2019 Pats: OL Discussion

Saints Rest

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The Cannon Injury
The Karras Lobs
Wynn
The Bench

Looks like a lot of things to discuss about the OLine.

RE: Cannon. My guess is a separated shoulder which probably means he misses 4 weeks or so. I bet they will keep Thuney there, bring Bodine back to play C, and move Karras to LG.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I’m not sure what to make of Karras’ shotgun snaps. The ball floats to the QB, and seemingly gets there an instant more slowly. That can’t be ideal long-term.
 

DrewDawg

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Well, based on the schedule the next 7 games, we got time to figure it out.
 

lexrageorge

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I thought during the telecast they mentioned that Karras really hadn't played much center at all prior to last night, even in college. Which would mean he didn't have a lot of time to ramp up on the line calls and practice the various snaps. The coaching staff probably figured they can live with the lob snap for a game or two anyway; it's better than having one sail over Brady's head.

Depth is a concern; not sure how fixable that is, especially if Cannon is out for long term (and shoulders are fairly important for an OL). One of the less reported flaws with the 2015 team that lost to Denver in the AFCCG was the offensive line injuries. Solder went down early, and Cannon, Vollmer, Tre Jackson, and Stork all missed chunks of time due to injury that season.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I think Karras probably just needs reps. Its not rocket science so I'm pretty confident it can be fixed. They may have just told him not to stress out about that part right now and just to focus on getting the protections right and not snapping it over Brady's head or at his feet.

Sucked to see Cannon go down but the soft schedule in the first half gives the team a lot of flexibility in managing injuries as long as they're not season ending. I'm no doctor but my layman's understanding is that there are a pretty wide range of possibilities for a shoulder injury based on severity.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I think Karras probably just needs reps. Its not rocket science so I'm pretty confident it can be fixed. They may have just told him not to stress out about that part right now and just to focus on getting the protections right and not snapping it over Brady's head or at his feet.
Agree with this. He was probably struggling with crisp shotgun snaps and Dante/BB at some point were just like "for now, just lob it and don't try to make them perfect and we'll work on that over the course of the season." And while the lob snaps aren't particularly pretty to watch, there were only 1 or 2 times during the game last night where I thought they actually affected Brady's ability to get a pass in on time - for the most part it didn't really seem to affect Brady or the offense generally.
 

joe dokes

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Agree with this. He was probably struggling with crisp shotgun snaps and Dante/BB at some point were just like "for now, just lob it and don't try to make them perfect and we'll work on that over the course of the season." And while the lob snaps aren't particularly pretty to watch, there were only 1 or 2 times during the game last night where I thought they actually affected Brady's ability to get a pass in on time - for the most part it didn't really seem to affect Brady or the offense generally.
Just one more usually-hidden advantage Brady brings, giving them a slight margin of error on a generally critical part of every offensive play.
 

kenneycb

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True but some centers do get the yips and can't do shotgun snaps. Damien Woody being a top of mind example of this.
 

lexrageorge

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For all the talk about Karras, at least he didn't (a) ground ball a shotgun snap that required the QB to become a shortstop to field it; or (b) forget to snap the ball altogether.
 

nayrbrey

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As of now they have Skipper, Toran and Gossett on the PS for OL depth.
Of those Skipper is listed as having played Tackle (both right and left). A quick search on the others I couldn’t find any info on their position experience. I’d assume Skipper would get called up if Cannon is out for a while.
 

EdRalphRomero

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O-line certainly feels like the potential weak-spot on the team.

Are we sure Karras was making the line calls yesterday? I wasn't in a great spot to watch the game and see. It seems to me that potentially Thuney (assuming he is playing Guard of course) could take that on and let the Center focus on one less thing.

What is the thinking about Korey Cunningham? He's started 24 games at Tackle, so he has some experience.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Hey, if we're talking OL play, I want to talk about Isaiah Wynn. He looked great protecting Brady's blind side almost all night. I think he gave up one pressure, unless there was one late in the game that I didn't pick up. Depth is most definitely a concern along the entire OL, but it was very nice to see Wynn lock down Bud Dupree all night. Wynn may not be the tallest OL, but man did he look rock solid- quick feet, good hand usage and looks like a damn dam plugging up that left side.

Also, the game plan was great. Between the quick routes to Jules or a RB and the check downs to a 5 or 6 yard run, the Pats had the Steelers playing defense on defense all night. Mark Barron got abused by James White and the middle of the field was wide open for Jules on play action.
 

joe dokes

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Hey, if we're talking OL play, I want to talk about Isaiah Wynn. He looked great protecting Brady's blind side almost all night. I think he gave up one pressure, unless there was one late in the game that I didn't pick up. Depth is most definitely a concern along the entire OL, but it was very nice to see Wynn lock down Bud Dupree all night. Wynn may not be the tallest OL, but man did he look rock solid- quick feet, good hand usage and looks like a damn dam plugging up that left side.
He looked like a slightly bigger version of Mason. I could see why there was talk of moving him to guard.
 

ehaz

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As long as Cannon is healthy by week 7/8 they’ll be fine. The early schedule should be easy.

I’m more concerned about the running game due to the Andrews injury and questions about Karras, but that could be due to Sony facing stacked boxes (because he never saw any targets, I think defenses are keying in on him because Rex ran well). Hopefully reps and coaching can fix the C position.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Agree with this. He was probably struggling with crisp shotgun snaps and Dante/BB at some point were just like "for now, just lob it and don't try to make them perfect and we'll work on that over the course of the season." And while the lob snaps aren't particularly pretty to watch, there were only 1 or 2 times during the game last night where I thought they actually affected Brady's ability to get a pass in on time - for the most part it didn't really seem to affect Brady or the offense generally.
I think the major concern is that if Brady has to focus on receiving the ball for longer, that will delay him getting into his progressions and otherwise affect timing.
That was almost 20 years ago. The league is more than half shotgun nowadays; a center who can't shotgun snap is called a guard.
Wasn't Karras a college guard?
 

BaseballJones

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I thought the OL was modestly good last night. I know Brady was only sacked once, but it felt like he was under much more pressure than that. Also, they didn't really open up a whole lot for the running game. They weren't *bad*...just that they were "modestly good". Not great. Not bad. I want the shotgun snaps cleaned up. I want more push in the running game. I'd like more depth and better health. If that unit performs to their ability, this team might not lose a game all year. Everything else is that good.

Also...I wonder how much Gronk/Allen really helped the running game. Seems like...a lot. Their absence may be an issue. I know the Pats used no TE on more plays last night than they did all last season. I get that McD/BB will simply take what the defense gives them, and if Pittsburgh went hard after the running game of NE, it made sense for the Pats to simply say, fine, we'll spread you out and beat you that way. I mean, they did just put up 380 passing yards (and also 89 rushing yards, so it wasn't nothing) on what many consider to be a good Steelers defense.
 

Dernells Casket n Flagon

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Also...I wonder how much Gronk/Allen really helped the running game. Seems like...a lot. Their absence may be an issue.
Gronk, Allen, Trent Brown and Andrews all missing from blocking in the run game. It should have a pretty big impact, especially in the near term. This may very well be why we saw a bit more trickery than last year's ground and pound and will get better as the line stabilizes with real playing time under Dante.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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I thought the OL was modestly good last night. I know Brady was only sacked once, but it felt like he was under much more pressure than that. Also, they didn't really open up a whole lot for the running game. They weren't *bad*...just that they were "modestly good". Not great. Not bad. I want the shotgun snaps cleaned up. I want more push in the running game. I'd like more depth and better health. If that unit performs to their ability, this team might not lose a game all year. Everything else is that good.

Also...I wonder how much Gronk/Allen really helped the running game. Seems like...a lot. Their absence may be an issue. I know the Pats used no TE on more plays last night than they did all last season. I get that McD/BB will simply take what the defense gives them, and if Pittsburgh went hard after the running game of NE, it made sense for the Pats to simply say, fine, we'll spread you out and beat you that way. I mean, they did just put up 380 passing yards (and also 89 rushing yards, so it wasn't nothing) on what many consider to be a good Steelers defense.
The OL as a unit wasn't great. But I also think PIT has a solid front 7. Wynn did great against Dupree, but they still have guys like Heyward, Tuitt and Watt who can disrupt things, plus Bush to clean things up behind them. For opening night, I'll certainly take giving up 1 sack to these guys.

When the Pats did use a TE, Izzo was often helping block Watt on the other side of the line and they used the WR's (Gordon and Jules, in particular) to help set the edge in the rung game in ways they've utilized Gronk/Allen in the past. I think we'll see them do more of those thing to help the OL as they grow as a unit and wait for the other TE's to get back. Watson should help. So should the schedule.
 

RSN Diaspora

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It's hard to find any reason to be upset after last night's game, but if there's any place to be concerned, it's the O-Line. With David Andrews out for the season and Marcus Cannon possibly out for at least a period of time, we're thin on the line. So, what are the options?

One would seem to be to keep the improvised line with Jermaine Eluemunor at left guard and Joe Thuney staying at tackle. On one hand, they did fine for the time they were playing. On the other, it was limited to a few minutes of garbage time.

Another option would be to start Korey Cunningham at right tackle, moving Thuney back to left guard. This would be logical, but Cunningham has all of six NFL games under his belt and was expendable enough last night to be a healthy scratch.

They could re-sign Rusell Bodine and start him at center, moving Karras and Thuney back to their natural positions. Obvious downside here is that Karras did just fine at center last night and was originally believed to be a better option, since they cut Bodine instead of having him take Andrews' slot.

Maybe Cannon's injury isn't as bad as it looked, and he can come back, rendering this moot. But given the absence of cap space and low maneuverability post-AB, if Cannon is out for a while, we're going to need someone either inexperienced at their position or inexperienced in the NFL to step in. Protecting Brady is, of course, at least as important as ever as he gets older.
 

Super Nomario

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One would seem to be to keep the improvised line with Jermaine Eluemunor at left guard and Joe Thuney staying at tackle. On one hand, they did fine for the time they were playing. On the other, it was limited to a few minutes of garbage time.
They did not do fine. After Cannon left, they had four carries for one total yard, another four-yard run called back on an offensive hold, and three incompletions by Brady under duress. Obviously it's garbage time and not necessarily predictive of what they'd do given a full week to prepare, but -5 total yards on eight offensive plays isn't fine.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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Hopefully it’s good news on Cannon but even if it is good news the lasting effect from that injury last night is that one lineman went down and their lack of depth in that group was immediately highlighted. It’s also only week 1 and the NFL is in many ways just a 17 week war of attrition until the playoffs start. Marcus Cannon is not going to be be only offensive lineman that started last night to miss time this season. Someone else will get hurt at some point, hopefully it’s minor but it’d be more unusual if it didn’t happen then if it did. The big unknown is still the three new guys (assuming Bodine is coming back here) and if they are quality depth after a few weeks of getting up to speed with Scar and the offense or if they are just roster filler. Clearly this team is a contender but their greatest exposure at the moment looks to be if 1-2 more starting OL go down.
 

loshjott

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Some context with Patriots starting right tackle Marcus Cannon’s shoulder injury: It is not considered anything season-ending, or long-term in nature, per a source. Cannon underwent tests Monday after landing hard on the shoulder in the fourth quarter Sunday night.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Newhouse looked like ass coming in for Wynn. Cunningham not much better.

if Wynn has another long-term injury, I would expect a trade at some point.
 

ehaz

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Yes, how do we get Trent Williams? Injuries to the o-line seem like the only thing that can take this team down.
 

Jimbodandy

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The offense may be severely limited over the next few weeks. Andrews done. Cannon and Wynn--crossing fingers. Thuney got dinged too today.

Brady has weapons up the wazoo, but those 50+ bombs like he threw to PD won't be much use when he's running for his life.

Dante might chicken wire and joint compound enough to keep Brady generally upright, but I'll be watching for news on Cannon and Wynn this week.
 

lexrageorge

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The offense may be severely limited over the next few weeks. Andrews done. Cannon and Wynn--crossing fingers. Thuney got dinged too today.

Brady has weapons up the wazoo, but those 50+ bombs like he threw to PD won't be much use when he's running for his life.

Dante might chicken wire and joint compound enough to keep Brady generally upright, but I'll be watching for news on Cannon and Wynn this week.
I thought I heard on the telecast that Cannon's availability was an unknown until just before game time. Which tells me he's close. Still something to watch on the practice report, but it doesn't sound long term.

Wynn's injury is concerning given that they said it was a foot injury.
 

McBride11

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Id rather let Cannon rest until 100% than come back at 90% if there is a risk of worsening it and ending his season.

And I know it has probably been mentioned - but Andrews is confirmed done for year correct?

Williams is still holding out from WAS. If the Wynn news is not good, my that would wonderful to scoop him back up.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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Id rather let Cannon rest until 100% than come back at 90% if there is a risk of worsening it and ending his season.

And I know it has probably been mentioned - but Andrews is confirmed done for year correct?

Williams is still holding out from WAS. If the Wynn news is not good, my that would wonderful to scoop him back up.
Correct- he was not on the original 53.