2019 Pats: OL Discussion

j44thor

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Or maybe just some videos of prime Jim Brown or prime Barry Sanders, because those are the only two guys besting 4ypc with this OL. Downvoting Sony here is bizarre. Burkhead has 4.1ypc running mostly on passing downs.
Football outsiders have CLE rated slightly behind NE in OL run blocking. I've seen other sites with similar rankings. Both are bad but Chubb is still getting his. On top of that Michel is 47th out of 49 in PFF elusive rating in 19, Oline has been bad but Sony isn't getting a yard more than is blocked. Sometimes you need an RB to make someone miss.
 

RetractableRoof

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Football outsiders have CLE rated slightly behind NE in OL run blocking. I've seen other sites with similar rankings. Both are bad but Chubb is still getting his. On top of that Michel is 47th out of 49 in PFF elusive rating in 19, Oline has been bad but Sony isn't getting a yard more than is blocked. Sometimes you need an RB to make someone miss.
But they didn't draft him to be D. Lewis. They had him, and let him go to chase a paycheck.

In my opinion, they drafted him to protect the ball, get the yards that were blocked, break an occasional one, and pass block. And grow into a receiving option. I'm not saying they wouldn't like more, but they are getting what they wanted when they drafted him.
 

Jimbodandy

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Elusiveness rating is awesome. Being elusive is awesome. Massive wide receivers with huge catch radii are awesome.

None of that shit is necessary if Brady has time to throw and the line opens holes. I honestly don't care if Sony sucks at turning -1 yard runs into +1 yard runs, and I doubt that Belichick does either.
 

lexrageorge

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The thing with Wynn is that he was highly touted lineman coming out of college. Initial reports his rookie training camp were positive, but he popped his Achilles early on. He was brought along very slowly this summer in camp. In the Pittsburgh game, I recall the TV announcers saying towards the 4th quarter is that they hadn't mentioned his name, and that was a good thing for an OL. He was doing well against the Dolphins but got hurt near half time.

I'm guessing the extra time off allowed him to heal completely. And while it's unrealistic to expect him to solve all of the offense's problems by himself, he's probably still a huge upgrade over Newhouse at the line's most critical position. His injuries were both fluky, and the Achilles one in particular is one that can take a while to heal fully. Neither is the type of injury that indicates he will be "injury prone" in the future, although a re-rupture of the Achilles will be a small but non-zero risk going forward.
 

tims4wins

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I guess we are going to find out what the true upgrade is from a guy signed as a street free agent in-season to a 1st round pick at LT. I'm optimistic.
 

Harry Hooper

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I guess we are going to find out what the true upgrade is from a guy signed as a street free agent in-season to a 1st round pick at LT. I'm optimistic.
As a twist, Newhouse might be starting at RT on Sunday.
 

Red Averages

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Sign of a good game by the O-line? No bump to this thread from Friday. Seemed like there were more holes for running and Wynn looked like a huge improvement on Newhouse in his first game back.

Did anyone that follows this stuff in more detail have noteworthy takeaways from the game?
 

RedOctober3829

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Sign of a good game by the O-line? No bump to this thread from Friday. Seemed like there were more holes for running and Wynn looked like a huge improvement on Newhouse in his first game back.

Did anyone that follows this stuff in more detail have noteworthy takeaways from the game?
I thought Wynn was just OK. Jeff Howe had him down for giving up a strip sack, 3 QB hits, and 2 other pressures. Bedard had him down for 6.5 total pressures out of the 11 given up on the line. He was better in the running game than Newhouse was, but struggled in pass protection. I thought Mason regressed from the level he played at against Philly. Howe only had him giving up a sack and a holding call. To my eyes, he did not play well. Bedard had him down for giving up 4 run stuffs. Bedard has the Cowboys getting pressure on Brady 28.2 percent which is in line from the average of the 10 previous games of 29.2 percent.
 

Jimbodandy

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Wynn clearly helped with the running. Brady seemed to take a shitload of pressures still, but there were a few occasions where he could have knitted a full afghan back there too. Is there a metric for "number of dropbacks where there was actually time for a double move somewhere anywhere?".

Couldn't stop watching Mason. He was atrocious at times. Was surprised to hear that Cannon was the sick one.
 

RetractableRoof

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Wynn clearly helped with the running. Brady seemed to take a shitload of pressures still, but there were a few occasions where he could have knitted a full afghan back there too. Is there a metric for "number of dropbacks where there was actually time for a double move somewhere anywhere?".

Couldn't stop watching Mason. He was atrocious at times. Was surprised to hear that Cannon was the sick one.
Doesn't Mason struggle with footwork at times? Wouldn't that be a bad thing in the mud/field conditions of this game?
 

McBride11

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There’s no other way to explain his dip in play.
How much does losing Andrews hurt? Thuney - Andrews - Mason was like the best interior line trio.
Mason injury
Mason getting poor calls from Karras
Mason helping out Karras or Cannon - bc now Cannon doesnt have DA or Gronking
Combo the above.

I thought Andrews from day 1 was the biggest loss. Stork had his year, but after the head bob and falling apart Andrews stepped in and this line was one of the best in football.
 

EdRalphRomero

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I just rewatched most of the first half just trying to watch Mason. He obviously was bad. But I can't say I saw any sign of an injury, ankle or otherwise (but I have absolutely no expertise here). Is this version of Shaq better than Ferentz or Eluemunor? If he is injured would a month off as a game day inactive fix it? Cannon was sick and Karras is a backup but Mason seems to be the problem. Anyone smarter than me see better what is going on?
 

CCR

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I just rewatched most of the first half just trying to watch Mason. He obviously was bad. But I can't say I saw any sign of an injury, ankle or otherwise (but I have absolutely no expertise here). Is this version of Shaq better than Ferentz or Eluemunor? If he is injured would a month off as a game day inactive fix it? Cannon was sick and Karras is a backup but Mason seems to be the problem. Anyone smarter than me see better what is going on?
This article is from before the Dallas game -


9) Shaq Mason
After a shaky start to the season, veteran right guard Shaq Mason has positioned himself once again as one of the top offensive guards in the NFL. His 73.0 overall grade by PFF ranks as 9th best amongst guards in the league, and his contributions to New England's offensive line have been tremendously helpful in a down year for the unit.
Week 12 is the best example of how dominant Mason has been at times this season. Let PFF explain:
"Mason led all Patriots players in overall grade at 88.1 in the team’s 17-10 win over the Eagles in Week 11. He earned an 84.5 run-blocking grade and allowed just one pressure from 50 pass-blocking snaps."
It would likely take a couple absentee's from the Pro Bowl for Mason to make his way onto the AFC's roster. But that doesn't make him less deserving of a spot in the Pro Bowl.
 

SMU_Sox

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Wynn was a lot better after the first quarter in pass pro. He had a tough matchup too. I thought he played very well. In run blocking he was much better than Newhouse. His athleticism helps him peel off blocks and take on additional bodies. I think someone mentioned this upthread but it is no surprise they ran to the left twice to ice it. If he can stay healthy all signs point to we have a good tackle on our roster.
 

EdRalphRomero

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This article is from before the Dallas game -


9) Shaq Mason
After a shaky start to the season, veteran right guard Shaq Mason has positioned himself once again as one of the top offensive guards in the NFL. His 73.0 overall grade by PFF ranks as 9th best amongst guards in the league, and his contributions to New England's offensive line have been tremendously helpful in a down year for the unit.
Week 12 is the best example of how dominant Mason has been at times this season. Let PFF explain:
"Mason led all Patriots players in overall grade at 88.1 in the team’s 17-10 win over the Eagles in Week 11. He earned an 84.5 run-blocking grade and allowed just one pressure from 50 pass-blocking snaps."
It would likely take a couple absentee's from the Pro Bowl for Mason to make his way onto the AFC's roster. But that doesn't make him less deserving of a spot in the Pro Bowl.
I'm not sure what to take from that. I think PFF's ranking system is pretty questionable (aren't they the ones who ranked Gilmore as the 21st best corner in the league recently?). As you point out, this was from before the Cowboys game and it did appear that he had a decent game against the Eagles. But I just have no way to get my head around him being one of the top guards in the NFL. Do you think he has been playing at that level this year?
 

CCR

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I'm not sure what to take from that. I think PFF's ranking system is pretty questionable (aren't they the ones who ranked Gilmore as the 21st best corner in the league recently?). As you point out, this was from before the Cowboys game and it did appear that he had a decent game against the Eagles. But I just have no way to get my head around him being one of the top guards in the NFL. Do you think he has been playing at that level this year?
No, I agree with you. I was actually looking for information on a potential injury when I came across that article. It doesn't pass the eye test so I was equally surprised.
 

DeadlySplitter

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bump.

this unit was straight up bad tonight and the main non-referee reason we lost. Wynn is showing not to be the savior, he's solid but still a rookie. Ferentz is not capable unlike Karras. Mason & Cannon keep giving up plays they did not last year.

do you have any magic left, Dante?
 

BigSoxFan

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bump.

this unit was straight up bad tonight and the main non-referee reason we lost. Wynn is showing not to be the savior, he's solid but still a rookie. Ferentz is not capable unlike Karras. Mason & Cannon keep giving up plays they did not last year.

do you have any magic left, Dante?
The regression of Mason/Cannon this year has been incredibly disheartening. Andrews’ injury obviously sucks. A lot. Wynn’s injury hurt us but he’s back now and is at least playing decent. If we got 2018 Cannon/Mason, it would fix a lot of what ails this team. But both have been pretty bad, which is killing this offense more than the skill position personnel.
 

BaseballJones

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The regression of Mason/Cannon this year has been incredibly disheartening. Andrews’ injury obviously sucks. A lot. Wynn’s injury hurt us but he’s back now and is at least playing decent. If we got 2018 Cannon/Mason, it would fix a lot of what ails this team. But both have been pretty bad, which is killing this offense more than the skill position personnel.
From what I've read from people who know more about OL play, Andrews' loss is enormous because it affects line calls and it has a cascading effect. Mason has to help the C more than before (Andrews could hold his own against basically anyone), which means he can't help Cannon. Cannon has been either hurt or ill (or both) and clearly has been ineffective. If Andrews was still there, Mason could help Cannon and it would all look a LOT better.

Add to that the losses of Gronk and Allen and Develin, and that's a hell of a lot of elite-level blocking that's no longer on the team.

I just wish there was a way around it, but it doesn't appear that there is. As usual, O-line play is paramount to offensive success.
 

BigSoxFan

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From what I've read from people who know more about OL play, Andrews' loss is enormous because it affects line calls and it has a cascading effect. Mason has to help the C more than before (Andrews could hold his own against basically anyone), which means he can't help Cannon. Cannon has been either hurt or ill (or both) and clearly has been ineffective. If Andrews was still there, Mason could help Cannon and it would all look a LOT better.

Add to that the losses of Gronk and Allen and Develin, and that's a hell of a lot of elite-level blocking that's no longer on the team.

I just wish there was a way around it, but it doesn't appear that there is. As usual, O-line play is paramount to offensive success.
Yup. This team simply lost too much talent and I don’t see how it gets better other than on the margins.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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From what I've read from people who know more about OL play, Andrews' loss is enormous because it affects line calls and it has a cascading effect. Mason has to help the C more than before (Andrews could hold his own against basically anyone), which means he can't help Cannon. Cannon has been either hurt or ill (or both) and clearly has been ineffective. If Andrews was still there, Mason could help Cannon and it would all look a LOT better.

Add to that the losses of Gronk and Allen and Develin, and that's a hell of a lot of elite-level blocking that's no longer on the team.

I just wish there was a way around it, but it doesn't appear that there is. As usual, O-line play is paramount to offensive success.
Your comments about Andrews are correct. Awhile back, I did a You Tube search for Sony Michel highlights from his rookie year. I found a good one but what impressed me more than Michel's running was the incredible blocking and coordinated O Line play from 2018. Obviously cherry picking the best plays of the year, but as I watched this video I just shook my head with how much better the OL was last year. Losing Gronk, Devlin and Andrews (and Trent Brown) has been a challenge to the offensive game plan that I'm not sure can be overcome especially against the elite teams.
 
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mwonow

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Bodine can't be worse than Ferentz, right? I mean, the guy started many games in the NFL, and likely didn't end up on roller skates every play during those years...