2021-22 NBA In-Season News/Transactions

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Simmons is obviously a better player than Ingram. But Morey would never do better than an Ingram deal IMO.

As an aside, people need to stop referencing Simmons' "upside". Man hasn't developed one iota since entering the league. Maybe he magically learns how to shoot, but it seems unlikely at this point. And he hasn't developed anything else either.
Why is Simmons obviously better? Part of me wants to agree but part of me wonders how much of our opinion is based on him playing for the better team. Ingram has always been on awful teams. Star players on awful teams are usually underrated because some fans have the mentality of "if he was that good, the team would be better than 28-54." Sometimes, that actually is the case but I don't think it is with Ingram.

Ingram is clearly the much better scorer/shooter. Simmons has an edge in rebounding and playmaking but rebounding is often a team thing. Ingram is also a pretty good playmaker himself, though not in the same company as Ben. D is obviously in Ben's favor but Ingram has all the tools to be an elite defender.

And if Ben Simmons has "upside" at 25 y 145 days.... Ingram does too at 24 y, 101 days. I think it's far more likely than Ingram taps into his upside as it mostly involves putting an effort on D. Put him next to Embiid and I think that happens. I'd make the argument than Ingram actually has more upside than Ben.

I also think people forget just how long Brandon Ingram is at 6'8. He has a 7'3 wingspan and 9'1 standing reach. He's closer to TL (7'6, 9'4) than Tatum (6'11, 8'10.5) or Brown (7'0, 8'9.5). He has all the tools to be a great defender.

I'm probably alone but I'd trade Jaylen Brown for him all day. I think Ingram is a better fit alongside Tatum and the 2 would feed off each other more. The 2 have a friendly rivalry with each other and have been friends for some time. Funny thing is, I could actually see Ingram demanding a trade in 2-3 years and I'm pretty sure the C's would be at the top of his list due to Tatum and Laker hate. I'd love to add Ingram to the Jays and TL. Talk about a long, long, team.

I also might be the biggest Ingram supporter on the board and have never understood the criticism he got his first 2-3 years in the league. I think Ben Simmons is better but I don't think its by much. I'd have them in the same tier. Simmons gets a lot of bonus points for "potential" but most players are what they are during their age 25 season. I guess we haven't seen any of Ben in his age 25 season though. It's possible he made some great strides this offseason but I very much doubt it.

edit: Ingram's 7'3 wingspan and 9'1 standing reach haven't really done him much good do date tough, with awful career steal % (1.0%) and block % (1.5%) rates. Not many players on terrible teams put the effort in on D though. It's also hard to parse out how bad they vs how bad the team is. I'm not willing to write him off because I see what Gary Trent is doing this year re: deflections vs the rest of his career. Sometimes, it really is just scheme, usage and teammates.
 
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Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
18,697
I'm also not calling Trent a good defender, just that he's a completely different player on D than he was in Portland. It's all mostly deflections and Toronto plays for deflections.
37 steals, 6 blocks in 1262 minutes for Portland last year
49 steals, 8 blocks in 831 minutes for Toronto this year.

Steal rate going into year: 1.6%. This year: Currently 3.0%.

It's also easier to gamble when your teammates aren't CJ and Dame.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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When do they postpone games? They can still suit 8 players I guess.
Postponing a couple of games this week for the teams hit the hardest would hardly be the disaster that some make it out to be, and does seem prudent to avoid further disruptions.
 

Jakarta

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Dec 18, 2020
74
Simmons is obviously a better player than Ingram. But Morey would never do better than an Ingram deal IMO.

As an aside, people need to stop referencing Simmons' "upside". Man hasn't developed one iota since entering the league. Maybe he magically learns how to shoot, but it seems unlikely at this point. And he hasn't developed anything else either.
When I referred to his “upside” I guess I should have specified that I don’t think he needs to magically learn to shoot. I think being in the right situation, where he is unquestionably the main guy, I think we would see him flourish. I keep thinking back to the game against the Jazz last year when Embiid was out where he put up 42/12/9 and went 12/13 from the line. I think when he doesn’t have to think about deferring to a better player he can more consistently play with an aggressiveness he sometimes lacks. 2 years ago he put up 20/8/7 in 16 games Embiid didn’t play, and then last year that was only 15.5/8/6.5, so maybe that isn’t actually true. But if I was a middling team going nowhere like NO I think I would make that bet.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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Why is Simmons obviously better? Part of me wants to agree but part of me wonders how much of our opinion is based on him playing for the better team. Ingram has always been on awful teams. Star players on awful teams are usually underrated because some fans have the mentality of "if he was that good, the team would be better than 28-54." Sometimes, that actually is the case but I don't think it is with Ingram.

Ingram is clearly the much better scorer/shooter. Simmons has an edge in rebounding and playmaking but rebounding is often a team thing. Ingram is also a pretty good playmaker himself, though not in the same company as Ben. D is obviously in Ben's favor but Ingram has all the tools to be an elite defender.
Shooter yes, scorer.... I wouldn't be so sure. He gets higher volume because he's the #1 option on terrible teams, but Simmons has been a really effective scorer, despite not being the #1 option. Even with his bad FT% and not taking 3s, Simmons puts up better TS% than Ingram and it's not That LOW on volume, he's still putting up 9 FGA/100 (Ingram is at 10.9) over the last 3 seasons. I think Simmons is a better player on both ends.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
18,697
Shooter yes, scorer.... I wouldn't be so sure. He gets higher volume because he's the #1 option on terrible teams, but Simmons has been a really effective scorer, despite not being the #1 option. Even with his bad FT% and not taking 3s, Simmons puts up better TS% than Ingram and it's not That LOW on volume, he's still putting up 9 FGA/100 (Ingram is at 10.9) over the last 3 seasons. I think Simmons is a better player on both ends.
Where are you getting those numbers? Over the last 3 years, Ingram is at 11.5 FGM and 24.9 FGA per 100. Simmons is at 9.0 and 15.9.

Simmons TS% the last 3, .582, .602, .584. Ingram: .587, .584 and currently .543.

If his TS% ends up closer to the .580 range again this year, the 2 of them are basically equally efficient, but Ingram is shooting the ball 9 times more per 100. If Simmons is a better offensive player, it's because of his playmaking. Ingram is the better scorer.
 

Cellar-Door

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Where are you getting those numbers? Over the last 3 years, Ingram is at 11.5 FGM and 24.9 FGA per 100. Simmons is at 9.0 and 15.9.

Simmons TS% the last 3, .582, .602, .584. Ingram: .587, .584 and currently .543.

If his TS% ends up closer to the .580 range again this year, the 2 of them are basically equally efficient, but Ingram is shooting the ball 9 times more per 100. If Simmons is a better offensive player, it's because of his playmaking. Ingram is the better scorer.
WHoops I was looking at FGM not FGA.
47257

Ingram is maybe the better scorer, but I wouldn't say definitely, he's a volume scorer, we can't say he's underrated because he's on bad teams then credit him as the better scorer because he takes a million shots on a bad team. He's a better shooter, he's probably the better scorer... but there is less real evidence of that. I don't think there is much at all to base him being a better player. Simmons is better at most of the game, he's a significantly better defender both by stats and leaguewide opinion, he's a significantly better passer, a better rebounder, etc.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
18,697
WHoops I was looking at FGM not FGA.
View attachment 47257

Ingram is maybe the better scorer, but I wouldn't say definitely, he's a volume scorer, we can't say he's underrated because he's on bad teams then credit him as the better scorer because he takes a million shots on a bad team. He's a better shooter, he's probably the better scorer... but there is less real evidence of that. I don't think there is much at all to base him being a better player. Simmons is better at most of the game, he's a significantly better defender both by stats and leaguewide opinion, he's a significantly better passer, a better rebounder, etc.
That's being harsh on Ingram. A .578 TS% isn't a volume scorer. Would you refer to Jaylen Brown as a volume scorer? A .578 is considerably above league average. I guess when I hear volume scorer I just hear the word "chucker."

Ingram is an efficient.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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That's being harsh on Ingram. A .578 TS% isn't a volume scorer. Would you refer to Jaylen Brown as a volume scorer? A .578 is considerably above league average. I guess when I hear volume scorer I just hear the word "chucker."

Ingram is an efficient.
Yeah, I don't mean he's a chucker, I mean he's putting up huge volume in meaningless games, you can't really tell if that extra volume makes him a clearly better scorer than someone putting up a bit better efficiency as a secondary option on a team that plays games that matter.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
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Even if you give Ingram an advantage on the offensive end, he is an abomination on defense despite sweet length. That end matters.
Right, but is it just effort? On a winning team, maybe he actually tries on defense.

Plus he fits on almost any team. Can't say that about Ben.
 

Cellar-Door

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Right, but is it just effort? On a winning team, maybe he actually tries on defense.

Plus he fits on almost any team. Can't say that about Ben.
Guys who don't try on defense for 6 seasons don't usually become good defenders at any point. He fits with any team that doesn't care about defense or rebounding and has lots of shots to give up. Simmons fits any team defensively just not offensively, Ingram is the opposite, but...the less shots available the less value he provides on offense since he's a mediocre passer and rebounder. So sure, Ingram can fit anywhere, but where Simmons fits he's a positive on both ends, Ingram isn't going to be that.

Are there teams that would rather have Ingram... probably, but most teams would rather have Simmons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Guys who don't try on defense for 6 seasons don't usually become good defenders at any point. He fits with any team that doesn't care about defense or rebounding and has lots of shots to give up. Simmons fits any team defensively just not offensively, Ingram is the opposite, but...the less shots available the less value he provides on offense since he's a mediocre passer and rebounder. So sure, Ingram can fit anywhere, but where Simmons fits he's a positive on both ends, Ingram isn't going to be that.

Are there teams that would rather have Ingram... probably, but most teams would rather have Simmons.

Why do you think Ingram is a mediocre passer? If you think that, what do you think of Tatum and Brown's passing?

I just dont agree with people's take on Ingram at all. Mediocre passer, volume scorer etc.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
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Jaylen's a terrible passer. He's as likely to turn it over as get an assist.
Tatum is an ok passer, but trying to get better

Ingram is probably a better passer than both (but don't watch enough Pels to be positive on that)

While it's not part of the discussion, Simmons would be 10x more helpful to the Celtics than Ingram. So I see Ben Simmons as a much more valuable player for Boston. Teams with +++ballhandlers/PGs that need scoring wings would probably want Ingram (since you basically need 3 wings on the floor at a time)
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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While it's not part of the discussion, Simmons would be 10x more helpful to the Celtics than Ingram. So I see Ben Simmons as a much more valuable player for Boston. Teams with +++ballhandlers/PGs that need scoring wings would probably want Ingram (since you basically need 3 wings on the floor at a time)
C's would be title contenders with either and I think both would be great fits. Any all star quality player would make the C's a title contender, assuming health anyway.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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Why do you think Ingram is a mediocre passer? If you think that, what do you think of Tatum and Brown's passing?

I just dont agree with people's take on Ingram at all. Mediocre passer, volume scorer etc.
Tatum is a mediocre passer, very similar to Ingram, Brown is a below average passer to a bad one.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
17,222
Ben Simmons has to prove that he actually wants to compete and play NBA basketball before I'm declaring him better than anybody.
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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Ben Simmons has to prove that he actually wants to compete and play NBA basketball before I'm declaring him better than anybody.
call me crazy but anyone not named JAY on the Cs would get picked up by yours truly and driven to Logan if it meant Simmons was coming to Boston (and I live in LA)

great defender + ball mover is exactly what IME wants in his system

probably why Smart isn't going anywhere also
 

Kliq

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call me crazy but anyone not named JAY on the Cs would get picked up by yours truly and driven to Logan if it meant Simmons was coming to Boston (and I live in LA)

great defender + ball mover is exactly what IME wants in his system

probably why Smart isn't going anywhere also
The idyllic version of Simmons would be a great fit on the Celtics. Unfortunately the current version that exists is the version that refuses to play basketball.

I'm continually baffled by people seemingly assessing Simmons as a typical NBA player and not the pariah that he has become.
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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The idyllic version of Simmons would be a great fit on the Celtics. Unfortunately the current version that exists is the version that refuses to play basketball.

I'm continually baffled by people seemingly assessing Simmons as a typical NBA player and not the pariah that he has become.
yea I'd roll the dice on him, it's a 50/50 prop bet you get a motivated, All-NBA Simmons

combine that with the JAYs and ....

gas the Duck boats because they will get used sometime in the next 3 seasons.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
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Jan 15, 2004
22,965
The idyllic version of Simmons would be a great fit on the Celtics. Unfortunately the current version that exists is the version that refuses to play basketball.

I'm continually baffled by people seemingly assessing Simmons as a typical NBA player and not the pariah that he has become.
He was never questioned to be a perennial All-Star until he had a couple awful playoff games. Everything that ensued with his coach, star teammate and fan reaction really has nothing to do with him. I have no problem with him standing his ground to force himself out of that horrific environment around him in Philly. This isn’t Kyrie here.
 

deanx0

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Dec 7, 2004
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That's great for him, very cool.

(Also, man does partying hard for 20 years take a toll on the appearance. He looks like he's 60.)
Just don't read the replies. I just don't understand why people feel the need to shit on the accomplishments of others, mocking the difficulty of the classes he was taking or his intelligence. Dude worked hard and has every right to be proud of what he did.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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I find it weird people were surprised JR did well, for all the jokes, yeah he likes weed, yeah he sometimes says dumb things... at the same time, he was an NBA player for 16 years, that takes a remarkable amount of focus, hard work and discipline. As someone who went to college, guess what, a lot of people in college like to smoke weed too, and most don't have the level of discipline that basically any grown adult who has had a job does, nevermind one who is used to a highly regimented incredibly hard job like being an athlete. Once he decided he wanted to achieve that I would have bet on him. Grades are only a bit about "intelligence" they are mostly about disciplined hard work.
 

chilidawg

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Jan 22, 2015
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Cultural hub of the universe
I find it weird people were surprised JR did well, for all the jokes, yeah he likes weed, yeah he sometimes says dumb things... at the same time, he was an NBA player for 16 years, that takes a remarkable amount of focus, hard work and discipline. As someone who went to college, guess what, a lot of people in college like to smoke weed too, and most don't have the level of discipline that basically any grown adult who has had a job does, nevermind one who is used to a highly regimented incredibly hard job like being an athlete. Once he decided he wanted to achieve that I would have bet on him. Grades are only a bit about "intelligence" they are mostly about disciplined hard work.
Most things in life are more about hard work than intelligence. Good on ya JR.

As a 60 year old who likes wine and weed, I'd say JR looks nothing at all like a 60 year old.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
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Most things in life are more about hard work than intelligence. Good on ya JR.

As a 60 year old who likes wine and weed, I'd say JR looks nothing at all like a 60 year old.
He doesn't look 60 but he does look quite old for 36. He looks in his mid 40s.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Jul 19, 2005
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Klay and Wiseman both recalled from Santa Cruz. Don’t think that means they’ll play tomorrow at the Garden, but you never know. Coming soon, in any case…
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
17,222
I'm happy IT has gotten back into the league. The Lakers are a hilarious spot for him though.