2019 UFC/MMA

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EvilEmpire

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Not sure MMA pays well enough for many high level boxers to try, but on the women's side you have former boxers like Holly Holm in the UFC and I think a few in Bellator. Would Holm qualify as a high level boxer, or does women's boxing suffer from some of the same challenges as MMA as far as being less developed/refined/mature?

She's had some success.
 

Marciano490

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Not sure MMA pays well enough for many high level boxers to try, but on the women's side you have former boxers like Holly Holm in the UFC and I think a few in Bellator. Would Holm qualify as a high level boxer, or does women's boxing suffer from some of the same challenges as MMA as far as being less developed/refined/mature?

She's had some success.
You read my mind. I was just thinking, and I believe I said this before, most of the best punchers in the UFC are women. Holm is legit, Rose is legit, as is Cyborg. Nunes is a bit sloppy but has the power and chin to overcome it.

I thought JJ was an amazing puncher too, but she’s developed this weird feinting style that’s really ineffective. That could’ve just been Rose getting in her head.
 

luckiestman

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Machida was an elite striker first, and his sense of stance and range stymied a lot of his opponents’ offense. Silva was striking dominant too, to a lesser extent.

Both are Brazilian and had probably more access to interdisciplinary fighting at a younger age than most Americans of that generation.

Machida trained BJJ since he was 15 and has a Sumo background (which used to and still does amuse me).

His dad is a karate guy so that is his first art but he was a balanced fighter.
 
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djbayko

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I realize my comments kind of come off like “lol these guys suck”. I don’t mean that at all. I get it’s impossible to be a master of all trades. I trained boxing 3-4 hours a day, and the human body just isn’t capable of doing that for 3-4 disciplines every day without breaking down.

I guess I look at it more like Moneyball stuff. If the majority of these fighters are mid level strikers, it seems Iike there’d be an opening for a high level guy or woman to come in and just wreck shit so long as their take down defense and grappling was adequate.
That's the trick though, isn't it? Even to just get adequate would take, what, a couple years of intense training? Meanwhile, someone coming from a boxing background probably fucking loves boxing and would have a hard time sacrificing the time away from sparring necessary to develop those skills. Also, you can't exactly have the same stance when striking in MMA because you have so many more things (kicks/takedowns) to worry about. So your whole boxing mindset kind of needs to change. How much does that negate your superiority in that area? I don't know.

Holm has a kickboxing background as well. She wasn't a pure boxer. So she had a leg up in that sense.
 

luckiestman

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I guess I look at it more like Moneyball stuff. If the majority of these fighters are mid level strikers, it seems Iike there’d be an opening for a high level guy or woman to come in and just wreck shit so long as their take down defense and grappling was adequate.
It really comes down to what you mean by adequate. Kermit Cintrón could have done well in MMA because he was a very good HS wrestler.

Maurice Smith learning how to play guard enough to survive is the best example of an elite kick boxer doing well in MMA.
 

Marciano490

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That's the trick though, isn't it? Even to just get adequate would take, what, a couple years of intense training? Meanwhile, someone coming from a boxing background probably fucking loves boxing and would have a hard time sacrificing the time away from sparring necessary to develop those skills. Also, you can't exactly have the same stance when striking in MMA because you have so many more things (kicks/takedowns) to worry about. So your whole boxing mindset kind of needs to change. How much does that negate your superiority in that area? I don't know.

Holm has a kickboxing background as well. She wasn't a pure boxer. So she had a leg up in that sense.
Right, but why can a college wrestler learn to strike at 22, but a GG boxer or top amateur can’t pick up kicking and grappling?

Machida is a good comp. As for Silva, I don’t know how to phrase this, he might’ve just had the best reflexes and been the best athlete ever. I don’t know that he was a super duper polished striker, but that’s kinda like saying Griffey wasn’t an amazing fielder cuz he’d basket catch stuff.
 

Marciano490

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I wonder about leverages too. Like Daniel Cormier has a shit build for a striker, but is a fucking rock on the ground. Are tall, stringy guys like Hearns - who are built really well for striking - disadvantaged on the ground by being so thin and long?

Though Jon Jones has that build and is obviously good anywhere.

To expand, in boxing, all the heavyweight contenders for the past few years have been like 6’5 and up, excluding Luis Ortiz I suppose, while the UFC heavyweights seem to top out at around 6’2 or 3. I remember Tim Sylva was super tall and I think one or two of the Brazilian heavies (Dos Santos?) was as well, but Cormier, Stipe, Fedor, Brock, Cain, etc are much shorter than their boxing counterparts.
 
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luckiestman

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Right, but why can a college wrestler learn to strike at 22, but a GG boxer or top amateur can’t pick up kicking and grappling?

Machida is a good comp. As for Silva, I don’t know how to phrase this, he might’ve just had the best reflexes and been the best athlete ever. I don’t know that he was a super duper polished striker, but that’s kinda like saying Griffey wasn’t an amazing fielder cuz he’d basket catch stuff.

GSP is probably the best example but he was not an elite striker. But he was a straight Karate guy even more so than Machida.

Edit: didn’t start wrestling until age 20
 

luckiestman

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I wonder about leverages too. Like Daniel Cormier has a shit build for a striker, but is a fucking rock on the ground. Are tall, stringy guys like Hearns - who are built really well for striking - disadvantaged in the ground by being so thin and long?

Though Jon Jones has that build and is obviously good anywhere.

Height is still an advantage in my opinion but not as much of an advantage as it is in boxing.

Edit: Cormier is a freak of nature even in the wrestling world. Sort of a one off and not anyone to use to build a representative model
 

Marciano490

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Height is still an advantage in my opinion but not as much of an advantage as it is in boxing.

Edit: Cormier is a freak of nature even in the wrestling world. Sort of a one off and not anyone to use to build a representative model
Right but from my football days I remember it’s a lot easier to talking to 6’3 185 pounder than the 5’9 185. Is it equally easier in general to deal with the tall skinny dude on the ground?
 

Marciano490

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Of course, there are probably tens of thousands more high level wrestlers to draw from because it’s a high school and college sport and boxing isn’t.

Also, most boxers in higher weight classes don’t start until they flame out in normal sports after high school or college, whereas good, big kids can wrestle and play other sports as kids.
 

Myt1

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Machida trained BJJ since he was 15 and has a Sumo background (which used to and still does amuse me).

His dad is a karate guy so that is his first art but he was a balanced fighter.
Yeah, I was trying to address that with the Brazilian thing while chuckling about the sumo thing myself.
 

Myt1

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Right, but why can a college wrestler learn to strike at 22, but a GG boxer or top amateur can’t pick up kicking and grappling?

Machida is a good comp. As for Silva, I don’t know how to phrase this, he might’ve just had the best reflexes and been the best athlete ever. I don’t know that he was a super duper polished striker, but that’s kinda like saying Griffey wasn’t an amazing fielder cuz he’d basket catch stuff.
Once Segal taught him that front kick, it really was curtains.

He was insane. Watching him in his prime was like that vintage Randy Moss season. Or Neo dodging bullets.
 
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Marciano490

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Damn Khabib is beating Conor worse on twitter than in real life. This shit is getting nasty.
 

EvilEmpire

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The twitter beatdown is bad, but I think there is a real chance that Conor ends up with two rounds in the back of the head.
 

EvilEmpire

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From the Irish mob, a Muslim, a jilted coke dealer or his wife?
Most likely a pissed off Dagestani, but none of the above would surprise me. I think to him, doing and saying outrageous shit is all a game. Part and parcel of promoting his brand and making money. But insulting Islam? Calling a Muslim woman a towel? That isn't a game. Especially to people from Khabib's part of the world.

Maybe I've read too many longform pieces on Bloody Elbow, but religious, clannish, mountain folk with a tolerance for violence and where blood feuds aren't uncommon seems like a poor group to engage with this shit.
 

Marciano490

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Most likely a pissed off Dagestani, but none of the above would surprise me. I think to him, doing and saying outrageous shit is all a game. Part and parcel of promoting his brand and making money. But insulting Islam? Calling a Muslim woman a towel? That isn't a game. Especially to people from Khabib's part of the world.

Maybe I've read too many longform pieces on Bloody Elbow, but religious, clannish, mountain folk with a tolerance for violence and where blood feuds aren't uncommon seems like a poor group to engage with this shit.
I’ve never met a Dagesani, but the Chechens I’ve met are serious folks, like you say.

I have no idea how McGregor gets off still trolling people. Khabib toyed with him. Mayweather toyed with him. Nobody else in the world could get their ass kicked like that and still talk shit on the guys who did it.

And, yeah, I get that Mayweather is a boxer, but he’s also 40 and way smaller than Conor and he punked him.
 

djbayko

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His bravado got him to the point where he was able to earn over $100M in a cross-sport exhibition loss. I don't see why anyone would expect him to change his stripes now.
 

Marciano490

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His bravado got him to the point where he was able to earn over $100M in a cross-sport exhibition loss. I don't see why anyone would expect him to change his stripes now.
At that point he’d avenged his only real loss, and that was to a much bigger guy, albeit one less skilled and not really in shape and one who probably won the rematch too. It’s hard to keep that swagger when you’re getting your ass kicked.
 

djbayko

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No one really expected him to win the Mayweather fight, right? I'll grant you Khabib. He kind of needs to avenge that one for his legacy, but I don't know if he can/should.
 

Marciano490

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No one really expected him to win the Mayweather fight, right? I'll grant you Khabib. He kind of needs to avenge that one for his legacy, but I don't know if he can/should.
Mayweather isn’t a knockout dude. I thought it’d go 12. He was embarrassed. Khabib crushed him. He calls out guys then ducks. It’s awkward.
 

djbayko

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You really have a thing for Conor :)

Regardless of how you feel about his career, he's not going to stop doing what got him her, because once he does, he's no longer the biggest draw in the UFC.
 

Marciano490

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You really have a thing for Conor :)

Regardless of how you feel about his career, he's not going to stop doing what got him her, because once he does, he's no longer the biggest draw in the UFC.
He’s racist and now an accused rapist, so yeah, not my biggest idol. I always thought he was overrated and picked his opponents carefully. Especially in a sport where a lot of men and women fight anyone, he comes off soft and disrespectful of other people’s skill. He talks like Ali, but he fights like Ernie Shavers. Kudos on the bankroll though, he’s got a great watch collection.
 

JimBoSox9

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McGregor combines epic lack of self-awareness with total conviction that he's ascended to a higher state of being than us mortals. It's an impossible combination to stomach from anyone who isn't putting together a generational-level run of results, and hasn't trended that way in years.

Edit: lol, I almost invoked Ali right there myself, but I'm glad I left drawing that parallel to the professionals. A lot of showmanship--savvy athletes are trying to emulate Ali's ability to sell a fight, but more than most McGregor deeply believes that the profoundness of his worldview is as significant as Ali's was, while the reality is something close to the direct opposite of profound.
 
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Marciano490

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A bartender gave me a shot of Proper 12 on St. Patrick’s Day for free. Apparently it was crap Bushmills was just going to throw away, but McGregor bought it and rebranded it. Tasted awful, so there’s that too.
 

Marciano490

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They replayed the Poirier-Gaethje fight last night. Damn that was a good’un.
 

Zomp

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Very excited for this weekend's card but I just learned that the ONLY way to order the PPV is through ESPN+ which you pay $5.99 a month for.

Honestly, I love ESPN+ and think for the money its the best streaming service out there, but does anyone else think its insane that a fighting organization is LIMITING the way people can order their shows?! How does that make any sense?
 

Bozo Texino

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A bartender gave me a shot of Proper 12 on St. Patrick’s Day for free. Apparently it was crap Bushmills was just going to throw away, but McGregor bought it and rebranded it. Tasted awful, so there’s that too.
Ah, I didn’t know he owned it. I wondered what sort of company would choose a pitchman with as much baggage as he has.
 

Marciano490

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Ah, I didn’t know he owned it. I wondered what sort of company would choose a pitchman with as much baggage as he has.
Don’t quote me on the owns part; I’m not sure how much is his or his exact role, but he’s not just a pitchman.
 

mikeford

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Very excited for this weekend's card but I just learned that the ONLY way to order the PPV is through ESPN+ which you pay $5.99 a month for.

Honestly, I love ESPN+ and think for the money its the best streaming service out there, but does anyone else think its insane that a fighting organization is LIMITING the way people can order their shows?! How does that make any sense?
Because ESPN gave them a dump truck full of money to do it.

It makes sense if you only care about short term returns. And clearly the current ownership company is only focused on that, either because they're trying to pay off the debt they took on in the purchase or because they plan to either flip UFC or take it public.

You would not do this if your focus was turning new people into fans of your sport. But that ain't the game they're playing right now.
 

Marciano490

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Dillashaw suspended 2 years for EPO usage. I believe EPO can only be injected, so so much for the tainted product excuse.

I’ve heard of it mainly being used by cyclists for endurance. It’s kind of funny he took an endurance boosting drug before a fight in which he lasted about 20 seconds.
 

mikeford

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I read (on Twitter so take it for what that's worth) they they also tested an older sample from a previous fight and it popped for EPO as well. I guess USADA has developed a newer, better test method for detecting EPO.

My guess is TJ has been dirty his whole career.
 

Marciano490

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I read (on Twitter so take it for what that's worth) they they also tested an older sample from a previous fight and it popped for EPO as well. I guess USADA has developed a newer, better test method for detecting EPO.

My guess is TJ has been dirty his whole career.
Hi Cody!
 

Vinho Tinto

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You would not do this if your focus was turning new people into fans of your sport
Continuing to have customers pay a cable or satellite provider is a commitment to new fans; but paying an OTT is not? That helps explain boxing’s mainstream popularity explosion during my life.

Zomp: Piracy is a big issue for UFC (As is not having Rousey/McGregor) and there is a ton of new money being thrown by Disney to build ESPN +.

They offered them good money upfront, a lower take on PPV sales, and increased exposure across their programming. $80 for a year of + and UFC 236 is a good deal.
 
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Vinho Tinto

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kelpapa

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I read (on Twitter so take it for what that's worth) they they also tested an older sample from a previous fight and it popped for EPO as well. I guess USADA has developed a newer, better test method for detecting EPO.

My guess is TJ has been dirty his whole career.
I can't find where I read it, but USADA doesn't typically test for EPO. The half life is short, and the test was expensive.The older sample was never tested for it, but after this got flagged, they went back and tested the old sample.

ETA: Here is one tweet I saw:
@bokamotoESPN
Another note in Dillashaw's EPO case, USADA went back and re-analyzed a test submitted on Dec. 28, and that also come back positive for EPO. The reason it went undetected initially, is that a special test is required to reveal EPO, and that test is not run on every single sample.
 

luckiestman

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stylebender/gastelum going off now. im going for gastelum. so bet the house on stylebender?
 

luckiestman

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should have probably been stopped

I have a draw: 3-2 Gastelum with a 10-8 for stylebender in the 5th

Depends how you scored round 3

Edit: looks like all 3 judges gave 3 to stylebender. I didnt see that. Have to watch again
 

Marciano490

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Poirier comes in looking straight down. Holloway could score with a knee or uppercut.
 

Marciano490

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No clue why Poirier switched. He had the right hand cocked and landing all round 1.
 

luckiestman

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No clue why Poirier switched. He had the right hand cocked and landing all round 1.

He might have wanted to try more takedowns. I hardly box, but I stand conventional when I fuck around with striking, when I wrestle it is dominant hand forward.
 
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