2020 Pats: General/Non-QB Off-Season Discussion

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
20,379
A Scud Away from Hell
This hurts but I also wish Scar live a hundred years.

Thank you, future Hall of Famer. Possibly the best positional coach ever not to have been a HC.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
9,769
Agreed. But...there are other good O-line coaches out there. They even won a Super Bowl with Gugs.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
20,379
A Scud Away from Hell

brandonchristensen

mad photochops
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2012
26,271
He was on Pat McCafee YouTube show. He reiterated his wish to set up his son (named Trae Ledgend Van Noy) for life. Didn't sound like he was going to give a discount. Obviously, I hope a deal can be made out between KVN and BB.
I feel like he could do that with any amount
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
41,916
Probably not thread-worthy, but still Pats related--Nick Underhill will no longer be covering the Patriots for The Athletic.
 

cournoyer

lurker
Dec 11, 2012
173
Enfield, Connecticut
I'm not sure how I missed this but it really annoys me. I like Doug a lot but I'm so sick of NFL media coverage recently. Particularly on Twitter. The Brady coverage has been so ridiculous with regards to where he's going / where he's ending up. I know this isn't the Brady thread but to me it's more about media speculation. People like to throw stuff at the wall and hope it sticks more than usual these past few years.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
20,379
A Scud Away from Hell
I'm not sure how I missed this but it really annoys me. I like Doug a lot but I'm so sick of NFL media coverage recently. Particularly on Twitter. The Brady coverage has been so ridiculous with regards to where he's going / where he's ending up. I know this isn't the Brady thread but to me it's more about media speculation. People like to throw stuff at the wall and hope it sticks more than usual these past few years.
Not sure what "news" can be had at this point in the season. Frankly, throwing out DA's name echos my feeling that Pats should have brought him back last year.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
46,343
deep inside Guido territory
The problem is this: why would Minnesota trade Diggs at this point? They have a lot of ways to create cap space by releasing other players such as Linval Joseph($10.4 million), Riley Reiff, and Xavier Rhodes(both between 8 and 9 million).
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
9,769
The problem is this: why would Minnesota trade Diggs at this point? They have a lot of ways to create cap space by releasing other players such as Linval Joseph($10.4 million), Riley Reiff, and Xavier Rhodes(both between 8 and 9 million).
Lots of excellent receivers available in the first round. Plus a lot of freed up cap space can address other needs as well.

Of course, the Patriots could do the same thing but they just did this with Harry last year and BB MUST know that he doesn't have a great track record drafting WRs. Plus, Brady would rather work with quality veterans than break in rookies.

So it makes sense for both teams.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
25,099
Hingham, MA
The problem is this: why would Minnesota trade Diggs at this point? They have a lot of ways to create cap space by releasing other players such as Linval Joseph($10.4 million), Riley Reiff, and Xavier Rhodes(both between 8 and 9 million).
They are at like -$12M in cap space. Even cutting all 3 of those guys may not be enough to field a team in 2020.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
25,099
Hingham, MA
Lots of excellent receivers available in the first round. Plus a lot of freed up cap space can address other needs as well.

Of course, the Patriots could do the same thing but they just did this with Harry last year and BB MUST know that he doesn't have a great track record drafting WRs. Plus, Brady would rather work with quality veterans than break in rookies.

So it makes sense for both teams.
Pats could trade Harry + a mid round pick... if the Vikings like Harry. I'd still give up a first plus extra if they don't
 

Average Game James

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,950
The problem is this: why would Minnesota trade Diggs at this point? They have a lot of ways to create cap space by releasing other players such as Linval Joseph($10.4 million), Riley Reiff, and Xavier Rhodes(both between 8 and 9 million).
Cap space aside, MIN is a run heavy team, so having Diggs and Thielen is maybe not the best use of resources. Add in Diggs’ apparent unhappiness in MIN and a need to create cap space, and a package of a 1st rounder+ could look appealing. With even mediocre receivers cracking $10mn, the Pats wouldn’t be the only team interested, so I’d imagine the price is high.
 

Cotillion

lurker
Jun 11, 2019
623
With still plenty of cutting needed as you need buffer space during a season 3-5 million for injuries and something like 3 million or so to sign a normal draft class.
And that would still leave them really hamstrung.
 

Average Game James

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,950
Interesting target, depending on the draft pick cost - he was the #25 pick two years ago, but sits 3rd on the Ravens depth chart (though Andrews, Boyle, and Hurst all saw meaningful snaps). Per PFF, he grades out in the same area as Henry and Ebron, and a bit weaker than Hooper (but similar receiver grade), though the bulk of his value is as a receiver with mediocre marks as a run blocker. If SMU’s reservations about the TE class match what the Pats think and they don’t want to spend $7mn+ on a FA, Hurst could end up being a better use of draft capital. 2 years of control at minimal cap cost ($1.5mn and $2.0mn guaranteed base salary in 2020-21).
 

SoxinSeattle

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 6, 2003
1,846
Here
Interesting target, depending on the draft pick cost - he was the #25 pick two years ago, but sits 3rd on the Ravens depth chart (though Andrews, Boyle, and Hurst all saw meaningful snaps). Per PFF, he grades out in the same area as Henry and Ebron, and a bit weaker than Hooper (but similar receiver grade), though the bulk of his value is as a receiver with mediocre marks as a run blocker. If SMU’s reservations about the TE class match what the Pats think and they don’t want to spend $7mn+ on a FA, Hurst could end up being a better use of draft capital. 2 years of control at minimal cap cost ($1.5mn and $2.0mn guaranteed base salary in 2020-21).
They don't have a second so does a third get this done? Third and seventh?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
25,099
Hingham, MA
I won't be convinced until he is seen renting a car at Logan. Seriously though I'm sure he's just consulting and/or helping with this one last thing.
I didn't mean to imply that he is back coaching. I just take any help / consulting services as a positive.
 

Soxy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2008
5,762
Interesting target, depending on the draft pick cost - he was the #25 pick two years ago, but sits 3rd on the Ravens depth chart (though Andrews, Boyle, and Hurst all saw meaningful snaps). Per PFF, he grades out in the same area as Henry and Ebron, and a bit weaker than Hooper (but similar receiver grade), though the bulk of his value is as a receiver with mediocre marks as a run blocker. If SMU’s reservations about the TE class match what the Pats think and they don’t want to spend $7mn+ on a FA, Hurst could end up being a better use of draft capital. 2 years of control at minimal cap cost ($1.5mn and $2.0mn guaranteed base salary in 2020-21).
This discussion of Hayden Hurst reminded me of this story on him that I read just a few days ago. Apparently, he tried to commit suicide when he was in college. He had some serious depression that seemingly was triggered after failing as a minor league baseball player in the Pirates' system. Now, he's speaking publicly about his mental health struggles. If nothing else, seems like a good dude from a good family.

They don't have a second so does a third get this done? Third and seventh?
He would need to be paired with a better blocking TE, but if the Pats like him and think he would be a system fit, I'd probably give up a 4th or 5th rd pick for him. Will get two cheap years to see what he can do. I know he was a first round pick not long ago, but he's a backup, catch-first TE who has only caught 43 passes in two years. He's expendable to the Ravens because he can't block as well as Boyle, and he's not as good a pass-catcher as Andrews (who saw 59 more targets than Hurst, despite playing the same number of snaps). I think a third round pick would be too rich. If somebody else wants to pay that price, good for them.

Fwiw (maybe nothing), Jags may be a bit more motivated since he's a local kid.

 

Average Game James

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,950
He would need to be paired with a better blocking TE, but if the Pats like him and think he would be a system fit, I'd probably give up a 4th or 5th rd pick for him. Will get two cheap years to see what he can do. I know he was a first round pick not long ago, but he's a backup, catch-first TE who has only caught 43 passes in two years. He's expendable to the Ravens because he can't block as well as Boyle, and he's not as good a pass-catcher as Andrews (who saw 59 more targets than Hurst, despite playing the same number of snaps). I think a third round pick would be too rich. If somebody else wants to pay that price, good for them.
I honestly have very little ability to judge NFL trade value, but a 4th or 5th rounder feels like a pretty cheap flier for a guy who has demonstrated actual NFL ability. He’s 3rd on the Ravens depth chart, but a bit unique in that their TE depth chart is fairly stacked. Given where decent free agent options are going to be paid, a 3rd for him and 2 cheap years seems reasonable to me and I wouldn’t be at all upset if Bill did that. Of course, since I’d do that, the real cost is probably higher...
 

Soxy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2008
5,762
I honestly have very little ability to judge NFL trade value, but a 4th or 5th rounder feels like a pretty cheap flier for a guy who has demonstrated actual NFL ability. He’s 3rd on the Ravens depth chart, but a bit unique in that their TE depth chart is fairly stacked. Given where decent free agent options are going to be paid, a 3rd for him and 2 cheap years seems reasonable to me and I wouldn’t be at all upset if Bill did that. Of course, since I’d do that, the real cost is probably higher...
I'm in the same boat on judging trade value. A 3rd just feels like where I would likely draw the line. Seems like I'd rather have the third round guy at a cheap price for 4 years than Hurst for 2 cheap years. But, the Pats should be desperate at that position, and the draft class sounds less than promising at TE. So, maybe I'm way off and the market for Hurst would yield the Ravens a better pick than I imagine.

The Ravens are stacked at TE, but Hurst still hasn't really done much in his two years. Any team that trades for him is paying for projection rather than production. He's clearly worth more to somebody else besides the Ravens, no doubt, but I think other teams will say some version of: "I'm not giving you a third round pick for your third-string tight end."

Hurst did post a freakishly high catch rate last year (77%) on not very many targets (39), so I guess that counts for something. But, I think you're underestimating how quickly a player can go from 1st round draft pick to cheap flier in the NFL. I think Hurst is in cheap flier territory. It didn't take long for the Ravens to realize that the guy they took two rounds after Hurst was a better player (Andrews). You can say that's more of a statement on Andrews than Hurst, but Belichick (and any good negotiator, really) would absolutely bring something like that up in trade negotiations. "If Hurst is so good, why don't you throw him the ball more? I don't care how good Andrews is. We're talking about Hurst."
 

SMU_Sox

loves his fluffykins
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
6,665
Dallas
Interesting target, depending on the draft pick cost - he was the #25 pick two years ago, but sits 3rd on the Ravens depth chart (though Andrews, Boyle, and Hurst all saw meaningful snaps). Per PFF, he grades out in the same area as Henry and Ebron, and a bit weaker than Hooper (but similar receiver grade), though the bulk of his value is as a receiver with mediocre marks as a run blocker. If SMU’s reservations about the TE class match what the Pats think and they don’t want to spend $7mn+ on a FA, Hurst could end up being a better use of draft capital. 2 years of control at minimal cap cost ($1.5mn and $2.0mn guaranteed base salary in 2020-21).
The thing with TE though is even if there was a slam-dunk guy to fall to them like a Hock last year tight ends rarely produce in year 1. Now I'd argue that maybe one of these 6 could be a starting complete TE (Kmet, Trautman, Pinkney, Parkinson, Asiasi, O'Grady) but all have their warts and some way more than others. Not only is there risk that they might not get there but getting there in year 1 is extraordinarily rare.

Look at last year. BTW, my TE2 did technically finish 2nd in yards. Take a bow Dawson Knox. More TDs in the pros than he had at Ole Miss. Fuck you Matt Luke.

28634

I say technically because he had a whopping 388 yards. That's better than any of the Pats TEs last year but... oh and Fant was not a traditional in-line guy (@j-man where did Fant line up last year for the Broncos? Did he lineup as a move or flex piece or did they really run him inline?).

In 2018:
28635

In 2017:

28636

In 2016:
28637

The point is here that production out of rookie TEs is the exception and not the norm.
 

Average Game James

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,950
Not that PFF is gospel, but he was their 14th ranked TE and played over 30 snaps a game (it just so happened that #2 and #11 were also on his team). He hasn’t put up huge counting stats, but it’s not like he’s a completely unknown quantity without any film out there. He played and he played well, he just gave snaps to two better guys. I think the NFL is largely sophisticated enough at this point that being a “third string TE” won’t devalue him. If the TE draft class is weak, I wouldn’t be shocked if there’s decent demand for him.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
12,867
Mansfield MA
Not that PFF is gospel, but he was their 14th ranked TE and played over 30 snaps a game (it just so happened that #2 and #11 were also on his team). He hasn’t put up huge counting stats, but it’s not like he’s a completely unknown quantity without any film out there. He played and he played well, he just gave snaps to two better guys. I think the NFL is largely sophisticated enough at this point that being a “third string TE” won’t devalue him. If the TE draft class is weak, I wouldn’t be shocked if there’s decent demand for him.
The Ravens also finished 32nd in pass attempts. Hurst wound up as the team's third-leading receiver by yardage.