2020 Pats: General/Non-QB Off-Season Discussion

[Soxy]

Wow. I don't see it.

He was the Patriots starting center last season. So, teams seeing him as a guy who could start for them at center isn't really a controversial statement, I don't think.

Now, when I read things like he could get a $10+ mil per year deal from some team? That seems like a poor decision, at best, and probably kind of insane. Ted Karras? Like..... really? He's versatile, I guess, but can't you just draft and develop a Ted Karras-type for way cheaper? He seems like nothing more than a depth/rotation guy, not a difference maker.

Thuney is as good as gone. They already paid Mason, there's no way they're tying up that much money on two guards. Not that they would even want to, but it looks to me like they can't get out of Mason's deal until at least after the 2021 season, and after 2022 is probably more realistic, unless Mason really declines even further next season.

 

[ehaz]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/28/tom-bradys-not-the-only-sought-after-patriots-free-agent/
"According to Jeff Howe of TheAthletic.com, the talk around the Scouting Combine is that Patriots guard Joe Thuney could command $14 million to $15 million per year in free agency. That could make him the highest-paid guard in the league, depending on where he falls in that range.

Thuney is No. 18 on PFT’s Free Agent Top 100, and the 12th ranked non-quarterback on that list.

Howe also reports significant interest in center Ted Karras, which could push him near $10 million a year. The Patriots are hoping that David Andrews returns from the blood clots that kept him off the field last year, so they may not get in a bidding war for Karras."



This is why I think BB goes back to OL for a hard look in the 1st or 2nd round. Real chance that both Thuney and Karras leave.

 

[Harry Hooper]

He was the Patriots starting center last season. So, teams seeing him as a guy who could start for them at center isn't really a controversial statement, I don't think.

Right, but someone had to be the starter once Andrews was out. Reminds me of how a very mediocre closer from a last-place team In MLB would be a free agent reliever and would draw an inordinate amount of attention because he'd been sprinkled with magical closer dust.

 

[tims4wins]

Surprised this hasn't been linked yet

View: https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1233439357631160321


Certainly explains a lot. If Sanu can get healthy, it actually gives me more optimism that he will be better in 2020 than he was in 2019 post-injury. But if he can't get healthy, then obviously the Pats need to cut him.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Surprised this hasn't been linked yet

Didn't fit the "he sucks" narrative

 

[Cotillion]

Surprised this hasn't been linked yet

View: https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1233439357631160321


Certainly explains a lot. If Sanu can get healthy, it actually gives me more optimism that he will be better in 2020 than he was in 2019 post-injury. But if he can't get healthy, then obviously the Pats need to cut him.

That's umpossible…. he just sucks... a high ankle sprain effecting a receiver's ability to get separation and distance by cutting hard and fast on his feet. How does a high ankle sprain explain his lack of pro... oh...

 

[E5 Yaz]

Adding "Cotillion" to the list of those who have me on Ignore

 

[Cotillion]

Adding "Cotillion" to the list of those who have me on Ignore

Nah... just on the list that loves to throw in a Ralph Wiggum quote whenever I can.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Adding "Cotillion" to the list of those who have me on Ignore

Maybe he was just trying to honor Sanu by being 2 steps too slow.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Maybe he was just trying to honor Sanu by being 2 steps too slow.

I should have caught that ... which makes me somehwat like Sanu.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Surprised this hasn't been linked yet

View: https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1233439357631160321


Certainly explains a lot. If Sanu can get healthy, it actually gives me more optimism that he will be better in 2020 than he was in 2019 post-injury. But if he can't get healthy, then obviously the Pats need to cut him.

How frustrating last year was. Returning a punt I think. Right?

 

[streeter88]

What I want to know is why hasn’t he had surgery already? Healing process will start that much later.

Fake edit: didn’t Edelman have his surgery literally a week after the playoff loss? Game was Jan 5th, he was arrested for car jumping on the 12th, then had surgery mid the following week.

 

[tims4wins]

What I want to know is why hasn’t he had surgery already? Healing process will start that much later.

Fake edit: didn’t Edelman have his surgery literally a week after the playoff loss? Game was Jan 5th, he was arrested for car jumping on the 12th, then had surgery mid the following week.

As per Schefter’s tweet it sounds like they tried to let it heal on its own.

 

[BaseballJones]

As per Schefter’s tweet it sounds like they tried to let it heal on its own.

Yeah I mean, ideally you don't want to have surgery. If things can heal on their own, that's always preferable. They must have figured it's worth trying to let it heal naturally, and if it doesn't, there's a date by which they need to have surgery in order for him to be ready for the season.

And yeah, I've been pro-Sanu all along, defending him here as a legitimately good receiver, so I'm really hoping that the ankle was the primary reason for the lack of production here. If he is back to full health for next year, that's a very nice receiver they'll have. Not a Moss or Harrison or TO, but a nice receiver.

 

[streeter88]

As per Schefter’s tweet it sounds like they tried to let it heal on its own.

Yep, reading comprehension 101. Completely missed the first clause of the first sentence. (Head smack). Thanks

 

[RedOctober3829]

From Curran's latest article on Brady.

"The Patriots are already active in overhauling their offense and, while the timetable for Brady becoming a free agent makes it tough for the team to make seismic moves to improve, don’t be surprised if the team is busy on the trade market before free agency opens."

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/tom-brady-and-new-england-patriots-are-not-cold-war

 

[RedOctober3829]

View: https://twitter.com/FieldYates/status/1234569020118052864

 

[DJnVa]

So why's he on the block?

 

[RedOctober3829]

So why's he on the block?

Only possible way I can see why is they don't want to pay him another big contract.

 

[SMU_Sox]

@DJnVa Red’s right. The Panthers are going through a reboot. Cam has one year left and they need help all over the roster. The rumor is they are out of the big 3-4 QBs because they feel like they don’t have enough in place to take and develop a QB. This is one of the best drafts in a long time for OL and WR. So get as much of a haul as you can for Turner and hit the reboot button. I think they take an OT at 7 or Simmons to replace Luke. A 2nd round pick in this years draft could get you a borderline first round receiver. Would Rhule want to work with Mims again? With another 2nd they should be able to take a high end IOL like a Matt Hennessy or maybe Cesar Ruiz. Josh Jones or the second wave of OTs are there too. Point is that if you wanted to rebuild your OL and receiving corps this is the year. Edit: spelling

 

[RedOctober3829]

This would be an interesting addition to the D-line. Wolfe is coming off a career-high 7 sacks in just 12 games.

View: https://twitter.com/AllbrightNFL/status/1234905196473380864

 

[Van Everyman]

JMac back:
View: https://twitter.com/benvolin/status/1235308730373332992?s=21

 

[NomarsFool]

Given how vital the OL is to the whole offensive game, I think I'd give strong consideration to using the franchise tag on Thuney (not that I think Bill will). With Wynn, Thuney, and Andrews you have at least a good foundation and you give Sony Michel a chance to see if he can have a bounceback year and you also give Stidham some protection (which he will need). Since the Patriots are paying Stidham <$1 million, instead of $23 million on Brady, they have some money to spend on the O-line. I just they don't go out and spend $15 million on some retread piece of crap QB to compete with Stidham.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Given how vital the OL is to the whole offensive game, I think I'd give strong consideration to using the franchise tag on Thuney (not that I think Bill will). With Wynn, Thuney, and Andrews you have at least a good foundation and you give Sony Michel a chance to see if he can have a bounceback year and you also give Stidham some protection (which he will need). Since the Patriots are paying Stidham <$1 million, instead of $23 million on Brady, they have some money to spend on the O-line. I just they don't go out and spend $15 million on some retread piece of crap QB to compete with Stidham.

Regardless of if Brady stays or goes, they need to upgrade the TE and WR positions. The cap space is better spent on those areas and rely on the draft to get reinforcements along the IOL. Remember they also have Cajuste and Froholdt already in the fold as well.

 

[Soxy]

What about Marvin Jones as a possible trade target at receiver? Just saw his name in an Athletic piece speculating on possible trade candidates. I believe the Patriots were in on him last time he was a free agent.

Jones has had injury issues and is turning 30, but he's been an effective, productive player whenever he's been healthy. Only has one year left on his deal at $6.5 mil. Can't imagine he'd cost all that much draft pick capital.

If Brady insists on another vet receiver, I think a guy like Jones is a reasonable option. With as many holes as they have, and as little cap space as they have, I don't see them making a huge splash at receiver. Plus, this is a loaded draft for wideouts. Have to imagine the Pats are taking at least one. If they bring on a vet, would think it's a buy low kind of player with upside.

 

[NomarsFool]

Supposedly this is a "historic" draft for wide receivers. A real shame the Pats don't have that 2nd round pick:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfl-drafts-historic-wide-receiver-class-could-suppress-free-agency-market-for-pass-catchers/ar-BB10ZMka?ocid=spartanntp
The franchise tag is just a 1 year thing, right? So, if Brady goes and they have cap space, spending some of it on Thuney to make sure they have a decent line for Stidham doesn't seem like a terrible idea. Draft a WR, sign a TE, franchise Thuney, Andrews comes back. That could be a decent team. Heck, they could draft two WRs.

 

[BaseballJones]

Supposedly this is a "historic" draft for wide receivers. A real shame the Pats don't have that 2nd round pick:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfl-drafts-historic-wide-receiver-class-could-suppress-free-agency-market-for-pass-catchers/ar-BB10ZMka?ocid=spartanntp
The franchise tag is just a 1 year thing, right? So, if Brady goes and they have cap space, spending some of it on Thuney to make sure they have a decent line for Stidham doesn't seem like a terrible idea. Draft a WR, sign a TE, franchise Thuney, Andrews comes back. That could be a decent team. Heck, they could draft two WRs.

It's already more than a "decent" team. The Pats went 12-4 this past year, should have been 13-3 with HFA in the divisional round after getting a bye. They had the best defense in the NFL.

But you make some other good points.

 

[Super Nomario]

The franchise tag is just a 1 year thing, right? So, if Brady goes and they have cap space, spending some of it on Thuney to make sure they have a decent line for Stidham doesn't seem like a terrible idea. Draft a WR, sign a TE, franchise Thuney, Andrews comes back. That could be a decent team. Heck, they could draft two WRs.

The problem with the franchise tag for Thuney is that there's no guard franchise tag; it's OL. So he'd be getting the average of the top OT contracts.

It's already more than a "decent" team. The Pats went 12-4 this past year, should have been 13-3 with HFA in the divisional round after getting a bye. They had the best defense in the NFL.

But you make some other good points.

Minus Brady is a big deal. Three of their top four in 2019 offensive snaps (including Brady and Thuney) and three of the top four in defensive snaps are FA.

 

[BaseballJones]

Minus Brady is a big deal. Three of their top four in 2019 offensive snaps (including Brady and Thuney) and three of the top four in defensive snaps are FA.

Yeah believe it or not, I missed the part of the post where Brady is gone. I skimmed it and didn't see it. My bad.

But still...any team with a good OL (which they'd have), good RBs (which they'd have), and an excellent defense....unless QB is a disaster, that's still a decent team.

 

[Super Nomario]

Yeah believe it or not, I missed the part of the post where Brady is gone. I skimmed it and didn't see it. My bad.

But still...any team with a good OL (which they'd have), good RBs (which they'd have), and an excellent defense....unless QB is a disaster, that's still a decent team.

I think there's a real possibility that the passing game is a disaster without Brady (it wasn't great with him in 2019) and a real chance that minus four defensive starters (DMac, KVN, Collins, Shelton) the D declines from excellent to merely good. Then we're basically the 2019 Steelers.

 

[BaseballJones]

I think there's a real possibility that the passing game is a disaster without Brady (it wasn't great with him in 2019) and a real chance that minus four defensive starters (DMac, KVN, Collins, Shelton) the D declines from excellent to merely good. Then we're basically the 2019 Steelers.

You know they'll keep some of their guys, and/or replace them with probably pretty good players with the money that's freed up, right? QB may be a different issue.

Also: the 2019 Steelers were basically the definition of "decent" at 8-8. (which, of course, is not what I'm hoping for from the 2020 Patriots)

 

[pappymojo]

Just to clarify, the 2019 Steelers would have been a playoff team under the proposed CBA.

 

[Super Nomario]

You know they'll keep some of their guys, and/or replace them with probably pretty good players with the money that's freed up, right?

What money that's freed up?

They will add pieces. Unfortunately, Thuney, Van Noy, Collins, and Karras were four of the best bargains on the team, and Brady and DMac are the biggest names and captains on their respective sides of the ball. It's going to be tough sledding to replace that, and they are handicapped by the CBA rules and a ton of dead money for Brady and AB.

 

[BaseballJones]

What money that's freed up?

They will add pieces. Unfortunately, Thuney, Van Noy, Collins, and Karras were four of the best bargains on the team, and Brady and DMac are the biggest names and captains on their respective sides of the ball. It's going to be tough sledding to replace that, and they are handicapped by the CBA rules and a ton of dead money for Brady and AB.

So....you're pretty down on the 2020 Pats then, I take it.

 

[Super Nomario]

So....you're pretty down on the 2020 Pats then, I take it.

Definitely, if Brady leaves. They're almost certainly going to be worse on paper entering 2020 than they were entering 2019, but maybe a great draft and big-time improvement from the 2019 draftees plus a couple savvy moves gets them in 2018/2019 territory. But if Brady leaves and Stidham isn't a stud right away, we're in big trouble.

 

[RedOctober3829]

View: https://twitter.com/j_collins91/status/1237478575147831297

 

[RedOctober3829]

Pats have gained 2 3rd round picks(#98 and #100) and 2 6th round picks(#212 and #213) as their compensatory picks.

View: https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1237482123910623233

 

[BaseballJones]

Two third round picks is NICE

 

[tims4wins]

This was what we expected, yes?

 

[nattysez]

GM Bill really needs to work his magic this draft, especially if they lose an OL or two to FA.

1st - 23rd
3rd - 87th
3rd - 98th
3rd - 100th
4th - 125th
6th - 198th
6th - 207th
6th - 212th
6th - 213th
7th - 233rd
7th - 238th
7th - 244th

 

[RedOctober3829]

This was what we expected, yes?

I actually thought they'd get the top comp pick, but 2 of the top 4 is not bad. 4 top 100 picks now.

 

[tims4wins]

I actually thought they'd get the top comp pick, but 2 of the top 4 is not bad. 4 top 100 picks now.

Yeah I can’t complain about 98 vs 97

 

[BigSoxFan]

Wouldn’t mind moving back 10-15 spots from #23 and picking up another 3rd.

 

[BunnzMcGinty]

Wouldn’t mind moving back 10-15 spots from #23 and picking up another 3rd.

BB will probably turn that #23 into two thirds or a late second and a fourth or some shit. Whenever he ACTUALLY picks in the first round I'm legitimately shocked.

 

[NomarsFool]

The problem with the franchise tag for Thuney is that there's no guard franchise tag; it's OL. So he'd be getting the average of the top OT contracts.

My hypothesis would be that LT's dramatically inflate the overall OT contract numbers, but it looked like the expectations for Thuney on the open market and the cost of the franchise tag didn't look that different.

I just really don't want to go through another season with the offensive line as horrible as it was last season. Andrews over Karras (assuming he is able to come back) is an upgrade, but if we lose Thuney we are probably no better than last year. The o-line is just so vital to both the passing and running game.

 

[Super Nomario]

My hypothesis would be that LT's dramatically inflate the overall OT contract numbers, but it looked like the expectations for Thuney on the open market and the cost of the franchise tag didn't look that different.

I just really don't want to go through another season with the offensive line as horrible as it was last season. Andrews over Karras (assuming he is able to come back) is an upgrade, but if we lose Thuney we are probably no better than last year. The o-line is just so vital to both the passing and running game.

I think the OL was fine once Wynn came back; the problem was the WR/TE were awful. No team got less production out of TE and the non-Edelman WR were just a disaster after Gordon went on IR and Sanu got hurt. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to hang on to Thuney; it's just not a priority for me given the other needs, how much they've recently invested in OL (Wynn, Cajuste, Froholdt in the last two drafts), and how relatively easy it is to find IOL (Thuney was a 3rd, Mason a 4th, Andrews undrafted).

 

[NomarsFool]

I agree once Wynn came back there was a huge improvement in the line. I wouldn't classify it as necessarily good, however, as the running game still sucked. How much of that was the O-line vs. lack of a FB or TEs, I have no idea. If Andrews comes back, that's an upgrade over Karras. I'm just a bit concerned we then have a downgrade at Thuney's guard spot, and what if Andrews doesn't come back? I have no idea how easy it is to find some good O-line help in the draft. The Pats thankfully have a lot of 3rd round picks (Darn you, Sanu for no 2nd) but they certainly have a lot of holes as well.

 

[Super Nomario]

I agree once Wynn came back there was a huge improvement in the line. I wouldn't classify it as necessarily good, however, as the running game still sucked. How much of that was the O-line vs. lack of a FB or TEs, I have no idea. If Andrews comes back, that's an upgrade over Karras. I'm just a bit concerned we then have a downgrade at Thuney's guard spot, and what if Andrews doesn't come back? I have no idea how easy it is to find some good O-line help in the draft. The Pats thankfully have a lot of 3rd round picks (Darn you, Sanu for no 2nd) but they certainly have a lot of holes as well.

The run game was also better late; Sony averaged 4.2 YPC after Week 8 (3.3 before; woof).

Thuney to whoever will definitely be a downgrade, and they do need another guy with C versatility given Andrews' health and Karras / Ferentz both hitting FA, but I can't see $14 MM on a G when you've got four defensive starters to replace and desperately need TE/WR help.

EDIT: I'll add ... if the CBA passes and the 30% rule goes away, I'm all for re-signing Thuney on a deal that keeps his Y1 hit low ($6MM?) and pushes bigger hits out into future years. He's a great Patriot - good vs run and pass, can play LT in a pinch, never misses a snap, etc.

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

Wouldn’t mind moving back 10-15 spots from #23 and picking up another 3rd.

Neither would I. I love doing mock drafts over at fanspeak and did one yesterday where Jordan Love and Justin Herbert were both still on the board at 23, which just screamed trade back to me (unless Bill liked one of those guys enough to take them). Picking up an early/mid 3rd would be good value to move back that far.

I also wouldn't mind looking at packaging a couple of the 3rds to move up. #87+ 98 or 100 likely gets you up to the top of the 3rd in the 65-67 range. Not having a 2nd round pick leaves the team a big gap between their 1st and 3rd pick I'd like to bridge. This isn't a Bill move- he'd probably prefer 2 guys in the 87-100 range over one in the 65-67 range, but they've got the ammo to move up if they like a guy who slips past the 2nd round. They'd still have 98 or 100 at the end of the 3rd, as well.

I think we'll see the Pats move up and down throughout the draft. They've got a ton of picks. So with that said, Bill will likely stand pat and draft a bunch of guys I know nothing about to drive me crazy.

 

[NomarsFool]

The team definitely needs to get younger, so I’d be plenty happy with them drafting all the best available players in the 3rd. I’m no draft expert, but I feel like you still get pretty decent players in the 3rd. Minor caveat to the above is they MUST draft either a WR or TE (if not both) in the first three rounds, in my opinion.