2020 MLB Hall of Fame News and Notes

Danny_Darwin

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So as has been discussed, there are no likely Hall of Famers entering the ballot next year, which seems like good news for Schilling and Vizquel, but probably even better news for Rolen, Wagner, Sheffield, and Helton who all saw big gains this year and will probably get some additional looks on an even-less-crowded ballot.
 

jon abbey

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It's all personal opinion, but I always felt if I thought a guy was worthy he would get my vote regardless as to how many others may or may not vote for him.
Yep, that's the way it should be, but IMO these are special circumstances.
 

cromulence

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Aug 25, 2009
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Jeter is a deserving, first ballot Hall of Famer.

I’ve always been amazed that this wasn’t enough for Yankee fans.
Oh please, I'm not crying about Jeter not being unanimous. I just think refusing to vote for someone who's clearly deserving just out of some ridiculous cranky tradition is extremely stupid, and I thought we were done with it after last year.
 

cromulence

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I don't agree with you often, but this is my take. Clear HOFer, but not the GOAT.
I just think this line of thinking is silly, and it's the kind of shit that only baseball fans and media do. How good does someone have to be to be unanimous? The undisputed goat at their position? Why should that be? And how should this work - voters take turns leaving people off who absolutely deserve it but don't super duper deserve it?

I just think the whole thing is tiresome, and has been for a long time. Yes, many, many others should have been unanimous too, but instead of continuing to deny people in order to keep that tradition going, let's just stop doing this.
 

uncannymanny

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Oh please, I'm not crying about Jeter not being unanimous. I just think refusing to vote for someone who's clearly deserving just out of some ridiculous cranky tradition is extremely stupid, and I thought we were done with it after last year.
Done? Ask Shoeless Joe’s great grandkids about his eligibility status.
 

Average Reds

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Oh please, I'm not crying about Jeter not being unanimous. I just think refusing to vote for someone who's clearly deserving just out of some ridiculous cranky tradition is extremely stupid, and I thought we were done with it after last year.
You sure are worked up for someone who isn’t worked up.

As has been pointed out, there are any number of reasons for someone not to have put Jeter on his or her ballot.
 

Plympton91

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Good chance Schilling is only HOF in 2021.
Wow. Not only are there no HOFers entering the ballot, I’d expect only Hudson to get past the 5% threshold to stay on it.

I didn’t realize Papi played 2 years past Jeter. I thought it was only 1.


Geez. How MF great was David Ortiz.

Jeter is Mr.October? Rivera greatest postseason pitcher of all time?

Ortiz in the 3 World Series he won:
.455 / .576 / .795 = 1371 OPS.

First ballot. Or the whole thing is a farce.
 
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singaporesoxfan

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Wow. Not only are there no HOFers entering the ballot, I’d expect only Hudson to get past the 5% threshold to stay on it.

I didn’t realize Papi played 2 years past Jeter. I thought it was only 1.


Geez. How MF great was David Ortiz.

Jeter is Mr.October? Rivera greatest postseason pitcher of all time?

Ortiz in the 3 World Series he won:
.455 / .576 / .795 = 1371 OPS.

First ballot. Or the whole thing is a farce.
You know, Ortiz potentially being a unanimous HoF selection when Jeter wasn’t would be so delicious the thought of it just brought a huge smile to my face
 

InstaFace

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Wow. Not only are there no HOFers entering the ballot, I’d expect only Hudson to get past the 5% threshold to stay on it.
I think Buehrle might make a second ballot too - not much daylight between him and Pettitte other than the postseason opportunities his teammates won for him. But other than those two, yeah, slim pickings among the newcomers. It'll be the lightest ballot in a decade. I guess since 2013 when Biggio and Piazza missed on their first shot, and the Hall had to hastily convene a Veterans Committee to railroad a few people in so they could still have an Induction Weekend. Same happened in 1996.

You could vote for the top 10 returners from this year's ballot, and I wouldn't have too much argument with you. In my mind, Vizquel (4th) is the least deserving of that group, and Kent (10th) should be much closer to the front of the line... but any of those 10 would enhance the story that the Hall tells about their era, and could have their careers celebrated without anyone having to stretch for superlatives.
 

santadevil

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I've always been a Larry Walker fan, because he was the first Right Fielder I remember with my beloved Expos when I was young

I would call him my first 'favorite' player that I remember

This Baseball Bits video from January does a nice job breaking down why he should be in the HoF (his videos are a bit weird sometimes, but I've enjoyed them all due to the 90's graphics he uses). Video starts with a stats breakdown around 1:45 and ends around the 9:00 mark. Rest is a sponsor plug

View: https://youtu.be/dE87YOZRHEU
Quoting myself here, but just super happy that Larry was elected this year
Very nice player that represents this country very well

Also, great twitter handle: cdnmooselips33
 

Kliq

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A couple of years ago when Stanton was traded to New York we had a thread asking what John Sterling's call of Stanton home runs was going to be, and someone said "And it's in the seats thanks to Jetes!" and now anytime I see Jeter's name, that is all I think about.

I understand why he is still so low, but I'm sad to see Manny so far away from the ballot. I don't know if someone who tested positive for PEDs will ever get in, but Manny, steroids and all, is one of the most underrated hitters of all-time. With the exception of Bonds and A-Rod, his career numbers blow away those of his contemporaries and he was just such a complete hitter. He is ninth all-time in career OPS, and on that list, only two players (Bonds and Trout) played after 1960. He is easily one of the most naturally talented hitters of the last 50 years.

Sheffield is ahead of him in the voting, which doesn't feel right. Sheffield never tested positive, but the links to him and steroid use are fairly strong, and if you can acknowledge that both guys are not in the HoF because of steroid use; Manny was clearly a superior player and IDK if he will ever get in but I would vote for him in a heartbeat.
 

WalletTrack

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<Tomorrowland>
Please respect the embedded SoSHer-the last syllable of the Anus Face Haiku-delivered justice.
In but ..ahh..but an asterisk. It just adds to his ...sigh..legend.
 

coremiller

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You know, Ortiz potentially being a unanimous HoF selection when Jeter wasn’t would be so delicious the thought of it just brought a huge smile to my face
Between the DH thing and the 2003 PED test, I'd be surprised if Ortiz gets in at all on the first ballot, let alone unanimously.
 

SirPsychoSquints

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Wow. Not only are there no HOFers entering the ballot, I’d expect only Hudson to get past the 5% threshold to stay on it.

I didn’t realize Papi played 2 years past Jeter. I thought it was only 1.


Geez. How MF great was David Ortiz.

Jeter is Mr.October? Rivera greatest postseason pitcher of all time?

Ortiz in the 3 World Series he won:
.455 / .576 / .795 = 1371 OPS.

First ballot. Or the whole thing is a farce.
Ortiz batted .342/.375/.500 vs. Rivera in his career (40 PA), including .333/.333/.500 in the postseason (6 PA).
 

Plympton91

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Between the DH thing and the 2003 PED test, I'd be surprised if Ortiz gets in at all on the first ballot, let alone unanimously.
Harold Baines is in; he literally could not play in the field for 2/3rds of his career. Edgar Martinez is in; he also broke down every time he played the field.

Ortiz is superior to both.
 

coremiller

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Harold Baines is in; he literally could not play in the field for 2/3rds of his career. Edgar Martinez is in; he also broke down every time he played the field.

Ortiz is superior to both.
Baines wasn't elected by the writers; Martinez needed 10 years to get in. Ortiz is certainly better than Baines but pretty clearly not better than Martinez, although his post-season success/career in a big eastern market/iconic cultural status make him seem more hall of famey than Martinez. I think Ortiz will eventually get in, I'd just be surprised if it's in the first year.
 

Danny_Darwin

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Do we know who’s going to be on the Modern Era committee? Schilling may not be going in alone.
The eras being considered for 2021 induction are “Early Baseball” and “Golden Years,” so it is entirely possible that those committees will not select anyone living.
 

SirPsychoSquints

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So...it's clear to you that Ortiz wasn't better than Edgar? That's not clear to me at all.
It's the naive reading, you have to enter playoff heroics and intangibles to catch David up.


In 1400 fewer PAs, Edgar accumulated 13 more WAR and 18 more WAA. Comparable OPS's but Edgar's is OBP heavier, and played in a harder stadium, resulting in a higher OPS+ 147 to 141. Edgar spent 564 games at 3B where he was considered above average at the tougher position, as opposed to Ortiz's 278 games at 1B where he was considered below average at the easier position.

Ortiz has better clutch stats, including both regular season and postseason. Ortiz has more than twice as many postseason PAs, and hit better (in every respect) than Edgar in the postseason.
 

lexrageorge

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IMO, Martinez getting in, even if it took him 10 years, helps Papi's cause tremendously. It helped break the anti-DH bias among voters, and some of those voters have since retired. Plus he'll have support of the Boston writers; even Shank will likely vote for him.

One reason to vote for Schilling to get in next year is that it removes a bit of a logjam of near miss folks. Same with Bonds and Clemens, but that seems less likely.

Also helping Ortiz' candidacy is the fact that of the next 3 classes, the only other no-doubt candidates are A-Rod and possibly Beltran, and both of them come with their own baggage.

It's conceivable that Ortiz could end up with 70% of the vote first time around. Some cranks will hold the leaked drug test against him. It would, however, be an absolute travesty if he didn't at least secure that much support.
 

BobVealeFan

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Jul 15, 2005
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Well I wouldn't have left Jeter off the ballot, but I think the HOF committee has been a very tough crowd in the past. The link is to the 1949 ballot, in which the likes of Mel Ott (105WAR) , Jimmy Foxx (95WAR), Charlie Gehringer (80WAR), Al Simmons, Hank Greenberg didn't even get in.

Willie Mays (156WAR) was first ballot but apparently not everybody deemed him worthy as indicated by 94.7% vote total.
 

bosockboy

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IMO, Martinez getting in, even if it took him 10 years, helps Papi's cause tremendously. It helped break the anti-DH bias among voters, and some of those voters have since retired. Plus he'll have support of the Boston writers; even Shank will likely vote for him.

One reason to vote for Schilling to get in next year is that it removes a bit of a logjam of near miss folks. Same with Bonds and Clemens, but that seems less likely.

Also helping Ortiz' candidacy is the fact that of the next 3 classes, the only other no-doubt candidates are A-Rod and possibly Beltran, and both of them come with their own baggage.

It's conceivable that Ortiz could end up with 70% of the vote first time around. Some cranks will hold the leaked drug test against him. It would, however, be an absolute travesty if he didn't at least secure that much support.
A-Rod definitely isn’t no doubt. He will get the Bonds treatment.
 

InstaFace

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It's the naive reading, you have to enter playoff heroics and intangibles to catch David up.

In 1400 fewer PAs, Edgar accumulated 13 more WAR and 18 more WAA. Comparable OPS's but Edgar's is OBP heavier, and played in a harder stadium, resulting in a higher OPS+ 147 to 141. Edgar spent 564 games at 3B where he was considered above average at the tougher position, as opposed to Ortiz's 278 games at 1B where he was considered below average at the easier position.

Ortiz has better clutch stats, including both regular season and postseason. Ortiz has more than twice as many postseason PAs, and hit better (in every respect) than Edgar in the postseason.
But does Edgar have a f&^%$ing city?

As for Larry Walker, that link to his twitter was great, look at the humility pre-announcement... when's the last time you saw this from an American athlete?

View: https://twitter.com/Cdnmooselips33/status/1219691612047052800


He hasn't even tweeted since the results were announced, I assume he's passed out on Crown Royal somewhere.
 

Captaincoop

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I'm still not buying that Martinez was better than Ortiz, even just looking at the regular season.

Over his regular season career, Ortiz walked and singled a bit less frequently, and hit half again as many home runs despite playing a good chunk of his career in an era when home runs were down (Martinez coincided pretty perfectly with the home run explosion in MLB).

Ok. So Edgar played the equivalent of three seasons (out of his 18-year career) at 3B and I'll take your word that he was above average...that's not why he's a HOF candidate.

Given the choice of these two guys to be your DH in their prime - you're taking Edgar?
 

Average Reds

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Harold Baines is in; he literally could not play in the field for 2/3rds of his career. Edgar Martinez is in; he also broke down every time he played the field.

Ortiz is superior to both.
I don't think anyone here is going to disagree with you that Ortiz belongs. However, we don't have votes.

I think (hope?) Ortiz will eventually get in, but it's going to take time and it won't be overwhelming.
 

SirPsychoSquints

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I'm still not buying that Martinez was better than Ortiz, even just looking at the regular season.

Over his regular season career, Ortiz walked and singled a bit less frequently, and hit half again as many home runs despite playing a good chunk of his career in an era when home runs were down (Martinez coincided pretty perfectly with the home run explosion in MLB).

Ok. So Edgar played the equivalent of three seasons (out of his 18-year career) at 3B and I'll take your word that he was above average...that's not why he's a HOF candidate.

Given the choice of these two guys to be your DH in their prime - you're taking Edgar?
One game in their prime isn’t really how we determine hall of fame worthiness - I’m not in front of my computer for the next little while, I’ll see later what it looks like. Given that they had similar hitting stats and Ortiz took longer to ramp up, he probably had a higher peak.
 

Captaincoop

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One game in their prime isn’t really how we determine hall of fame worthiness - I’m not in front of my computer for the next little while, I’ll see later what it looks like. Given that they had similar hitting stats and Ortiz took longer to ramp up, he probably had a higher peak.
"We" determine it however "we" want to.

So far the only case I've seen for Martinez being better involves a small edge in advanced stats that try to take park effect into account.

The eye test and the standard stats favor one guy pretty clearly, and the advanced metrics are close...I'm going with Ortiz. And Martinez is certainly not "clearly" better by any standard - which was the claim upthread.

They're both great players, so no knock on Edgar. But throw the postseason heroics on top of all of the above and this is not even a close comparison.
 

cromulence

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You sure are worked up for someone who isn’t worked up.

As has been pointed out, there are any number of reasons for someone not to have put Jeter on his or her ballot.
You sure are flirting with trolling for someone who shouldn't be. I'm done.
 

Kliq

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Ortiz also has the benefit of being an iconic player. Right or wrong, being a big star for a signature team goes a long way in Hall of Fame voting; people seemed to talk about Jeter as a unanimous HoF player more than Roberto Alomar.
 

Average Reds

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You sure are flirting with trolling for someone who shouldn't be. I'm done.
I am doing no such thing. In actual fact, I'm trying to be polite about the fact that you seem bothered by something that no baseball fan should be upset over. But, since you want to imply that I'm a troll, that politeness ends here.

We've had this debate all over the board many, many times. It absolutely grinds my gears that the fact that Jeter is one of the all-time greats is not good enough for (many, not all) Yankee fans. And that extends even to his HOF vote, where several on this board have implied (while feigning disinterest) that there are no good reasons to leave Jeter off the ballot, when we know that's not true.

We've seen circumstances many times before where voters leave a no-doubt HOF player off a ballot because they reason that the vote isn't needed, so they give it to a player they are trying to help get over 75% - or even to stay eligible. That (to me) is a perfectly legitimate vote. There are also voters who try to make a point out of picking (or leaving off) certain players. Depending on their reason, that may or may not be perfectly legitimate.

I suspect that the voter who left Jeter off was doing so because he/she wanted to ensure that he wasn't unanimous. Depending on the the rationalization, I'll agree that the voter in question is probably a tool. (Or, they may not be. As JA points out above, it's a defensible position.)

Having said that, I'll tell you what is annoying about the vote - people acting as if Jeter was entitled to a unanimous vote. Perhaps if he were the unquestioned best position player ever, I'd agree with that. However, he's not close, by any metric you can come up with. And I never heard any gnashing of teeth when far superior players didn't get a unanimouis vote in the past. We all just accepted it and moved on with our lives.

I'll say again - I have no idea why Jeter's acknowledged greatness is not enough. But if you think you're going to get sympathy for acting like a tough guy and making a passive-aggressive accusation of trolling, you are sadly mistaken.
 
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reggiecleveland

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This is crass, I know, but I wonder if getting shot negates the Mitchell report info on Ortiz. I also expect, since he has been aggressive in the past, Ortiz will come out publicly saying he was clean, when the time to vote comes. There is chance he makes it worse especially if details come out that we haven't heard before. I am still not sold he will get in at all. There will be steroid absolutists than won't vote for him. There will be stat guys saying (like above) Edgar was better, there will be backlash like the Jeter vote, that he was overrated playing in a high profile team, there will be maybe a voter or two that unconsciously doesn't like Latin American players. I think he will get in, but it will be close.
 

Rough Carrigan

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Wow. Not only are there no HOFers entering the ballot, I’d expect only Hudson to get past the 5% threshold to stay on it.

I didn’t realize Papi played 2 years past Jeter. I thought it was only 1.


Geez. How MF great was David Ortiz.

Jeter is Mr.October? Rivera greatest postseason pitcher of all time?

Ortiz in the 3 World Series he won:
.455 / .576 / .795 = 1371 OPS.

First ballot. Or the whole thing is a farce.
In the 2013 series, Adam Wainwright, of the Cardinals, who came in 2nd in the NL Cy Young voting that year, was reduced to the desperation of trying to sort of quick pitch him because Ortiz was crushing everything
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Jayson Stark’s column in the Athletic names Ortiz as a potential first ballot inductee, though by no means certain:
The next four elections are likely to produce no more than two first-ballot Hall of Famers (Ortíz and Beltré) — and possibly even fewer.
Doesn’t necessarily mean much, but interesting that his piece seems to talk about how Papi will get elected, not if.

I do the best thing Ortiz has going for him in his post player days is becoming a part of the baseball media. Like A-Rod, I think that’ll help his stature with the voting members a bit.
 
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