2021-2022 NBA Game Thread!

PedroKsBambino

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You missed my point. If you watch a Golden State game that Steph isn’t even in, you can see them running the same sorts of motion and the same scheme. Obviously, it doesn’t work as well without him (which is why I noted Steph matters) but if you think it’s only about Steph, it is not. Here’s one of literally dozens of articles laying out what they do. Note also that if it were just Steph, Mark Jackson would have succeeded). View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2271582-how-the-golden-state-warriors-offense-has-evolved-under-steve-kerr

. There’s motion, there’s expectations about number of passes, there’s design around off-ball movement…that’s an offense.

The Celtics don’t look like they have an offensive system not because of the players, but because they are not running any consistent offensive system. There is more to offensive basketball than whether your top scorer demands a double team…which i agree is relevant and matters, but is missing my point about the system in which those players are operating. Ime instituted a new defensive scheme (heavy reliance on switching almost everything) and while there’s been inconsistency there is clearly a theory there and some work to adopt an approach. I simply don’t see it on offense—-as I said, there’s a bunch of possible explanations. Some games it’s iso-heavy; some games it is high-post driven; other games it is just a step above school yard. We heard in pre-season they wanted Tatum and Brown to be playmakers—which isn’t a system, but is at least an offensive philosophy. We haven’t really seen that consistently, which might be about them or something else. We haven’t seen (for example) a consistent positioning or rotation or off-ball movement designed to best position those guys. We haven’t seen (with any consistency) a commitment to driving and dishing, or to creating overloads on one side, etc. Maybe he’s still experimenting, maybe he can’t get Smart (still the primary ball handler), Tatum, and Brown to buy in? But I simply don’t see it, really. Ime knows this——the Spurs ran a pretty similar offense for a long time even as their players evoloved, so Ime knows what a system looks like.

I don’t know why you are talking about Brad Stevens—the Celtics ran a similar scheme with IT as they did with early Tatum. Brad wasn’t a spectacular offensive coach, but he did have a system. They don’t appear to now. Maybe with continuity of healthy they’ll begin to show something. I don’t know, but it is missing right now.

Put a simpler way, if that helps, you can succeed without a system if your players are spectacular—LeBron has, for the most part, just been “LeBron” and only somewhat ever bought into anyone’s offensive system for example. To some degree 80s Celtics had only a loose system (but they had Larry Bird, who like LeBron was other-worldly as both a passer and scorer, and at least had clarity on how they’d use post-ups and ball rotation to create space on a consistent basis). But it is a lot easier to succeed with a set offensive system for those players to operate in, and more importantly for the role players to fit into. The Bulls were great because of Jordan, and also because they built a system around him that could plug in guys to roles and set expectations. For all their talent, Shaq and Kobe probably could have succeeded without any system but the triangle helped the guys around them. The Spurs ran motion and other concepts for a long time that allowed guys to understand where to go. The Warriors do the same. Those systems obviously are only so successful without the right players, but the inverse is also true. So what I’m saying is, what’s the offensive plan other than “hope Tatum and Brown do it themselves?”
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Ja is one of the most creative passers in the league. Its insane how effortlessly he throws no look dimes right to where his teammates seemingly like it.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Kevin Love has been surprisingly effectively the last five games as COVID has required him to play more—-24/9/3 on a 46/47/80 %s. Probably doesn’t mean a lot (to Cleveland, or anyone who might want him) but still sort of fun to see there’s a bit of gas left in the tank, I had thought he was pretty much toast.
 

BigSoxFan

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Kevin Love has been surprisingly effectively the last five games as COVID has required him to play more—-24/9/3 on a 46/47/80 %s. Probably doesn’t mean a lot (to Cleveland, or anyone who might want him) but still sort of fun to see there’s a bit of gas left in the tank, I had thought he was pretty much toast.
Shooting over 43% from 3 for the entire season. Not too shabby.
 

PedroKsBambino

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At $28 mil next year he’s still a lot of dead salary, but perhaps a useful role player at least….
 

Cellar-Door

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Alvin Gentry going IN on the refs....
View: https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1478607788288851970


LA's scorekeepers incorrectly start the clock on a missed FT, Sac is going to have possession but haven't touched it, Fox points out the error and the refs declare it a jump ball, because they blew the whistle before he touched it, even though he was the only player within 25 feet of the ball.

Edit- so the refs called this because nobody had possession, but... the reason nobody had possession is that rather than let Fox touch it before stopping play to fix the clock, they stopped the game before he could touch it, meaning it was a "loose" ball. So it's a by the book correct call, but only because the refs are dumb and chose to create that situation
 

soxhop411

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Alvin Gentry going IN on the refs....
View: https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1478607788288851970


LA's scorekeepers incorrectly start the clock on a missed FT, Sac is going to have possession but haven't touched it, Fox points out the error and the refs declare it a jump ball, because they blew the whistle before he touched it, even though he was the only player within 25 feet of the ball.

Edit- so the refs called this because nobody had possession, but... the reason nobody had possession is that rather than let Fox touch it before stopping play to fix the clock, they stopped the game before he could touch it, meaning it was a "loose" ball. So it's a by the book correct call, but only because the refs are dumb and chose to create that situation
Also the fact that the refs didn’t T up anyone on the kings, says to me they Agree it’s a stupid rule. Since we know refs love to give those out like candy.
 
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Cellar-Door

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You know the refs agree with him, since they didn’t T up anyone on the kings.
yeah the rule is dumb. As people pointed out, there is actually an advantage opportunity there. Late in games tell your clock operator to start early on every FT miss, get guaranteed jump ball instead of a rebounding battle.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You missed my point. If you watch a Golden State game that Steph isn’t even in, you can see them running the same sorts of motion and the same scheme. Obviously, it doesn’t work as well without him (which is why I noted Steph matters) but if you think it’s only about Steph, it is not. Here’s one of literally dozens of articles laying out what they do. Note also that if it were just Steph, Mark Jackson would have succeeded). View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2271582-how-the-golden-state-warriors-offense-has-evolved-under-steve-kerr

. There’s motion, there’s expectations about number of passes, there’s design around off-ball movement…that’s an offense.

The Celtics don’t look like they have an offensive system not because of the players, but because they are not running any consistent offensive system. There is more to offensive basketball than whether your top scorer demands a double team…which i agree is relevant and matters, but is missing my point about the system in which those players are operating. Ime instituted a new defensive scheme (heavy reliance on switching almost everything) and while there’s been inconsistency there is clearly a theory there and some work to adopt an approach. I simply don’t see it on offense—-as I said, there’s a bunch of possible explanations. Some games it’s iso-heavy; some games it is high-post driven; other games it is just a step above school yard. We heard in pre-season they wanted Tatum and Brown to be playmakers—which isn’t a system, but is at least an offensive philosophy. We haven’t really seen that consistently, which might be about them or something else. We haven’t seen (for example) a consistent positioning or rotation or off-ball movement designed to best position those guys. We haven’t seen (with any consistency) a commitment to driving and dishing, or to creating overloads on one side, etc. Maybe he’s still experimenting, maybe he can’t get Smart (still the primary ball handler), Tatum, and Brown to buy in? But I simply don’t see it, really. Ime knows this——the Spurs ran a pretty similar offense for a long time even as their players evoloved, so Ime knows what a system looks like.

I don’t know why you are talking about Brad Stevens—the Celtics ran a similar scheme with IT as they did with early Tatum. Brad wasn’t a spectacular offensive coach, but he did have a system. They don’t appear to now. Maybe with continuity of healthy they’ll begin to show something. I don’t know, but it is missing right now.

Put a simpler way, if that helps, you can succeed without a system if your players are spectacular—LeBron has, for the most part, just been “LeBron” and only somewhat ever bought into anyone’s offensive system for example. To some degree 80s Celtics had only a loose system (but they had Larry Bird, who like LeBron was other-worldly as both a passer and scorer, and at least had clarity on how they’d use post-ups and ball rotation to create space on a consistent basis). But it is a lot easier to succeed with a set offensive system for those players to operate in, and more importantly for the role players to fit into. The Bulls were great because of Jordan, and also because they built a system around him that could plug in guys to roles and set expectations. For all their talent, Shaq and Kobe probably could have succeeded without any system but the triangle helped the guys around them. The Spurs ran motion and other concepts for a long time that allowed guys to understand where to go. The Warriors do the same. Those systems obviously are only so successful without the right players, but the inverse is also true. So what I’m saying is, what’s the offensive plan other than “hope Tatum and Brown do it themselves?”
Hey! Drunk HRB here! Hope y’all having a blessed evening.

Systems and Motion and all that malarkey means nothing in this league without the personnel to not only execute this system……but to beat their man and put the ball in the basket. The Warriors “stuff” sounds great bc they can run it without Curry but the numbers show the at our stagnant offense without much ball movement is still more effective than the Warriors motion and ball movement when Curry isn’t in the game. Would you want all 5 non-Curry Warriors touching the ball as it’s whipped around or have 3-4 Celtics standing on the perimeter watching Jaylen or Jayson beat their man to a spot to get off their shot? One is “pretty” and the other is “ugly”……..one also scores more pts/poss than the other due in large part to all that “pretty” ball movement causing the Warriors to turn the ball over more than any team in the league.

Speaking of motion. I watched part of the 4Q and OT of the Orlando game and was thinking about this place. Why after a loss is this board filled with complaints about lack of movement, iso-heavy, blah blah blah…….but when we win (Orlando game) in this same manner nobody says a word about our lack of motion, Ball movement and reliance on JT/JB beating their man in the final 5-6 min of the game? Every trip up the floor we had some token motion with the objective to get Jaylen into an advantageous spot with the ball to beat his man. The only non-iso designed plays occurred when we would use a high screen to rub off of which is the same idea as an iso as the design is to create an angle for the ball handler.

Stop the madness. Down the stretch or games we are going to slow down and rely on JB/JT (and DS) to beat their man, not turn the ball over and get shots off. There is not going to be motion and ball movement that result in a high TO frequency against crunch time defense. We don’t have the personnel like GS with Curry and our stuff is more effective than theirs without Curry no matter how pretty it looks. Drunk Mamba Out.
 

SteveF

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The Celtics don’t look like they have an offensive system not because of the players
I don't agree with this. There is an offensive system, it just looks like there is no system because the players Udoka has are so poorly equipped to execute it. The players who most often have the ball in their hand do not drive/pass/shoot within 0.5 seconds of receiving the ball. They play like they are paid by the dribble. The offense is at least partly designed to get lots of open spot up attempts -- generally a good PPP playtype -- on a team with relatively poor shooting.

On the one hand, you could look at this offense as an attempt to expand the games of Tatum/Brown, providing them with the in-game experience they need to develop the skills they require to become the kinds of players that could lead a legitimate NBA title contender. Or alternatively, you could see this as an ill-advised attempt to fit square pegs into round holes.
 

kfoss99

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Is there a way to quantifiably prove this observation? I'm not an advanced stat guy.

If you check any NBA box score, it appears if at least 5 players score in double digits, that team far more often than not wins the game. Especially, if the losing team has less than 5 score in double digits.

There's exceptions, especially extremely high scoring games.

I think it proves the importance of ball movement and the way it makes offense easier and more fun and engaging to play.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I don't agree with this. There is an offensive system, it just looks like there is no system because the players Udoka has are so poorly equipped to execute it. The players who most often have the ball in their hand do not drive/pass/shoot within 0.5 seconds of receiving the ball. They play like they are paid by the dribble. The offense is at least partly designed to get lots of open spot up attempts -- generally a good PPP playtype -- on a team with relatively poor shooting.

On the one hand, you could look at this offense as an attempt to expand the games of Tatum/Brown, providing them with the in-game experience they need to develop the skills they require to become the kinds of players that could lead a legitimate NBA title contender. Or alternatively, you could see this as an ill-advised attempt to fit square pegs into round holes.
Then, tell me what the system is---what are the key principles, what are the off-ball guys doing, the sets, etc. To the degree the players can't do it---this is what differentiates Belichick from mere mortals, you have to operate with what you have in the NBA to some degree. If I saw a lot of good stuff and the players blowing it, you can argue to change the players. But I'm not seeing the first to say we should do the second.

For HRB, what I'd say is that when he sobers up I think he'll acknowledge that this is about differentiating what is "necessary" and what is "sufficient" not about either or. Stars are necessary to win in the NBA---he and I have been the two guys advocating that for more than a decade around here. Not coaches, systems, chemistry, or depth can replace apex-level stars and nothing changes that. BUT....having stars is not sufficient either, unless you have 2 of the top 3-5 guys and some supporting cast with talent. There's lots of examples of teams who have a break-down-the-opponent star (say, Kawhi in Toronto) who win beause they operate in a system with others who can execute around them and other break-down-the-opponent stars (say, Dame) who don't. It is simply not ONLY about the star---it's also about the context they are operating in and how that enables the players around them. Talent is huge, but system matters as well. That's been my point for a couple weeks---I don't know whether Tatum and Brown are going to develop enough to get us there, but I am sure the Celtics don't yet have an offensive system in place which will allow us to have confidence we know the answer to that. Which is a problem.

I agree with HRB that in the last 4 minutes it is primarily about stars. Defenses tighten, whistles get swallowed, those are indeed the times you need your top guys to be able to win matchups. This is why you simply don't see teams winning in the NBA without those stars no matter how great their coaching, their system, their chemistry, or their depth. I'm talking about the prior 44 minutes, where I would hope he would agree it is to a fair degree about how you enable others to contribute and support the stars. In the last 4 minutes, going back to the Brad bubble season, the Celtics have had two primary and consistent issues: Tatum and Brown are not consistently aggressive (so there's a lot of step-back and side-step long jumpers), and the players do not seem to fully trust their teammates. The first of those is coaching and the player developing. The second is, imo, as much about lack of a system in the first 44 minutes as it is about the other players. You need to build that trust, and you need to make it easier for people to execute and make choices. The Celtics aren't yet doing that.

I see a lot of blaming the stars here. I don't agree, though certainly that is an element of the larger challenge. These guys are still very young; they may or may not get there, but the chances they get there will go up a lot if the context they are operating in stabilizes some. That was true of Michael Jordan---who, remember, spent his first couple years hearing about how he didn't help the team win---and is certainly true of guys at the level of Tatum and Brown. I don't love the triangle, but it would help the Celtics...the Warriors offense is more than Steph, but also wouldn't work the same with the Celtics personnel. The Spurs can't operate their offense without a post player, and I'm not saying to replicate any of those. I'm saying you need a system---a philosophy, some sets, some principles---and I'm not yet seeing it offensively for the Celts.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Then, tell me what the system is---what are the key principles, what are the off-ball guys doing, the sets, etc.
Here's an article from October that discusses the changes Ime made: https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/analyzing-tactical-changes-boston-celtics-made-ime-udoka-compared-last-year

Note that Ime from what I understand wants to run the Spurs 0.5 second offense (i.e., either make a move or pass with 0.5 seconds). Which is not all that different from what Kerr is running.

One other note: there are times in a game (not including down the stretch, which was covered by HRB) where it doesn't look like the Cs are running offense. That's because teams are playing a lot more zone against the Cs and the Cs sometimes forget that to beat a zone, you have to get the ball into the middle so they just stand around the perimeter and whip the ball around.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I feel like you're just making the point I originally did, frankly.

I am sure Ime knows what an offense is---part of why I was excited about him is he likely would bring some Spurs concepts. But, as you do seem to recognize, they are not regularly doing it. They need to commit to it and implement it, not just philosophize it. That's the problem---they aren't regularly running any system and instead do different things seemingly nearly randomly. They are doing various things offensively---some faster movement, some penetration, some high post---as I noted originally. But there's no coherence or unifying approach.

That they don't have a plan against a zone is a good example of precisely what I've been arguing. As you note that is not about "gravity" for Tatum or Brown or their failure to develop. That is about having a plan and a philosophy. There's a bunch of examples of this kind of gap (some of which I noted, some others did) and those together reflect the lack of a clear system that the players understand and are trying to execute.

It's great to have players so good that defenses over-shift and adjust and that in and of itself. But you need to do that within an overall concept. Maybe Ime is working hard on that behind the scenes and the players won't do it; maybe the players haven't had enough real practice time; maybe they are deciding what they want to do given who is here....whatever the answer, the lack of it is a problem.

For those who subscribe to the Athletic there's a timely piece on this today: https://theathletic.com/3051965/2022/01/05/ime-udoka-seeks-offensive-variety-for-the-now-healthy-celtics-and-robert-williams-iii-is-the-key/

The net is that (in Weiss' view) health has been a big barrier---fair, for sure, though I'm less sure of its primacy---and that Ime recognizes they need to build more around the high-post setup we saw in the Phoenix game and use that to drive lineup tweaks (Grant starting, possibly) and create hand-offs, split-action, and such. I like what I read, and the challenge is implementing it in a way that gets them out of the iso-focused me/then/you stuff we've seen a lot of thus far. They need some more stuff and to be working off a similar view of what those things are.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think you're talking execution rather than system but YMMV. But just to circle back to where we came from, that's more on the players than the coach. Also, if Ime priotized getting the defense ready, and given the lack of practice time, installing his "system" but take more than his first season.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think you're talking execution rather than system but YMMV. But just to circle back to where we came from, that's more on the players than the coach. Also, if Ime priotized getting the defense ready, and given the lack of practice time, installing his "system" but take more than his first season.
if so, you could then tell me what the system is—can you?

That is the problem…neither can the players
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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if so, you could then tell me what the system is—can you?

That is the problem…neither can the players
I just said what system they are using. Ime is basically trying to implement Pops' 0.5 seconds system. As this article notes, the main principles are: "Get off the ball. Make the decision in 0.5 seconds. Play with pace."

You probably know this but just to point out, while there are certain sets that Ime likes to use to get the Cs into motion and pace, the way the offense plays depends a lot on the defense. - For example, against PHO they used a lot of 5-out sets with the bigs as ballhandlers that worked really well against that defense. However, if you watched the ORL game, Scal mentioned on the broadcast that they tried to do the same thing against ORL too but it didn't work because the defense that ORL played doesn't match up well with 5-out.

Still as the article I linked to notes that the idea is play quickly, have some motion off ball, make a decision, and then get people involved, and, more importantly, it's in the film sessions where Ime really gets his points across.

(BTW, this is a funny quote from Udoka from that article (bold added): "'It’s an ongoing thing,' Udoka told CLNS Media on Tuesday. 'The simple pass sometimes seems to be the hardest thing to make … (Gregg) Popovich showed Tony Parker film for 15 years of not getting off the ball. So it doesn’t happen overnight. If you have that scoring mentality, and you have the speed and you get downhill, it’s what you look to a lot, but sometimes you miss the simple pass.''")​
If you don't take my word for it, here's a CsBlog article (with clips!) that describes the system Ime is trying to use: https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/12/14/22834238/speed-and-execution-how-boston-celtics-found-their-groove-milwaukee-bucks-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
 

Leon Trotsky

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I agree with WBDC. There is clearly a system at work. I think the team does have difficulty shifting its strategy on the fly when the defense starts setting up differently. It looked to me that PHX saw the zone worked great against the C's the two previous games, tried it, and the C's countered perfectly with the bigs up top. But as WBDC said, it didn't work the same against ORL and the C's were very slow to adjust. We'll see if they can get better at that.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think we have a different picture of what is an offensive approach and what is tactics. I think the former drives the latter, but you do not need to agree. There's not 10 million approaches in the NBA, selecting prioritizing and executing amongst what all teams do is the essence of the approach in my view.

The coach himself in the article I linked was pretty clear they need to build in new things, and also work through how to execute them (which I'm happy to see!) That is in my view reasonable and appropriate and where they in fact are---still pretty early in figuring out what they want to do as well as how to do it in practice. The concepts of pass quickly, etc. are good...but limited. The latter part of that (tweaking how they execute) is always evolving, obviously, but there's a difference between 'we have a plan and need to adjust it' and 'we need to figure out how to operate out of the high post' which is where they are.

If you guys really think they have a clear and consistent approach today, I simply don't see it. Saying "they have an approach, we just can't tell because they don't execute it" to me embeds a very heroic assumption I don't see a basis for making.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Here's an article from October that discusses the changes Ime made: https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/analyzing-tactical-changes-boston-celtics-made-ime-udoka-compared-last-year

Note that Ime from what I understand wants to run the Spurs 0.5 second offense (i.e., either make a move or pass with 0.5 seconds). Which is not all that different from what Kerr is running.

One other note: there are times in a game (not including down the stretch, which was covered by HRB) where it doesn't look like the Cs are running offense. That's because teams are playing a lot more zone against the Cs and the Cs sometimes forget that to beat a zone, you have to get the ball into the middle so they just stand around the perimeter and whip the ball around.
Yes this brings us back to the summer/pre-season when Ime made it known that he would be playing HIS way rather than the best way to fit a system around his best players. This, and his lineup choices (Smart PG and 2BIGZ) is what took me from excited about the talent acquisition to hiding underneath the coffee table as the upcoming train wreck was going to create tremors in my household. How do I say I’m not shocked without saying I’m not shocked?

Anyway……I forget who the poster was but over the first week of the season he had posted some ball movement data (it may have been how long JT/JB) hold the ball, I don’t recall specifically, and I stated that this was normal out of the gate but once the season wore on these players would play their game. I know the numbers began adjusting in this direction in the second week but hadn’t seen an update since. I’m not sure which thread it was in either and I’m on the way to the airport to pick up in-laws…….it’s no wonder I drank last night.
 

tbrown_01923

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It's shocking how bad they are against the zone. I agree that recognition of it is slow, but even when they recognize it execution is horrible. This has to be on the coaching staff - no?

I have been traveling for the holidays and didn't see them smash the zone that one game. But boy the looked horrible against Orlando...
 

mauf

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Yikes, some kind of non-contact injury for Luka Doncic. Hopefully just a sprained ankle.

He is standing on the sideline joking with a teammate, so presumably not too serious. But damn, that was scary for a moment.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yikes, some kind of non-contact injury for Luka Doncic. Hopefully just a sprained ankle.

He is standing on the sideline joking with a teammate, so presumably not too serious. But damn, that was scary for a moment.
He turned his ankle. I think it’s same one that’s been bothering him. Doesn’t seem serious though.
 

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Toronto moves above .500 with a road win over the Bucks. Fourth straight win for the Raptors, who are starting to put some distance between themselves and the Celtics.
 

HomeRunBaker

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At regular speed you’ll see Lowry whip the ball to the ref. I don’t think that’s never not been an auto-ejection. Love the Lowry reaction like what did I do? Lol.
 

PedroKsBambino

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At regular speed you’ll see Lowry whip the ball to the ref. I don’t think that’s never not been an auto-ejection. Love the Lowry reaction like what did I do? Lol.
Surpriused you are defending that call--even though Lowry leads the league in sneaky-cheap plays and whining and I still can't defend that T. Given the angle I don't think he could have said something before the T etiher, though that I cannot know.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Surpriused you are defending that call--even though Lowry leads the league in sneaky-cheap plays and whining and I still can't defend that T. Given the angle I don't think he could have said something before the T etiher, though that I cannot know.
The video is purposely in slo-motion for effect to show that the ball wasn’t thrown hard at the official. When I saw it live, or at full speed on replay, it seemed like a no-brainer to me. My initial reaction was “Whoa wtf is Lowry doing?” I mean it was blatant but in slo-mo it looks like nothing.
 

Cellar-Door

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Surpriused you are defending that call--even though Lowry leads the league in sneaky-cheap plays and whining and I still can't defend that T. Given the angle I don't think he could have said something before the T etiher, though that I cannot know.
I think it should have been a T. You're (by rule) supposed to hand or bounce it to the ref, he FIRES that ball at him. There's a reason the Heat broadcast is showing you super slow mo.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think it should have been a T. You're (by rule) supposed to hand or bounce it to the ref, he FIRES that ball at him. There's a reason the Heat broadcast is showing you super slow mo.
I watched the ESPN video, which is full speed. I don't think it's even close to a T. I agree with the Twitter assessment that is "Refball".
 

Sam Ray Not

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C’mon … unfortunate coincidence, but zero chance the Wiz announcer was knowingly talking about KPJ’s dad having accidentally killed a four-year old girl. I’m not a professional announcer, obviously, but I kinda thought KPJ was Kevin Porter’s kid, too. Seems like a pretty natural mistake to make for a DC hoops fan. In a basketball context, you’re not remotely thinking about handguns when you say “pull the trigger.”

And now LeBron wants to end some dude’s career over this? Maybe he should mind his own business, or go back to equivocating about democracy in Hong Kong.
 

128

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C’mon … unfortunate coincidence, but zero chance the Wiz announcer was knowingly talking about KPJ’s dad having accidentally killed a four-year old girl. I’m not a professional announcer, obviously, but I kinda thought KPJ was Kevin Porter’s kid, too. Seems like a pretty natural mistake to make for a DC hoops fan. In a basketball context, you’re not remotely thinking about handguns when you say “pull the trigger.”

And now LeBron wants to end some dude’s career over this? Maybe he should mind his own business, or go back to equivocating about democracy in Hong Kong.
I grew up in Maryland and remember when Kevin Porter played for the Bullets. At first, I wondered if the Porters were related, but all it took was a Google search to learn they weren't. Not sure it's asking too much of an NBA play-by-play guy to put in the same 30 seconds of research.

That being said, this isn't LeBron's business.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I grew up in Maryland and remember when Kevin Porter played for the Bullets. At first, I wondered if the Porters were related, but all it took was a Google search to learn they weren't. Not sure it's asking too much of an NBA play-by-play guy to put in the same 30 seconds of research.

That being said, this isn't LeBron's business.
That’s fair, but absent KPJ’s dad’s tragic history — which I don’t think is common knowledge? — it would just have been a garden variety factual error of the type announcers make all the time.

Seems like Consor should just apologize deeply to KPJ for his ignorance of his family history, KPJ should accept, and everyone should move on with their lives. But alas, I know that’s not generally how it works when the twitter mob smells blood…
 

Kliq

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Everyone knows the Warriors are really good, but I can't believe how much better they are then they were last season. Last year they were pretty bad; Curry was playing incredibly well but anytime he wasn't in the game, or if he missed a game, the team was a complete disaster. Their offense was terrible (even with a vintage Steph pulling the strings, they were only 20th in offensive rating) and it seemed like nobody could do anything if Steph wasn't orchestrating it.

This year they are so much better on offense (up to 9th) and it hasn't been like they added a bunch of new personnel. Yes, it helps the Bjelica and Iguodala is really smart and understands how to move the ball in that system, but it just seems like all of the other guys have figured out how to play with Curry/Draymond and understand when to cut and how to move the ball in a way that suits everyone. It's a really impressive job by Kerr, who probably isn't getting enough recognition (this year at least).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Everyone knows the Warriors are really good, but I can't believe how much better they are then they were last season. Last year they were pretty bad; Curry was playing incredibly well but anytime he wasn't in the game, or if he missed a game, the team was a complete disaster. Their offense was terrible (even with a vintage Steph pulling the strings, they were only 20th in offensive rating) and it seemed like nobody could do anything if Steph wasn't orchestrating it.

This year they are so much better on offense (up to 9th) and it hasn't been like they added a bunch of new personnel. Yes, it helps the Bjelica and Iguodala is really smart and understands how to move the ball in that system, but it just seems like all of the other guys have figured out how to play with Curry/Draymond and understand when to cut and how to move the ball in a way that suits everyone. It's a really impressive job by Kerr, who probably isn't getting enough recognition (this year at least).
They definitely have it together this year but the schedule has greatly favored them thus far. There has to be regression coming and the test for them will be how they handle these losses and if incorporating Klay in (and others out) affects the team moving forward. It’s going to be interesting to see but if I had to guess I would say that we’ve seen a team that peaked early. Just my observation.
 

Sam Ray Not

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They definitely have it together this year but the schedule has greatly favored them thus far. There has to be regression coming and the test for them will be how they handle these losses and if incorporating Klay in (and others out) affects the team moving forward. It’s going to be interesting to see but if I had to guess I would say that we’ve seen a team that peaked early. Just my observation.
They’ve had the 5th toughest schedule in the league to date (tied with Sactown and Boston).

http://www.espn.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/sort/SOS

Against the other top teams in the league (Brooklyn, Chicago, Miami, Phoenix, Utah, Memphis; they’ve yet to play Milwaukee), they’re 7-2.
 
Last edited:

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Its really difficult to argue that the Warriors aren't the best team in the NBA at present given that all most of the freely available traditional data (W/L, net-rating etc etc) points in that direction. It doesn't mean anything as injuries or a decline in Curry's performance (Tatum fans take note of Warriors Twitter these days...) or a host of other issues may derail this team from doing anything in the playoffs. However, if you are dismissing their performance you are arguing against a mountain of data that tells you they aren't just good. They are arguably a great team and may get better if Thompson can be productive during his re-integration period.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Everyone knows the Warriors are really good, but I can't believe how much better they are then they were last season. Last year they were pretty bad; Curry was playing incredibly well but anytime he wasn't in the game, or if he missed a game, the team was a complete disaster. Their offense was terrible (even with a vintage Steph pulling the strings, they were only 20th in offensive rating) and it seemed like nobody could do anything if Steph wasn't orchestrating it.

This year they are so much better on offense (up to 9th) and it hasn't been like they added a bunch of new personnel. Yes, it helps the Bjelica and Iguodala is really smart and understands how to move the ball in that system, but it just seems like all of the other guys have figured out how to play with Curry/Draymond and understand when to cut and how to move the ball in a way that suits everyone. It's a really impressive job by Kerr, who probably isn't getting enough recognition (this year at least).
They’re actually *down* to 9th in offense after last night’s shitshow in Dallas. They were #4 before last night, and as high as #1 earlier in the season with their soft early schedule. Their D meanwhile remains #1 in the league by a mile, as it has been all season.

You touched on a bunch of the key improvements from last season, but left out a few: (1) the additions of Otto Porter Jr. and Gary Payton II, who have been huge for then on both ends of the floor and on the glass (where they’ve weirdly been killing it, despite running out 6-6 Green and 6-9 Looney as their primary bigs); (2) the big leap forward by Wiggins, who’s putting up .592 true shooting including **.434 from 3** while locking down the opponent’s best player every night; (3) the continued blossoming of Poole; (4) a rejuvenated Draymond who for the first time in two years feels like he something to play for; (5) the addition-by-subtraction of fun but inexperienced and/or non Kerrballish guys like Oubre, Paschall, Wiseman, and Mannion.

On the flipside is the recent crashing to earth of Steph, who over the last few weeks (and especially the last two games) seems to be wilting under the weight of some combo the overhyped Ray Allen chase, the long wait for Klay, his parents’ messy breakup, and carrying the team amid covid absences to everyone on the team except him. He has dark bags under his eyes and his shot seems to have picked up whatever virus has infected the shot of Tatum and Lillard in the early going. He’s getting a much needed night off tonight in New Orleans.

Combine last year’s Steph and this year’s Wiggs-Green-Looney-Poole-Porter-JTA-Bjelica-Iguodala wrecking crew, and the Ws might be even more dominant they are. I’m guessing he (along with Tatum, and Dame) will snap out of it soon enough. One more game without Klay…
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
23,057
Its really difficult to argue that the Warriors aren't the best team in the NBA at present given that all most of the freely available traditional data (W/L, net-rating etc etc) points in that direction. It doesn't mean anything as injuries or a decline in Curry's performance (Tatum fans take note of Warriors Twitter these days...) or a host of other issues may derail this team from doing anything in the playoffs. However, if you are dismissing their performance you are arguing against a mountain of data that tells you they aren't just good. They are arguably a great team and may get better if Thompson can be productive during his re-integration period.
Of course nobody is arguing that. As I said above I feel they have over performed their talent level and don’t expect Klay to help the team and could very well hurt them by losing the usage of others who as you mention have performed very well.
 

Kliq

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They’re actually *down* to 9th in offense after last night’s shitshow in Dallas. They were #4 before last night, and as high as #1 earlier in the season with their soft early schedule. Their D meanwhile remains #1 in the league by a mile, as it has been all season.

You touched on a bunch of the key improvements from last season, but left out a few: (1) the additions of Otto Porter Jr. and Gary Payton II, who have been huge for then on both ends of the floor and on the glass (where they’ve weirdly been killing it, despite running out 6-6 Green and 6-9 Looney as their primary bigs); (2) the big leap forward by Wiggins, who’s putting up .592 true shooting including **.434 from 3** while locking down the opponent’s best player every night; (3) the continued blossoming of Poole; (4) a rejuvenated Draymond who for the first time in two years feels like he something to play for; (5) the addition-by-subtraction of fun but inexperienced and/or non Kerrballish guys like Oubre, Paschall, Wiseman, and Mannion.

On the flipside is the recent crashing to earth of Steph, who over the last few weeks (and especially the last two games) seems to be wilting under the weight of some combo the overhyped Ray Allen chase, the long wait for Klay, his parents’ messy breakup, and carrying the team amid covid absences to everyone on the team except him. He has dark bags under his eyes and his shot seems to have picked up whatever virus has infected the shot of Tatum and Lillard in the early going. He’s getting a much needed night off tonight in New Orleans.

Combine last year’s Steph and this year’s Wiggs-Green-Looney-Poole-Porter-JTA-Bjelica-Iguodala wrecking crew, and the Ws might be even more dominant they are. I’m guessing he (along with Tatum, and Dame) will snap out of it soon enough. One more game without Klay…
Yeah, Curry is getting a lot of MVP hype because his team is much better, but his numbers are down pretty much across the board from last year. He's down to only 42% shooting from the floor and his efg% is 54%, his lowest total since his rookie season and significantly below his 58% career average.

The defense is great this season but they were fifth in defensive rating last season, so they've always been good on that end. It's the cutting and offensive involvement of the non-Curry players that I find to be really impressive.
 

Ale Xander

killed off Vin Scully
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Oct 31, 2013
45,145
C’mon … unfortunate coincidence, but zero chance the Wiz announcer was knowingly talking about KPJ’s dad having accidentally killed a four-year old girl. I’m not a professional announcer, obviously, but I kinda thought KPJ was Kevin Porter’s kid, too. Seems like a pretty natural mistake to make for a DC hoops fan. In a basketball context, you’re not remotely thinking about handguns when you say “pull the trigger.”

And now LeBron wants to end some dude’s career over this? Maybe he should mind his own business, or go back to equivocating about democracy in Hong Kong.
You're probably right, it was not a pot shot at either KP, but a Washington Bullets announcer should know better than that, and be more sensitive to possible misfirings.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Apr 17, 2003
26,750
Everyone knows the Warriors are really good, but I can't believe how much better they are then they were last season. Last year they were pretty bad; Curry was playing incredibly well but anytime he wasn't in the game, or if he missed a game, the team was a complete disaster. Their offense was terrible (even with a vintage Steph pulling the strings, they were only 20th in offensive rating) and it seemed like nobody could do anything if Steph wasn't orchestrating it.

This year they are so much better on offense (up to 9th) and it hasn't been like they added a bunch of new personnel. Yes, it helps the Bjelica and Iguodala is really smart and understands how to move the ball in that system, but it just seems like all of the other guys have figured out how to play with Curry/Draymond and understand when to cut and how to move the ball in a way that suits everyone. It's a really impressive job by Kerr, who probably isn't getting enough recognition (this year at least).
Zach Lowe noted the other day that they were 15-5 in their last 20 games last year and that coincided with shifting the rotation to focus on guys who could play their system - rather than guys thye were trying to develop or who couldn't really manage the system. That very much fits with what they've done this year, and I fully beleive their system is a real advantage as teams are not used to it.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
18,809
Saddiq Bey slipped a little his last game but has been a monster his last 10: 38.6 mpg, 23.6 points, 8.0 rebounds, 3.0 assists on .433/.379/.929 shooting.

Cade's back and was strong in his first 2 games, averaging 17.5 points, 7.0 assists, 3.0 rebounds, going 14/27 from the field and 7/16 from 3. Over his last 12: 33.6 mpg, 18.5 points, 6.0 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals on .457/.440/.826 shooting.

Hamidou's last 8: 18.8 points, 7.6 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 2.8 steals, on .524/.250/.516 shooting. I really wanted the C's to go after Hamidou last year. Not sure if he'll ever put it together but he's an athletic freak and was only 22 at the time.


Also, who is the front runner for ROY atm? Barnes or Mobley? I can see Cade making a run for it. His team sucking won't help but he'll be able to put up numbers. Franz probably has an outside shot too.