2020 Pats: General/Non-QB Off-Season Discussion

bigq

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Burn it down. Trade Gilmore for a haul. His value will never be higher than it is now. Looking forward to seeing BB rebuild on the fly and continue to prove that he is the GOAT building a dominant team one more time before he retires and rides off into the sunset.
 

tims4wins

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Given that it may not be a full season etc etc I would absolutely trade him. I’d also try to renounce the DMC and Slater deals but I’m a cold bastard.
 

DJnVa

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Wouldn’t there be a significant dead cap hit if he were traded? Never say never and all that but a trade would surprise me here unless he starts demanding a restructure. Doesn’t look to me that the Pats even need to create much more cap space this year since the expensive QB option doesn’t seem to be happening.
$15.3 million.
 

mcpickl

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Gross. No thanks. Looks like it’s much more feasible next offseason. Of course, the return would be much less.
The big cap savings this season will be from Joe Thuney.

Whether he's traded or extended, he'll be the guy they get breathing room from.

There's no chance he's on the cap at 14.8M this season.
 

lexrageorge

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Trade him for 2 firsts. Kraft/Belichick convince Trump to let Goodell postpone the start of the season for a couple of months, with a reopening timed just before the election. Go 0-7 in the shortened "Tank for Trevor" season.
 

Cellar-Door

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One thing Breer is missing is that while the "market for defensive players" may have exploded, the market for corners has not. There is a reason he compared him to arguably the best DT in history and an elite edge rusher instead of other top corners. Only 3 CBs in the league have an AAV more than $1M higher than Gilmore and all are much younger than him.

Gilmore is really good, maybe the best CB in the league, and his contract is good, but it isn't some massive discount that was set before a market explosion.

CBs aren't valued like player who disrupt the pocket on a pass rush, and nobody should expect a major haul for Gilmore. As a comparison while Darius Slay is coming off a down year, he's been one of the 5 or so best CBs over the past 5 seasons, he netted a 3rd and a 5rh. Even a single first would be surprising for Gilmore.

Edit- Peters (who was probably overrated, but also coming off 3 pro-bowls) netted a 4th and a future 2nd. Jalen Ramsey I guess is the argument otherwise, as he netted two 1sts, but he was also 24 not 29.
 

jmanny24

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So, according to this Lombardi says OJ Howard could be on the block again. That got me thinking with the "rumors" last week of Gronk wanting to play with TB again. Would something like Gronk and Thuney for #14 and #45 make any sense? A quick look and my rough math sees the Bucs would have to clear roughly another $7-10 mill to account for the new contracts and draft class?
 

Super Nomario

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So, according to this Lombardi says OJ Howard could be on the block again. That got me thinking with the "rumors" last week of Gronk wanting to play with TB again. Would something like Gronk and Thuney for #14 and #45 make any sense? A quick look and my rough math sees the Bucs would have to clear roughly another $7-10 mill to account for the new contracts and draft class?
Tampa Bay could use a tackle or two, but their interior OL is solid. Marpet is on Thuney's level, and Alex Cappa is an improving youngster.
 

jmanny24

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Tampa Bay could use a tackle or two, but their interior OL is solid. Marpet is on Thuney's level, and Alex Cappa is an improving youngster.
I agree, I was just trying to see how they could move the 14+mill but maybe Cannon makes more sense. Could also give them the ammo to get an OT (or maybe Cajuste surprises?)
 

Seels

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I've never understood the Howard love. Classic example of players living off their combine and college rep for way too long.
 

Average Game James

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I've never understood the Howard love. Classic example of players living off their combine and college rep for way too long.
He was actually pretty good in 2018. 565 receiving yards in 10 games, was PFF’s #2 rated TE. Arians just never seemed to use him much. Of course, he’s a good offensive coach, so maybe there are good reasons for that - I’m certainly not a scout. But, for a team like the Pats that have legitimately zero at TE, seems like a worthwhile gamble if the price isn’t too high, especially since the draft doesn’t look like a realistic avenue to get a starting caliber TE for the 2020 season.
 

Average Game James

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So, according to this Lombardi says OJ Howard could be on the block again. That got me thinking with the "rumors" last week of Gronk wanting to play with TB again. Would something like Gronk and Thuney for #14 and #45 make any sense? A quick look and my rough math sees the Bucs would have to clear roughly another $7-10 mill to account for the new contracts and draft class?
That would be dreaming. No way a full priced interior lineman and a year of Gronk who presumably would only play with Brady and not for the Pats fetches anything close to that. Maybe OJ Howard and #45?
 

Saints Rest

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Given that it may not be a full season etc etc I would absolutely trade him. I’d also try to renounce the DMC and Slater deals but I’m a cold bastard.
I feel like in whatever shape this season takes, it will be like no other ever before seen. In such a season, I want to have the GOAT Head Coach. I think that gives the Pats an advantage over pretty much every other team.
 

E5 Yaz

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Doug Kyed mailbag answer on a wrinkle in the OJHoward talk:

Is it possible to trade the rights to Gronk for OJ Howard? Do you think the Patriots would offer a 3rd round pick for Howard if not?

Yes, it is possible if Rob Gronkowski really does want to come back and play with Brady on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The Patriots can trade Gronkowski’s rights to the Buccaneers, and then Tampa Bay could activate him. And O.J. Howard could be included in that deal. The Patriots might need to chip in a pick to complete the trade.

Some Patriots fans seem to be overvaluing Gronk. He’s retired, and the Patriots’ hands would be tied if he wants to return. The Patriots aren’t going to get a haul for him if he’s even interested in playing. OK? OK.

If Gronkowski isn’t involved, then yes, I do think the Patriots would offer a third-round pick for Howard. I don’t think that gets it done, though. I think a second-round pick makes sense for Howard, but the Patriots don’t have one. So, that’s a problem. Would the Patriots be willing to offer a first? Probably not. Would the Bucs take a third-round pick? Eh. Two thirds? Maybe. Joe Thuney? The Buccaneers need another guard.

 

BigSoxFan

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Doug Kyed mailbag answer on a wrinkle in the OJHoward talk:

Is it possible to trade the rights to Gronk for OJ Howard? Do you think the Patriots would offer a 3rd round pick for Howard if not?

Yes, it is possible if Rob Gronkowski really does want to come back and play with Brady on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The Patriots can trade Gronkowski’s rights to the Buccaneers, and then Tampa Bay could activate him. And O.J. Howard could be included in that deal. The Patriots might need to chip in a pick to complete the trade.

Some Patriots fans seem to be overvaluing Gronk. He’s retired, and the Patriots’ hands would be tied if he wants to return. The Patriots aren’t going to get a haul for him if he’s even interested in playing. OK? OK.

If Gronkowski isn’t involved, then yes, I do think the Patriots would offer a third-round pick for Howard. I don’t think that gets it done, though. I think a second-round pick makes sense for Howard, but the Patriots don’t have one. So, that’s a problem. Would the Patriots be willing to offer a first? Probably not. Would the Bucs take a third-round pick? Eh. Two thirds? Maybe. Joe Thuney? The Buccaneers need another guard.

If the Pats offered 2 3rds for OJ Howard, the Bucs would accept in a millisecond. No way would I offer that or Thuney. The guy just isn’t that good.
 

E5 Yaz

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If the Pats offered 2 3rds for OJ Howard, the Bucs would accept in a millisecond. No way would I offer that or Thuney. The guy just isn’t that good.
Yeah, but would you off Gronk-rights for Howard and a second?
 

E5 Yaz

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Reiss says to keep an eye on the Thuney situation:

5b. Thuney holds all the leverage: With the Patriots tight against the salary cap (about $1 million in space), and having surprisingly assigned the franchise tag to starting left guard Joe Thuney at the top-of-the-market figure of $14.78 million, Thuney's future with the franchise bears watching during the draft. If a guard-needy team is willing to deal a second- or high third-rounder to help fill in the Patriots' draft board, that would have to be something Belichick seriously considers with the knowledge that the sides haven't been close to an extension. Thuney holds notable leverage because of the high franchise-tag figure.

 

RedOctober3829

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Reiss says to keep an eye on the Thuney situation:

5b. Thuney holds all the leverage: With the Patriots tight against the salary cap (about $1 million in space), and having surprisingly assigned the franchise tag to starting left guard Joe Thuney at the top-of-the-market figure of $14.78 million, Thuney's future with the franchise bears watching during the draft. If a guard-needy team is willing to deal a second- or high third-rounder to help fill in the Patriots' draft board, that would have to be something Belichick seriously considers with the knowledge that the sides haven't been close to an extension. Thuney holds notable leverage because of the high franchise-tag figure.

I expect this to happen. In my mind, trading Thuney for a 2nd would be a better use of resources. I don't think they have the luxury of spending huge money at both guard spots.
 

BigSoxFan

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Is anyone really giving up a 2 to give Thuney a top-of-the-market deal? I would gladly sign up. Would still probably do it for a 3rd.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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I would try to deal with Detroit, but not for Thuney. #23 and #195 for #35 and #67. Then deal Thuney for a 2nd or 3rd. Pats would be in business with #35, 67, 87, 98, 100 plus whatever pick they get for Thuney.
Or just get it all done together and do 23, 195 and Thuney for 35, 67 and 85.

I like your proposal but I think it might be a little light. According to the old trade value chart, we'd have to offer 23 & 125 for it to be equal value to 35 & 67.
 

DJnVa

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Or just get it all done together and do 23, 195 and Thuney for 35, 67 and 85.

I like your proposal but I think it might be a little light. According to the old trade value chart, we'd have to offer 23 & 125 for it to be equal value to 35 & 67.
Go play around with this site if you like trying these trades out:

 

RedOctober3829

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Or just get it all done together and do 23, 195 and Thuney for 35, 67 and 85.

I like your proposal but I think it might be a little light. According to the old trade value chart, we'd have to offer 23 & 125 for it to be equal value to 35 & 67.
Most teams don’t use the Jimmy Johnson value chart anymore. The one on Drafttek is the one they use.

 

E5 Yaz

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Breer on Thuney:


The Joe Thuney situation opens a window into the Patriots’ financial situation. And this is an interesting one because this isn’t an off-the-reservation type of guy—he’s been as good a practice player and program guy as he is on the game field, and on the game field he was an All-Pro last year. Thing is, Thuney has a boatload of leverage right now. He’s signed at $14.78 million for this year. Two tags would cost the Patriots at least $32.52 million, which means the team would likely have to give him a deal north of $16 million per year to make it worth it for him to sign long-term. That’d make him the highest paid guard in league history. It would also put him more than $3 million clear of what any other player not named Tom Brady has made in New England. How would that be received by, say, Stephon Gilmore? And how would it affect the Patriots’ ability to ask others to take less in the future? These are all things to consider, and things that will certainly be considered if trade calls come in.
 

Old Fart Tree

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Edit: reading the thread, it’s not even that scorched earth. He’s just saying he thought he would have been awesome if he hadn’t broken his foot, and he felt the environment was restrictive and weird. He’s probably right on the second one anyway? Whatever.
 

lexrageorge

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I'm sure Belichick lies awake at nights worrying about how Aaron Dobson felt during his time in Foxborough.
 
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I find it (irrationally?) annoying that he had this surgery in MAY, as opposed to, say, WAY sooner - even sooner than COVID put the kibosh on these kinds of surgeries - but...it is what it is. Maybe it didn't start hurting til then.
 

BigSoxFan

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I’m fine with this. I want to see what Harris has to offer. Let him get some reps. We pretty much know what we have in Sony...and it’s pretty underwhelming.
 

j44thor

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I’m fine with this. I want to see what Harris has to offer. Let him get some reps. We pretty much know what we have in Sony...and it’s pretty underwhelming.
Two picks I'll never understand was Michel over Chubb and Jermaine Cunningham over Carlos Dunlap. They both went to the same schools and in both cases the higher rated player was passed over. 2010 draft was a franchising altering draft regardless so can't complain too much but Dunlap is still in the NFL and Cunningham retired in 2014 after 38 games.