2021 MLB Awards

Daniel_Son

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May 25, 2021
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I think Vlad has a pretty decent shot at the AL MVP over Ohtani. Leads the league in hits, runs, OBP, slugging, OPS, OPS+, and total bases. Recency bias might also play a factor - Ohtani's slashing .196/.386/.392 over his last 30 games, vs. Vlad's .322/.394/.619. Plus the fact that Vlad is playing meaningful games right now (not that I necessarily agree with that playing a factor).
 

E5 Yaz

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I think Vlad has a pretty decent shot at the AL MVP over Ohtani. Leads the league in hits, runs, OBP, slugging, OPS, OPS+, and total bases. Recency bias might also play a factor - Ohtani's slashing .196/.386/.392 over his last 30 games, vs. Vlad's .322/.394/.619. Plus the fact that Vlad is playing meaningful games right now (not that I necessarily agree with that playing a factor).
Good point ... but you didn't factor in the comparison to Vlad's season as a pitcher
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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Vlad has been amazing but he's got no shot against Ohtani. E5Yaz is right - Ohtani not only was a phenomenal position player and hitter, the guy was also a tremendous pitcher this year too. We haven't seen this literally since Babe Ruth.
 

Daniel_Son

lurker
May 25, 2021
110
San Diego
Fair enough. I don't necessarily disagree with him winning - the guy's having an absolutely historic season, but Ohtani wasn't the best position play or the best pitcher in his league this season. Vlad is, no question, the best offensive player in the league.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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Fair enough. I don't necessarily disagree with him winning - the guy's having an absolutely historic season, but Ohtani wasn't the best position play or the best pitcher in his league this season. Vlad is, no question, the best offensive player in the league.
He’s not as good a hitter as Vlad. And not as good a pitcher as Ray. But he’s still a great hitter who also happens to be a great pitcher.

He’s been worth nearly two bWAR more than Vlad this year.
 

Kliq

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Law makes a good point in the sense that ROY should be aimed at identifying the next Mike Trout, not the next 28 year old that had a good season. Adolis has a remarkable story breaking out this year, but is the kind of guy the spirit of the award doesn't really endorse. Franco has been basically as good as Garcia, in half-the-time, and looks like the next superstar.

Ohtani is stretching the limits of the game. It's almost like he is playing too different sports when you factor in the athleticism required to be an elite hitter and a pitcher. In today's world of hyper-specialization, it's insane. He might win the MVP if he was just average at both positions; the fact that he is near-MVP level as a hitter and an All-Star level pitcher is insane and cannot be talked about enough.
 

djbayko

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Fair enough. I don't necessarily disagree with him winning - the guy's having an absolutely historic season, but Ohtani wasn't the best position play or the best pitcher in his league this season. Vlad is, no question, the best offensive player in the league.
What he's doing is historic. Even if Vlad had managed to win the triple crown, what Ohtani has done still would have been way more historic. Not awarding him MVP this year would be criminal.
 

dynomite

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What he's doing is historic. Even if Vlad had managed to win the triple crown, what Ohtani has done still would have been way more historic. Not awarding him MVP this year would be criminal.
Exactly.

Im not sure we are fully appreciating this because it’s happening right now and on an anonymous team that’s been irrelevant since May but Ohtani’s 2021 is up there with the greatest individual years in the sport: Bonds’ 2001, Pedro’s 2000, etc.

We have never seen anyone do what he is doing, and given the uncertainty of injuries and the difficulty of throwing and hitting a baseball, we may never see it again.
 

Kliq

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It's a pure hypothetical but I'd be interested in seeing what kind of WAR Ohtani would have if he wasn't DH'ing and instead playing RF every day. Could he play a decent RF and still be the same as a hitter/pitcher? How much would it take off of him not being able to rest?
 

djbayko

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Exactly.

Im not sure we are fully appreciating this because it’s happening right now and on an anonymous team that’s been irrelevant since May but Ohtani’s 2021 is up there with the greatest individual years in the sport: Bonds’ 2001, Pedro’s 2000, etc.

We have never seen anyone do what he is doing, and given the uncertainty of injuries and the difficulty of throwing and hitting a baseball, we may never see it again.
I imagine that it may be done again, simply because that seems to be how athletic feats work. Someone breaks a barrier and shows everyone else it's possible. Maybe it will be a while as we have to wait for current T-ball players to develop within this mindset, but it's much more likely to happen now than it was last year.
 

Max Power

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Im not sure we are fully appreciating this because it’s happening right now and on an anonymous team that’s been irrelevant since May but Ohtani’s 2021 is up there with the greatest individual years in the sport: Bonds’ 2001, Pedro’s 2000, etc.
Its hard to compare to that. Bonds and Pedro were by far the best hitter and pitcher in the league in their historic seasons. Ohtani isn't the best hitter or the best pitcher in the league. He doesn't hit for the most power, get on base the most, steal the most bases, have the lowest ERA, or strike out the most batters. He's very good to great at everything except putting the ball in play, but he isn't the best at any one thing.
 

dynomite

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I imagine that it may be done again, simply because that seems to be how athletic feats work. Someone breaks a barrier and shows everyone else it's possible. Maybe it will be a while as we have to wait for current T-ball players to develop within this mindset, but it's much more likely to happen now than it was last year.
Maybe. I agree that it’s possible but I think of this a little like Bo Jackson and Neon Deion Sanders playing both in the NFL and MLB simultaneously. It’s certainly possible that someone could pull that off again too, but as time passes these things seem even more incredible.

Its hard to compare to that. Bonds and Pedro were by far the best hitter and pitcher in the league in their historic seasons. Ohtani isn't the best hitter or the best pitcher in the league. He doesn't hit for the most power, get on base the most, steal the most bases, have the lowest ERA, or strike out the most batters. He's very good to great at everything except putting the ball in play, but he isn't the best at any one thing.
Right, I get that, it’s a different thing, but being Top … 5? Or Top 10? at almost everything in this sport isn’t supposed to be possible.

If we agree that the greatest individual season possible would be being Bonds at the plate and Pedro on the mound, think about how much closer Ohtani has come to it than we ever thought possible. To be clear, I’m not saying he’s near their equal, I’m just saying a staff ace hitting 45 HR was not something I thought was possible.
 

E5 Yaz

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Posted this in another thread, but can Ray cement the CYA tonight?
 

Ford Frick's Asterisk

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It already has to be Ray's to lose and it would have to be an embarrassing meltdown for him to do that. Cole is probably second – and that's a pretty distant second, especially since he's having his worst season in 4 years.
 

jose melendez

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The Nats broadcast was talking about how there should be some MVP chants for Soto. I knew he'd been good this year, I watch a lot of NAts. had no idea he'd been this good this year. 7.3 WAR
 

Kliq

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The Nats broadcast was talking about how there should be some MVP chants for Soto. I knew he'd been good this year, I watch a lot of NAts. had no idea he'd been this good this year. 7.3 WAR
He's had a monster second half where he had been an impossible out thanks to his incredible batting eye and typical hitting prowess. He might be the most unheralded star in baseball, he's as good as anyone and still just a baby.

The NL MVP race is really good. Harper, Soto and Tatis feel like the favorites and all have a good case.
 

VORP Speed

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Law makes a good point in the sense that ROY should be aimed at identifying the next Mike Trout, not the next 28 year old that had a good season. Adolis has a remarkable story breaking out this year, but is the kind of guy the spirit of the award doesn't really endorse. Franco has been basically as good as Garcia, in half-the-time, and looks like the next superstar.
Franco and Arozarena should be 1-2 in ROY
 

Ford Frick's Asterisk

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ESPN needs to fix their predictor then... I'm not sure either Iglesias or Hendricks is better than Emmanuel Clase, and Clase probably won't finish higher than 3rd for Rookie of the Year, never mind the Cy Young. For the record, Clase has allowed 1 earned run in his last 31 appearances while holding opponents to a .144/.159/.171 line.
 

CaptainLaddie

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The NL CYA race is pretty interesting. Scherzer should *probably* win, but he's "only" thrown 179.1 innings. Wainwright has more wins, a higher ERA, less Ks, but also has thrown almost 20 more innings. Similarly, there's Walker Buehler, who's been lights out, has thrown more innings than Scherzer, and has only a very slightly higher ERA. Wheeler won't win it bc he's on a team that won't make the playoffs, but he's got almost two more WAR than Scherzer. Burnes has 2.1 more WAR than Scherzer, has thrown only 165 innings -- but has a higher K/9, lower BB/9, and WAY lower HR/9 than Scherzer (and a higher WHIP than Scherzer).

Gun to my head, it's Max. But Burnes, Buehler, Urias (19-3 record), and Wainwright will all make some noise. The nearest CYA race I can remember in recent memory is when Brandon Webb won it. There were a bunch of other reasonable candidates that year -- Carpenter, Oswalt, Smoltz (and a few closers). Harang and Arroyo didn't even get any votes and they were both really good too.
 

djbayko

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I'm preemptively hating on Otani because he'll be in MFY pinstripes in 2 more years.
So screw that guy!!!
Perhaps. But I feel like this guy is a bigger future injury risk than your average player exactly because of what he’s doing, so even if they do sign him, we potentially have that to hope for.
 

B H Kim

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The NL CYA race is pretty interesting. Scherzer should *probably* win, but he's "only" thrown 179.1 innings. Wainwright has more wins, a higher ERA, less Ks, but also has thrown almost 20 more innings. Similarly, there's Walker Buehler, who's been lights out, has thrown more innings than Scherzer, and has only a very slightly higher ERA. Wheeler won't win it bc he's on a team that won't make the playoffs, but he's got almost two more WAR than Scherzer. Burnes has 2.1 more WAR than Scherzer, has thrown only 165 innings -- but has a higher K/9, lower BB/9, and WAY lower HR/9 than Scherzer (and a higher WHIP than Scherzer).

Gun to my head, it's Max. But Burnes, Buehler, Urias (19-3 record), and Wainwright will all make some noise. The nearest CYA race I can remember in recent memory is when Brandon Webb won it. There were a bunch of other reasonable candidates that year -- Carpenter, Oswalt, Smoltz (and a few closers). Harang and Arroyo didn't even get any votes and they were both really good too.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone argue that the Cy Young winner’s team has to make the playoffs. The Mets didn’t make the playoffs in either of deGrom’s Cy Young seasons. Wheeler may not win, but I don’t think the voters are going to hold the Phillies’ finish against him.
 

axx

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ESPN needs to fix their predictor then... I'm not sure either Iglesias or Hendricks is better than Emmanuel Clase, and Clase probably won't finish higher than 3rd for Rookie of the Year, never mind the Cy Young. For the record, Clase has allowed 1 earned run in his last 31 appearances while holding opponents to a .144/.159/.171 line.
It's the rate counts. Hendricks is 8-3 to go along with his 38 saves and 113 Ks. That's what's causing it.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
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Sep 6, 2004
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I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone argue that the Cy Young winner’s team has to make the playoffs. The Mets didn’t make the playoffs in either of deGrom’s Cy Young seasons. Wheeler may not win, but I don’t think the voters are going to hold the Phillies’ finish against him.
deGrom had some all-time great years, that's the difference. Wheeler has been excellent, but not historically so.
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
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Let's do polls!! I'll do one or two a day for each of the major awards.
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
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Gold Glove finalists are out. Renfroe is the only Sox player on the list. Benintendi is on there for KC.
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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Gold Glove finalists are out. Renfroe is the only Sox player on the list. Benintendi is on there for KC.
Renfroe 0 DRS in RF in 1166 innings but a lot of highlight reel throws, Hernandez 14 DRS in center field in only 716 innings but not a ton of highlight plays, he just made everything look pretty easy.

So dumb that managers and coaches still vote for gold gloves.
 

E5 Yaz

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Gold Glove finalists are out. Renfroe is the only Sox player on the list. Benintendi is on there for KC.
PITCHER
José Berríos, Blue Jays
Zack Greinke, Astros
Dallas Keuchel, White Sox
CATCHER
Martín Maldonado, Astros
Sean Murphy, A's
Salvador Perez, Royals
FIRST BASE
Yuli Gurriel, Astros
Matt Olson, A's
Jared Walsh, Angels
SECOND BASE
David Fletcher, Angels
Whit Merrifield, Royals
Marcus Semien, Blue Jays
THIRD BASE
Matt Chapman, A's
José Ramírez, Indians
Joey Wendle, Rays
SHORTSTOP
Carlos Correa, Astros
J.P. Crawford, Mariners
Andrelton Simmons, Twins
LEFT FIELD
Randy Arozarena, Rays
Andrew Benintendi, Royals
Lourdes Gurriel Jr., Blue Jays
CENTER FIELD
Kevin Kiermaier, Rays
Myles Straw, Indians
Michael A. Taylor, Royals
RIGHT FIELD
Hunter Renfroe, Red Sox
Kyle Tucker, Astros
Joey Gallo, Yankees

PITCHER
Zach Davies, Cubs
Max Fried, Braves
Zack Wheeler, Phillies
CATCHER
Yadier Molina, Cardinals
J.T. Realmuto, Phillies
Jacob Stallings, Pirates
FIRST BASE
Freddie Freeman, Braves
Paul Goldschmidt, Cardinals
Max Muncy, Dodgers
SECOND BASE
Ozzie Albies, Braves
Tommy Edman, Cardinals
Kolten Wong, Brewers
THIRD BASE
Nolan Arenado, Cardinals
Manny Machado, Padres
Ryan McMahon, Rockies
SHORTSTOP
Brandon Crawford, Giants
Francisco Lindor, Mets
Kevin Newman, Pirates
LEFT FIELD
Tyler O'Neill, Cardinals
David Peralta, D-backs
AJ Pollock, Dodgers
CENTER FIELD
Harrison Bader, Cardinals
Bryan Reynolds, Pirates
Jackie Bradley Jr., Brewers
RIGHT FIELD
Mookie Betts, Dodgers
Adam Duvall, Braves
Mike Yastrzemski, Giants
 

Kliq

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JBJ, just another case of a guy getting the gold glove thanks to his bat.
 

Catcher Block

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Ironically, of all 6 of their nominees, the Cardinals' two historically great defensive players (Molina and Arenado) are probably least likely to win at their positions. Those should be Stallings and McMahon at C and 3B, respectively.

O'Neill and Goldschmidt seem like locks for St. Louis with Bader not far behind. Edman just happy to be nominated.
 

LogansDad

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Gold Gloves announced:

American League
C: Sean Murphy (A's)
1B: Yuli Gurriel (Astros)
2B: Marcus Semien (Blue Jays)
3B: Matt Chapman (A's)
SS: Carlos Correa (Astros)
LF: Andrew Benintendi (Royals)
CF: Michael A. Taylor (Royals)
RF: Joey Gallo (Yankees)
P: Dallas Keuchel (White Sox)


Meanwhile, the Cardinals won all of the NL Awards (not really, but more than half)

National League
C: Jacob Stallings (Pirates)
1B: Paul Goldschmidt (Cardinals)
2B: Tommy Edman (Cardinals)
3B: Nolan Arenado (Cardinals)
SS: Brandon Crawford (Giants)
LF: Tyler O'Neill (Cardinals)
CF: Harrison Bader (Cardinals)
RF: Adam Duvall (Braves)
P: Max Fried (Braves)
 

Marciano490

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Nov 4, 2007
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Gold Gloves announced:

Meanwhile, the Cardinals won all of the NL Awards (not really, but more than half)

National League
C: Jacob Stallings (Pirates)
1B: Paul Goldschmidt (Cardinals)
2B: Tommy Edman (Cardinals)
3B: Nolan Arenado (Cardinals)
SS: Brandon Crawford (Giants)
LF: Tyler O'Neill (Cardinals)
CF: Harrison Bader (Cardinals)
RF: Adam Duvall (Braves)
P: Max Fried (Braves)
Subtle Paul DeJong trolling.