2021-22 NBA Off-season Thread

Fishy1

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
3,868
I have a very hard time believing that team stays healthy throughout the regular season, even with all the load management.
I mean, the Nash-Bryant-Howard Lakers were way younger than this team is. Nash was the elder statesman there at 38, Howard was only 27, and Bryant was 34. All those guys are also just way worse players than Lebron, but nonetheless, all the concerns about health go the same for age-related declines in quality of play. There's blow-out potential up and down the roster.

There's five guys on that roster on the wrong side of 35, one who's about to turn 35 in Rondo, and Westbrook, who's always both been durable and looked like a human knee-injury-waiting-to-happen. He's about to turn 33, which by itself isn't the end of the world, but for a guy with that many miles on his tires, and with the effort he puts in -- there's definitely some cause for concern. And Jordan, who's turning 33, but has looked like he turned 40 for a couple years now.

If Westbrook, Lebron, and Davis can all stay on the floor, I think they'll be great, and I think there's a good likelihood of that. And the rest could all hold off Father Time for one more year. Lebron has always seemed invincible until the last couple years, and he may have a few more great years in him. But Gasol, Ariza, Rondo, Carmelo, Jordan... I wouldn't have much faith in those guys being productive for much longer.
 

Buster Olney the Lonely

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2006
3,793
Atlanta, GA
Minor correction. Rondo will turn 36 this season.

I’m fascinated by the Lakers this year and not just because of the age thing. Mostly interested in the Westbrook- LeBron dynamic. We’ve seen Russ play a less ball dominant role with Houston so we know it’s possible. Do we see the same with the Lakers?

I think they’ll be very good but not enough to pick the over 52.5.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
7,855
NYC
I’m not even sure I’d pick the over on 47.5. The West is going to be as brutal as ever. The Lakers last year were crap on offense and great on D; and I worry they may have tanked their D by trading in the youth, length, and defensive versatility of Caruso, KCP, and Kuzma (their #7, 3 and 2 rotation players, respectively) to load up on ever more partially-washed name brands. And with so many new bodies coming in they’re gonna need to figure out some fairly complex chemistry issues on the fly.

As always with LeBron’s teams, they’ll go as far as he takes them; but he’s now 37 and not quite as indestructible as he once was. If he misses more than like 20 games, I could easily them getting bounced in the play-in round, as they almost did last year.

52-53 wins seems like a highly optimistic case to me, and absurdly high as an O/U, but what do I know…
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,227
Woj reporting that NBA won’t be imposing vaccination for players. Supposedly, NBAPA is not on board and contesting. Same article states roughly 85% of players are vaccinated.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,790
Woj reporting that NBA won’t be imposing vaccination for players. Supposedly, NBAPA is not on board and contesting. Same article states roughly 85% of players are vaccinated.
Do we have any other unvaccinated players aside from Schroeder? If the NBA is committed to making this as difficult on the teams and players as the NFL this could be a problem for us.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,227
Do we have any other unvaccinated players aside from Schroeder? If the NBA is committed to making this as difficult on the teams and players as the NFL this could be a problem for us.
Not that I'm aware of but agree that the NBA's strict protocol for unvaccinated players could be a real differentiating factor for some teams. I'd be curious to know about why the NBAPA was against it if 85% of the members are already vaccinated. Guessing its a bargaining chip but figured that would be one that you would want to give on in lieu of something else.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
49,346
Rotten Apple
We have a clarification.
View: https://twitter.com/KyrieIrving/status/1438287856703737857

“Mask off” means You stop being something you’re not and stop lying to yourself. It’s the moment you discover the real you and can walk around with NO FEAR in a society that shows a lot of the masks people wear to hide who they truly are. *nothing COVID rule related!! Relax

Also, there are a few Kyrie trade rumors and other rumors that say Kyrie will retire if traded.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,263
Kyrie is either keenly aware of how misleading tweeting "masks off" is or he is incredibly dumb. Neither would be surprising.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,792
Tom Moore of the Bucks County Courier Times in Philadelphia reporting (i) the Sixers are no longer planning on making a deal for Simmons because they can't get a replacement player they like and (ii) plan on forcing Simmons to show up to camp by fining him $300K a day if he doesn't.

That should work out well.

I suppose Simmons will come down with a nagging, soft-tissue injury within hours of the start of training camp.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nba/nba-2021-dante-exum-houston-rockets-deal-cleveland-cavaliers-trade-deals-australian-boomers-video-patty-mills/news-story/7d520d7c6e66058f0855951a6eff8ba6?recommendedCount=0
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,878
Tom Moore of the Bucks County Courier Times in Philadelphia reporting (i) the Sixers are no longer planning on making a deal for Simmons because they can't get a replacement player they like and (ii) plan on forcing Simmons to show up to camp by fining him $300K a day if he doesn't.

That should work out well.

I suppose Simmons will come down with a nagging, soft-tissue injury within hours of the start of training camp.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nba/nba-2021-dante-exum-houston-rockets-deal-cleveland-cavaliers-trade-deals-australian-boomers-video-patty-mills/news-story/7d520d7c6e66058f0855951a6eff8ba6?recommendedCount=0
Sounds like a call to other teams to up their offers. If Simmons truly wants out, players like that almost always get their wish.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,792
Sounds like a call to other teams to up their offers. If Simmons truly wants out, players like that almost always get their wish.
Does threatening to force a player to attend camp through potential $300K fines cause other teams to up their offer or just continue waiting as the threat only further alienates the player?

Seems to me that PHI is just losing more and more leverage every day but what do I know?
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
25,604
I am not sure Morey has played this right....but I also don't know that he's really losing any additional leverage here. Seems like he decided there wasn't enough value available over the summer and he's waiting/hoping that Dame, Beal, or someone else will decide they want out---that may not happen, but if you don't like the value available over the summer I can't blame him for waiting and seeing whetehr things improve for the trade market. Saw the other day they broke out the Scott Boras-patented "mystery team" notion via Windhorst.

I also think Simmons is good enough that deals will be available when Philly decides they need to make the move---this is not a case where you really shrink the set of available acquirers once you lock in rosters or anything like that.

We'll see---it's a tough situation for all concerned
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
12,962
I'm fully on Team Morey here. He doesn't have to dump Simmons for a couple of pesos on the dollar, and he does have room to wait as well. The way to lose leverage is to convince yourself and everyone else that a deal has to be made by the start of training camp, or else. Conventional wisdom is not always correct. Klutch isn't dealing with a rookie GM fighting for his job.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,878
Does threatening to force a player to attend camp through potential $300K fines cause other teams to up their offer or just continue waiting as the threat only further alienates the player?

Seems to me that PHI is just losing more and more leverage every day but what do I know?
I think you're right -- if a player truly wants to get traded, the team generally has little leverage. They are making it seem like they intend to bring him back to get as much in return as possible, and are trying to avoid a Harden situation.
 
Last edited:

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,500
I am not sure Morey has played this right....but I also don't know that he's really losing any additional leverage here. Seems like he decided there wasn't enough value available over the summer and he's waiting/hoping that Dame, Beal, or someone else will decide they want out---that may not happen, but if you don't like the value available over the summer I can't blame him for waiting and seeing whetehr things improve for the trade market. Saw the other day they broke out the Scott Boras-patented "mystery team" notion via Windhorst.

I also think Simmons is good enough that deals will be available when Philly decides they need to make the move---this is not a case where you really shrink the set of available acquirers once you lock in rosters or anything like that.

We'll see---it's a tough situation for all concerned
I'm fully on Team Morey here. He doesn't have to dump Simmons for a couple of pesos on the dollar, and he does have room to wait as well. The way to lose leverage is to convince yourself and everyone else that a deal has to be made by the start of training camp, or else. Conventional wisdom is not always correct. Klutch isn't dealing with a rookie GM fighting for his job.

It's not really about leverage though. If they refuse to trade Simmons, other players around the league will take note and refuse to play for Philly. You can't hold players ransom in the NBA.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
12,962
It's not really about leverage though. If they refuse to trade Simmons, other players around the league will take note and refuse to play for Philly. You can't hold players ransom in the NBA.
Simmons signed a contract; nobody is being held for ransom. He will eventually get traded, and players will act in their own self interest, not in the interest of Simmons. Embiid probably could care less.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,792
I'm fully on Team Morey here. He doesn't have to dump Simmons for a couple of pesos on the dollar, and he does have room to wait as well. The way to lose leverage is to convince yourself and everyone else that a deal has to be made by the start of training camp, or else. Conventional wisdom is not always correct. Klutch isn't dealing with a rookie GM fighting for his job.
I'm on Team Morey too but is he really going to get more the longer he waits? I guess there's a possibility that Beal doesn't immediately sign his extension and then WAS panics but it seems to me that it's just as likely that Beal doesn't sign his extension and signals he wants to play with Tatum, which means Morey has lost even more leverage.

And if PHI doesn't do well at the start of season - I mean Simmons is a really good regular season player - how long can Morey wait?

Maybe Morey DGAF and has decided that he's going to win this at all costs. It would be great if he could pull it off because players really should have some limitations. Wonder how much collateral damage there will be though.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,500
Simmons signed a contract; nobody is being held for ransom. He will eventually get traded, and players will act in their own self interest, not in the interest of Simmons. Embiid probably could care less.
Name one player who requested a trade and wasn't traded soon after. Players have all the power.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,500
Maybe Morey DGAF and has decided that he's going to win this at all costs. It would be great if he could pull it off because players really should have some limitations. Wonder how much collateral damage there will be though.
I'd love to see it but he'd be setting the franchise back at least a couple seasons. I'd especially love to see the 76ers be the team to try it.

edit: especially with Maxey. Once players on rookie deals can start demanding trades, the NBA is done.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,878
Name one player who requested a trade and wasn't traded soon after. Players have all the power.
Aaron Rodgers?

I think Philly intends to trade Simmons, but the scenario where the team does has leverage is if the offer is so low that you don't really care if you lose it. Pretend the return is one top 15 protected pick and a shitty contract -- at that point I'd take a chance that someone will come along and trump that, and if it lead to an ugly holdout, so be it.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,500
Aaron Rodgers?

I think Philly intends to trade Simmons, but the scenario where the team does has leverage is if the offer is so low that you don't really care if you lose it. Pretend the return is one top 15 protected pick and a shitty contract -- at that point I'd take a chance that someone will come along and trump that, and if it lead to an ugly holdout, so be it.
I meant NBA.

I can't see the offers being that low and I'd imagine Philly would want NBA players rather than picks. I wonder if they are looking for a decent wing in return for Simmons and all the offers are for players like CJ McCollum. I can't see moving a decent wing for him. Would people trade Jerami Grant for Ben Simmons? If you could take one on the C's, which would you take?

Somewhat related: If this offseason doesn't inspire Simmons to start taking 3s in NBA games, nothing will.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,878
I meant NBA.
But the dynamic is the same, right? What's different about the NFL where it could happen there and not in the NBA?


I can't see the offers being that low and I'd imagine Philly would want NBA players rather than picks. I wonder if they are looking for a decent wing in return for Simmons and all the offers are for players like CJ McCollum. I can't see moving a decent wing for him. Would people trade Jerami Grant for Ben Simmons? If you could take one on the C's, which would you take?

Somewhat related: If this offseason doesn't inspire Simmons to start taking 3s in NBA games, nothing will.
I agree -- mine was purely a hypothetical scenario. Unless Simmons declares a "preferred destination" that scares off the rest of the league, multiple teams bidding against each other should produce an offer that is above the threshold.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,792
This article says that PHI owes Ben 1/2 of his contract on October 1 - $16.1M. https://www.sportscasting.com/ben-simmons-make-16-1-million-if-sixers-bungle-trade-value/
Aaron Rodgers?

I think Philly intends to trade Simmons, but the scenario where the team does has leverage is if the offer is so low that you don't really care if you lose it. Pretend the return is one top 15 protected pick and a shitty contract -- at that point I'd take a chance that someone will come along and trump that, and if it lead to an ugly holdout, so be it.
I think CC meant the NBA.

There's enough interest that Morey can get a reasonable return for Simmons. He's not getting a Godfather offer - All-Star player plus control of 4 draft picks. He's overwhelmingly unlikely not to get Dame or Beal. Frankly, he's not going to "win" the trade.

But from all indications, he can get useful players that would probably help PHI over the next couple of years. Which seems to me a whole lot better than pursuing his Great Whale of a trade.
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
Staff member
Dope
Apr 9, 2007
13,596
Washington
Good for Morey. If there isn't a good offer, don't cave. The situation is already terrible, sure, but honestly I think a lot of Philly fans will be more angry if Simmons gets what he wants and the team is screwed with a lousy return. Angry, vengeful sorts, they are.

I don't know how NBA players will see it, but I suspect that most may not hold it against Philly so much given the length of the contract and more importantly, how charmin soft and unprofessional Simmons is. He's talented, but I don't think he is respected the way Harden is.

Edit: I don't think the offers are so great that they won't be there later.

2nd Edit: The opinion they probably care about most is Embiid. Wonder what he really thinks.
 
Last edited:

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
1,051
John Wall+ for Ben Simmons would be an amazing denouement to this all.

Seriously, though, how are they going to trade Wall? Seems like a buyout thing.

Not playing Wall is smart either way in a let's tank way, though. Let the young guys cook.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,878
John Wall+ for Ben Simmons would be an amazing denouement to this all.

Seriously, though, how are they going to trade Wall? Seems like a buyout thing.

Not playing Wall is smart either way in a let's tank way, though. Let the young guys cook.

Yeah, Wall is getting paid almost 47 million next season (as in, 2022-23). Buyout has to be the endgame here.

With the Westbrook off their books, Washington has been able to unload Wall for what looks like a somewhat positive return. Amazing.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
14,969
Somewhere
I feel like we are getting to the point where we might see Simmons moved for a pile of garbage and a boatload of draft picks. There’s still some leverage because a lot of teams have bloated garbage and draft picks beyond Houston/Wall. Off the top of my head there’s Kristaps who has been shopped forever.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,792
Seriously, though, how are they going to trade Wall? Seems like a buyout thing.
Another article I saw said that HOU is not interested in buying out Wall this year. I would guess a large part of this is because without Wall, HOU won't be at the salary floor so any Wall buyout would have to pick up the extra amounts HOU will pay this year and next year. I also think HOU is still holding out hope that they get some kind of asset for Wall.

Good luck with that.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
25,604
Good point on the salary floor, though not quite sure how that plays out in practical terms. I guess the net is that they likely don't save any money this year, right? Whatever comes off the buyout would just have to get redistributed to remaining players to get up to the floor. If that's the case, their position makes sense--might as well wait and see. I wonder if their theory is less a positive asset for Wall than 'something better than eating $47 mil' which is likely some other bad contract but who fits their team a little. Illustratively, Horford or someone like that. Still tough to see for me.

On Simmons, have to imagine Morey knows the offers out there and that at least some of them are not likely to disappear. I don't think his leverage has ever been from a threat that Simmons would stay---instead, it has been (and I think remains) that for any given team his leverage is that a different team is offering more. I don't think that dynamic will really change....though I acknowledge it's a pretty unique situation.
 

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
1,051
My understanding is that the Kobe thing was mutual in 2007, but he had a no trade & refused to go to Detroit. The trade would have been Rip/Prince/Amir/1st.

They reportedly had an agreement with the Bulls for Deng/Tyrus/Ben Gordon/Noah, but Kobe refused to go to Chicago if Deng left, so the trade broke down.

& they also tried to trade him to the Cavs, but the Cavs refused to give up LeBron.

Also, this was 14 years ago, but they definitely tried to honor his wishes at least to some extent.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
25,604
Hakeem is the one guy I can remember where the team just said "no" and stuck to it and it worked out in the end. That was a very different era...
 

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
1,051
Hakeem is the one guy I can remember where the team just said "no" and stuck to it and it worked out in the end. That was a very different era...
Rockets turned down such monster packages of Seikaly/Long/Miner & Kersey/Duckworth/Abdelnaby for him.

Then he suffered a hamstring injury that the Rockets claimed in the press was fake. Then they just went ahead & gave him a big raise so he was getting paid like Admiral & Ewing & everyone lived happily ever after.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
4,243
Imaginationland
Name one player who requested a trade and wasn't traded soon after. Players have all the power.
Name one player who demanded a trade with 4 years left on their contract. If Philly trades him for a below market return then there really is no limit to how early a player can demand a trade, other than perhaps a rookie looking at 7-8 years of control.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
36,011
People are really scraping the bottom of the history barrel to find examples of star players who were held hostage by their clubs. Morey may well decide that having a disgruntled Simmons on his roster and perhaps - if they can smooth things over - the locker room but from the outside, that seems pretty tough. I get that length of contract is a factor but I would also argue that NBA contract length is not just about team control or players locking in income. All of the rules around salaries (e.g. cap, max, length) also drive the durations of contracts.

As such, it really feels as if the league views contracts in terms of asset/liability management (i.e. everything should be viewed as somewhat fungible) versus pure player control.
 

Jimbodandy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
5,723
around the way
Lex has it right above. Morey is a fucking wildcard. Any "player's league" and "yeah but Klutch" takes need to keep that in mind. The man has stared death in the face. Regardless of whether it's the smart thing to so or not, he's not going to roll over.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,263
I think it remains an issue where Simmons is such an unusual player in that teams value him radically differently. Simmons is not Hakeem, or Kobe, or Garnett. He is a massive question mark that makes organizations unsure about what exactly they are getting. He really isn't a "star" player in the traditional sense of the word. It's different than say, Dame Lillard being on the trade block. Teams all know what Dame is and what he can bring to the table, it is just a matter of being willing to pay a big enough price for him. With Simmons there is likely a lot more variance on what he brings, he isn't an established player in the league really at all.