2021-2022 Yankees Offseason Discussion

jon abbey

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I'll get more into this when I have more energy, but for starters:

1. Fire Aaron Boone. I’m not holding him responsible for this year’s underperformance, I’m holding him responsible for having no ability to improvise as a manager in late-game situations. Phil Nevin will go along with him since they’re buddies and Marcus Thames probably needs to go too after this year’s collective massive underperformance by the offense. I like Thames, sorry dude.

If for some reason Cashman still refuses to fire Boone, then hire a bullpen usage coach. This coach makes the bullpen move decisions, and runs them by Boone before they happen. Boone should not disagree very often but if he does, Matt Blake gets the deciding vote. This sounds complicated but they’re all right there in the dugout and it can happen quite quickly. You’re welcome, Brian!

2. One of Gleyber or DJ have to go. Both are second basemen, both should play second base, only one can in NY. DJ is 33 with 5/75 left on his deal and a full no-trade for one more year (partial no-trade after that), so I would trade Gleyber.

(Much) more later.

======================================

Personnel plan edited in on November 12:

OK, I am going to take a shot at an offseason plan, mostly because I am curious to see just how pricy it will be even without one of the big SSs. Arb players' salaries are from the MLBTR estimates (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/10/projected-arbitration-salaries-for-2022.html)

NY trades Gleyber, Voit, Deivi, Gil and Oswaldo Cabrera for Matt Olson (two years remaining).
NY signs Justin Verlander for 2/46.
NY signs Starling Marte for 3/54.
NY trades Chad Green (one year left) for prospect/s.

Marte CF ($18M)
Judge RF ($17.1M)
Olson 1B ($12M)
Stanton DH ($22M)
Sanchez C ($7.9M)
Gallo LF ($10.2M)
LeMahieu 2B ($15M)
Urshela 3B ($6.2M)
Peraza SS

bench: Hicks ($10M), Higgy ($1.2M), Wade ($700K), Gittens

Cole ($36M)
Verlander ($23M)
Taillon ($4.7M)
Montgomery ($4.8M)
Severino ($10M)

(next up: German, Cortes, Schmidt, King)

German ($2.1M)
Luetge ($1.1M)
Abreu
Rodriguez ($2m)
Peralta ($1.7M)
Holmes ($1.0M)
Loaisiga ($1.7M)
Chapman ($17.5M)

minors: Cortes, King, Schmidt, Ridings, Nelson

hurt: Britton ($14M)

=========================

So that comes in around $238-$240M plus the 40 man players/player benefits adds $18.2M, putting them at $256-$258M which seems completely possible given what Cashman has been saying this week, obviously pending a new CBA.
 

jon abbey

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On top of the pretty loaded set of SSs and CFs that NY has assembled currently, they have the #1 international prospect coming in January (Roderick Arias) and Fangraphs has them getting the #1 guy the year after too, unless he decides to move up a class because the deadline changed from July to January.
 

jon abbey

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Cashman made one horrendous decision in hiring (and sticking with) Boone and he had a pretty awful winter, but this is not on him.
 

Wingack

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On top of the pretty loaded set of SSs and CFs that NY has assembled currently, they have the #1 international prospect coming in January (Roderick Arias) and Fangraphs has them getting the #1 guy the year after too, unless he decides to move up a class because the deadline changed from July to January.
I know the system looks nice. And he can build a bullpen, but I just feel like he struggles elsewhere. Might be the right time to do a mini-rebuild till the farm is ready.
 

jon abbey

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I know the system looks nice. And he can build a bullpen, but I just feel like he struggles elsewhere. Might be the right time to do a mini-rebuild till the farm is ready.
Judge and Gallo and Sanchez and Taillon and Green and Chapman and Britton all have one more year, they can rebuild after that but really they should go for it this winter in a huge way.
 

jon abbey

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Still love the Gallo trade, but his first two months in NY were pretty awful. He has one more season to make that look better.
 

jon abbey

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Also I don't know why no one ever broaches this, but Boone's incompetent bullpen usage doesn't just cost NY games at the time, he breaks relievers because he does not know how to utilize an entire pen correctly. O'Day went down, I detailed when it happened why I think that he broke Britton, and he wore down Green and Loaisiga. He needs to be fired before he breaks more guys.
 

RG33

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They seem to have a lot of the same player. Slugger. HRs. Strikeouts. No real position. All or nothing types.

As a Sox fan, it feels like an organizational change is needed, and it is finally time for Cashman to go. He’s been great — 23 years as GM is a LONG time, it just feels like they need new leadership and a new direction.
 

jon abbey

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They seem to have a lot of the same player. Slugger. HRs. Strikeouts. No real position. All or nothing types.
They literally don’t have a single player that meets this entire description except Voit and they tried to move him at the deadline and will again this winter. Gallo plays great D, Judge is good in RF and was even solid in center, and Stanton was fine in the OF once they let him do it.
 

RG33

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They literally don’t have a single player that meets this entire description except Voit and they tried to move him at the deadline and will again this winter. Gallo plays great D, Judge is good in RF and was even solid in center, and Stanton was fine in the OF once they let him do it.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I was bucketing Stanton, Voit, Sanchez, Urshela, Odor, and Andujar into that grouping.

Judge and Gallo are great, for sure.
 

jon abbey

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Sanchez has his issues, but he is an adequate overall defensive catcher. Urshela had a lousy season but is solid at 3B and even played OK at SS when needed. Voit and Odor and Andujar are unlikely to survive the winter, Andujar wasn’t even activated for yesterday’s game despite hitting well in AAA last week.
 

crow216

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They seem to have a lot of the same player. Slugger. HRs. Strikeouts. No real position. All or nothing types.

As a Sox fan, it feels like an organizational change is needed, and it is finally time for Cashman to go. He’s been great — 23 years as GM is a LONG time, it just feels like they need new leadership and a new direction.
This isn't true.

Normalize their GDP stats, improve the bad defense, and improve the poor baserunning + fix Boone's bullpen usage. This team wins 100+ games. The offense, especially the middle of it, are nothing like what you're describing. Judge plays great D, Gallo plays great D, Stanton is pretty good in the outfield. They just got chewed up by Nate who happened to throw his best game in a long time.

Regardless, Cashman did make a few mistakes but I don't necessarily blame him for not realizing that some very key players would have drastic performance drops. Gleyber, Sanchez, DJ, and Britton gave nothing all year. Urshela was not a plus. Higashioka was really bad. The lineup went from being "top to bottom there's no break" to "just get past the top 5" and the rest of the lineup is shit.

My gut tells me that you part ways with Gleyber and Sanchez if at all possible. If you don't trade them, they suck, if you trade them, they'll do well. That's the accepted risk I'm willing to take. Give me a 750-800ops player who can play solid D at both positions and I'm ecstatic. DJ stays because of his versatility and he was probably pretty injured most of this year.
 

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Things I would like to see:

1) Trade Voit
2) Resign Rizzo
3) Gardner rides off into the sunset
4) Trade Gleyber
5) Find a new SS that is good defensively on short years; keep the seat warm for Peraza or another emerging prospect
7) Decide whether it is time to move on from Sanchez or not. If they decide to keep him, find an upgrade over Higgy and play that guy more. With Stanton getting more time in the field, maybe more of Sanchez's ABs come from DHing and his offense improves.
8) Consider adding another #2/#3 SP. I know the Yankees have plenty of internal options for a full rotation (Cole, Taillon, Severino, Montgomery, German, Nestor, some of the younger guys, etc), but I wouldn't mind seeing them move on from German and I'm still not convinced that Severino can be depended on to stay healthy. Management needs to figure out how to get more length from the starting pitching. Too many bullpen innings are grinding guys down. I don't think it was all on Boone.
9) And speaking of Boone, yeah, I think it is time to move on. His contract is over and a new contract makes little sense since he would be starting it on thin ice already. Just don't hire Beltran, please.

I don't know what the deal is with Hicks health-wise, but I'm assuming he'll be the semi-regular CFer and Stanton will play the OF a couple of times a week and DH the rest. Maybe Gallo starts getting reps in CF along with Judge.

Same question about health on Frazier. Probably time to move on there and maybe with Andujar too.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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I’m an outsider here but it seems to me the legitimate knock against Cashman is that he’s held on to a few players a little long. It’s not like he hasn’t made trades, but I know just from perusing this forum there has been talk of dealing guys like Frazier and Andujar going back three or four seasons now, and instead they’re both still in NY with uncertainty about their futures. That said, as a non-NY fan, I think I’d be quite pleased if they really did move on from him.
 

jon abbey

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I’m an outsider here but it seems to me the legitimate knock against Cashman is that he’s held on to a few players a little long. It’s not like he hasn’t made trades, but I know just from perusing this forum there has been talk of dealing guys like Frazier and Andujar going back three or four seasons now, and instead they’re both still in NY with uncertainty about their futures. That said, as a non-NY fan, I think I’d be quite pleased if they really did move on from him.
He definitely held onto both of them way too long, but both had potentially special bats and every team is trying to create productive young cost-controlled players.
 

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Also, regarding Gio, he's been injured more than usual this season and I think there is a solid chance he rebounds offensively next year.

09/03/2021 Hand Day-To-Day
07/31/2021 Hamstring 10-Day Injured List
07/16/2021 Covid-19 10-Day Injured List
06/22/2021 Leg Day-To-Day
05/06/2021 Knee Day-To-Day
04/22/2021 Back Day-To-Day
04/09/2021 Undisclosed Day-To-Day
 

jon abbey

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Here's my perspective on Cashman, quickly:

He did a lot of things wrong in the few years preceding 2016, but he very publicly pivoted beginning with the moves of Chapman and Miller that deadline, and I personally only judge him on what he has done since then. What he has done since then has been a lot more right than wrong, I will always wonder a bit what would have happened to this Yankee team if Covid never happened. No 2020 minor league season meant no year of development for all of their high level pitching arms, which I think hurt NY as much as any team in MLB in terms of not just development, but also evaluation. Do they still need to get Kluber and Taillon if their own guys have another year under their belts last winter? We'll never know.
 

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5) Find a new SS that is good defensively on short years; keep the seat warm for Peraza or another emerging prospect
This is the one that might be the biggest test. Isn't this coming free agent market loaded with shortstops?
 

bankshot1

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Someone had to lose last night, I'm just glad it was the Bronx Beer Bashers & AC.



As you fellows discuss the future and where to bury Boone's body, I posted a variant of this last night in the Sox game thread.

...but Boone pulled a Torre circa '03 last night. When he pulled Cole in the 3rd it brought to mind Joe T pulling Roger in G7 ALCS when Roger didn't have it and after giving up another HR (4-0 Sox) Joe brought in Mussina to get out of a Roger jam. And in both cases ('21 and '03) immediate disaster averted with a K and double-play. Mussina's 3-inning work in that game probably saved the day, buying time for Grady to fuck up, and ironically until Boone took Wakefield deep, which ironically led him to manage the Yankees.

condolences
 

crow216

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Here's another hot take opinion I have for Cashman.

He didn't think the Red Sox would be competitive and he very likely didn't think the Blue Jays were ready to make a run at the division. I imagine that he, along with the rest of the baseball world, assumed that the Yankees would have an easy regular season but shouldn't have immense trouble getting to 1st place.

This is where the philosophy needs to change. The AL East is going to be absolute grind every year. Red Sox are consistently going to be a pain in the ass, going from a really bad year here and there to division contenders. The Rays are the class of the league right. Toronto is insane. Now you have the Yankees who will spend whatever they need to (probably) just to refill their roster so they can maybe get a division title in the next couple of years.

The WC system both helps and wrecks the AL East. We (top 4 teams) are probably going to be facing each other every year for awhile in these one game playoffs.
 

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Here's another hot take opinion I have for Cashman.

He didn't think the Red Sox would be competitive and he very likely didn't think the Blue Jays were ready to make a run at the division. I imagine that he, along with the rest of the baseball world, assumed that the Yankees would have an easy regular season but shouldn't have immense trouble getting to 1st place.

This is where the philosophy needs to change. The AL East is going to be absolute grind every year. Red Sox are consistently going to be a pain in the ass, going from a really bad year here and there to division contenders. The Rays are the class of the league right. Toronto is insane. Now you have the Yankees who will spend whatever they need to (probably) just to refill their roster so they can maybe get a division title in the next couple of years.

The WC system both helps and wrecks the AL East. We (top 4 teams) are probably going to be facing each other every year for awhile in these one game playoffs.
The unbalanced schedule plus the consistent strength in the AL East is a travesty from a fairness perspective. It's not just right now, either. Going back the last decade+, the best 3 overall records in the AL are NYY, BOS and Rays. It might fly in the face of tradition, but expanded playoffs in the next CBA is the best thing that could happen for fans of AL East teams.
 

jon abbey

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The unbalanced schedule plus the consistent strength in the AL East is a travesty from a fairness perspective. It's not just right now, either. Going back the last decade+, the best 3 overall records in the AL are NYY, BOS and Rays. It might fly in the face of tradition, but expanded playoffs in the next CBA is the best thing that could happen for fans of AL East teams.
It doesn't have to be expanded playoffs, it can just be reseeding teams 1-5 based on their record. This is still not a level playing field with unbalanced schedules, but at least it would give us a chance for the Dodgers/Giants NLCS we should be getting.
 

Wingack

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I’m an outsider here but it seems to me the legitimate knock against Cashman is that he’s held on to a few players a little long. It’s not like he hasn’t made trades, but I know just from perusing this forum there has been talk of dealing guys like Frazier and Andujar going back three or four seasons now, and instead they’re both still in NY with uncertainty about their futures. That said, as a non-NY fan, I think I’d be quite pleased if they really did move on from him.
The Red Sox have always been good at letting go of players at the right time (well except for Betts). Even legends, Pedro is a great example of this. The Red Sox are also great at moving bad contracts, while the Yankees let them sit on their roster (the Sox would have found a way to offload Ellsbury).
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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The Yankees are in the uncomfortable position that they can't ever commit to a full rebuild (the Sox can't really either but quite to that extent) but they are unable to give anyone the time that Dalbec had at 1st this season. The Sox didn't have a choice really (if we accept that it was because they were sticking with a long term plan).... but the Yankees would unquestionably have replaced him.
Not to speculate on results, but possibly Rizzo comes in and does great and it's not even an issue... and maybe Dalbec turns back into Dalbec in '22.... but I don't think the Yankees would ever be able to see what could happen. Rehearsals are short there and they will likely sign a deal with Rizzo while I doubt the Sox would.
 

crow216

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The Red Sox have always been good at letting go of players at the right time (well except for Betts). Even legends, Pedro is a great example of this. The Red Sox are also great at moving bad contracts, while the Yankees let them sit on their roster (the Sox would have found a way to offload Ellsbury).
Which wasn't a problem until they really suddenly cared a whole lot about the luxury tax.
 

Wingack

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The Yankees are in the uncomfortable position that they can't ever commit to a full rebuild (the Sox can't really either but quite to that extent) but they are unable to give anyone the time that Dalbec had at 1st this season. The Sox didn't have a choice really (if we accept that it was because they were sticking with a long term plan).... but the Yankees would unquestionably have replaced him.
Not to speculate on results, but possibly Rizzo comes in and does great and it's not even an issue... and maybe Dalbec turns back into Dalbec in '22.... but I don't think the Yankees would ever be able to see what could happen. Rehearsals are short there and they will likely sign a deal with Rizzo while I doubt the Sox would.
And Rizzo may have a good year and a half...but then the Yankees are on the hook and stay on the hook.
 

EvilEmpire

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The Yankees have given plenty of young players a chance to stick. More pitchers than position players maybe, but there have been opportunities.

Gittens didn't get as much of a chance as I would have liked to have seen though.
 

tims4wins

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The Red Sox have always been good at letting go of players at the right time (well except for Betts). Even legends, Pedro is a great example of this. The Red Sox are also great at moving bad contracts, while the Yankees let them sit on their roster (the Sox would have found a way to offload Ellsbury).
A nitpick, but given the number of games Mookie missed this year, they may have let him go at the right time too.
 

mauidano

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I think it's better to let the pain subside for a few days. It's always easy to have a knee-jerk reaction as a rapid response to losing unexpectedly. Sudden death games are really tough to win or lose. NY is a good team at it's core. Expectations are always high in The Bronx as they are in Boston. Sox got real lucky with their trade deals; NY not so much. The AL East is arguably the toughest division in baseball.

I think both Boone and Cashman stay.
 

crow216

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I think it's better to let the pain subside for a few days. It's always easy to have a knee-jerk reaction as a rapid response to losing unexpectedly. Sudden death games are really tough to win or lose. NY is a good team at it's core. Expectations are always high in The Bronx as they are in Boston. Sox got real lucky with their trade deals; NY not so much. The AL East is arguably the toughest division in baseball.

I think both Boone and Cashman stay.
None of this is knee-jerk. Had they won a world series, these same problems would persist exactly the same as the 2021 Red Sox. None of the opinions here from at least the Yankees contingent of SOSH sounds any different than it has all season.

The Red Sox need to think the same way. They are not a good team and you all know that. They can't approach the offseason any differently just because they beat a shitty Yankees team.
 

Max Power

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None of this is knee-jerk. Had they won a world series, these same problems would persist exactly the same as the 2021 Red Sox. None of the opinions here from at least the Yankees contingent of SOSH sounds any different than it has all season.

The Red Sox need to think the same way. They are not a good team and you all know that. They can't approach the offseason any differently just because they beat a shitty Yankees team.
That's a little excessive. Both are good teams, but not great teams. They were entirely deserving of their spots in the one game Wild Card. The Red Sox weaknesses are in defense and the bullpen while the Yankees lack rotation depth and are too dependent on walks and homers for their offense. It's entirely possible that either could have the best record in the league next year, but it will require more than just a few moves around the edges in the offseason.
 

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That's a little excessive. Both are good teams, but not great teams. They were entirely deserving of their spots in the one game Wild Card. The Red Sox weaknesses are in defense and the bullpen while the Yankees lack rotation depth and are too dependent on walks and homers for their offense. It's entirely possible that either could have the best record in the league next year, but it will require more than just a few moves around the edges in the offseason.
Maybe, but it is entirely possible that the Rays stay as good as they are and the Jays continue to get better (as the young guys develop further, Springer actually plays, they improve on the pitching side through acquisitions) and the Sox and Yanks fall a little further back to the pack of the rest of the AL.
 

curly2

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A Torres trade would be very interesting. Obviously Cashman will seek value like he's the 38-homer Gleyber of 2019, while teams will probably counter with lowball offers since he's had no pop since that season. Would it be smarter for Cashman to hold on to him if teams think they can buy low?
 

Max Power

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Maybe, but it is entirely possible that the Rays stay as good as they are and the Jays continue to get better (as the young guys develop further, Springer actually plays, they improve on the pitching side through acquisitions) and the Sox and Yanks fall a little further back to the pack of the rest of the AL.
Sure. I was just pushing against the idea that they're bad teams. They're not the Orioles or Rangers who have no hope of being the best team in the league with just one offseason of moves. The Yankees, Red Sox, and Jays all could. I'm less convinced by the Mariners and A's.
 

jon abbey

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A Torres trade would be very interesting. Obviously Cashman will seek value like he's the 38-homer Gleyber of 2019, while teams will probably counter with lowball offers since he's had no pop since that season. Would it be smarter for Cashman to hold on to him if teams think they can buy low?
As I said in the top post, it doesn't make sense for NY to keep both DJ and Gleyber as both really need to be everyday 2B. When NY originally signed DJ, it completely surprised everyone, no one had even thought for a second they might do that. Why? Because both DJ and Gleyber really need to be everyday 2B and are far less valuable anywhere else.

Anyway, with Peraza and Volpe pushing up from inside and plenty of FA SS candidates, now would be a great time to move on from one of them, and DJ is likely untradeable. Gleyber probably regained some value with his strong finish, they should have traded him a year or two ago (no one agreed with me about this at the time, especially Yankee fans) but they probably need to move on this winter anyway.

I will go through the team position by position when I have the energy to do so.
 

jon abbey

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Although honestly I'm not sure how much energy I can put into being a Yankees fan if Boone is not fired, so we'll see.
 

Wingack

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As I said in the top post, it doesn't make sense for NY to keep both DJ and Gleyber as both really need to be everyday 2B. When NY originally signed DJ, it completely surprised everyone, no one had even thought for a second they might do that. Why? Because both DJ and Gleyber really need to be everyday 2B and are far less valuable anywhere else.

Anyway, with Peraza and Volpe pushing up from inside and plenty of FA SS candidates, now would be a great time to move on from one of them, and DJ is likely untradeable. Gleyber probably regained some value with his strong finish, they should have traded him a year or two ago (no one agreed with me about this at the time, especially Yankee fans) but they probably need to move on this winter anyway.

I will go through the team position by position when I have the energy to do so.
You have been calling for them (at least I think) to get a big FA shortstop, but wouldn't that just block the young studs that could be ready in 2023?
 

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I'm pretty sure more than one Yankee fan here has been open to trading Gleyber over the past year or two.
 

jon abbey

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You have been calling for them (at least I think) to get a big FA shortstop, but wouldn't that just block the young studs that could be ready in 2023?
No, it's all pretty complicated, but I think Seager (the Dodgers one) is probably better off at 3B anyway, so you could sign him, pencil in Peraza at SS as he is actually an asset defensively there. Then when Volpe is ready, you can see how those guys are doing, but he can go to 2B.

Or you could sign Correa, leave him at SS and keep Gio at 3B, and let Peraza and Volpe force the issue when they get their inevitable chances. I actually am hesitant to make recommendations here because so much of it is how good defensively the players are at SS, and how many years they project to be good there.
 

54thMA

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It doesn't have to be expanded playoffs, it can just be reseeding teams 1-5 based on their record. This is still not a level playing field with unbalanced schedules, but at least it would give us a chance for the Dodgers/Giants NLCS we should be getting.
I agree with the reseeding part, but how do you make it work 1-5 as you stated?

5 is not a workable number, it's either got to be 4 or 8, or else have 6 playoff teams, with two teams getting a bye, but even that won't really work.

Again; the reseeding 100% needs to happen, to have a 100 plus win team have to play in a one game winner take all game is nuts, not to mention if they win, then two 100 plus win teams face off in the first round.

Again; that's nuts.

All sports really need to shitcan the division winner thing being seeded higher than wild cards and just do a reseed once the playoffs in all leagues, line them up best record to worst.

It's not a difficult concept.
 

jon abbey

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I agree with the reseeding part, but how do you make it work 1-5 as you stated?

5 is not a workable number, it's either got to be 4 or 8, or else have 6 playoff teams, with two teams getting a bye, but even that won't really work.

Again; the reseeding 100% needs to happen, to have a 100 plus win team have to play in a one game winner take all game is nuts, not to mention if they win, then two 100 plus win teams face off in the first round.

Again; that's nuts.

All sports really need to shitcan the division winner thing being seeded higher than wild cards and just do a reseed once the playoffs in all leagues, line them up best record to worst.

It's not a difficult concept.
I would even go farther and just dump divisions in the regular season too, make schedules as balanced as possible. The NBA essentially does this and it's one reason that is my favorite postseason system.

But to answer your question, it would be really simple. The qualifying system is the same, the three division winners make it as well as the two teams with the next best record, but from there they are just seeded 1-5 based on win totals. If you win your division at 87-75, you likely are playing in the 'wild card' game. If you don't like that, win more games.
 

j-man

Member
Dec 19, 2012
2,364
Arkansas
my 02 cents

1 fire boone and make a run at kevin cash the best way to beat TB is take their manger
2 hold off on any FA utill after a deal between the MLBPA and owners are made
3 trade sanchez and torries volt and chapman
4 garder love u mean it but it's time
5 talk to cle about 1 of their SP'S
6 add buster garola form the dogers
 

54thMA

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2012
8,828
Westwood MA
I would even go farther and just dump divisions in the regular season too, make schedules as balanced as possible. The NBA essentially does this and it's one reason that is my favorite postseason system.

But to answer your question, it would be really simple. The qualifying system is the same, the three division winners make it as well as the two teams with the next best record, but from there they are just seeded 1-5 based on win totals. If you win your division at 87-75, you likely are playing in the 'wild card' game. If you don't like that, win more games.
Ok, got it, so the WC game is still in play, 4 and 5 play in that game, the winner is the #4 seed and plays the #1.

I like it, they need to do it yesterday.