2020 NBA Draft discussion

BigSoxFan

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They have the Celtics with Hampton at 14, though looks like they're trying to trade up:

Wonder who they might be targeting if they can move up.
My money is on Okongwu if they can move up. He would be a nice piece for this team given his shot blocking and ability to switch on D. Not sure I'd want to trade all 3 picks for any other guy in the mid-lotto. Rather just stay at 14/26/30 and take more swings.
 

Cellar-Door

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They have the Celtics with Hampton at 14, though looks like they're trying to trade up:

Wonder who they might be targeting if they can move up.
Have to think they don't have the juice to get up to one of the 2 top big guys in Wiseman and Okongwu...

Hayes maybe? Halliburton or Vassell?
 

nighthob

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BSF has the right of it, I think. I love Vassell and think he’s going to have a long career as an elite 3&D guy. But I’m not sure the upgrade from Nesmith to Vassell is worth the draft. Okongwu I could see.
 

bakahump

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Wasnt this said about Tatum?
  • Not an explosive player; he lacks a quick first step, and shows little burst on the drive or hops around the rim.
  • Clunky off-hand dribbler with limited shot-creation ability against pro defenders.

Lightning probably wont strike twice but I like Bey. And if these are his major weaknesses I would take him and hope for a "Tatum Lite" improvement.
 

Cellar-Door

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Wasnt this said about Tatum?
  • Not an explosive player; he lacks a quick first step, and shows little burst on the drive or hops around the rim.
  • Clunky off-hand dribbler with limited shot-creation ability against pro defenders.

Lightning probably wont strike twice but I like Bey. And if these are his major weaknesses I would take him and hope for a "Tatum Lite" improvement.
yeah...... Tatum was an elite prospect who had barely turned 19, Bey is closing in on 22 and his general comparisons are... "might be Jae Crowder".

If you are looking for a "Tatum lite" in this draft it's probably Vassell
 

Swedgin

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BSF has the right of it, I think. I love Vassell and think he’s going to have a long career as an elite 3&D guy. But I’m not sure the upgrade from Nesmith to Vassell is worth the draft. Okongwu I could see.
Agreed, but it seems like a hard deal to make. Okongwu is a great fit for the one team, the Wiz, in the top 9 that (arguably) has its stars and needs depth.
 

chilidawg

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cbssports.com's mock


Has for Boston:

#14 - G Aaron Nesmith, Vanderbilt, 6'6" - "The Celtics' lack of wing depth was exposed in the playoffs, and Nesmith should immediately provide offense and floor spacing as one of the best wing shooters in the draft. Creating his own shot isn't a strength, but he won't need to with the bevy of playmakers up and down Boston's roster."

#26 - F Xavier Tillman, Michigan State, 6'8" - "It's no secret that the Celtics have big man issues, and Tillman should be able to help on both ends. In addition to his defense and rebounding, he's a solid playmaker from the high post, which would create a different look than what Robert Williams provides."

#30 - F Elijah Hughes, Syracuse, 6'6" - "Hughes' mechanics suggest he'll shoot better than he did last season at Syracuse, and he has sneaky off-the-dribble and playmaking ability. Boston could use him to help improve its wing depth."


I'm a Syracuse guy, but I'm not bullish on Hughes. Otherwise, I'd sign up for this draft (love Nesmith and his fit in Boston), and even Hughes has decent size and ability for a wing.
Always interesting to see who they're passing up at each pick.
14. Anthony, Bane, Achiuwa, Hampton. I like Nesmith but think I'd take Hampton or Achiuwa, more upside. Nesmith is a good fit though.
26. Stewart, Green, Winston. Stewart definitely has more upside, and shows potential as a shooter. Tillman more a plug and play guy.
30. Among others, Tillie, Carey, Otoru, Tyler Bey, Tre Jones. I don't know much about Hughes but think I'd take any of those guys.
 

Cellar-Door

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Always interesting to see who they're passing up at each pick.
14. Anthony, Bane, Achiuwa, Hampton. I like Nesmith but think I'd take Hampton or Achiuwa, more upside. Nesmith is a good fit though.
26. Stewart, Green, Winston. Stewart definitely has more upside, and shows potential as a shooter. Tillman more a plug and play guy.
30. Among others, Tillie, Carey, Otoru, Tyler Bey, Tre Jones. I don't know much about Hughes but think I'd take any of those guys.
Comparing to KOC at the Ringer:

#14 he has Hampton, passing on Achiuwa, Nesmith, and Bey
#26 he has Bolmaro, passing on Stewart, Flynn and Maledon
#30 he has Tillie,
 

oumbi

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I. Would love for The Celtics to roll the dice on Tillie at 30. He is very talented, smart, passes, and shoots well.injuries are a concern, but at 30 worth the risk. CBS could find lots of ways to use his talents.
 

CreedBratton

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I. Would love for The Celtics to roll the dice on Tillie at 30. He is very talented, smart, passes, and shoots well.injuries are a concern, but at 30 worth the risk. CBS could find lots of ways to use his talents.
100% Tillie. If he can stay healthy he is a massive steal. As a Gonzaga fan, he is terrific and absolutely should be picked at 26/30 by celts.
 

NomarsFool

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You know like they say about Jaguars - "If you're going to get one, buy two so you have something to drive while the other is in the shop".

I kind of feel that way about 5s :) (especially with TimeLord)
 

nighthob

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100% Tillie. If he can stay healthy he is a massive steal. As a Gonzaga fan, he is terrific and absolutely should be picked at 26/30 by celts.
Between major knee surgery, torn foot ligaments, the hip injuries, and the 379 sprained ankles, I'm off the Tillie train. I mean if he's there at 47, sure. May as well.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Between major knee surgery, torn foot ligaments, the hip injuries, and the 379 sprained ankles, I'm off the Tillie train. I mean if he's there at 47, sure. May as well.
Last guy I felt was a no doubt lottery pick that fell due to injury concerns was Levert, so I’m a bit triggered here, but I do think he’s a good prospect and a very good fit and I’d be fine with red-shirting him a la Michael Porter if need be if we take him at 30. I’m confident he’ll be a solid team defender and a good shooter, and I’d bet if healthy he’ll provide more value in his rookie contract than 60% of the lottery picks. The injuries are concerning, but young guys heal quick.

I’m getting some Terry vibes for the Celtics lately. Apparently he cracked the NBA’s version of the Wonderlic and got the best score ever. I think Ainge wants shooting and sees some Herro in him and doesn’t want that to slip by again.
 

nighthob

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Bigs with bad bases are a huge red flag. I’d much rather have Xavier Tillman.
 

Jimbodandy

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I’m getting some Terry vibes for the Celtics lately. Apparently he cracked the NBA’s version of the Wonderlic and got the best score ever. I think Ainge wants shooting and sees some Herro in him and doesn’t want that to slip by again.
I think that you're right. Everyone has question marks. In the Shooter bucket, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they think that Terry has fewer question marks than Nesmith. And it shouldn't surprise anyone if they take a shooter.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I think that you're right. Everyone has question marks. In the Shooter bucket, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they think that Terry has fewer question marks than Nesmith. And it shouldn't surprise anyone if they take a shooter.
Yeah, I don’t want to undersell him- Nesmith really is an incredible catch-and-shoot prospect, and he's elitte at getting good looks through constant movement/screens, like a Rip Hamilton or late career Ray Allen. Stackhouse had him running pretty advanced sets this year, and he was poetry in motion getting open. But Terry can play off-ball like that, plus shoot off of the dribble and run a crisp offense while Nesmith can barely put the ball on an NBA floor at this point. Given Ainge's reported interest in Herro, plus the Carsen and Tremont picks, I think the gravity-warping, deep pull up threat off the bounce is something he really values. Plus there's the intangible stuff- he’s a very high BBIQ, fiery competitor, gym rat kid who's team won a lot. To be fair, I've heard mostly good stuff about Nesmith too, though Vandy really struggled in his two years. But he is elite at the most important skill in the NBA, and he brings prototypical size and strength, if underwhelming athleticism. And he’s a switchable defender, while Terry is limited to PGs and small twos.

It's just my sense based on what it seems like Ainge looks for lately, but there are certainly other factors. This is a deep PG draft compared to wings. Wasserman said executive's views on Terry are pretty varied, with some having him as a lottery pick, and some a fringe first rounder, but his stock does seem to be rising. He's a year younger than Nesmith, for what it's worth.

Philosophically, for the Jayson/Jaylen years of this team, do you want the guy who's maybe 85% of Klay or the guy who's 85% of Steph? Or, probably more realistically, Trae Young/Danny Green?
 

reggiecleveland

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You know like they say about Jaguars - "If you're going to get one, buy two so you have something to drive while the other is in the shop".

I kind of feel that way about 5s :) (especially with TimeLord)
Money, Aircraft carriers, pitching, blow, hookers, Nukes, forwards

Alex, what are things you can never have too much or too many of
 

nighthob

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I’m getting some Terry vibes for the Celtics lately. Apparently he cracked the NBA’s version of the Wonderlic and got the best score ever. I think Ainge wants shooting and sees some Herro in him and doesn’t want that to slip by again.
I’ve been rethinking the rumor about Boston moving up and watching more Vassell game tape. And the more I watch the more I see the guy Boston’s targeting. You don’t really get a sense of just how otherworldly his passing lane defense is from the scouting videos. In any given game reel there are just so many steals and deflections. He’s a destroyer of worlds in the passing lanes, just the idea of starting him alongside the J-Crew has to have other coaches reaching for their stock of Alka-Seltzer and scotch.

His pull up shooting is good and can get even better and he has some really deep range. All told I suspect that he’s the guy Ainge is targeting. Because that wing alignment is going to be death on other teams.
 

nighthob

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Here's my full breakdown of Vassell that I posted elsewhere.

Pros
  • Holy shit is his defense a lot better than you get looking at scouting videos. Until you watch game tape you have no idea just how much a destroyer of worlds he is in the passing lanes. There are just so many deflections that when you watch the game tape you see that he alters opposing offenses at the college level. That will be harder at the pro level except that in Boston they have Jayson Tatum who also demolishes passing lanes (and Jaylen's no slouch either).
  • Great size/speed/length combination for the wing.Really looooong. He's listed at a mere +3 wingspan at 6'7", but he looks even longer than that. Great speed/quickness combination. This of course is a big part of the point above.
  • He can fire off treys from a loooong way off. Thirty feet and in a defender's going to have to stick to him like glue.
  • Not a bad pull up shooter and getting better. He's very quick which allows him to create separation even in the mid ranges.
  • Great transition player. Like Jaylen he's a stone cold killer in the open court.
  • Good at attacking closeouts.
  • Anticipates rebounds well. He always gets a garbage bucket or two a game following shots for the offensive putback. Does the same thing on defense, gets to the rebound in motion to launch the break.

Cons
  • He needs body work. He's listed at 195, but I don't believe that for moment. He makes Jayson look fat. He needs a good 30-35lbs to survive the pounding at the next level.
  • The handle needs work. He's fine in the open court, but in the halfcourt sets the dribble's a little too loose.
  • Needs to improve his finishing game. Part of this is that he looks like he's 185 tops and bounces off people at the college level. Part is that he struggles more in the halfcourt and settles for too many shots in the 3'—>10' range.
  • The jumper needs a little refinement. He's a better catch & shoot guy than pull up one. The release is a touch slow, there's just a hint of a timing issue (a tiny hitch on the shot), the footwork on pull ups isn't ideal. I'm picking at nits, here, but it's the difference between being a 3&D guy and a two way star.

My first inclination when I saw the rumor about Boston trading up was that they were after Okongwu as a potential Bam killer. But the more I look at Vassell the more I think that he's the one they're chasing. He's not quite the all round offensive player that Herro is, but they're light years apart defensively. And playing as the weak side shooter off the Jay Crew Vassell is going to bury opponents with a barrage of treys.
 

BigSoxFan

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Here's my full breakdown of Vassell that I posted elsewhere.

Pros

  • [li]Holy shit is his defense a lot better than you get looking at scouting videos. Until you watch game tape you have no idea just how much a destroyer of worlds he is in the passing lanes. There are just so many deflections that when you watch the game tape you see that he alters opposing offenses at the college level. That will be harder at the pro level except that in Boston they have Jayson Tatum who also demolishes passing lanes (and Jaylen's no slouch either). [/li]
    [li]Great size/speed/length combination for the wing.Really looooong. He's listed at a mere +3 wingspan at 6'7", but he looks even longer than that. Great speed/quickness combination. This of course is a big part of the point above.[/li]
    [li]He can fire off treys from a loooong way off. Thirty feet and in a defender's going to have to stick to him like glue.[/li]
    [li]Not a bad pull up shooter and getting better. He's very quick which allows him to create separation even in the mid ranges.[/li]
    [li]Great transition player. Like Jaylen he's a stone cold killer in the open court.[/li]
    [li]Good at attacking closeouts.[/li]
    [li]Anticipates rebounds well. He always gets a garbage bucket or two a game following shots for the offensive putback. Does the same thing on defense, gets to the rebound in motion to launch the break.[/li]

Cons

  • [li]He needs body work. He's listed at 195, but I don't believe that for moment. He makes Jayson look fat. He needs a good 30-35lbs to survive the pounding at the next level.[/li]
    [li]The handle needs work. He's fine in the open court, but in the halfcourt sets the dribble's a little too loose.[/li]
    [li]Needs to improve his finishing game. Part of this is that he looks like he's 185 tops and bounces off people at the college level. Part is that he struggles more in the halfcourt and settles for too many shots in the 3'—>10' range.[/li]
    [li]The jumper needs a little refinement. He's a better catch & shoot guy than pull up one. The release is a touch slow, there's just a hint of a timing issue (a tiny hitch on the shot), the footwork on pull ups isn't ideal. I'm picking at nits, here, but it's the difference between being a 3&D guy and a two way star.[/li]

My first inclination when I saw the rumor about Boston trading up was that they were after Okongwu as a potential Bam killer. But the more I look at Vassell the more I think that he's the one they're chasing. He's not quite the all round offensive player that Herro is, but they're light years apart defensively. And playing as the weak side shooter off the Jay Crew Vassell is going to bury opponents with a barrage of treys.
Since Okongwu is probably a top 5-6 guy, you may be right. I don't think we have the juice to get to 5-6 but getting to 9-11 to scoop up Vassell seems doable. He's not the pure shooter we need but he's not Semi either. Adding a potentially elite 3+D guy to the Jay's would be fun.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I’ve been rethinking the rumor about Boston moving up and watching more Vassell game tape. And the more I watch the more I see the guy Boston’s targeting. You don’t really get a sense of just how otherworldly his passing lane defense is from the scouting videos. In any given game reel there are just so many steals and deflections. He’s a destroyer of worlds in the passing lanes, just the idea of starting him alongside the J-Crew has to have other coaches reaching for their stock of Alka-Seltzer and scotch.

His pull up shooting is good and can get even better and he has some really deep range. All told I suspect that he’s the guy Ainge is targeting. Because that wing alignment is going to be death on other teams.
It really would be sick on defense. He reminds me of Mikal Bridges with his awareness, plus the way he annihilates lanes and gets deflections. I was never too worried about the video of him messing around with a couple of 28 foot jumpers. He’s always had a high release point, but I seriously doubt he’s gone with a full Marcus Camby shot rebuild.

Speaking of stars of the late 90s, something about his build and movement kinda reminds me of Kerry Kittles.
 

EL Jeffe

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Chad Ford put out a mock today.

14. Kira Lewis
26. Theo Maledon (draft & stash)
30. Isaiah Stewart

I do like Lewis and he seems to be making a late rise (he's been a bit of a rollercoaster, but maybe that's just Draft Twitter and he's always been viewed in this area). Skinny as heck, but you can generally fix skinny. He does have some height and length (6'3, 8'5 standing reach), very fast, bouncy, and good first step. Pretty good shooter, can go left. or right, and young for his draft class. I'm not sure he's a plus facilitator, but he wouldn't need to be in Boston. He does look like both a shot maker and a shot creator, which the 2nd unit could certainly use. I'm fairly agnostic on Maledon and Stewart. Ford doesn't think they'll keep all 3 picks and Maledon would obviously be a draft and stash.
 

nighthob

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Stewart is the prototypical modern big, quick enough to hedge out on the perimeter without getting too badly exposed, but big/strong/long enough (6'9" 255 +7 wingspan) to hold his own against the Joel Embiids of the NBA. Maledon is a lot like David Givens, not fast but incredibly shifty. He changes speed/direction on a dime. The shooting form needs work, though. And I highly doubt that Boston drafts two PGs.
 

EL Jeffe

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Stewart is the prototypical modern big, quick enough to hedge out on the perimeter without getting too badly exposed, but big/strong/long enough (6'9" 255 +7 wingspan) to hold his own against the Joel Embiids of the NBA. Maledon is a lot like David Givens, not fast but incredibly shifty. He changes speed/direction on a dime. The shooting form needs work, though. And I highly doubt that Boston drafts two PGs.
What's your take on Kira Lewis? I believe you've got Hampton solidly above him.
 

nighthob

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My preference for Hampton is strictly a size thing. At 6'5" with a plus wingspan he's incredibly switchable and fast enough to guard even the Kira Lewises of the world. I love Kira's speed and his ability to change directions. He's also always under control. Hampton sometimes plays too fast for his handle, Lewis does not. It helps that his handle is so tight. The ability to finish to his left is also a huge plus.

He can't be a primary scorer yet, the release on the jumper's a little slow for his size in the NBA. (When you're 6'3" you better be able to get that shot off in a flash.) But when you have a gravity warping scorer like Tatum you don't worry about that. You worry about the guys that can score playing off him. So he's a better fit in Boston than he would be someplace like Detroit.
 

ColonelMustard

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My personal preferences ranked are:
1) Hampton - I think his playmaking is otherworldly. His athletic ability is transient and he's a dynamic creator. If his shooting improvement is real, I think he can be something special in this league.
2) Terry - His shooting is elite. He will so many opportunities to light it up in CBS's offense with catching off the screens. He's also a fantastic distributor
3) Kira - He's very technically sound but a tier below as a playmaker to Hampton and a tier below as a shooter to Terry. For his frame to translate to the NBA, he's going to need to be an elite over 40% shooter.
 
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BigSoxFan

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I've been watching Terry's highlights lately and he is really growing on me and he gives me Herro vibes. Obviously on the smaller side but his shooting would be lethal next to the Jay's and his playmaking skills were better than I expected. Size will always limit his defensive effectiveness at next level but he competes on that end. It would be awesome if he fell to the late teens/early 20s and we could take Hampton/Nesmith/Achiuwa at 14 and trade 26/30 to nab Terry. Not sure that would be enough but that's my dream scenario. Feel like he'd be a perfect fit for Dallas at #17 given Luka's size and playmaking skills.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Coach Spins is less impressed with Haliburton as a trade up target, despite his obvious fit.

I agree with a lot of that. Haliburton’s lack of a handle really hurts him in the half court. He’s just not a guy that’ll be getting to the rim or driving and kicking in the NBA, and he needs to quicken up his shot to be a serious off-ball threat. Still, his BBIQ is off the charts and if he can be Lonzo with a jumper, that’s a rwpretty nice complementary player.

Spins also wrote up some of the late first and second round bigs that captured my thoughts pretty well on Tillman, Nnaji, Stewart, Carey, Oturu and Wesson:

 

RedOctober3829

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John Hollinger put out his mock draft on the Athletic. He seems to think the Celtics could be in good position to trade up in the draft because so many teams want to trade down. He thinks a move up to 9 in a swap for 14/26/30 with Washington makes sense if Okwangu is taken before 9. He also mentions a trade up to 11 with San Antonio for 14/26. His favorite draft day trade possibility involving the Celtics would be getting Larry Nance from Cleveland. He says if they trade up it would be to get Issac Okoro or Devin Vassell who he has going 11 and 12. If they stay at 14, he has them taking Saddiq Bey with Aleksej Pokusevski as a name to also watch as they could stash him in Greece for a year. At 26, he gives them Leando Bolmaro and at 30 Tyler Bey but he doesn't expect Boston to be picking at either 26 or 30.

 
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Can people who know (like Nighthob) share their take on a guy like Jalen Smith? From reading/watching highlights (obviously not the best way to evaluate) he seems like a great offensive fit for the Cs because he can shoot, move really well, and get up for lobs. Defensively, he seems athletic enough to play as a rim protector and credibly defend in space, but maybe a bit light in the pants for the Joel Embiid's of the world. Anyone else interested him as a rotation big if he falls to 14?
 

nighthob

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I like Jalen Smith in a vacuum. The problem is that this draft is full of rotation bigs and I can't see much that Smith does that someone like Xavier Tillman can't. And Tillman does a few things better than Smith does with his limited mass (Tillman's about 30lbs heavier). And you could probably draft Tillman at #30.
 

JakeRae

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John Hollinger put out his mock draft on the Athletic. He seems to think the Celtics could be in good position to trade up in the draft because so many teams want to trade down. He thinks a move up to 9 in a swap for 14/26/30 with Washington makes sense if Okwangu is taken before 9. He also mentions a trade up to 11 with San Antonio for 14/26. His favorite draft day trade possibility involving the Celtics would be getting Larry Nance from Cleveland. He says if they trade up it would be to get Issac Okoro or Devin Vassell who he has going 11 and 12. If they stay at 14, he has them taking Saddiq Bey with Aleksej Pokusevski as a name to also watch as they could stash him in Greece for a year. At 26, he gives them Leando Bolmaro and at 30 Tyler Bey but he doesn't expect Boston to be picking at either 26 or 30.

14 for Nance is reasonable if you pretend the cap doesn’t exist. But the Celtics don’t have matching salaries. We’d need to send out Kanter, Poirer, Edwards, and Green to make this work. If Cleveland would take all our undesirable contracts and give us Nance for the 14 pick, I think I’d be pretty happy with that deal.
 

nighthob

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In light of Hollinger's remarks about Boston possibly targeting Okoro with a tradeup I'm starting a deep dive on the game tape. I watched a couple of Auburn games during the season and was impressed by his defense. He plays D sort of like a more aggressive/athletic Semi. He doesn't try for blocks, but focuses in staying in front of his guy. Disrupts the dribble with quick hands.

Now, looking at the highlights I will confess to liking the defense even more. Combined with the J-Crew and Marcus you'd have a wing rotation that gave opposing coaches ulcers. He's not the defensive housewrecker that Marcus is, but he has the size/speed/athleticism (6'6" 225 with a +3 wingspan) combo to switch 1-4. He a good open court player and makes some nifty passes in transition. Great defensive awareness and in transition. He has some creative layups that he breaks out when he gets downhill. He's also pretty good with his left hand in traffic. He finishes strong, which bodes well for his success at the next level.

The bad... You could write a 200 page doctoral dissertation on the horrors of his jumpshot. I mean everything is wrong with it. From the footwork, to the elevation, to the timing, to the actual motion, to the lack of a consistent release point, to using his guide hand for extra power (which becomes a necessity with his failure to jump into the shot). He makes Marcus look like Ray Allen.

He also has that same problem that Josh Green does, as great as his drive game looks when he gets downhill, it looks just as bad when the defense is ready for him. A lot of comically bad turnovers in halfcourt sets. I tried looking for workout tape of him and couldn't find any, which raises a red flag for me. He needed to completely rebuild that jumper of his, much like Hampton. And with the latter you can look at extensive tape of the rebuilt shot. Not with Okoro, though, which makes me wonder how he spent his time off (and who promised their draft slot to him).

Sooooo, while looking at game tape I can see why Danny likes him, but he's really raw. The guy he reminds me most of right now is Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, which is the problem, because that's his floor, a lottery pick that turns into a useful end of the rotation guy. As far as ceiling, I've seen a lot Kawhi v2.0 talk, but honestly I'd say his 1% projection is someone like Jimmy Butler. He's a much better playmaker than Leonard was at the same age and I don't think he has prime Kawhi "I'll smoke any SOB 1-5" defense in him. And I know that Ainge and Zarren regret not listening to me about Jimmy Butler. :D

(For those of you that don't know me, I'm irrational where Marquette players are concerned, so my hits there tend to be accidental because I think every Marquette star is going to have a productive NBA career. Don't let me down, Markus!)
 

BigSoxFan

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In light of Hollinger's remarks about Boston possibly targeting Okoro with a tradeup I'm starting a deep dive on the game tape. I watched a couple of Auburn games during the season and was impressed by his defense. He plays D sort of like a more aggressive/athletic Semi. He doesn't try for blocks, but focuses in staying in front of his guy. Disrupts the dribble with quick hands.

Now, looking at the highlights I will confess to liking the defense even more. Combined with the J-Crew and Marcus you'd have a wing rotation that gave opposing coaches ulcers. He's not the defensive housewrecker that Marcus is, but he has the size/speed/athleticism (6'6" 225 with a +3 wingspan) combo to switch 1-4. He a good open court player and makes some nifty passes in transition. Great defensive awareness and in transition. He has some creative layups that he breaks out when he gets downhill. He's also pretty good with his left hand in traffic. He finishes strong, which bodes well for his success at the next level.

The bad... You could write a 200 page doctoral dissertation on the horrors of his jumpshot. I mean everything is wrong with it. From the footwork, to the elevation, to the timing, to the actual motion, to the lack of a consistent release point, to using his guide hand for extra power (which becomes a necessity with his failure to jump into the shot). He makes Marcus look like Ray Allen.

He also has that same problem that Josh Green does, as great as his drive game looks when he gets downhill, it looks just as bad when the defense is ready for him. A lot of comically bad turnovers in halfcourt sets. I tried looking for workout tape of him and couldn't find any, which raises a red flag for me. He needed to completely rebuild that jumper of his, much like Hampton. And with the latter you can look at extensive tape of the rebuilt shot. Not with Okoro, though, which makes me wonder how he spent his time off (and who promised their draft slot to him).

Sooooo, while looking at game tape I can see why Danny likes him, but he's really raw. The guy he reminds me most of right now is Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, which is the problem, because that's his floor, a lottery pick that turns into a useful end of the rotation guy. As far as ceiling, I've seen a lot Kawhi v2.0 talk, but honestly I'd say his 1% projection is someone like Jimmy Butler. He's a much better playmaker than Leonard was at the same age and I don't think he has prime Kawhi "I'll smoke any SOB 1-5" defense in him. And I know that Ainge and Zarren regret not listening to me about Jimmy Butler. :D

(For those of you that don't know me, I'm irrational where Marquette players are concerned, so my hits there tend to be accidental because I think every Marquette star is going to have a productive NBA career. Don't let me down, Markus!)
I'm out! (Costanza voice)

I like Okoro and would love him if he somehow slipped to #14 but no way in hell am I giving up 3 cracks at the draft for a guy with a busted jump shot. There is too much overlap in what Langford and Okoro provide for me to support that. Okoro is obviously bigger and stronger but how would they co-exist? Would rather just stay at #14 and nab the best shooter we can and then take 2 upside/development/stash guys at 26/30.

Okongwu and Vassell are really the only guys that interest me that we could potentially have a shot at unless there's a weird slider like Toppin or something.
 

SteveF

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Jul 14, 2005
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The comp I've heard on Okoro -- ceiling wise -- is Andre Iguodala. That's if he can fix the jump shot.

I do like Okoro's ability to defend without selling out or fouling. He's going to make his guy take a lot of tough shots. He always stays in front of his guy and makes him shoot over him.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Jul 7, 2007
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I like Jalen Smith in a vacuum. The problem is that this draft is full of rotation bigs and I can't see much that Smith does that someone like Xavier Tillman can't. And Tillman does a few things better than Smith does with his limited mass (Tillman's about 30lbs heavier). And you could probably draft Tillman at #30.
Agree 100%.

For as weak as I think this draft is in high-end talent, I am very bullish on its depth. There's nine guys I'm pretty sure will be gone by #14 (Ball, Edwards, Deni, Okungwu, Okoro, Haliburton, Wiseman, Vassel and Williams), but after that, there's 11 guys I'd be happy with at 14, then after my top 20, there's a tier of about 22 guys I have of worthy of a late first. On the off chance we keep the picks, I basically think I'm nearly guaranteed to be excited about all of the first round guys, which is pretty unusual. Compared that to 2014, 2015, 2015 where things got ugly real quick and it was hard to get excited about anyone outside of the lottery. Part of that is the team's needs this time around, but it's also just that I think there's a lot of guys that will have decent NBA careers in this draft.

Back to your point on rotation bigs- I know you were on Precious as an option for 14 a while back, and I'm really starting to come around to that idea. I don't love the idea of using a mid first on a big, but he really flashes some stuff that, if he develops, would make him a high level starter. There's a lot of bad habits in his tape and there's a lot that needs fixing- his mechanics, shot selection, defensive positioning,offensive decision-making- but you don't find guys his size with fluid hips and really quick feet very often. He can defend the perimeter in a way that Jalen Smith (I know people focus on his poor frame, but his stiffness is just as concerning) just can’t. He'll earn his keep on D, but the handle gives him a nice tool on offense he can build on. There are some rumblings that he wants to be a star and views himself as an offensive primary rather than a role playing defensive whiz, I don't know if he processes the game quickly enough to get to Bam-level on defense, but the upside is there if he's coachable and hard-working.

I'm really curious on your thoughts on a couple of potential second round guys that I think have some upside- Karim Mane and Nate Hinton. Mane's a raw two-way combo guard, with a decent handle, a nice looking shot and plus length and athleticism. Started playing hoops late and played college ball in Canada, so serious questions about his competition, but did well for Canada in FIBA U19. He actually played at Vanier College, where I guy I play pickup with played 15 years ago, so he's been hyping him to me, but he does look like the type of kid you follow the Romeo plan with- focus him on lock-down D while he slowly builds up the rest of his game.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-rAyldp1so&ab_channel=HoopIntellect



Nate Hinton's more of a typical athletic 3&D, but with an awesome motor and competitiveness. He's an elite rebounder for a guard, and he's flashed some pull-up scoring. I don't know if he's a guaranteed contract guy, but there's tools to work with and a lot of toughness.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ztoH_8ZR0&ab_channel=HardwoodHoopsCentral%27sNBADraftGreenRoom


https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/8/25/21362355/nate-hinton-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report-houston-atlanta-hawks-defense-analysis
 

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
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It seems these trades usually get finalized just before the pick, meaning they are contingent on the guy they want being there.
Yeah, most of the time although a team like Minny may have multiple guys they’re interested in and could pull the trigger beforehand.
 

pjheff

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Jan 4, 2003
572
It's just my sense based on what it seems like Ainge looks for lately
Who is the Aingiest pick out there? I would think that Cole Anthony might tick a lot of boxes as a highly touted recruit who many thought would be a lottery pick but is sliding due to some fit issues in college.
 

the moops

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Jan 19, 2016
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Saint Paul, MN
NOP gives up Holiday, and Reddick and all they get back is a rental in Hayward and the 26th pick?

That is a terrible terrible deal for them. There is talk of them getting just the #6 for Holiday. Seems to me that just doing the trade straight up with ATL is a far better deal.

ATL would do this deal in a second. They get Holiday and the #14 for just # 6?