anyone.


OTOH, Urban Meyer got suspended for covering up spousal abuse on the part of one of his assistant coaches, and he had no trouble getting work.
Interesting moral equivalency
 

Zincman

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
433
New London
Bieniemy rap sheet

1. 1988 arrest in a racially charged bar fight-community service
2. 1989 a series of MV violations ending in a speeding arrest-later arrested for failure to appear
3. 1990 shoved a firefighter who had come to put out a fire at his mom's house. 8 month suspended sentence with added stipulations the Bieniemy failed to appear for
4. On September 27, 1993, Bieniemy was arrested in Boulder, Colorado for allegedly harassing a female parking attendant. According to the police report, "Bieniemy was with five friends in a parking lot when he allegedly approached a lot attendant from behind and grabbed her by the neck. The victim told police the contact was not painful, but it startled her. She said the man also made comments while holding her about 'about 'a bunch of black males all at once being her worst nightmare.'" Then Bieniemy and his friends allegedly took off their pants and began urinating nearby. One of his friends, Calvin Lucas Graham, was arrested for hitting a witness during the incident and investigated for intimidating a witness. Bieniemy was also named in an outstanding warrant on a charge of driving with a suspended license. As a result of this incident, Bieniemy was banned from the University of Colorado Boulder campus for one year.
5.In April 2001, Bieniemy was arrested for driving under the influence and was docked a month's pay.[
6.From 2001 to 2002, Bieniemy had a long-running rift with injury-prone Colorado five star recruit Marcus Houston. Bieniemy questioned Houston's "willingness to play hurt" and demeaned Houston's manhood, calling him "Markeesha" in practices. In light of these circumstances, NCAA waived its rule requiring players to sit out a season after transferring and Houston transferred to Colorado State University in 2003.

Its been 20 years since his last arrest and perhaps things have changed for him. I believe in rehabilitating one's life but I do understand reluctance in hiring someone to lead your your organization who has had a checkered past no matter how long ago. An owner who is considering Bieniemy has to have a moral consideration in his deliberations. And due diligence into Bieniemy's last 20 years may show a man who has escaped his past. I don't know but it doesn't seem simple to me.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,487
Santa Monica, CA
Didn't know about his history. Some of that could be considered ancient history and happened when he was basically a kid, but stuff you do when you're well out of college is certainly fair game.

I've thought of him as a risky candidate for a HC gig simply because his success has come under an offensive minded head coach, with an incredible array of talent at his disposal. I have no idea how much he brings to the table.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,368
Spanos saves thousands since no relocation costs involved for Staley.
 

trekfan55

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 29, 2004
11,587
Panama
Barry Switzer and Jimmy Johnson are two off the top my head.
Does Barry Switzer really count? He came in to coach the Cowboys after Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones had a falling out because Jones said Johnsin did not deserve that much credirt

They added Deion Sanders plus a bit more talent after losing the NFCCG vs a super loaded 49ers team.

Won a Super Bowl where Neal O'Donell (credit to Cowher for getting to a Super Bowl with O;Donell as QB) threw 2 easy INT to MVP Larry Brown.

The Cowboys started to decline shortly thereafter.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,620
Does Barry Switzer really count? He came in to coach the Cowboys after Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones had a falling out because Jones said Johnsin did not deserve that much credirt

They added Deion Sanders plus a bit more talent after losing the NFCCG vs a super loaded 49ers team.

Won a Super Bowl where Neal O'Donell (credit to Cowher for getting to a Super Bowl with O;Donell as QB) threw 2 easy INT to MVP Larry Brown.

The Cowboys started to decline shortly thereafter.
I dont consider him for the reasons you state
 

vadertime

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
1,600
Rhode Island
Does Barry Switzer really count? He came in to coach the Cowboys after Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones had a falling out because Jones said Johnsin did not deserve that much credirt

They added Deion Sanders plus a bit more talent after losing the NFCCG vs a super loaded 49ers team.

Won a Super Bowl where Neal O'Donell (credit to Cowher for getting to a Super Bowl with O;Donell as QB) threw 2 easy INT to MVP Larry Brown.

The Cowboys started to decline shortly thereafter.
For the purposes of the question of gong straight to college from the pros and having success, I would say.
3 division titles in 4 years
2 Conference Championship appearances in those 3
1 Super Bowl win in those 2.
40-24 record in those 4 years.
I'd like to think at least 3/4 of the league would love to have a 4 year run like that.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,769
Hartford, CT
Schrager showering the public with Kool Aid here, this isn’t the Seahawks hiring Holmgren or the NYJ hiring Parcells or something. Chill out, bro.
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
8,548
KPWT
Two former Dayton QBs in the AFC West. Nice.

Bieniemy certainly has the resume for a job, considering the last two guys who held his job got HC gigs and he has done better in the job than they did. If there are concerns about Bieniemy's past that are holding him back, I don't think it is the legal issues from when he was under 25. I think it might be that he was part of the Gary Barnett staff that got blown out of Colorado amidst a series of rapes and allegations of sexual assault and other awful behavior by the football team. I wonder if NFL types know more about those stories than the media has reported recently and owners are afraid that some of that would break shortly after hiring Bieniemy.

Of course, that doesn't explain why someone like Todd Bowles or Byron Leftwich can't get a HC gig.
 

5050HindSight

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,390
Upstate NY
Slight nitpick with this graph (not the OP) ... I've been looking at a lot of draft related stuff recently and when I saw this posted the other day something didn't seem right to me. I dug a little deeper and this graph:

1. Uses a draft pick value chart that gives much more value to later round picks than I think makes sense (I'll explain below), and
2. Doesn't seem to factor in projected comp picks.

The draft chart he uses in this graph is one that assigns value to picks based on their post-rookie contracts and seems to value quantity over quality. In other words, I think it attempts to give value to the type of production you can expect from a given slot, on average. And while that's an interesting way to look at the draft, I think the better way to value an organization's draft resources, would be to use the trade value chart: how teams actually value those draft picks. (Or maybe a blend of the two is best?)

So if you are comparing Houston and New Orleans, for example, by this measure Houston fairs much better because they have 8 picks to New Orleans' 3, And those Houston picks are worth 49% more than the 3 New Orleans picks, even though 7 of the Houston picks are on day 3. Put it this way, the chart he's using values Houston's 3 picks in round 6 and 1 pick in round 7 more than New Orleans' 1st round pick. If you use the more standard Rich Hill draft chart, the Houston picks are worth about 44% LESS than the Saints' picks.

And that doesn't even take into account that the Saints are projected to have two 3rd round comp picks (Houston doesn't project to have a comp pick). Similarly the Patriots draft value should go up with their 3rd round comp pick, and 2 projected 4th round comp picks.

As for the cap space... yeah, that's definitely not good for the Saints!
 

trekfan55

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 29, 2004
11,587
Panama
For the purposes of the question of gong straight to college from the pros and having success, I would say.
3 division titles in 4 years
2 Conference Championship appearances in those 3
1 Super Bowl win in those 2.
40-24 record in those 4 years.
I'd like to think at least 3/4 of the league would love to have a 4 year run like that.
Nit arguing with the bolded.

But either Jerry Jones was right and it wasn't all Jimmy Johnson or if you land a decent coach on that absolutely loaded team they would definitely excel. My argument is not that the results weren't good, they just are not proof that a good College coach translates well into the pros.

BTW I think Jim Harbaugh is a good example. True that he played and did some coaching in the NFL but he came from College into a Niners team that was in the cellar and took it to 3 NFCCG and one Super Bowl. He was also one play away from winning both NFCCGs and the Super Bowl.
 

Zincman

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
433
New London
Predicting that anyone with no head coaching experience is going to be a great head coach is sheer folly. I spent a lifetime in education watching some of the best classroom teachers become absolutely awful administrators. Why? Because they require entirely different skill sets as today's administrators are only tangentially related to actual teaching. My sense is that this is also true with coaches who have never been in charge of an entire program. Some, like BB, possess both skill sets but there is no way of knowing if a successful OC or DC can make the transition to head coach.

Making the transition from college HC to NFL HC is a different discussion.
 

lostjumper

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 27, 2009
1,277
Concord, NH
Of course, that doesn't explain why someone like Todd Bowles or Byron Leftwich can't get a HC gig.
Leftwich has only been coaching for 4 years. He was QB coach for Arizona from 2017-2018, and OC of the Bucs for 2019-now. So this is his 4th year of coaching. I think he will get a look soon, but most head coaches take much longer before they get their first look. For instance, Todd Bowles started coach in 1997.
Speaking of Bowles he was the head coach of the Jets from 2015-2018. It went...poorly. I think that reflects as much on the Jets as it does him however. If his defense on the Bucs continues to play like it did last night, I expect he'll get another shot at a head coaching gig.
 

Mugsy's Jock

Eli apologist
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2000
15,069
UWS, NYC
Saw that Daboll expects to stay as OC in Buffalo now that he didn't get the HC spot for the Chargers. Would he consider a Patriots homecoming if Josh vacated OC to go to Philadelphia? Would he be allowed to?
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,769
Hartford, CT
Saw that Daboll expects to stay as OC in Buffalo now that he didn't get the HC spot for the Chargers. Would he consider a Patriots homecoming if Josh vacated OC to go to Philadelphia? Would he be allowed to?
No way Buffalo would let him out of that contract, and a team can certainly block attempts by other teams to even interview lateral hires.

I’m doubtful Daboll would want the job anyways. He is the man in Buffalo with a good, young QB to steer his offense, and what does he stand to gain by returning to NE? It would be a lateral move that could hurt him in that he wouldn’t enjoy the same autonomy he does in BUF and perhaps not what McDaniels has enjoyed in NE.

His next job will be a head coaching position, absent getting fired someday.
 

lostjumper

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 27, 2009
1,277
Concord, NH
Speaking of Bowles he was the head coach of the Jets from 2015-2018. It went...poorly. I think that reflects as much on the Jets as it does him however. If his defense on the Bucs continues to play like it did last night, I expect he'll get another shot at a head coaching gig.
Bowles is apparently interviewing for the Eagles job.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
The Bears are hemorrhaging coaches now. Arthur Smith is tapping Bears' passing game coordinator Dave Ragone as OC, RB coach Charles London as QB coach.

And Jay Rodgers, a highly respected D-Line coach who was getting buzz as an internal DC candidate, is headed to the Chargers for an undisclosed role.

This is the price a team pays for not acting decisively. Guys with options are going to jump to a more stable situation and it's going to be really hard to replace them when everyone knows you have treat the Bears as a one-year proposition.
 

m0ckduck

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,714
View: https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1350544144494714882


DET is hiring Dan Campbell, probably becomes official tonight or tomorrow
He looks like a D guy but he's pretty much just coached tight ends AFAIK.
Here's his plan for the franchise— watch your knees!

View: https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/30753733

"When you punch us back, we're going to smile at you. And when you knock us down, we're going to get up.... on the way back up, we're going to bite a kneecap off. Alright? And then we're going to stand up. It's going to take two more shots to knock us down, alright? And on the way up, we're going to take your other kneecap."
 
Last edited:

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
Saw that Daboll expects to stay as OC in Buffalo now that he didn't get the HC spot for the Chargers. Would he consider a Patriots homecoming if Josh vacated OC to go to Philadelphia? Would he be allowed to?
Pats OC will not be a plum job if McDaniels leaves. Below-average talent, below-average autonomy, and while coaching under the GOAT counts for something, it counts for less than it would if BB’s coaching tree were more robust.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Pats OC will not be a plum job if McDaniels leaves. Below-average talent, below-average autonomy, and while coaching under the GOAT counts for something, it counts for less than it would if BB’s coaching tree were more robust.
As to the last part: No, BB assistants haven't generally gone on to great success as head coaches, and yet....they keep getting hired anyway. One after the other after the other.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,751
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
As to the last part: No, BB assistants haven't generally gone on to great success as head coaches, and yet....they keep getting hired anyway. One after the other after the other.
Sure, but the Patriots kept having great success even while their former coaches failed elsewhere. If they tread water for a couple of years do you think proximity to Bill is going to be that strong of a factor to give guys consideration? If Josh leaves and they hire a new OC, will he get HC opportunities if he gets mediocre production out of mediocre talent? I don't think so.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,093
Here's his plan for the franchise— watch your knees!

View: https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/30753733

"When you punch us back, we're going to smile at you. And when you knock us down, we're going to get up.... on the way back up, we're going to bite a kneecap off. Alright? And then we're going to stand up. It's going to take two more shots to knock us down, alright? And on the way up, we're going to take your other kneecap."
That is an Adam Gase level immediate red flag. This clown won’t last more than 2-3 years.