2020 NBA Draft discussion

DannyDarwinism

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Who is the Aingiest pick out there? I would think that Cole Anthony might tick a lot of boxes as a highly touted recruit who many thought would be a lottery pick but is sliding due to some fit issues in college.
Cole and McDaniels are definitely in the Jaylen/Romeo mould of blue-chippers who disappointed in less-than-ideal environments with poor spacing. Cole is reported to be prickly, but a guy who lives and breathes basketball. McDaniels is reported to have character concerns and a questionable love of the game, so of the two, I think Danny would rather roll the dice on Cole.

The aforementioned Terry, and Tyrese Maxey for combination of shooting, scoring and baller mindset. Not a great draft for scoring alphas though.

Desmond Bane's in the Grant mould of BBIQ + combat muscles - positional length.

Okoro and Josh Green have the strength + athleticism with a questionable jump shot that Jaylen had, though Jaylen's on another level in terms of explosion and body control.

Precious, Paul Reed and Paul Eboua for switchable big projects, which seems like a position of need.

Tillman because he's awesome and will be a useful NBA big.

Robert Woodard's another guy I wouldn't be surprised to learn Ainge was interested in at 30. Strong and long, but not particularly exciting.
 

chilidawg

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Cole and McDaniels are definitely in the Jaylen/Romeo mould of blue-chippers who disappointed in less-than-ideal environments with poor spacing. Cole is reported to be prickly, but a guy who lives and breathes basketball. McDaniels is reported to have character concerns and a questionable love of the game, so of the two, I think Danny would rather roll the dice on Cole.

The aforementioned Terry, and Tyrese Maxey for combination of shooting, scoring and baller mindset. Not a great draft for scoring alphas though.

Desmond Bane's in the Grant mould of BBIQ + combat muscles - positional length.

Okoro and Josh Green have the strength + athleticism with a questionable jump shot that Jaylen had, though Jaylen's on another level in terms of explosion and body control.

Precious, Paul Reed and Paul Eboua for switchable big projects, which seems like a position of need.

Tillman because he's awesome and will be a useful NBA big.

Robert Woodard's another guy I wouldn't be surprised to learn Ainge was interested in at 30. Strong and long, but not particularly exciting.
I just can't get past the high forehead, low headband, dreds combo with Anthony.
 

nighthob

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Tillman because he's awesome and will be a useful NBA big.
The more gametape that I watch with Tillman the more I like him. His defense is NBA ready, so I'd be happy if they used a late first on him.

Robert Woodard's another guy I wouldn't be surprised to learn Ainge was interested in at 30. Strong and long, but not particularly exciting.
Not as athletic as Tyler Bey, but the same height/length. He's a solid big wing defender to roll out between the Jays with his three point shooting.

O'Connor mentioned Patrick Williams and Tyrese Haliburton as targets of the teams that want to trade up.
It makes sense in another fashion with all the Hayward to Indiana rumors swirling. Boston would need eat an ugly contract in any such deal, so landing Detroit's guy at #6 might incline the Pistons to make a deal sparing Boston having to pay to unload a contract.

Who is the Aingiest pick out there? I would think that Cole Anthony might tick a lot of boxes as a highly touted recruit who many thought would be a lottery pick but is sliding due to some fit issues in college.
Anthony checks the high school star that failed in college box, and the gymratty box. But not the others. I'd be shocked if they bit on him.
 

NomarsFool

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Did teams each get 10 workouts in total, or 10 workouts per pick? I'd assume it was the former, but seems sort of unfair to a team like the Celtics with 3 1st round picks.
 

nighthob

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I'm really curious on your thoughts on a couple of potential second round guys that I think have some upside- Karim Mane and Nate Hinton. Mane's a raw two-way combo guard, with a decent handle, a nice looking shot and plus length and athleticism. Started playing hoops late and played college ball in Canada, so serious questions about his competition, but did well for Canada in FIBA U19. He actually played at Vanier College, where I guy I play pickup with played 15 years ago, so he's been hyping him to me, but he does look like the type of kid you follow the Romeo plan with- focus him on lock-down D while he slowly builds up the rest of his game.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-rAyldp1so&ab_channel=HoopIntellect



Nate Hinton's more of a typical athletic 3&D, but with an awesome motor and competitiveness. He's an elite rebounder for a guard, and he's flashed some pull-up scoring. I don't know if he's a guaranteed contract guy, but there's tools to work with and a lot of toughness.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ztoH_8ZR0&ab_channel=HardwoodHoopsCentral%27sNBADraftGreenRoom


https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/8/25/21362355/nate-hinton-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report-houston-atlanta-hawks-defense-analysis
I've seen Mane's names on second round lists, but hadn't had time to turn focus on him. I didn't catch any Houston games last year, so I didn't see Hinton play, but after seeing that Boston met with him I'll hit the gametape for him. I couldn't find any gametape for Mane, just the season highlight mixes, which help, but I prefer to see game mixtapes (I like seeing the great plays per game, gives me a better feel for the impact a guy will have).

That caveat aside I kind of dig Mane based on the scouting videos. The shooting motion's good, so he should be able to hit the trey in the NBA. Assuming the measurements are real (6'5" +7 wingspan), and they look it, he's got some upside as the PG as the Jay-Crew enters its prime. He stays in front of his man well enough and plays the passing lanes well.

The athleticism looks decent, though the level of competition makes it hard to evaluate. Reminds me a little of Theo Maledon with how shifty he is. He's also a little right hand dominant (again, like Maledon), but his left is somewhat useful. I'm adding him as a definite possibility at #47.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I've seen Mane's names on second round lists, but hadn't had time to turn focus on him. I didn't catch any Houston games last year, so I didn't see Hinton play, but after seeing that Boston met with him I'll hit the gametape for him. I couldn't find any gametape for Mane, just the season highlight mixes, which help, but I prefer to see game mixtapes (I like seeing the great plays per game, gives me a better feel for the impact a guy will have).

That caveat aside I kind of dig Mane based on the scouting videos. The shooting motion's good, so he should be able to hit the trey in the NBA. Assuming the measurements are real (6'5" +7 wingspan), and they look it, he's got some upside as the PG as the Jay-Crew enters its prime. He stays in front of his man well enough and plays the passing lanes well.

The athleticism looks decent, though the level of competition makes it hard to evaluate. Reminds me a little of Theo Maledon with how shifty he is. He's also a little right hand dominant (again, like Maledon), but his left is somewhat useful. I'm adding him as a definite possibility at #47.
I didn’t realize the Celtics had met with Hinton, that’s good to know.

Anthropomorphic measurements are now online:


Great to see Tillman with the 7’2 wingspan. Stewart’s shorter than I expected, but crazy long arms make up for it. Eboua and T. Bey also came in with great wingspans.
 

nighthob

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The more gametape I watch of Tillman the more I hope Boston picks him up at #26 or #30 and moves on from Timelord. I think Theis is fine as a starting C, only he draws his second foul by the game's opening tip. And their backup options leave something to be desired. Williams is still spacey on D, Grant's got serious BBIQ, but Tillman's a little longer, a little quicker, and with the size to bang with the larger guys. And there's plenty of playing time for Tillman here if they move on from Williams.
 

DannyDarwinism

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The more gametape I watch of Tillman the more I hope Boston picks him up at #26 or #30 and moves on from Timelord. I think Theis is fine as a starting C, only he draws his second foul by the game's opening tip. And their backup options leave something to be desired. Williams is still spacey on D, Grant's got serious BBIQ, but Tillman's a little longer, a little quicker, and with the size to bang with the larger guys. And there's plenty of playing time for Tillman here if they move on from Williams.
36249


I don’t think it’s likely the Celtics will be picking at 26, but if they do and Tillman’s there I really hope they pull the trigger. He’s the most NBA-ready big in the draft, and I think he actually has decent upside if he can extend his range. Shooting isn’t currently strength, but this was encouraging to see:

View: https://twitter.com/draftexpress/status/1324506738071130114?s=21


“Xavier Tillman didn't shoot many 3s at Michigan State, but he showed at the NBA Combine that he might have some untapped floor-spacing potential, finishing tied as the second best shooter in the star drill while making 75% of his attempts.”
 

oumbi

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Interesting on the video with Tillman, I think 4 of his 5 misses were from the same spot. Indeed, he did not make a single shot from that location. Probably indicative of nothing, but it was interesting.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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In before HRB checks in with an anecdote of seeing Shaq hit 95% of his free throws in an empty gym.
 

chilidawg

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I didn’t realize the Celtics had met with Hinton, that’s good to know.

Anthropomorphic measurements are now online:


Great to see Tillman with the 7’2 wingspan. Stewart’s shorter than I expected, but crazy long arms make up for it. Eboua and T. Bey also came in with great wingspans.
Random observation, Azubuike is 2.5" taller and has a 7" longer wingspan than Achiuwa, but his standing reach is only a 1/2" taller. How is that possible? Also, Terry at 6'1.5 with a similar wingspan.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Random observation, Azubuike is 2.5" taller and has a 7" longer wingspan than Achiuwa, but his standing reach is only a 1/2" taller. How is that possible? Also, Terry at 6'1.5 with a similar wingspan.
There’s a lot of skepticism on the numbers this year due to a lack of conformity in testing standards. Just one example in this thread:

View: https://twitter.com/sam_vecenie/status/1326667430899318785?s=21


“(I will note, I have some concerns on the veracity of these numbers. For instance, immediate look at Udoka Azubuike having a 9-foot-1 standing reach. That number is just….actively wrong.)

On Azubuike: I mean, for one, we have him measured at a 9-4.5 standing reach at the 2018 NBA Draft Combine. I don’t think his standing reach shrunk almost four inches in 2.5 years?

Second, look at him, and tell me his standing reach is shorter than Paul Reed’s?”

We should probably take these with a healthy grain of salt. Except the ones that confirm my biases and reinforce my preconceived notions. They can stay.
 

DannyDarwinism

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In before HRB checks in with an anecdote of seeing Shaq hit 95% of his free throws in an empty gym.
To be clear, I don’t think shooting will be a significant part of his arsenal, at least in his first year or two. He’s a refined junk yard big who plays really smart and effective defense, and is a very good passer. Grantesque, to an extent, though Tennessee’s offense really ran through Grant, whereas Tillman was putting in his best work operating out of the dunker spot or passing out of a short roll. Both of which he is really good at. Cassius Winston running things definitely helped. He’s also a fantastic screener, and again passes really well out of the short rolls. So there’d definitely be redundancy with Grant, but good players are good even if they’re similar to other good players. He’s not going to look great in the highlight videos but he’s the guy I’m probably most confident about providing value off of his rookie contract outside of maybe Okungwu, Haliburton and S. Bey.
 

benhogan

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The Athletic has some intriguing potential picks at 26 & 30. (def worth subscribing! have added some quotes)



Woodard
He is a big brute with a 7-foot-2 wingspan, yet he has the fluid hips and responsive feet of a more nimble defender. This allows him to be a presence at the rim both on the ball and rotating over from the weak side,

Tillie (I'd rather see him at 47) He’s got a lot of Kelly Olynyk to his game, for better and for worse. Tillie is a knockdown spot-up shooter who was phenomenal in the pick-and-pop this season for Gonzaga

Terry There are enough similarities to Atlanta’s Trae Young to make your mouth water and he is a great spot-up shooter, so he doesn’t have to pound the rock to be effective. Much like Young, he has flashes of brilliance as a passer, but issues plenty of lousy turnovers as well. He is also great at jumping passing lanes to get pick-sixes, but he seems like a mediocre pick-and-roll defender with limited versatility. It’s unlikely he is a massive negative on defense like Young,

Maledon A nice fit to replace Brad Wanamaker, Maledon is a 6-foot-5 pick-and-roll maestro who makes nice reads against the kinds of drop coverages he’ll see in the NBA

Nnaji There is a mid-range jumper already there in his game and it’s possible he could slide back toward the 3-point line. He’s a good rebounder and moves well enough to defend the pick-and-roll, but he doesn’t protect the rim well for someone of his size.

Tillman There is a lot of role overlap between Tillman and Grant Williams, though the Michigan State center trades off the Celtics guard’s shooting touch for better size in the paint. Tillman is likewise considered a sure thing as a solid role player, a great pick-and-roll big at 6-foot-9 in shoes who will be an impact player on defense. One thing that can help him turn into an effective roll man is his gigantic hands, the biggest in the draft at 11 inches wide and 10.25 inches long.

Stewart Stewart is only 6-foot-7 1/4 in socks, but he plays with the force and athleticism of a behemoth center and has a wingspan to give him a reach comparable to his taller peers. Eyes around the league opened wide Wednesday when the combine measurements revealed his standing reach is just a hair over 9 feet, putting him in the range of most of the draft’s bigger centers.

Quickley He may be a stretch to take at 30, but Quickley has been showing his drastically improved spot-up shooting is legit in draft workouts and he could be in play in the late first-round. He’s a good enough ball-handler to lead some actions coming off the bench and is a good defender against most guards and wings. He brings a lot of the versatility of Maledon with his size (he’s 6-foot-2 in socks but with a 6-foot-8 1/4 wingspan
 
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BigSoxFan

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ESPN latest mock has Tillman going 30 to the Celtics


14. Lewis (RJ @ 15)
26. Bolmaro stashed (Terry @ 28)
30. Tillman

47. Yam Madar, Tel Aviv

I'd love this draft...I'd rather have Jones or Reed at 47, but that's picking nits
Not a bad draft at all but if Terry is there at 26, I’m 100% taking him in lieu of a stash.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm getting the feeling that if Danny sits tight with all 4 picks, we'll see 2 stashes which puts Pokey in play at 14 :(
If Pokey is in play, I am going to need a comfort animal to get me through the remainder of the draft/offseason...
 

DannyDarwinism

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There’s just no way we’re using all our picks. If we don’t move up, I’d expect they’d be flipped for future picks or stapled to move Vinny.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Or stashed....wouldn’t shock me if 1-2 sit abroad.
Boise State’s Justinian Jessup recently signed a one year contract in the NBL, so he’d be eligible as a stash. 6’7 shooter who was at 40% 3Pt for his college career and shot 96% from the line (70/73) this year. He’s been getting the Duncan Robinson comps from draftniks this year. Name to keep an eye on.
 

DannyDarwinism

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The Athletic has some intriguing potential picks at 26 & 30. (def worth subscribing! have added some quotes)



Woodard He is a big brute with a 7-foot-2 wingspan, yet he has the fluid hips and responsive feet of a more nimble defender. This allows him to be a presence at the rim both on the ball and rotating over from the weak side,

Tillie (I'd rather see him at 47) He’s got a lot of Kelly Olynyk to his game, for better and for worse. Tillie is a knockdown spot-up shooter who was phenomenal in the pick-and-pop this season for Gonzaga

Terry There are enough similarities to Atlanta’s Trae Young to make your mouth water and he is a great spot-up shooter, so he doesn’t have to pound the rock to be effective. Much like Young, he has flashes of brilliance as a passer, but issues plenty of lousy turnovers as well. He is also great at jumping passing lanes to get pick-sixes, but he seems like a mediocre pick-and-roll defender with limited versatility. It’s unlikely he is a massive negative on defense like Young,

Maledon A nice fit to replace Brad Wanamaker, Maledon is a 6-foot-5 pick-and-roll maestro who makes nice reads against the kinds of drop coverages he’ll see in the NBA

Nnaji There is a mid-range jumper already there in his game and it’s possible he could slide back toward the 3-point line. He’s a good rebounder and moves well enough to defend the pick-and-roll, but he doesn’t protect the rim well for someone of his size.

Tillman There is a lot of role overlap between Tillman and Grant Williams, though the Michigan State center trades off the Celtics guard’s shooting touch for better size in the paint. Tillman is likewise considered a sure thing as a solid role player, a great pick-and-roll big at 6-foot-9 in shoes who will be an impact player on defense. One thing that can help him turn into an effective roll man is his gigantic hands, the biggest in the draft at 11 inches wide and 10.25 inches long.

Stewart Stewart is only 6-foot-7 1/4 in socks, but he plays with the force and athleticism of a behemoth center and has a wingspan to give him a reach comparable to his taller peers. Eyes around the league opened wide Wednesday when the combine measurements revealed his standing reach is just a hair over 9 feet, putting him in the range of most of the draft’s bigger centers.

Quickley He may be a stretch to take at 30, but Quickley has been showing his drastically improved spot-up shooting is legit in draft workouts and he could be in play in the late first-round. He’s a good enough ball-handler to lead some actions coming off the bench and is a good defender against most guards and wings. He brings a lot of the versatility of Maledon with his size (he’s 6-foot-2 in socks but with a 6-foot-8 1/4 wingspan
I get that we have to compare all white Zags bigs to each other, but Tillie's sufficiently more adept on the perimeter that I think an Olynyk comp isn't particularly useful. His feet are quicker and I think he's a better bet to guard out to the perimeter, and offensively his game is much more perimeter oriented than Kelly's was (4.4 3PA/40 to Olynyk's 1.7and a .340 3PAr vs .132). I do generally like Weiss a lot, but I think he's a bit off there.
 

nighthob

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Boise State’s Justinian Jessup recently signed a one year contract in the NBL, so he’d be eligible as a stash. 6’7 shooter who was at 40% 3Pt for his college career and shot 96% from the line (70/73) this year. He’s been getting the Duncan Robinson comps from draftniks this year. Name to keep an eye on.
I had been thinking about this as regards guys that would normally be second rounders, but have definite upside (Tillie, Jay Scrubb, Josh Hall) and whether or not they would agree to play overseas for a year in exchange for a first round selection and a promise to guarantee all four years.
 

nighthob

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That would make sense as part of a Westbrook trade, Houston might prefer extra picks given they're about to go into teardown mode. So Boston gets Vassell and Houston gets 14 & 26 as part of their return for Westbrook.
 

Jimbodandy

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That would make sense as part of a Westbrook trade, Houston might prefer extra picks given they're about to go into teardown mode. So Boston gets Vassell and Houston gets 14 & 26 as part of their return for Westbrook.
Do you like Vassell that much? Iirc, that's a yes.

Fwiw, I know that this draft is as flat as it gets, but I'd love to see DA get his guy rather than hoping that the guy drops to him.
 

nighthob

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Well, NBA Twitter threw a damp cloth over everything. The current rumor is that Boston is trading up to flip the pick to New Orleans for Holiday. Which means that Hayward's definitely outbound and that Walker's knee is worse than Boston's been admitting.
 

nighthob

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At least they didn't have Boston drafting someone from the Uzbekistan Even More Glorious Than Kazakhstan Basketball League as a draft & stash.

"I think Artur Kolganov makes a lot of sense for Boston, he was a fabulous three point shooter for the Samarqand Borat-Stranglers where he was a key reserve, but he really came on after being traded to the Nukus LaLooshes where he averaged a double double for the year."
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah the speculation is getting worse, not better. There is zero fucking chance in hell that Terry falls to the second round, unless he breaks something between now and the draft.
 

chilidawg

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SB Nation did a mock with a writer from each city making the pick, no trades. Kind of a fun way to do it, and at least you've got someone doing the picking that knows the team and whatever rumours are flying around. Toppin drops to 14 for the C's, and then they get Terry and Joe. Must be thinking offense. I like it.

 

DannyDarwinism

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If Pokey is in play, I am going to need a comfort animal to get me through the remainder of the draft/offseason...
The thing about Poku is that if we draft him I think that’s likely a good sign that they got positive intel on him, and if I knew he had a great mental makeup, I’m sure I’d get really excited about him. He is crazy skilled and his stroke is pure. If he was a looooot stronger, he’d make a very good prospect. But it’s gonna be rough for him, coming to a new country and getting bodied by grown-ass NBA players, if he even gets minutes. He’s an investment - if he can spend two years working on his body while learning the game and settling in to the US , laying down good habits and getting some of that Giannis HGH, he may pay off big, but I don’t think there’s much chance Ainge drafts a kid like him without a decent read on what makes him tick.
 
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DannyDarwinism

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Sam Merrill is 6'5 and shot 47/42/89 - 62TS%- on high volume over four years at Utah State while averaging 3.6 assists to 1.6 TOs per game. Deep range, quick release and can shoot off of movement.

He's 24.5, so 6 months older than Jaylen, and isn't a great athlete, but he defends hard and smart. The people pining for Aaron Nesmith's shooting- which I agree is a great fit- should take a look at this guy as a second round alternative. He doesn't have the length, strength or competition-level that Nesmith had, but he has a much bigger sample size of elite shooting, plus a decent handle and he actually passes the ball, and he'd be a better bet as second unit secondary ball handler if he can adapt to NBA level athleticism.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/sam-merrill-1.html

Coach Spins video:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sDg1uP6XHI&ab_channel=AdamSpinella


Scouting Report:
https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/5/5/21247783/sam-merrill-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report-utah-state-shooting
 

Cellar-Door

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How is he 24 and a half? How many times do you need to be held back to graduate college at 24?
Since he played at Utah state, my guess is he's a Mormon and went on Mission for 2-3 years

Edit- yep did a mission between high school and college, so he started as a 21 year old Freshman
 

DannyDarwinism

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Ha! Too late for me.

I've always been surprised at the shift over time of people graduating HS later, but college at 24 seemed like a lot even by 21st century standards.
He’s only 2 months younger than the butt of all the old man jokes from last year’s draft, Cam Johnson. But hey, he’s two years younger than Duncan Robinson, who was also basically a rookie last year.
 

RSN

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Sam Merril is a bit of a dick on the court - which is a good thing.The best player in this draft and the best fit for Boston will be Onywk Okongwu. Would love to see the Celts get high enough to draft him.
 

FredCDobbs

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The thing about Poku is that if we draft him I think that’s likely a good sign that they got positive intel on him, and if I knew he had a great mental makeup, I’m sure I’d get really excited about him. He is crazy skilled and his stroke is pure. If he was a looooot stronger, he’d make a very good prospect. But it’s gonna be rough for him, coming to a new country and getting bodied by grown-ass NBA players, if he even gets minutes. He’s an investment - if he can spend two years working on his body while learning the game and settling in to the US , laying down good habits and getting some of that Giannis HGH, he may pay off big, but I don’t think there’s much chance Ainge drafts a kid like him without a decent read on what makes him tick.
I want Poku. Fuck it. Let's do it. I actually love his legs and movement, which is vital for a big man.

No trade, Poku at 14.
 

Royal Reader

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I'd totally forgotten that Okongwu was a high school team mate of the Ball brothers.

Seeing a lot of "LaMelo going one isn't necessarily what we'd do, but is what's likely to happen" buzz the last few days.
 

Imbricus

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The thing about Poku is that if we draft him I think that’s likely a good sign that they got positive intel on him
His comp here is, not surprisingly, Bender. Hard for me to believe Ainge would roll the dice with a lottery pick on a touted rail-thin international big man when the last touted rail-thin international big man flamed out.
 

DannyDarwinism

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His comp here is, not surprisingly, Bender. Hard for me to believe Ainge would roll the dice with a lottery pick on a touted rail-thin international big man when the last touted rail-thin international big man flamed out.
Yeah, we touched on the Bender comps a while back in the thread:

Poku, if he pans out at all, screams "second contract guy" to me. Smart people love his skills, but that frame just has not worked in the NBA very often at all, and Ainge pretty clearly thinks strength is an important attribute. So if you think he's got the mental fortitude to persevere while getting pummeled by the Mook Morrises of the world, so that he's learning enough while his body fills out to make it worth picking up his third and fourth year options, then I'm all for taking the gamble. Bender is certainly the cautionary tale here, and while Poku's frame makes Dragan look like Ivan Drago, the kid's spine better be made of sterner stuff.
It’s that time in this extended predraft process where I start making the same exact arguments trying to talk myself into guy as I made talking myself out of them two months earlier...

I haven’t really heard much about Poku’s makeup (beyond BBQ) and I consume a stupid amount of NBA draft stuff. The absence of info doesn’t mean he’s not a tough kid, but I expect it’s harder to get a read on that type of stuff from a kid coming out of the Greek Second Division than it is from a kid coming out of the SEC, even for front office guys, so it would certainly be a gamble. On the other hand, there’s lots of good intel that a lot of the kids in the 14 range are hard-working, mature, gym rats who live for basketball. That stuff is really important for guys hitting on their potential, which is why I’m leery of someone like McDaniels, even with all his tools. It’s gotta be even more important for 19 year old kids coming to a new country where they don’t know the culture or speak the language, in the midst of a pandemic. Though regarding Bender, as much as I want someone who’ll provide value on his rookie contract with that 14th pick, it’s a big difference between striking out on that and striking out with the third pick, especially considering the roster differences between now and then.