2020 NFL: Offseason News and Notes

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,853
from the wilds of western ma
It’s the actual uniform, not the design.


Team president Sam Kennedy told The Athletic that the club will be talking with MLB’s new uniform provider, Nike, about ways to improve the performance of their classic uniforms. A full overhaul, much like the NFL’s Los Angeles Rams underwent recently, doesn’t seem likely.
“We are looking at changes as we go forward,” Kennedy said. “[The changes will be] likely geared to get us to a uniform that is geared towards high performance. We will always be respectful of our incredible traditional look and feel, but we are always open to new and different concepts as time goes by.”
Translation: at first it will be about fit and fabric. After a few years, comes the hideous redesign. The same track that Nike has followed in football.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,557
Hingham, MA
Translation: at first it will be about fit and fabric. After a few years, comes the hideous redesign. The same track that Nike has followed in football.
Yeah I don’t buy it but whatever. It’s the teams that are choosing to change their uniform looks, not Nike. Nike is helping design them, yes, but they’re not dictating when teams are changing. And teams still have to sign off on them, it’s not like Nike has carte blanche.
 

Remagellan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Yeah I don’t buy it but whatever. It’s the teams that are choosing to change their uniform looks, not Nike. Nike is helping design them, yes, but they’re not dictating when teams are changing. And teams still have to sign off on them, it’s not like Nike has carte blanche.
If someone were to club Phil Knight to death for insisting on the swoop on the front of all MLB jerseys and I were on the jury of that person's trial, I don't think I could vote to convict. Of course Nike would likely then "reimagine" the blood and brain splatter patterns of their late founder's murder scene into its next sartorial abortions.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
9,385

"Arrest warrants have been issued in South Florida for New York Giantscornerback DeAndre Baker and Seattle Seahawks cornerback Quinton Dunbarin connection to an armed robbery investigation.

According to Miramar Police, Baker's arrest warrant is for four counts of armed robbery with a firearm and four counts of aggravated assault with a firearm. Dunbar is wanted on four counts of armed robbery with a firearm.

The alleged incident took place late Wednesday night at a party that began Wednesday evening. According to the arrest warrant, Baker and Dunbar are accused of stealing money and watches with force while armed with semi-automatic firearms. It states that Baker intentionally threatened victims with a firearm.

According to the arrest warrant, multiple witnesses said at one point during the incident Baker ordered another suspect wearing a red mask to shoot an individual who was just entering the party."


Good lord.
 

pappymojo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2010
5,287
At a minimum, this should require a Deflategate-level investigation. Or at least a Bountygate-level one.
Combination of the team being NFL golden boys, and it being the most anticlimactic off-season (despite the big names, who really cares if the games won't get played), means this will disappear completely.
 

SemperFidelisSox

suzyn
SoSH Member
May 25, 2008
20,714
Boston, MA
The responses are coming quickly. Art Rooney and Harrison’s agent are both denying this ever happened.

William Barr will investigate Donald Trump before Goodell ever goes after the Rooney’s.
 

GoDa

lurker
Sep 25, 2017
962

"Arrest warrants have been issued in South Florida for New York Giantscornerback DeAndre Baker and Seattle Seahawks cornerback Quinton Dunbarin connection to an armed robbery investigation.

According to Miramar Police, Baker's arrest warrant is for four counts of armed robbery with a firearm and four counts of aggravated assault with a firearm. Dunbar is wanted on four counts of armed robbery with a firearm.

The alleged incident took place late Wednesday night at a party that began Wednesday evening. According to the arrest warrant, Baker and Dunbar are accused of stealing money and watches with force while armed with semi-automatic firearms. It states that Baker intentionally threatened victims with a firearm.

According to the arrest warrant, multiple witnesses said at one point during the incident Baker ordered another suspect wearing a red mask to shoot an individual who was just entering the party."


Good lord.
Get these guys some stimulus checks, stat!
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,557
Hingham, MA

“Wow y’all really comparing what I said to BOUNTYGATE?!?” Harrison said. “Mike T. Has NEVER paid me for hurting someone or TRYING to hurt someone or put a bounty on ANYBODY!

“If you knew the full story of what happened back then you’d know that BS fine for a Legal Play wasn’t even penalized during the game. The league was getting pressure because the first concussion lawsuits were starting and they had to look like they cared about player safety all of a sudden. Before that they had been SELLING a photo of THAT SAME PLAY FOR $55 on the NFL website with other videos of the NFL’S GREATEST HITS that the league Profited On back then.

“When the league had to start pretending like they cared about player safety they took all those things down off their website and they started fining guys ridiculous amounts for the same plays they used to profit off of. EVERYBODY knew it — even these same media people and all the fans that were sending money to me and the team to cover the fine. AGAIN AT NO TIME did Mike T. EVER suggest anybody hurt anybody or that they’d be rewarded for anything like that. GTFOH with that BS!!! #receipts.”
Harrison isn't exactly denying it in his Instagram post. He says Tomlin wasn't paying him to injure guys, but he never says that Tomlin didn't hand him an envelope. Seems like this story has legs. Of course nothing will happen to the Steelers. We are all a broken record on this but the persecution complex is real.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
33,165
Hartford, CT
That’s pretty sad, actually.

In terms of producing the intended outcome - namely more minority coaches - they should really focus on the pipeline. The more coaches of color that can get in the door as assistants or position coaches on the staff, the more likely it’ll be that teams hire them as head coaches. The dearth of coaches or front office employees of color runs far deeper than the head jobs, and it’s arguably a problem coequal with the actual selection process.

Also, will a team’s decision to hire a coach of color among the finalists turn on improving 6 spots from pick 65-96 (and 10 spots for a GM of color)?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,557
Hingham, MA
That’s pretty sad, actually.

In terms of producing the intended outcome - namely more minority coaches - they should really focus on the pipeline. The more coaches of color that can get in the door as assistants or position coaches on the staff, the more likely it’ll be that teams hire them as head coaches. The dearth of coaches or front office employees of color runs far deeper than the head jobs, and it’s arguably a problem coequal with the actual selection process.

Also, will a team’s decision to hire a coach of color among the finalists turn on improving 6 spots from pick 65-96 (and 10 spots for a GM of color)?
Exactly - there need to be more minority position coaches to begin with. The problem will solve itself from there.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
12,818
Mansfield MA
That’s pretty sad, actually.

In terms of producing the intended outcome - namely more minority coaches - they should really focus on the pipeline. The more coaches of color that can get in the door as assistants or position coaches on the staff, the more likely it’ll be that teams hire them as head coaches. The dearth of coaches or front office employees of color runs far deeper than the head jobs, and it’s arguably a problem coequal with the actual selection process.

Also, will a team’s decision to hire a coach of color among the finalists turn on improving 6 spots from pick 65-96 (and 10 spots for a GM of color)?
I haven't studied the coaching side in as much depth, but I did look at GM hires, and it's not just a pipeline problem. African-Americans make up 28% of personnel and the same 28% of Director hires ... the problem is exclusive to the GM level.

(Arguably 28% is also low since NCAA Football [all levels] is 39% black. FWIW there are some pipeline programs, such as the Bill Walsh Diversity Coaching Fellowship and Nunn-Wootten Scouting Fellowship).
 

Average Game James

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,837
That’s pretty sad, actually.

In terms of producing the intended outcome - namely more minority coaches - they should really focus on the pipeline. The more coaches of color that can get in the door as assistants or position coaches on the staff, the more likely it’ll be that teams hire them as head coaches. The dearth of coaches or front office employees of color runs far deeper than the head jobs, and it’s arguably a problem coequal with the actual selection process.
Peter King, I think, has made the point in the past that the pipeline problem on the coaching front can be made to look less bad if you look at aggregate coaching staff demographics too. Offensive coordinator and QB coach are really the stepping stone positions to HC jobs in today’s NFL and they are held predominantly by white men (there are 2 black OCs currently). It’s not just about having more minority coaches, it’s about having more minority coaches in the roles that lead to HC jobs.
 

Seels

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,241
NH
Imagine being the general manager or coach interviewed, and you don't get it, and are essentially told that your value just wasn't worth giving up a third round draft pick. Well Brian, the reason we hired you is because we figured it would allow us to draft a guard who might start in two years

Do Asian coaches/GM get this too? What about women? Would a team get a 3rd rounder out of hiring someone just to fire them 5 weeks into the year?

This is one of the top 3 worst ideas I've heard in sports history.

I'm not arguing this is an issue. I don't know that it is either. But if it is, this absolutely isn't a fix.
 
Last edited:

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,557
Hingham, MA
Imagine being the general manager or coach interviewed, and you don't get it, and are essentially told that your value just wasn't worth giving up a third round draft pick. Well Brian, the reason we hired you is because we figured it would allow us to draft a guard who might start in two years

Do Asian coaches/GM get this too? What about women? Would a team get a 3rd rounder out of hiring someone just to fire them 5 weeks into the year?

This is one of the top 3 worst ideas I've heard in sports history.

I'm not arguing this is an issue. I don't know that it is either. But if it is, this absolutely isn't a fix.
To be clear, the proposal is not an extra pick - it is moving up by 6 slots (coach) or 10 slots (GM)
 

54thMA

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2012
6,660
Westwood MA
The NFL, like all professional sports leagues, are marketing themselves to a younger crowd, teenagers and 20 somethings; you know, the people who actually buy the jerseys and wear them.

I'll be 60 in December, the me buying and wearing team jerseys ship sailed about 35 or so years ago.

If it was up to me, the Rams would wear blue helmets with white horns, blue jerseys and white pants like they did in the 1960's...………….I doubt if the people who actually spend the money on apparel would agree.

I don't blame the NFL or any other league for the new style uniforms they are moving towards; again, the target audience is younger fans, not old geezers like me.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,406
Portsmouth, NH
To move up 6 or 10 slots in the 3rd? That’s worth like a 5th-6th rounder I think. Check the value charts.
It was a rhetorical question, but thanks.

Point was you can look at it like gaining an extra pick and immediately chasing it in by trading up; in this case a 4th or 5th depending on where in the round you fall, more likely towards a 4th since those teams armor likely to be hiring a new coach.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,557
Hingham, MA
It was a rhetorical question, but thanks.

Point was you can look at it like gaining an extra pick and immediately chasing it in by trading up; in this case a 4th or 5th depending on where in the round you fall, more likely towards a 4th since those teams armor likely to be hiring a new coach.
Right. The max value would be moving from the 65th pick to the 55th. That’s worth 85 points per the Stuart chart, or the 104-105th pick - an early 4th rounder.

If I’m an owner hiring a new GM because my team was the worst in football and earned the #1 pick, I sure as hell wouldn’t let an extra 4th round pick sway my opinion - I want the right guy regardless. Hell I would give up picks if it meant getting the right guy - see Kraft giving up a first rounder for BB back in 2000.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
64,866
Oregon
So, under the proposal, the Patriots would have gained a third-round comp pick for Brian Flores becoming coach of the Dolphins

Conversely, losing minority candidates to other teams would earn draft capital -- a third-round compensatory pick for a minority candidate leaving to become a head coach or general manager and a fifth-round compensatory pick to the former team for a coordinator hire.

 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,406
Portsmouth, NH
Right. The max value would be moving from the 65th pick to the 55th. That’s worth 85 points per the Stuart chart, or the 104-105th pick - an early 4th rounder.

If I’m an owner hiring a new GM because my team was the worst in football and earned the #1 pick, I sure as hell wouldn’t let an extra 4th round pick sway my opinion - I want the right guy regardless. Hell I would give up picks if it meant getting the right guy - see Kraft giving up a first rounder for BB back in 2000.
Where did you think I was arguing a team should do it?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,406
Portsmouth, NH
So, under the proposal, the Patriots would have gained a third-round comp pick for Brian Flores becoming coach of the Dolphins




Lost or gained? I read this as gained:

Conversely, losing minority candidates to other teams would earn draft capital -- a third-round compensatory pick for a minority candidate leaving to become a head coach or general manager and a fifth-round compensatory pick to the former team for a coordinator hire.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
24,557
Hingham, MA
So, under the proposal, the Patriots would have gained a third-round comp pick for Brian Flores becoming coach of the Dolphins




This makes more sense. Reward teams for bringing those coaches through the pipeline. This is a far better incentive to achieve the ultimate goal.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
45,686
deep inside Guido territory
So, under the proposal, the Patriots would have gained a third-round comp pick for Brian Flores becoming coach of the Dolphins




To me it sounds like the Pats would gain a 3rd rd comp pick for Flores leaving.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
46,875
I don’t know whether to give the NFL credit for trying to think creatively about the underrepresentation of minorities in coaching, or point out that the fact that it’s made up 32 owners some of whom must not be great at race relationship (hi McNair!) to be have these demographics in the first place.

I wonder how the “don’t kneel” America fuck yeah guys feel about this move from their favorite blood sport.
 

SydneySox

A dash of cool to add the heat
SoSH Member
Sep 19, 2005
15,605
The Eastern Suburbs
I don’t know whether to give the NFL credit for trying to think creatively about the underrepresentation of minorities in coaching, or point out that the fact that it’s made up 32 owners some of whom must not be great at race relationship (hi McNair!) to be have these demographics in the first place.

I wonder how the “don’t kneel” America fuck yeah guys feel about this move from their favorite blood sport.
Just look up at post #572 for a glimpse.
 

Rough Carrigan

reasons within Reason
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Just look up at post #572 for a glimpse.
Actually it raises a perfectly reasonable question that's going to end up having some completely ridiculous answers. What counts?
Let's say the Jaguars hire a GM who turns out to be 1/32 Aleutian islander by heritage. Does he count? What if he's an Elizabeth Warren-esque 1/1024? Where's the line? Does the NFL agree with the Klan that 1 drop of blood makes all the difference, only in a good way? No matter where you draw that line it will be ridiculous.
 

SydneySox

A dash of cool to add the heat
SoSH Member
Sep 19, 2005
15,605
The Eastern Suburbs
Actually it raises a perfectly reasonable question that's going to end up having some completely ridiculous answers. What counts?
Let's say the Jaguars hire a GM who turns out to be 1/32 Aleutian islander by heritage. Does he count? What if he's an Elizabeth Warren-esque 1/1024? Where's the line? Does the NFL agree with the Klan that 1 drop of blood makes all the difference, only in a good way? No matter where you draw that line it will be ridiculous.
When you were typing that out, especially the part where you were quoting the Klu Klux Klan, did it sound right in your head?
 

Bowser

lurker
Sep 27, 2019
44
When you were typing that out, especially the part where you were quoting the Klu Klux Klan, did it sound right in your head?
The question raised is perfectly reasonable: Where do you draw the. line? That's what you should be responding to.

The answer is that you can't draw a line, certainly not at a time when race, sex -- hell, even age -- is considered a social construction.

The idea is unworkable and asinine.
 

Average Game James

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
1,837
The question about what counts to fill the minority question really is an interesting one, though presumably there must be some type of definition that already exists to evaluate whether teams have met interviewing requirements under the Rooney rule.

Separately, there’s also the question of how the “General Manager” position is defined since it isn’t a role that’s used the same way across all organizations. Like, presumably the Pats shouldn’t be able to hire a minority to fill the role of “General Manager” while Belichick retains all control over player personnel decisions (and if there is such a loophole, be prepared for the Minority-Gate investigations). But in a more realistic scenario, how does it work if an NFL team hires a minority head coach and gives that individual full roster control? Do they simultaneously meet the minority head coach and minority GM criteria? Or would the GM part apply to the highest ranking member of the personnel organization that isn’t the head coach? And if so, who determines what person that is? Sure, parts of it sound stupid and semantic, and we’d probably all like to think teams could be follow the rule in both letter and spirit, but we all know this is the NFL and teams will do damn near anything to get an edge.

High level, it’s good to see the NFL trying to do something. Not sure this is the right answer, as even if you can write the rule in such a way that it isn’t able to be gamed, I’m not convinced the potential rewards are really enough to move the needle on hiring choices.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,340
Actually it raises a perfectly reasonable question that's going to end up having some completely ridiculous answers. What counts?
Let's say the Jaguars hire a GM who turns out to be 1/32 Aleutian islander by heritage. Does he count? What if he's an Elizabeth Warren-esque 1/1024? Where's the line? Does the NFL agree with the Klan that 1 drop of blood makes all the difference, only in a good way? No matter where you draw that line it will be ridiculous.
JFC, no matter where they draw the line it won't be as ridiculous as your post.

This is always the excuse to deny any program, in any part of life, that is developed to help anyone who isn't in the majority. But, where do you draw the line? What if someone who shouldn't actually benefit from this, also benefits from this?

The hand wringing over the worry someone undeserving might also take advanage of a program not meant for them. Who cares? If a team tries to game the system to move up a few spots in the draft by hiring someone that's 1/32 or 1/1024 non-white as you used in your examples, it's the tiniest price to pay for a program that might actually help some non-white candidates get a chance they deserve.
 

Bowser

lurker
Sep 27, 2019
44
This is always the excuse to deny any program, in any part of life, that is developed to help anyone who isn't in the majority.
Any program that rewards teams for hiring individuals who are 1/024 or even 1/16 "minority" is an embarrassment to clear thinking. And my objection to it has nothing at all to do with a desire to deny assistance to those who are not in the majority, but thanks for the accusation. To the contrary, it's with those who'd rather strike a politically correct pose without giving two shits whether the program they're waiving pom-poms for is actually workable and able to achieve the desired results. Please, those who support this program or its intentions, explain where the line is to be drawn. I'm legit interested in your reasoning.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
46,875
The more I think about this, the less sense it makes to me. There are 32 teams with 32 owners. It’s not some diffuse heterodox structure like colleges or normal job applications. They already set up the Rooney Rule. If these guys cared about hiring minority coaches, they would have already. I don’t know why they keep having to make up rules or systems or incentives for them to do so. Either they don’t actually want to hire minorities or they think their fan bases will be opposed.
 
May 14, 2015
148
I'd like them to approach it from another direction (or maybe do both) - deter teams from hiring nepotism candidates.

An absurd amount of positions, specifically entry level, across the NFL are filled with the children of coaches and GMs from across the league. Case in point - Steve Belichick. These people have simply done absolutely nothing more to earn these positions beyond winning the DNA sweepstakes and yet they're gifted an opportunity early in their careers in one of the most competitive industries. They get to build up coaching and scouting skills while minority candidates are typically playing the game, and then they get to roll into job interviews in future years with all kinds of experience on their resume.

Sure, it works sometimes when you get Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay, but don't tell me either of those guys would have become coaches at such a young age if they were from different family trees. And please don't tell me that Steve Belichick was the best possible candidate for safeties coach of the Patriots. I think that can build up resentment from people when it comes to talking about this issue because legacy hires like these are never affected in scenarios where identity plays a role in hiring - they'll still always get the jobs, minority incentives or not.

I know i'm tilting at windmills here and it will never change, but to me this is the crux of why competitive industries so often don't include minorities. They are built on decades old networks of self-interested families that will only change the surface level optics and never the foundational problem.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
46,875
Bill Belichick’s dad was a football coach, and McVay and Shanahan both made it to the Super Bowl very early in young careers. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but you should cite the Kushners as examples, not the FDR’s. Some legacies deserve to be where they are. On the other hand, lots of NFL coaches are on their 4th or 5th chance as coordinators or head coaches, clean them out and I’ll agree, regardless of bloodlines.
 
May 14, 2015
148
Okay - Lane Kiffin, Jay Gruden, all of the Schurmurs, the Shula kids, Mike Nolan, Jim Mora, Brian Schottenheimer, etc. The list is pretty endless, and that's not even counting the guys who are kicking around as scouts, lower level coaches, and front office types.

And let's see McVay and Shanahan sustain success without the tailwind of a half-dozen top ten picks and clean salary cap sheets. Doug Marrone made the AFC Championship game with a stacked roster and I think he's garbage as a coach. McVay was underwhelming last season. Sometimes you get lucky for a year.

Regardless what you think of them or not, they didn't get their first shot because they were the hardest workers or the smartest applicants. They got it because of their family lineage. I imagine there are smarter people who just never got the shot to show it in the same way.

I don't know - maybe if you want to hire your son or the son of of your assistant coach to be a quality control coach or whatever, you have to hire a minority applicant at an equal position at the same time? Give enough people opportunity and many will show they deserve it.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,340
Any program that rewards teams for hiring individuals who are 1/024 or even 1/16 "minority" is an embarrassment to clear thinking. And my objection to it has nothing at all to do with a desire to deny assistance to those who are not in the majority, but thanks for the accusation. To the contrary, it's with those who'd rather strike a politically correct pose without giving two shits whether the program they're waiving pom-poms for is actually workable and able to achieve the desired results. Please, those who support this program or its intentions, explain where the line is to be drawn. I'm legit interested in your reasoning.
It doesn't.

It was a ridiculous example made up from a poster who also referenced the klan.

I, a person who supports this program, as I've already explained do no care whatsoever where the line is drawn. It doesn't matter. You're welcome.

This program gives the tiniest incentive to teams to consider hiring anyone other than another white guy. To turn your nose up at that because of some theory that some team might try to exploit it by hiring a non-minority but claiming they are a minority is, in my mind, silly.