2020 Pats: Bengals Coach Implies Patriots Taping Play Signals

CoffeeNerdness

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The press box is on the visitors side of the field. There's no magic camera angle that allows them to see the front of the Bengals bench. You can look at the photo from the press box on page four.
Nothing but a magic camera could ever pick this up...

 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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That feels ... just and appropriate?
Yep. Make a penalty that is severe enough, but no more severe, as necessary to remind teams that their reps (whether they receive W2s or 1099s) must adhere to the rules.

Of course, given that it's probably the correct result means that the league will almost certainly fuck it up.
 

E5 Yaz

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So you mean to tell me this is much ado about nothing? Interesting. Patriots paranoia at it's finest.
Even should the NFL come out, say they believe the Patriots, and levels a minor punishment ... the damage has been done in terms of national perspective
 

E5 Yaz

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Yeah, I'm confused at what future damage this does if it really is a small fine.
To everyone outside of New England, the perspective was already that they are cheaters. I don't think this makes it any worse.
Only speaking from experience as someone who lives on the other coast, but there had been a noticeable change in recent years -- particularly after the 28-3 game -- of how NFL fans talked about the Patriots in conversation. That the acknowledgement of their success had finally overcome the reputation as cheaters. When this story broke yesterday, a couple of those same people reverted to their former opinions ... one even said that he "should've known that they'd never stopped cheating."

It's anecdotal, but it's what I was getting at in that post.
 

E5 Yaz

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I'm still trying to figure out how coaches would gain anything by footage they don't see.
That doesn't address the point --- not that I expected you to do so -- but here you're making an assumption that they'd never see the footage, based on what the team is saying. You have no way of of verifying that, but choosing to believe everything you're told is completely your decision to make.

I'm done. Take your last shot or send a PM
 

Harry Hooper

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Yeah, I'm confused at what future damage this does if it really is a small fine.
It depends how you mean future damage. There's a poster in this thread that already spoke about how the Patriots organization "consistently" keeps doing things like this. I am not sure how the bogus Rams' walkthrough story or Deflategate could have been avoided by the organization {if you believe the footballs were never adjusted in the john}. Maybe keeping Mike Kensil from entering the stadium for the AFCCG? So you have the taping infraction vs. the Jets and then this filming in Cleveland as things actually done by the organization, with culpability readily admitted both times.
 

DourDoerr

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I'd think that there might be a steady string of emails among the production team (production manager, director, assistant director, cameraman, sound recorder, editor and possibly more) on scheduling (why they chose THIS game to shoot) and shots to get for the video. That would certainly help define intent and better solidify the Patriot organization's claim of some separation from the video crew. If the Pats are speaking the truth, then the "paper" trail should be a big help. I'd imagine if the cameraman was willing to delete the footage, then the production team would be okay with turning over email records.
 

lexrageorge

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Schefter was on EEI today. He basically said the league should be able to get to the bottom of this by later this week. He doesn't think it will be a huge deal, but there could be a punishment, and he was unwilling to go beyond that, as he hadn't seen the tape. Now the hosts (Ordway and Merloni, so consider the sources here) were saying the Bengals coaching staff are all up in arms about this, but Schefter wouldn't go there.
 

Harry Hooper

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Schefter was on EEI today. He basically said the league should be able to get to the bottom of this by later this week. He doesn't think it will be a huge deal, but there could be a punishment, and he was unwilling to go beyond that, as he hadn't seen the tape. Now the hosts (Ordway and Merloni, so consider the sources here) were saying the Bengals coaching staff are all up in arms about this, but Schefter wouldn't go there.
If it's true that NFL Securty got involved almost from minute one in Cleveland, there is no reason to expect the Bengals coaching staff to have seen any footage.
 

RedOctober3829

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That doesn't address the point --- not that I expected you to do so -- but here you're making an assumption that they'd never see the footage, based on what the team is saying. You have no way of of verifying that, but choosing to believe everything you're told is completely your decision to make.

I'm done. Take your last shot or send a PM
I will explain my experience. There are multiple signal callers especially when giving offensive playcalls. One give the real signal and one gives the dummy signal. It is hard to tell which signal is the correct one and if teams are smart the signals change from week to week since the signals can be seen on TV copy and in some instances on the coaches copy. A lot of teams in my experience also uses wrist coaches that have the plays or formations on it. Could you gain something from seeing the signals? In a vacuum, yes. But, most every teams changes up their signals from week-to-week and if they don't they are not smart.

I'm making the assumption they don't see the Kraft Sports Productions film copy. Yes, I am giving them that benefit of the doubt. I don't think anything was done intentionally. If it comes out that the coaches got their hands on the tape and it shows up-close images of signals etc with intent to cheat then my stance will change. In my opinion, people are racing to conclusions that because a video team not associated with the football ops side was doing a project on another aspect of the support staffs (which they have done on multiple areas of the team already) that the team is somehow cheating. Both things can be true here. The video team could have taped the sideline which deserves a fine but doesn't necessarily mean that it was this big spy plot to gain intel on the Bengals. Is there evidence that they have done this anywhere else this year?

A lot of people jump to Spygate 2 on this but it's a totally different situation. Spygate involved the actual advanced scouts gaining media credentials and videotaping the signals every week. Are they really going to send these guys on a one-off to do this? Just seems very unlikely.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I'd think that there might be a steady string of emails among the production team (production manager, director, assistant director, cameraman, sound recorder, editor and possibly more) on scheduling (why they chose THIS game to shoot) and shots to get for the video. That would certainly help define intent and better solidify the Patriot organization's claim of some separation from the video crew. If the Pats are speaking the truth, then the "paper" trail should be a big help. I'd imagine if the cameraman was willing to delete the footage, then the production team would be okay with turning over email records.
Well, an advance scout is always at the game for the next week's opponent, hence his job title. If this didn't happen this week and they had chosen a different game, I doubt it changes much of the narrative and potentially makes it worse. If this same scenario occurred but the other team was the Chiefs or Ravens, all hell would break loose. One of the few things working in their favor is that it was a 1-12 team they have no shot of seeing in the playoffs, so if they were indeed being shady, it seems an odd choice to pick your time and be blatant. Talk to the other teams they've played and see if anyone else chimes in that something suspicious happened at any of their games, if they were decked out in Pats gear it should be easy enough to have spotted them in the press box before this.
 
Only speaking from experience as someone who lives on the other coast, but there had been a noticeable change in recent years -- particularly after the 28-3 game -- of how NFL fans talked about the Patriots in conversation. That the acknowledgement of their success had finally overcome the reputation as cheaters. When this story broke yesterday, a couple of those same people reverted to their former opinions ... one even said that he "should've known that they'd never stopped cheating."
Is there any way the Pats can retroactively be punished for cheating in their comeback against the Falcons, so that their punishment is to forfeit the Super Bowl and have the fourth quarter wiped clear of the the memories of everyone who watched it? Because I'd sign up for that in a heartbeat.
 

mikeford

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So this entire explanation LITERALLY follows the Spygate 1.0 playbook. If you get caught, say you're with Kraft Productions and lie about what you're actually filming. It's the exact same blueprint.

Ernie Adams basement probably has thousands of VHS tapes in it.
 

SoxinSeattle

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So this entire explanation LITERALLY follows the Spygate 1.0 playbook. If you get caught, say you're with Kraft Productions and lie about what you're actually filming. It's the exact same blueprint.

Ernie Adams basement probably has thousands of VHS tapes in it.
You don't know the half of it. They are masterminds of the most thorough and complex cheating scheme in the history of mankind.
 

doc

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I still believe we are leasing Russian spy satellites, why else did Kraft give a ring to Putin
 

Jimbodandy

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I still believe we are leasing Russian spy satellites, why else did Kraft give a ring to Putin
Why are you releasing this information on a public forum? PM me your papers.

On topic, the boil is lowered to a simmer already. This is heading in the correct and desirable direction, a fine for RFK. Time to put down the blood pressure pills.
 

mauf

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Even should the NFL come out, say they believe the Patriots, and levels a minor punishment ... the damage has been done in terms of national perspective
As a relatively recent convert to Patriots fandom, by far the best part of the experience is tasting the delicious, delicious tears of the haters. So long as the Pats don’t suffer any material consequences for this screw-up, the fuel it adds to the “cheaters!!” fire is a feature rather than a bug as far as I’m concerned.
 

BostonWolverine

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I just don't understand how none of the PR people for either the organization or the production company thought "maybe we shouldn't do this". I know it likelyl amounted to nothing but they deserve a fine because of stupidity.
 

DourDoerr

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Well, an advance scout is always at the game for the next week's opponent, hence his job title. If this didn't happen this week and they had chosen a different game, I doubt it changes much of the narrative and potentially makes it worse. If this same scenario occurred but the other team was the Chiefs or Ravens, all hell would break loose. One of the few things working in their favor is that it was a 1-12 team they have no shot of seeing in the playoffs, so if they were indeed being shady, it seems an odd choice to pick your time and be blatant. Talk to the other teams they've played and see if anyone else chimes in that something suspicious happened at any of their games, if they were decked out in Pats gear it should be easy enough to have spotted them in the press box before this.
Great point. The only better scenario would be to send the advance scout out the week before their bye and had him scout a game featuring teams they weren't playing this year - if only to avoid any potential b.s.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Great point. The only better scenario would be to send the advance scout out the week before their bye and had him scout a game featuring teams they weren't playing this year - if only to avoid any potential b.s.
Sure, except they aren’t sending an advance scout to a team they aren’t playing soon and the production crew and the football ops department aren’t collaborating on this.
 

lexrageorge

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I just don't understand how none of the PR people for either the organization or the production company thought "maybe we shouldn't do this". I know it likelyl amounted to nothing but they deserve a fine because of stupidity.
The stupidity angle gets overplayed.

Shooting documentaries is not stupid. Shooting a documentary showing the work of the advance scout is not stupid. Forgetting to explain the detailed NFL rules and policies to the video production team is an oversight (assuming that happened), but an understandable one given all the rules in the books. And the actions of the video team are even more understandable given that they actually talked to the Browns security staff.

Anyway, speaking of stupidity, I was curious where the talk show folks were coming up with the "Bengals are livid" story. Found out it was Volin:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2019/12/10/bengals-are-said-livid-over-patriots-illegal-videotaping/lJ7J7DLv3f5hQmZq1wQVPO/story.html
Of course, he contradicts all of the reporting so far that seems to indicate the NFL doesn't think this is a big deal.
 

54thMA

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It's going to be great like in 2007 after Spygate, 2014 after Deflategate and 2016 after Brady was handed a four game suspension, Belichick will now use this as motivation and the team will go on to the SB and when they win it, heads across America will explode.

And as far as the Bengals being "livid" over the Patriots' illegal videotaping; they should be livid about how terrible they are as a team, be livid about that you bozos.
 
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Byrdbrain

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Here is some interesting stuff from Matt Chatham on twitter. I know he is a Pats honk but he is knowledgeable and he did play in the NFL.
Anyway he looked at tape of the Bengals to see if anyone looked at the sidelines to get signals and saw no signs of it.
 

azsoxpatsfan

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It's going to be great like in 2007 after Spygate, 2014 after Deflategate and 20165 after Brady was handed a four game suspension, Belichick will now use this as motivation and the team will go on to the SB and when they win it, heads across America will explode.

And as far as the Bengals being "livid" over the Patriots' illegal videotaping; they should be livid about how terrible they are as a team, be livid about that you bozos.
Damn so Brady wants to play WAY past 45
 

Cotillion

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I just don't understand how none of the PR people for either the organization or the production company thought "maybe we shouldn't do this". I know it likelyl amounted to nothing but they deserve a fine because of stupidity.
I think it was literally as stupid as forgetting to say "hey guys (independent contractors), you know how you'd normally do B-roll? Yeah, you can't do that because of a stupid asinine rule that says you can't shoot anything that is already visible to 60-80K people in the stadium, and the millions watching at home (depending on game action), and the people that buy the all-22 footage or we will get royally screwed".

This will be the worst part of it. This will be a fine for failure to adhere to a rule that serves no purpose considering the existence of the all-22 footage to anyone willing to pony up the bucks to pay for it.
 

Marciano490

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I think it was literally as stupid as forgetting to say "hey guys (independent contractors), you know how you'd normally do B-roll? Yeah, you can't do that because of a stupid asinine rule that says you can't shoot anything that is already visible to 60-80K people in the stadium, and the millions watching at home (depending on game action), and the people that buy the all-22 footage or we will get royally screwed".

This will be the worst part of it. This will be a fine for failure to adhere to a rule that serves no purpose considering the existence of the all-22 footage to anyone willing to pony up the bucks to pay for it.
But that’s not really how it goes. You’ve worked, right? Every job gives you a manual, vetted by lawyers, that tells you the do’s and dont’s of the job. There can’t be that many rules related to videoing game action in a football stadium. It’s dumb this restriction wasn’t memorialized and fronted for these employees.

And I agree it’s a stupid rule. So are laws against smoking weed or drinking at 20 as opposed to 21. But, if you get busted doing it in front of a cop car, you kinda got what’s coming.
 

djbayko

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I like Belichick but despise the Patriots. This whole thing seems really dumb. Not as ridiculous as deflategate turned out to be, but is is early.

It shouldn't take much time to get it sorted one way or another. They have the tape. The tape either is either focused in a way that can help a team or it is not. I can't imagine football professionals watching it and not being able to recognize that fairly quickly. Even the '8 minutes' thing should be easy to unravel. Was that 8 minutes focused specifically on offense or defense? Was the taping stopped early, so we don't know how long it would have gone otherwise? Was it just 8 minutes of mostly broad panning around in the context of the feature? Solid chunks of footage focused on the sideline in a specific way? I just can't imagine much ambiguity.

I doubt the league would be able to get B-Roll from the other features in this series to be able to compare, but I suppose that could be another thing they want to look at.

Looks like a big nothingburger. Can't be too hard to figure things out quickly.
As to the bolded, what the production crew did or didn't capture for B-roll on other features wouldn't be very relevant, unless they highlighted people in similar roles who's job it was to watch the action from the press box.
 

Hatcher Steals Home

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I think it was literally as stupid as forgetting to say "hey guys (independent contractors), you know how you'd normally do B-roll? Yeah, you can't do that because of a stupid asinine rule that says you can't shoot anything that is already visible to 60-80K people in the stadium, and the millions watching at home (depending on game action), and the people that buy the all-22 footage or we will get royally screwed".
The Jim Whalen/equipment staff Do Your Job has multiple shots of game action, including some that at least appears from the sideline near-end zone POV that do not appear to be all-22 or typical TV footage. Now, just about every game has NFL films on the sideline as well and we do not know if the Patriots content team is getting footage from them exclusively (until the Browns/Bengals issues), supplementing their own footage or otherwise. The point being, this is not a new type of content - if anyone thought the Patriots were even up against a line with shooting B-roll (and assuming the process was similar for the Whalen episode) anyone associated with the project or anyone aware of the shooting or final edits with concerns could have raised them. No one did.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It’s dumb this restriction wasn’t memorialized and fronted for these employees.
We don't know what we don't know, though, right?

For all we know if this guy is interviewed he may very well say, "yeah, they sat us down at the beginning of the year and they gave us like 8 rules that we had to follow and they drilled it into us and then I just completely spaced on it, because we're allowed to tape the Patriots sideline for our pieces and I just fucked up. As soon as they mentioned it, I was like "oh, shit, I can't believe I fucking forgot rule number 1."

It's a problem with these stories. You can't help but make assumptions -- the guy taped so he must not have known he couldn't. People fuck up all the time.

Or it could be something completely different. I don't even know if this made up set of facts is better or worse, but there's still so much conjecture happening here.