2020 MLB Hall of Fame News and Notes

[Philip Jeff Frye]

His OPS was a pedestrian .817.

You realize Jeter was a shortstop, right? That pedestrian OPS would place him 5th among the 23 shortstops currently in the Hall of Fame (not counting two Negro Leaguers). Well, he played in an era of high offense, you say? Okay, his career OPS+ of 115 would place him 9th among the Hall of Fame shortstops, ahead of, among others, Cal Riplen (113). The 115 OPS+ ties him with another apparent unworthy, Robin Yount.

Among this list of players, Jeter is 1st in runs (almost 200 ahead of Wagner in 2nd place), 1st in hits, 4th in doubles, 3rd in home runs, 2nd in total bases, 7th in RBIs, 8th in steals, 4th in walks, 6th in batting average, 8th in on base percentage, and 7th in slugging percentage.

Jeter never won an MVP? Only five of these guys ever did (Banks (twice), Boudrou, Larkin, Ripken (twice) and Rizzuto). Jeter had three top five finishes in the voting, topped only by Banks who had four and tied with Boudrou and Ripken. He had five top ten finishes, trailing only Reese (8!) and tied with Boudrou, Banks and Cronin.

I guess Honus Wagner would be a pretty lonely shortstop in your Hall of Fame.

 

[BaseballJones]

It’s completely insane to argue that Jeter either doesn’t deserve to be in the HOF or “barely” does. He’s a slam dunk, no doubter, first ballot HOFer, and deservedly so.

 

[InstaFace]

The alleged pro-NY bias isn't really a thing in HoF voting, unless I missed the induction ceremonies for Jorge Posada, Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams, David Wells, and David Cone. Or unless you are arguing that Rivera also wouldn't be deserving if he spent his career in Kansas City?

No, absolutely not, Rivera is the best reliever of all time and was deservedly unanimous.

 

[BoSox Rule]

His # of hits is completely irrelevant. He batted 1st or 2nd on a team that routinely had one of the best offenses if not the best. He led the league in PA's FIVE times and was 12th all-time. His OPS was a pedestrian .817.

Cant believe it needs to be explained that raw OPS as a RHH in old Yankee Stadium as a Shortstop doesn’t tell you everything.

 

[E5 Yaz]

BTW, this is one of the dumbest arguments that has ever been on SoSH.

I smell a P&G thread!

 

[McBride11]

Vets ballot: Miller, Whitaker, Dewey, Simmons and John.

Tommy John deserves it, even though his pitching is borderline good enough, the fact that he was willing to have an experimental major arm surgery to resurrect his career, it ended up being named after him, and has become so ubiquitous that it's more rare that players don't recover from it than do recover deserves HoF induction. And he was a damn good pitcher for a number of years too.

No love for Dr Frank Jobe, creator of the surgery? Plus he had the smarts to hire Neal ElAttrache who fixed God's left knee. I realize the HoF honored him in ?2012 but give the prevalence of this surgery he seems incredibly important to the game.
Much like why Miller should be in. Getting rid of the reserve clause completely changed baseball (and I still find it fascinating that Curt Flood really didn't benefit from jumping to be first in line).

Miller - clearly changed the game as it is currently played
Jeter - no doubt - 100% will be hard, only 1 person has had 100% (Rivera) and Jeter has at least some Defensive Qs, but no doubt 1st ballot

Bonds - the PEDs stuff seems overblown, guy was a stud in Pitt and had an extremely long career. PEDs don't affect hand-eye nor ability to read a strike zone which lasted until the very of his career
Clemens - his peak , before PEDs concerns is amazing (1997). He accrued 62 bWAR in his first 8 seasons (up to 1994) (total 140 career), whereas Koufax accumulated 53 bWWAR in his 12 year career.

I think Manny would be in if not for the PEDs shadow. His goofiness / airheadedness also holds him back, but he is one of the best RHH all time.

 

[McBride11]

No, absolutely not, Rivera is the best reliever of all time and was deservedly unanimous.

Good thing Bill Mueller didn't have a vote.. 99.9%

 

[Ale Xander]

Most Hall of Famers (non-pitcher division) bat at the top of the order for most of their careers. It probably has to do with them being pretty good, but I don't have enough data to come to a rock solid conclusion yet.

BTW, this is one of the dumbest arguments that has ever been on SoSH.

Actually most of them hit 3rd or 4th and get significantly fewer PA's but you knew that

 

[E5 Yaz]

Actually most of them hit 3rd or 4th and get significantly fewer PA's but you knew that

By "top of the order" he meant the first four spots in the order, but you knew that ... or you should have

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

You're arguing with a bo . . . nevermind

 

[Mueller's Twin Grannies]

I think everyone in this thread should be contributing to this thread now.

 

[jon abbey]

I was never an especially big Jeter fan, but some of his career counting stats are incredible, especially as an (admittedly shitty) shortstop. Hits is the one everyone knows, but he is 11th alltime in runs scored, a list filled with top tier Hall of Famers and basically no one else.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/R_career.shtml

 

[BoSox Rule]

Until you get to a shitty baseball player, can’t even type his name he is so bad, Cavan Biggio’s dad just four spots down

 

[Ale Xander]

I was never an especially big Jeter fan, but some of his career counting stats are incredible, especially as an (admittedly shitty) shortstop. Hits is the one everyone knows, but he is 11th alltime in runs scored; the top ten contains Cap Anson, 6 Top Tier 20th century Hall of Famers, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds and Pete Rose.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/R_career.shtml

FTFY
(point taken)

 

[Ale Xander]

Black Ink of the top 11 players in runs scored:

Rickey Henderson: 50
Ty Cobb: 154
Barry Bonds: 69
Hank Aaron: 76
Babe Ruth: 157
Pete Rose: 64
Willie Mays: 67
Alex Rodriguez: 68
Cap Anson: 60
Stan Musial: 116

Derek Jeter: 10

 

[coremiller]

How is any of that his fault? David Ortiz was never MVP, rarely played in the field, never won any Gold Gloves, is somewhere in the middle of the pack in all-time HR, nowhere near 3000 hits, and is still considered by most to be a certain Hall of Fame inductee at some point, even with the did he or didn't he cloud of steroids/PEDs hanging over his head. Not the same player, obviously, but he also played on a team with an offense that was usually at or near the top and he saw a lot more PAs as a result and spent a lot more time on the bases when pitchers walked him rather than give up a dinger. Is he not a Hall of Fame player because he played for the Red Sox or is he a Hall of Fame player because he put up HoF numbers?

Yes, Jeter saw a lot of action and, yes, part of that was a function of his team's offensive prowess but, and this is the key, HE PRODUCED AT THE PLATE WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY. That's what Hall of Fame players do: be better than a lot of others when put in the same situation. Call it the clutch gene if you want or whatever but Jeter was not a hitter to take lightly at any point in his career, regardless of the score. He was criminally overrated defensively, sure, but let's not forget the big 3 SS of that era were he, A-Rod, and Nomar, none of whom evoked thoughts of Ozzie Smith in the field but mashed at the plate. If you add in Miguel Tejada as the distant 4th on that late-90s, early-00s SS Mount Rushmore, he was still more of an offensive player than defensive. The position has evolved since then to favor defense a little more (or at least a balance of defense and offense), so his 5 Gold Gloves (only a couple of which may have been truly earned on play and not reputation/popularity) only matter so much. He doesn't get an asterisk next to his numbers because his team had the audacity of being competitive every single year that he played. If we start doing that for him, we need to do that for everyone.

A-Rod was an excellent defensive shortstop, which was why it was so ridiculous that he had to move to third base to accommodate Jeter. From 1996-2003, per BR's numbers, A-Rod was 21 runs above average on defense while Jeter was 96 runs below average. Jeter's ego cost his team something like 1.5 wins per year by forcing A-Road to play 3B.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

A-Rod was an excellent defensive shortstop, which was why it was so ridiculous that he had to move to third base to accommodate Jeter. From 1996-2003, per BR's numbers, A-Rod was 21 runs above average on defense while Jeter was 96 runs below average. Jeter's ego cost his team something like 1.5 wins per year by forcing A-Road to play 3B.

Which of course is why they never made the playoffs or won a World Series with that configuration.

 

[Ale Xander]

Good catch BSR. Looking at first ink. Thought ifit was zero, it would be posted!

Edited:

Black Ink of Jeter's contemporaries'
Vizquel : 0
Alex Rodriguez: 68
Nomar 15
Tejada 13
Michael Young 11

 

[BoSox Rule]

Vizquel has 0 black ink but GJGE. It’s also a completely outdated and essentially worthless metric since it doesn’t account for some of the most important things you could possibly look at like ballpark adjustment and positional adjustment.

 

[jon abbey]

What is Black Ink? I have never heard that term before this thread.

 

[jon abbey]

A-Rod was an excellent defensive shortstop, which was why it was so ridiculous that he had to move to third base to accommodate Jeter. From 1996-2003, per BR's numbers, A-Rod was 21 runs above average on defense while Jeter was 96 runs below average. Jeter's ego cost his team something like 1.5 wins per year by forcing A-Road to play 3B.

A-Rod wouldn’t have been as good there as he got older and bigger, and who knows how Jeter would have handled third. Agreed it probably hurt NY but not as much as your above math.

 

[BaseballJones]

Hall of Fame monitor of the top 11 players in runs scored (100 is average HOFer):

Henderson: 181
Cobb: 445
Bonds: 340
Aaron: 421
Ruth: 415 (batting only; add another 42 for pitching)
Rose: 311
Mays: 376
Rodriguez: 390
Anson: 186
Musial: 452
Jeter: 337

For what it's worth (probably nothing to AX), Derek Jeter is 11th ALL TIME among hitters, regardless of position, in the Hall of Fame Monitor number.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml
Jeter's HOF numbers:
Black Ink: 10 (avg HOFer is at 27)
Gray Ink: 145 (avg HOFer is at 144)
HOF Monitor: 337 (avg HOFer is at 100)
HOF Standards: 67 (avg HOFer is at 50)
WAR (for SS): 72.4 (avg HOF SS is at 67.0)

So yeah, keep harping on the point that Jeter didn't actually lead the league in various stats too often. The guy was obviously GREAT for a LONG TIME, performed huge in the postseason, and is a well-deserved lock first-ballot HOFer. This whole argument is so stupid.

Here's the Black Ink test on baseball-reference.com:

Black-Ink Test
All-Time and Active Leaders

Named so because league-leading numbers are traditionally represented with Boldfacetype. The definition for the test that is being used here was written in Bill James's The Politics of Glory, p. 65-67. The essential point is to measure how often a player led the league in a variety of "important" stats. This method penalizes more recent players, because they have 14-16 teams per league, while the older players had just 8. To get a point you must lead the league in that category.

• Batting Statistics
• Four Points for home runs, runs batted in or batting average
• Three Points for runs scored, hits or slugging percentage
• Two Points for doubles, walks or stolen bases
• One Point for games, at bats or triples
• Pitching Statistics
• Four Points for wins, earned run average or strikeouts
• Three Points for innings pitched, win-loss percentage or saves
• Two Points for complete games, lowest walks per 9 innings or lowest hits per 9 innings
• One Point for appearances, starts or shutouts

Note that Hall of Famers have a wide variety of values for the Black Ink Test, and the method is unforgiving of positional differences, but it is a neat little metric.

 

[BoSox Rule]

Black is a Bill James stat from like 200 years ago. It’s a weighted point system based on LEADING THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in certain stats.

 

[Ale Xander]

The guy, performed huge in the postseason,

Except in the 2004 ALCS where he posted
.200/.333/.233/.567


Good job, BaseballJones, you win the debate. #2 is very worthy of a HOF nod. Even with a Black Ink below Michael Young's.

 

[BaseballJones]

Except in the 2004 ALCS where he posted
.200/.333/.233/.567


Good job, BaseballJones, you win the debate. #2 is very worthy of a HOF nod. Even with a Black Ink below Michael Young's.

Yes he is. Easy first ballot HOFer, no doubter, not even close. Very easy choice, as you will soon find out.

 

[Ale Xander]

What is Black Ink? I have never heard that term before this thread.

I believe the term is based on baseball cards.

 

[coremiller]

A-Rod wouldn’t have been as good there as he got older and bigger, and who knows how Jeter would have handled third. Agreed it probably hurt NY but not as much as your above math.

Jeter probably would have been fine at third. His hands and arm were generally fine, his problem at short was his terrible lateral range, which would have been much less of a problem at 3B.

 

[SirPsychoSquints]

Jeter probably would have been fine at third. His hands and arm were generally fine, his problem at short was his terrible lateral range, which would have been much less of a problem at 3B.

I've seen speculation that a lot of the problem with his lateral range was his first step, which might become magnified at 3B.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Even with a Black Ink below Michael Young's.

Since Black Ink is so important to you, here are the stats for all the shortstops currently in the Hall:

Luke Appling - 9
Luis Aparicio - 19
Dave Bancroft - 1
Ernie Banks - 26
Lou Bourdou - 11
Joe Cronin - 7
George Davis 4
Travis Jackson - 0
Hughie Jennings - 0
Barry Larkin - 0
Rabbit Maranville - 2
Pee Wee Reese - 7
Cal Ripken - 19
Phil Rizzuto - 0
Joe Sewell - 3
Ozzie Smith - 2
Joe Tinker - 1
Alan Trammell - 0
Arky Vaughn - 29
Bobby Wallace - 1
John Ward - 8*
Honus Wagner - 105
Robin Yount - 14

*As a shortstop, also 22 as a pitcher!

Jackie Robinson's Black Ink number is 9. Does he belong in the Hall of Fame?

 

[Mueller's Twin Grannies]

I don't know which argument is sillier, the one about Jeter's candidacy or the discussion about Pedroia's contract.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Jeter probably would have been fine at third. His hands and arm were generally fine, his problem at short was his terrible lateral range, which would have been much less of a problem at 3B.

At 3rd he would have been making plays 7 rows deep in the stands instead of just one row

 

[E5 Yaz]

Since Black Ink is so important to you ...

Considering that they don't even know the definition of the term, this is debatable

 

[jon abbey]

I don't know which argument is sillier, the one about Jeter's candidacy or the discussion about Pedroia's contract.

I'm going with citing that idiotic Black Ink stat.

 

[InstaFace]

Jeter probably would have been fine at third. His hands and arm were generally fine, his problem at short was his terrible lateral range, which would have been much less of a problem at 3B.

But then we wouldn't have had Pasta Diving Jeter, which is a great SoSH term, and still-unused as a great SoSH handle.

 

[Plympton91]

Most Hall of Famers (non-pitcher division) bat at the top of the order for most of their careers. It probably has to do with them being pretty good, but I don't have enough data to come to a rock solid conclusion yet.

BTW, this is one of the dumbest arguments that has ever been on SoSH.

I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming it’s just a bad attempt at sarcasm.

 

[Plympton91]

You realize Jeter was a shortstop, right? That pedestrian OPS would place him 5th among the 23 shortstops currently in the Hall of Fame (not counting two Negro Leaguers). Well, he played in an era of high offense, you say? Okay, his career OPS+ of 115 would place him 9th among the Hall of Fame shortstops, ahead of, among others, Cal Riplen (113). The 115 OPS+ ties him with another apparent unworthy, Robin Yount.

Eh, what’s so great about Cal Ripken. He only produced those big numbers because played every game.

 

[Plympton91]

I believe the term is based on baseball cards.

It’s abosolutely insane that Wade Boggs was drafted in 1976 and didn’t make the majors until 1982 because the Red Sox werer run by blithering idiots.

 

[stepson_and_toe]

Eh, what’s so great about Cal Ripken. He only produced those big numbers because played every game.

While his consecutive game streak certainly played a large part in his election, the number of games he played has some bearing. He is one of only 8 players who appeared in 3000+ games, all but one of whom are in the Hall. There are only 59 players who appeared in 2500+ games and 39 of them are in the Hall. Of the 20 not in the Hall, Pete Rose and Barry Bonds seem to be no-nos and another 6 haven't been retired long enough (Jeter is now eligible). Like it or not, longevity does play a role.

 

[DJnVa]

His # of hits is completely irrelevant. He batted 1st or 2nd on a team that routinely had one of the best offenses if not the best. He led the league in PA's FIVE times and was 12th all-time. His OPS was a pedestrian .817.

Jeter is 12th all-time at SS in JAWS. He's 10th all-time in WAR. His top 7 seasons by WAR are 16th all-time for a SS. He won 5 Silver Sluggers.

And, in his greatest fucking feat ever, he's got a bunch of asshole Sox fans defending him.

 

[GrandSlamPozo]

I don't know which argument is sillier, the one about Jeter's candidacy or the discussion about Pedroia's contract.

Well Pedroia has 11 black ink to Jeter's 10, so we should definitely sign him for 10% more than Jeter makes as Marlins owner.

 

[Ale Xander]

Well Pedroia has 11 black ink to Jeter's 10, so we should definitely sign him for 10% more than Jeter makes as Marlins owner.

And there you have it.

 

[scottyno]

Jeter is a no doubt hall of famer, but it's still going to be a joke when he gets like 98% of the vote beating other recent hall of famers like Pedro.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

Jeter is a no doubt hall of famer, but it's still going to be a joke when he gets like 98% of the vote beating other recent hall of famers like Pedro.

Does he get to go in a different plaque room if he gets a larger percentage of the vote?

 

[InstaFace]

Jeter is 12th all-time at SS in JAWS. He's 10th all-time in WAR. His top 7 seasons by WAR are 16th all-time for a SS. He won 5 Silver Sluggers.

And, in his greatest fucking feat ever, he's got a bunch of asshole Sox fans defending him.

Counterpoint: Nomah's bettah.

At remaining disease-free.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

Some Dwight Evans stuff...

He compiled 10,569 plate appearances over 20 years and per Baseball reference his 162 game average was this:

BA: 272
R: 91
HR: 24
RBI 86
OPS: 840
OPS+: 127

He won 8 Gold Gloves playing in probably the toughest RF in MLB.

His overall postseason numbers are average, but in the world series he stepped up his game, putting up a 977 OPS over 59 plate appearances.

His WAR for baseball reference is 67; for fangraphs its 65.1. For comparisons sake, HOF RF Dave Winfield had 64.2 and 59.9 while compliing almost 2,000 more plate appearances.

I'd say if they are going to have this committee to let in players like Harold Baines, then Dewey absolutely HAS to be put in the HOF.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

I'd say if they are going to have this committee to let in players like Harold Baines, then Dewey absolutely HAS to be put in the HOF.

The problem with this is that there's probably about 100 other players you could say this about too.

 

[GrandSlamPozo]

Counterpoint: Nomah's bettah.

At remaining disease-free.

Counter-counterpoint: Jeter has an encyclopedic knowledge on the hopes and dreams of 20-something year old women.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

The problem with this is that there's probably about 100 other players you could say this about too.

OK but do you think there are 100 players not in the HOF who are more worthy than Evans?

 

[InstaFace]

Counter-counterpoint: Jeter has an encyclopedic knowledge on the hopes and dreams of 20-something year old women.

This presumes he listened to the answers. Objection: facts not in evidence.

 

[drbretto]

This Jeter debate is hilarious! The only question about Jeter's candidacy is whether or not he'll be the first one in unanimously. I get we're Sox fans and have been prone to highlighting all the ways he had been overrated, but most legends are based on bullshit. The dude is a legend and a generational icon. Thinking he's borderline is absurd.

Is the argument for Bonds, Manny, Clemens and Sheffield having that much more support over Sosa based on the prevailing opinion on when each started juicing and how much it affected their careers?

This is an interesting question. This is another situation where there's the truth and there's the public truth. Let's take Bonds abd Clemens out for a minute, they're a case of their own. Ostensibly, Manny and Sosa should be in the same boat. Both are all about the bat, both were caught multiple times, neither showed remorse.

But, Sosa bulked up out of the blue and started hitting like Babe Ruth in the height of the steroid era while Manny didn't get caught until the hububb was already mostly past us. We can still fool ourselves into thinking that Manny was clean for the Sox, then decided to try to extend his career. Sosa comes out looking like a direct product of cheating. Bonds and Clemens also both had HoF level careers as skinny guys before bulking up.

I'm assuming all 4 were on something illegal their entire careers, but it's all about perception.