2020 NBA Draft Game Thread

Cesar Crespo

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I think there's two points, one good and one ill-considered.

There's little reason to draft a marginal role player for the Celtics, on that I agree.

But picking a stash who projects to be that is only a little better.
It's the 47th pick. A few years ago that would have projected to out of the NBA in a few years. It's changed with roster sizes growing but you aren't getting much with the 47th pick.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think there's two points, one good and one ill-considered.

There's little reason to draft a marginal role player for the Celtics, on that I agree.

But picking a stash who projects to be that is only a little better. You retain a little upside but then you're left with the question: which player's upside do you want to bet on?

I hope they are right on Madar, but they have generally not been good on the international guys---Theis is the best recent one and he didn't come through the draft.
Except you miss a key point... you can take a long term bet on a foreign stash because they don't exist for roster purposes... which lets you take ANOTHER bet on the 2-way, and then another, then another, all while you are letting the Euro-stash develop.

So the question for a GM is.... "do I like this shot in the dark at 47 more than I like the Euro shot in the dark AND a UFA shot in the dark". I think in many cases the latter is better. We have what 10 players who people have said they wanted picked there, all essentially interchangeable in terms of consensus prospect level, some of them didn't even get drafted and could be slid into the open 2 way during camp.

Edit- For example.... here are some of the top undrafted guys. Any of them could easily have gone at 47:
View: https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1329291932921688064
 

Bosox4416

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Except you miss a key point... you can take a long term bet on a foreign stash because they don't exist for roster purposes... which lets you take ANOTHER bet on the 2-way, and then another, then another, all while you are letting the Euro-stash develop.

So the question for a GM is.... "do I like this shot in the dark at 47 more than I like the Euro shot in the dark AND a UFA shot in the dark". I think in many cases the latter is better. We have what 10 players who people have said they wanted picked there, all essentially interchangeable in terms of consensus prospect level, some of them didn't even get drafted and could be slid into the open 2 way during camp.

Edit- For example.... here are some of the top undrafted guys. Any of them could easily have gone at 47:
View: https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1329291932921688064
For name value only, no one slept on more than Tres Tinkle
 
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luckiestman

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Cellar-Door

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Thought i'd look back a last year's draft grades
View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2842087-nba-draft-grades-2019-full-results-analysis-and-reaction


Boston Celtics (A): SG Romeo Langford (14), PF Grant Williams (22), G Carsen Edwards (33), PG Tremont Waters (51)

Miami Heat (C): SG Tyler Herro (13), SF KZ Okpala (32)
To be fair, in the write-up they liked Herro, they thought the Okpala trade/pick was really bad. Which is more the flaw of these grades that they don''t realize that 1sts are all that matter unless you hit a homerun in the 2nd.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Except you miss a key point... you can take a long term bet on a foreign stash because they don't exist for roster purposes... which lets you take ANOTHER bet on the 2-way, and then another, then another, all while you are letting the Euro-stash develop.

So the question for a GM is.... "do I like this shot in the dark at 47 more than I like the Euro shot in the dark AND a UFA shot in the dark". I think in many cases the latter is better. We have what 10 players who people have said they wanted picked there, all essentially interchangeable in terms of consensus prospect level, some of them didn't even get drafted and could be slid into the open 2 way during camp.

Edit- For example.... here are some of the top undrafted guys. Any of them could easily have gone at 47:
View: https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1329291932921688064
As I said before, and fully encompassing what you added above to your original point, I think Scrubb is the most interesting upside guy. Rather than the theory, can you explain why you think one of the above or one of the end of the roster guys plus Yam is a better choice?
 

Marbleheader

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Going into last night, for the first time in a long time the Celtics had no picks other than their own incoming. I'm guessing the Memphis pick is not going to be great. They have a lot of extra 2nd round picks, plus 1sts from Utah 21, GS 24.
 

Cellar-Door

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As I said before, and fully encompassing what you added above to your original point, I think Scrubb is the most interesting upside guy. Rather than the theory, can you explain why you think one of the above or one of the end of the roster guys plus Yam is a better choice?
Sure.
I think Yam is a lower ceiling player than Scrubb, but I also don't think Scrubb is much of a prospect, I don't think anyone available at 47 was likely to make the Celtics team in the next few years. At best they get a 2 way this year, then next they are in the same position as Waters (or worse, I think Waters had more opportunity last year than a wing like Scrubb would this year). I think Yam is a guy you can watch for 2-3 years and see if he makes it to the point where you bring him over, and it lets you either use the two-ways to continue developing players you liked and brought in last year, or get someone who is a Scrubb equivalent.

Generally my take is that the Celtics don't have room for a project on the 15, and won't next year either, so getting a 2nd into the two way slot doesn't do much unless you LOVE him, and think he's far better than the players who will go undrafted which I don't think was the case for BOS. A Euro stash has more value, whether he eventually makes it, or he's a piece (ala Micic yesterday) who helps fill the gaps in a trade in our position because you don't need to decide what to do with him for several years.

If we were the Bucks for example who need to fill a bunch of roster spots, have few upcoming picks and have few young players, I absolutely take the highest upside player who might make the team this year or next, however that isn't the Celtics' situation.

Also... I don't htink anyone there was better than Carsen Edwards, who we are likely to dump to make space on the roster, and if that's the case, given the contracts situations on the team, the future picks we'll add, and the desire to leave some space for future moves, a 2nd who needed some kind of contract right now wasn't a good move at 47, and my guess is that they couldn't find anyone who wanted to trade into 47 because most teams had similar thoughts about the relatively flat talent pool from 47-60
 

Cellar-Door

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DARN! I really wanted a BIG out of this draft.
Once the top 2 bigs were gone I didn't expect one. Theis and Williams are better than what was there after Okongwu, and likely will continue to be. The Celtics will probably use the MLE on a big or trade for one, but this draft didn't have an upgrade reasonably available (even Wiseman and Okongwu were more long term plays) the Celtics bigs are pretty good.
 

lovegtm

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Once the top 2 bigs were gone I didn't expect one. Theis and Williams are better than what was there after Okongwu, and likely will continue to be. The Celtics will probably use the MLE on a big or trade for one, but this draft didn't have an upgrade reasonably available (even Wiseman and Okongwu were more long term plays) the Celtics bigs are pretty good.
Bigs also generally take more time to develop. If you draft a #30 guy and he works out great, he's maybe as good as a $5M vet by his 3rd-4th year. It's just a really fungible position outside of the elite guys.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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DARN! I really wanted a BIG out of this draft.
It's go-time for Robert Williams. Year 3 is when guys with this profile (Capela/DeAndre) either take the leap to starter-quality or settle in as bench bigs who have a solid enough career bouncing around a bunch of teams.
 

BigSoxFan

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It's go-time for Robert Williams. Year 3 is when guys with this profile (Capela/DeAndre) either take the leap to starter-quality or settle in as bench bigs who have a solid enough career bouncing around a bunch of teams.
And he still just turned 23. TL has his limitations but he remains an extremely fun player for me to watch. And there isn't much competition beyond Theis for minutes right now unless Danny brings in an MLE big.
 

benhogan

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Bigs also generally take more time to develop. If you draft a #30 guy and he works out great, he's maybe as good as a $5M vet by his 3rd-4th year. It's just a really fungible position outside of the elite guys.
Yep, the narrative of draft a guy like Vernon Carey and toss aside Kanter, because Carey can replace Enes offensive production is comical. Not sure people realize how efficient a healthy Kanter was last year.

No need to waste picks on BIGs to spend years developing them. Danny can sign guys like Cauley Stein or Dwight Howard for a couple of MM to play those 10-15mpg against Embiid if you need that. The Celtics don't since Kanter has proven to be effective in that role.
 

RedOctober3829

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Yep, the narrative of draft a guy like Vernon Carey and toss aside Kanter, because Carey can replace Enes offensive production is comical. Not sure people realize how efficient a healthy Kanter was last year.

No need to waste picks on BIGs to spend years developing them. Danny can sign guys like Cauley Stein or Dwight Howard for a couple of MM to play those 10-15mpg against Embiid if you need that. The Celtics don't since Kanter has proven to be effective in that role.
Agreed. If they didn't draft Wiseman or Precious, get the best shooters possible and that is what they did. Now they can use FA to go get a ready-made big man.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Sure.
I think Yam is a lower ceiling player than Scrubb, but I also don't think Scrubb is much of a prospect, I don't think anyone available at 47 was likely to make the Celtics team in the next few years. At best they get a 2 way this year, then next they are in the same position as Waters (or worse, I think Waters had more opportunity last year than a wing like Scrubb would this year). I think Yam is a guy you can watch for 2-3 years and see if he makes it to the point where you bring him over, and it lets you either use the two-ways to continue developing players you liked and brought in last year, or get someone who is a Scrubb equivalent.

Generally my take is that the Celtics don't have room for a project on the 15, and won't next year either, so getting a 2nd into the two way slot doesn't do much unless you LOVE him, and think he's far better than the players who will go undrafted which I don't think was the case for BOS. A Euro stash has more value, whether he eventually makes it, or he's a piece (ala Micic yesterday) who helps fill the gaps in a trade in our position because you don't need to decide what to do with him for several years.

If we were the Bucks for example who need to fill a bunch of roster spots, have few upcoming picks and have few young players, I absolutely take the highest upside player who might make the team this year or next, however that isn't the Celtics' situation.

Also... I don't htink anyone there was better than Carsen Edwards, who we are likely to dump to make space on the roster, and if that's the case, given the contracts situations on the team, the future picks we'll add, and the desire to leave some space for future moves, a 2nd who needed some kind of contract right now wasn't a good move at 47, and my guess is that they couldn't find anyone who wanted to trade into 47 because most teams had similar thoughts about the relatively flat talent pool from 47-60
I agree that there's two common purposes for 2nd round picks, at least after pick 35-40: low-cost rotation guys, and upside/development plays. The Celtics right now don't need the first.

In terms of the upside/development plays I don't think there's a single answer that is always right. I read you to focus on the 'shots on goal' for development plays, and while there's a valid theory there I'd typically prefer a smaller number of guys who you have a reason to believe why they might succced and then you manage them to move on quickly if they don't. But the truth is it is about the players, and most will never matter.

I also think the question is not "is player x better than Carson Edwards today" when we talk about the development guys---the question is "do we believe player x is more likely to have impact than Carson Edwards" Which is why I don't have a lot of concern about losing Edwards, Green, Waters, or Tacko IF I like a different guy's upside---to me those guys are unlikely to have impact. I say that liking the gamble generally on all of them but being forced to make choices.
 

ehaz

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View: https://mobile.twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status/1329317310969098241


Baylor PF/C Freddie Gillespie signed with the Mavs as an undrafted FA late last night.

This was one I followed closely. For those who don’t know, Gillespie has an incredible story - played D3 ball at Carleton College in Minnesota (we overlapped one year), transferred to Baylor, made the team as a walk-on, earned a scholarship, and is now headed to the NBA. He deserves it, I’m psyched for him.

 

HowBoutDemSox

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Was it ever determined if Poirier was attached to #30?
It feels odd that we don’t have clarity in this yet. The only thing I can think of is if the final shape of the trade depends on what happens with respect to the options today, particularly Kanter’s, and both sides agreed to a few different permutations depending on how the roster and cap situations shake out.
 

Cellar-Door

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It feels odd that we don’t have clarity in this yet. The only thing I can think of is if the final shape of the trade depends on what happens with respect to the options today, particularly Kanter’s, and both sides agreed to a few different permutations depending on how the roster and cap situations shake out.
Some people speculating it is Kanter going out
 

Burkharts Uppercut

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Some people speculating it is Kanter going out
That would make a lot of sense and makes the trade palatable. Perhaps the Grizzlies agreed to take on 5 million of salary of the Cs choosing. If Kanter opts in, he's sent to the Grizzlies and then waive/stretch Poirer. If Kanter opts out, we send Poirer and maybe Carsen.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That would make a lot of sense and makes the trade palatable. Perhaps the Grizzlies agreed to take on 5 million of salary of the Cs choosing. If Kanter opts in, he's sent to the Grizzlies and then waive/stretch Poirer. If Kanter opts out, we send Poirer and maybe Carsen.
They have a few open roster spots so it would be nice to unload 2 players. I was thinking earlier it might just be Edwards.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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That would make a lot of sense and makes the trade palatable. Perhaps the Grizzlies agreed to take on 5 million of salary of the Cs choosing. If Kanter opts in, he's sent to the Grizzlies and then waive/stretch Poirer. If Kanter opts out, we send Poirer and maybe Carsen.
Some people are speculating that if Kanter opts in, it could be him that is going out.

I would think that's unlikely but it's a possibility.
 

Kliq

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You know what's a shitty draft take I've seen mentioned a bunch over the last few days? That Centers don't matter anymore and big men shouldn't be drafted that high. I'll use Jonathan Tjarks at The Ringer as an example, he basically argued that since Centers are so fungible and unimportant, it is hard to justify teams that take a Center high in the draft, so he dinged the Wiseman pick. This seems to ignore the recent evidence that big men are in fact, still extremely important. We just saw a playoffs that were largely defined and won by big men like Anthony Davis, Bam and Jokic. Sure, Jahlil Okafor's skillset is not very important in the modern NBA, but an uber-athletic, skilled guy like Wiseman is still insanely valuable and has incredible potential.
 

nighthob

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Well, extremely mobile perimeter bigs, anyway. So Wiseman and Okongwu could be great choices if they pan out. Jalen Smith strikes me as a situational player, which I find more mystifying in a mid to late lottery pick.
 

lovegtm

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You know what's a shitty draft take I've seen mentioned a bunch over the last few days? That Centers don't matter anymore and big men shouldn't be drafted that high. I'll use Jonathan Tjarks at The Ringer as an example, he basically argued that since Centers are so fungible and unimportant, it is hard to justify teams that take a Center high in the draft, so he dinged the Wiseman pick. This seems to ignore the recent evidence that big men are in fact, still extremely important. We just saw a playoffs that were largely defined and won by big men like Anthony Davis, Bam and Jokic. Sure, Jahlil Okafor's skillset is not very important in the modern NBA, but an uber-athletic, skilled guy like Wiseman is still insanely valuable and has incredible potential.
It's more that a) a lot more things have to go right for centers for them to be insanely valuable b) if you draft one with a high pick and he turns out to be merely an ok starter, that's a lot less valuable than drafting a wing who's an OK starter.

Jaylen Brown's extension was at least neutral value the day it was signed, since he was an ok wing then. An ok center would be worth ~$5M/year.

Having skilled, mobile big men is awesome--you just have fewer ways to be right and a lot more to be wrong.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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You know what's a shitty draft take I've seen mentioned a bunch over the last few days? That Centers don't matter anymore and big men shouldn't be drafted that high. I'll use Jonathan Tjarks at The Ringer as an example, he basically argued that since Centers are so fungible and unimportant, it is hard to justify teams that take a Center high in the draft, so he dinged the Wiseman pick. This seems to ignore the recent evidence that big men are in fact, still extremely important. We just saw a playoffs that were largely defined and won by big men like Anthony Davis, Bam and Jokic. Sure, Jahlil Okafor's skillset is not very important in the modern NBA, but an uber-athletic, skilled guy like Wiseman is still insanely valuable and has incredible potential.
Anthony Davis, Bam and Jokic have one thing in common and it's not that they are all mobile - it's that they are basically really skilled. In fact, they are like big guards (or in Bam's and AD's case, very tall wings).

Multi-dimensional, extremely skilled big guys may still be the most valuable player on the floor but one might say they are rarer than dominant wings.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The thing with a lot of highly drafted bigs is that they will enter the league with “the tools to be—but are not yet—a great defender” but a lot of them end up being...not that, and it’s enough to disrupt an entire defensive scheme if that skill never develops. It’s really tough to win playing 35+ minutes a night with a big who can’t credibly defend on the perimeter, in PnR situations, etc.
 

DannyDarwinism

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A couple of teams picked up guys that I really liked that also look like great fits, first and foremost is Dallas with Josh Green, a wing defender who's a great fit out on the break with a wizard Luka, Tyrell Terry in the second (teams must've really been scared off by his frame) as a reasonable approximation of Seth Curry, who they flipped for what should be a very useful two-way wing in Richardson, and Tyler Bey as a two-way contract guy who can defend and run if he pans out. They got better now with J-Rich and have a couple of pretty high upside guys if Green shoots and Terry gets strong enough. I'd be psyched if I was a Mavs fan.

Pelicans getting the lightning quick Kira Lewis to run a backcourt with Lonzo, and with guys like Zion, Bledsoe, Ingram and Jaxson Hayes is just a potentially insanely fun, fast and athletic team. Sam Merrill might not have the athleticism to play in the NBA, but he was one of the best shooters and scorers in the draft, and taking a shot at a guy like that with the last pick of the draft makes a ton of sense.

Sadly, I really like what Morey did for the Sixers. It wasn't too painful to get off of Horford, and losing Richardson's defense hurts a team that struggles to defend quicker guards, but they helped their spacing in a big way. Maxey's a better shooter than his college numbers indicate- he shot much better from 3 in AAU and in other environments, his FT% is encouraging, and he shot a ton of late-clock heaves at Kentucky- play he can get to the rim and he's a tough, if undersized defender. Great culture guy too. Joe slipped due to his frame, but he's a promising spot-up guy too- a skinny man's Nesmith. And Paul Reed is an athletic freak of a big man who severely needs some discipline, but does have upside as a defender and rim-runner.

I'm just glad I can root for Memphis again, as they got two of my favorite guys in the draft in Bane and Tillman. Both are lowish ceiling, but they both project as really solid role players. It stung to have the Celtics trade the pick that was used to take Bane, and I thought Tillman was the one guy who really could've come in right away and helped the Celtics on short notice this year.

Precious Achiuwa is a ways away, but the Heat are probably the best team to develop him, and him and Bam could be a serious problem together. Not thrilled about that pick from a conference rival.

Kings getting Haliburton to pair with Fox is gonna make for a really fun backcourt. Rumors that Hali wanted to go there and play with Fox to the extent that he shied away from other teams and took the corresponding salary hit are pretty strange, but if true it just shows the super mature and hoops-focused guy who doesn't care if he's playing in Ames of Sactown, as long as he's balling out. I put some money on him at 14-1 for RoY already and I'm thinking about laying down some more. I have no idea why Woodard slipped to 40 when it's so clear that wings his size who can defend and shoot are the most valuable pieces in the NBA. I'd much rather take a shot at a guy like that than a big who won't be able to play in the playoffs like Vernon Carey. Add in another potential two-way wing (although a 2/3 rather than a 3/4 like Woodard) in Jahmi'us Ramsey.

Other than Haliburton at +1400, I like Toppin +600, Hayes +700 and throwing some darts at Cole Anthony (Magic), Malachi Flynn (Raptors) and Maxey, all at +6000.

Pritchard at +8000 as four year college guy coming on to a team that likely will have a hole in backup PG with a starter who has an injury concern and will likely be given ample maintenance days isn’t crazy either.
 

the moops

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View: https://mobile.twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status/1329317310969098241


Baylor PF/C Freddie Gillespie signed with the Mavs as an undrafted FA late last night.

This was one I followed closely. For those who don’t know, Gillespie has an incredible story - played D3 ball at Carleton College in Minnesota (we overlapped one year), transferred to Baylor, made the team as a walk-on, earned a scholarship, and is now headed to the NBA. He deserves it, I’m psyched for him.

Is a great story. And Northfield is a lovely little town
 

benhogan

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A couple of teams picked up guys that I really liked that also look like great fits, first and foremost is Dallas with Josh Green, a wing defender who's a great fit out on the break with a wizard Luka, Tyrell Terry in the second (teams must've really been scared off by his frame) as a reasonable approximation of Seth Curry, who they flipped for what should be a very useful two-way wing in Richardson, and Tyler Bey as a two-way contract guy who can defend and run if he pans out. They got better now with J-Rich and have a couple of pretty high upside guys if Green shoots and Terry gets strong enough. I'd be psyched if I was a Mavs fan.

Pelicans getting the lightning quick Kira Lewis to run a backcourt with Lonzo, and with guys like Zion, Bledsoe, Ingram and Jaxson Hayes is just a potentially insanely fun, fast and athletic team. Sam Merrill might not have the athleticism to play in the NBA, but he was one of the best shooters and scorers in the draft, and taking a shot at a guy like that with the last pick of the draft makes a ton of sense.

Sadly, I really like what Morey did for the Sixers. It wasn't too painful to get off of Horford, and losing Richardson's defense hurts a team that struggles to defend quicker guards, but they helped their spacing in a big way. Maxey's a better shooter than his college numbers indicate- he shot much better from 3 in AAU and in other environments, his FT% is encouraging, and he shot a ton of late-clock heaves at Kentucky- play he can get to the rim and he's a tough, if undersized defender. Great culture guy too. Joe slipped due to his frame, but he's a promising spot-up guy too- a skinny man's Nesmith. And Paul Reed is an athletic freak of a big man who severely needs some discipline, but does have upside as a defender and rim-runner.

I'm just glad I can root for Memphis again, as they got two of my favorite guys in the draft in Bane and Tillman. Both are lowish ceiling, but they both project as really solid role players. It stung to have the Celtics trade the pick that was used to take Bane, and I thought Tillman was the one guy who really could've come in right away and helped the Celtics on short notice this year.

Precious Achiuwa is a ways away, but the Heat are probably the best team to develop him, and him and Bam could be a serious problem together. Not thrilled about that pick from a conference rival.

Kings getting Haliburton to pair with Fox is gonna make for a really fun backcourt. Rumors that Hali wanted to go there and play with Fox to the extent that he shied away from other teams and took the corresponding salary hit are pretty strange, but if true it just shows the super mature and hoops-focused guy who doesn't care if he's playing in Ames of Sactown, as long as he's balling out. I put some money on him at 14-1 for RoY already and I'm thinking about laying down some more. I have no idea why Woodard slipped to 40 when it's so clear that wings his size who can defend and shoot are the most valuable pieces in the NBA. I'd much rather take a shot at a guy like that than a big who won't be able to play in the playoffs like Vernon Carey. Add in another potential two-way wing (although a 2/3 rather than a 3/4 like Woodard) in Jahmi'us Ramsey.

Other than Haliburton at +1400, I like Toppin +600, Hayes +700 and throwing some darts at Cole Anthony (Magic), Malachi Flynn (Raptors) and Maxey, all at +6000.

Pritchard at +8000 as four year college guy coming on to a team that likely will have a hole in backup PG with a starter who has an injury concern and will likely be given ample maintenance days isn’t crazy either.
The Precious move by Miami is interesting, he screams Bam Lite. Made me consider if things breakdown between Giannis/Milwaukee and they want "Bam/Herro/Nunn/picks", Riley doesn't hesitate
 

DannyDarwinism

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The Precious move by Miami is interesting, he screams Bam Lite. Made me consider if things breakdown between Giannis/Milwaukee and they want "Bam/Herro/Nunn/picks", Riley doesn't hesitate
Yeah, it is interesting, and I hadn’t really thought about the Giannis angle, but that makes sense. Also, if Precious and Bam can play together (highly dependent on both of them improving their jump shots) that could be a terror of a defense. They both have the lateral quickness to defend the perimeter well, unlike Jaylen Smith going to Phoenix, which I think can really work on offense as a stretch four next to Ayton, but will be a tough defensive pairing
 

the moops

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The Precious move by Miami is interesting, he screams Bam Lite. Made me consider if things breakdown between Giannis/Milwaukee and they want "Bam/Herro/Nunn/picks", Riley doesn't hesitate
MIL is going to be good this year. There is almost zero chance that they deal Giannis at the deadline.