2019 Pats: In-Season Roster & Injury Discussion

Reverend

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I know a little about this issue, since my wife is one of the researchers on one of the two big NFL concussion grants. It seems that there is a protective mechanism when men tens up their necks and upper body in anticipation of a crash or hit. That helps protect the brain. The danger and risk are much higher when you dont see the impact coming, even if it a less hard hit. Absent that tensing up the brain gets bounced around pretty good.
Interesting. Thanks for that.

Question: How does the quality versus quantity issue shake out? Like, the non-braced collisions may be worse, but the braces ones are more frequent. Any sense of how much/many braced collisions it takes to make one braced? Or something like that?

Like, when would a FB’s or OL’s consistent braced collisions outweigh the less frequent unprepared hits say a WR takes?
 

Marciano490

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I know a little about this issue, since my wife is one of the researchers on one of the two big NFL concussion grants. It seems that there is a protective mechanism when men tens up their necks and upper body in anticipation of a crash or hit. That helps protect the brain. The danger and risk are much higher when you dont see the impact coming, even if it a less hard hit. Absent that tensing up the brain gets bounced around pretty good.
Makes sense in light of the old boxing adage that the worst punch is the one you don’t see coming.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Interesting. Thanks for that.

Question: How does the quality versus quantity issue shake out? Like, the non-braced collisions may be worse, but the braces ones are more frequent. Any sense of how much/many braced collisions it takes to make one braced? Or something like that?

Like, when would a FB’s or OL’s consistent braced collisions outweigh the less frequent unprepared hits say a WR takes?
I think there is still a lot not known. But I remember discussions about CTE that focused on repetitive sunconcussive impacts as opposed to the relatively fewer big concussive hits. But then you have Ryan Freel having had CTE - someone who clearly didn't have the kind of history an OL would have.
 

loshjott

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Hmm....


Adam Schefter
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A new QB in New England: Patriots are signing former Jaguars-Eagles-Browns QB Cody Kessler, per source.
 

BaseballJones

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Reiss: "Once the Patriots released QB Brian Hoyer, and went with 2 QBs, there was always a chance of bringing in a third QB for depth. The balance was that the club didn't want to take away practice reps from Jarrett Stidham. But if Tom Brady takes some days off, it helps to have 3rd QB."
 

DrewDawg

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Reiss: "Once the Patriots released QB Brian Hoyer, and went with 2 QBs, there was always a chance of bringing in a third QB for depth. The balance was that the club didn't want to take away practice reps from Jarrett Stidham. But if Tom Brady takes some days off, it helps to have 3rd QB."
Makes sense, but there has to be a roster move with it.
 

Harry Hooper

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Do they? Isn't a spot open with the Devlin to IR news? Johnson was active on Sunday, before Devlin went on IR so he's not "taking" Devlin's spot
There are already 53 players on the active roster at Patriots.com. Develin is not one of them. Perhaps you forgot they added Benenoch? Maybe Calhoun or Ebner goes on IR, or someone like Wise or Ferentz gets cut.
 

DrewDawg

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There are already 53 players on the active roster at Patriots.com. Develin is not one of them. Perhaps you forgot they added Benenoch? Maybe Calhoun or Ebner goes on IR, or someone like Wise or Ferentz gets cut.
Per Kyed they had open spot with Develin going to IR.


Also mentioned they will need a spot for Ben Watson, so Kessler might just be here for a week.
 

Harry Hooper

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Per Kyed they had open spot with Develin going to IR.
OK, but neither Develin or Kessler are among the 53 listed as the active roster on Patriots.com.

Edit: They have Ben Watson listed as active, so there's the spot.
 

RedOctober3829

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Per Kyed they had open spot with Develin going to IR.


Also mentioned they will need a spot for Ben Watson, so Kessler might just be here for a week.
Or Izzo could be gone when Watson comes back. He hasn't shown up very well blocking where he's supposed to be good at it.
 

DrewDawg

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OK, but neither Develin or Kessler are among the 53 listed as the active roster on Patriots.com.

Edit: They have Ben Watson listed as active, so there's the spot.
It's because Ben Watson does not count against the 53 yet and he's listed.
 

Harry Hooper

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From the other thread, Mike Dussault tweeted that Kessler is practicing (#6) plus an unknown TE (#82).
 

Jinhocho

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Interesting. Thanks for that.

Question: How does the quality versus quantity issue shake out? Like, the non-braced collisions may be worse, but the braces ones are more frequent. Any sense of how much/many braced collisions it takes to make one braced? Or something like that?

Like, when would a FB’s or OL’s consistent braced collisions outweigh the less frequent unprepared hits say a WR takes?
Take what I say with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that:

1) The magic number of concussions before you are essentially assured of long term problems is 4. Severity etc is more complicated, but 4 is the magic number.
2) I know they found linemen in particular had a lot of subconcussive hits - they smash the beginning of the play braced, then often during the play get banged again and often subconcussive hits they dont see coming. Multiply that across all the plays in a game all the games in a season and thats like being a boxer.
3) I dont think the math is as easy as you say for braced versus unbraced. There is a lot that goes into it and I have no idea how you would measure that. Its some fascinating work the little I know of it. Also, she has briefed and been part of briefings for Goodell. As meh as his rep is, she said he is a very smart dude.
 

lexrageorge

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It depends if they are really injured to the extent that they can't return, or if the team just has no confidence in them to contribute this year.
Wynn was playing well before he got hurt. Harry looked good in preseason until he got hurt. So the latter seems unlikely assuming they can return to full health this season (which is admittedly an unknown at this point, and will be until at least Week 6).
 

Super Nomario

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Wynn was playing well before he got hurt. Harry looked good in preseason until he got hurt. So the latter seems unlikely assuming they can return to full health this season (which is admittedly an unknown at this point, and will be until at least Week 6).
Harry returned to practice by the end of preseason, and Wynn's injury was initially reported as a 3-4 week thing. Perhaps there were additional setbacks or the injuries were worse than anticipated. But based on what was initially reported, it was a surprise / disappointment for them to go on IR at all. Missing the whole year would be very bad.
 

lexrageorge

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Harry returned to practice by the end of preseason, and Wynn's injury was initially reported as a 3-4 week thing. Perhaps there were additional setbacks or the injuries were worse than anticipated. But based on what was initially reported, it was a surprise / disappointment for them to go on IR at all. Missing the whole year would be very bad.
Not sure how much I put into the fact that Harry returned to practice. In his case, if he was going to be limited for the first 3-4 weeks, it would make sense to put him on IR and save the roster spot, given they were struggling to get everyone they wanted onto the original 53.

The 3-4 week report on Wynn was after they had the X-rays, but had not yet reviewed the MRI results. Several of the docs here posted that if there was ligament damage, it could be longer than just 3-4 weeks. Once you get to about 6 weeks, the IR becomes a real consideration.

It's not like there is a skill in drafting players that magically avoid getting high ankle sprains, turf toe, and popped Achilles. It's just life in the NFL. Calling it "unacceptable" is just silly given the info we do have today.

EDIT: I don't have data to prove it, but it seems intuitive that the players available on the waiver wire today are going to better than those available in say, Week 8. So I can see the Pats being perhaps a bit more willing to stash a player on IR this time of the year, figuring if a player is going to be gone for 4-6 weeks anyway, it may be better to use the roster spot and get a Newhouse now and hope he can turn into a league average starter at the position. That may not be possible later in the season, as injuries mount and the practice squads start to get picked over.
 
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Super Nomario

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Not sure how much I put into the fact that Harry returned to practice. In his case, if he was going to be limited for the first 3-4 weeks, it would make sense to put him on IR and save the roster spot, given they were struggling to get everyone they wanted onto the original 53.
But if Harry stays on IR all year, that tells me they think he's kind of useless at this point in his career. That's pretty bad for a first-round pick.

The 3-4 week report on Wynn was after they had the X-rays, but had not yet reviewed the MRI results. Several of the docs here posted that if there was ligament damage, it could be longer than just 3-4 weeks. Once you get to about 6 weeks, the IR becomes a real consideration.

It's not like there is a skill in drafting players that magically avoid getting high ankle sprains, turf toe, and popped Achilles. It's just life in the NFL. Calling it "unacceptable" is just silly given the info we do have today.
The Wynn situation I agree is different, and it's mostly just unfortunate given he wasn't a Ras-I Dowling or Easley with a bunch of college injuries (assuming there wasn't medical stuff we didn't know about that the Patriots should have). If he misses the whole year though, he's not someone they can count on going forward.
 

DrewDawg

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But if Harry stays on IR all year, that tells me they think he's kind of useless at this point in his career. That's pretty bad for a first-round pick.
I don't think "useless" is the right word. Less useful than other options.
 

InstaFace

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yeah sorry but calling a severe, season-ending injury "unacceptable" just reeks of blaming the victim. How dare you not keep your ligaments together and your toe un-sprained? Such insolence will not go unpunished.
 
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Harry had training camp ups and downs typical of many rookies, including first founders and especially WRs. His upside seems quite promising. The posts on here re his IR stay seem hyperbolic to me.

Given his injury and the WR depth chart at the time, stashing him on IR-DTR seemed prudent to the point of obvious. I can’t imagine they’ve given up on him, even if he had looked really bad in TC-preseason - and he didn’t.
 

Super Nomario

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Harry had training camp ups and downs typical of many rookies, including first founders and especially WRs. His upside seems quite promising. The posts on here re his IR stay seem hyperbolic to me.

Given his injury and the WR depth chart at the time, stashing him on IR-DTR seemed prudent to the point of obvious. I can’t imagine they’ve given up on him, even if he had looked really bad in TC-preseason - and he didn’t.
Does it alter your opinion any if they elect to keep him on IR all season?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Does it alter your opinion any if they elect to keep him on IR all season?
I think that's reading a little too much into it. Wynn is the priority of the three guys on the IR. Picking Wynn over Harry is a no brainer, unless another WR goes down between now and then. Pretty much picking Wynn over just about anyone other than the main stars seems like the only option if he's healthy enough to potentially contribute even as late as December.

Accordingly, if Harry doesn't play it means only that they don't value him as much as they value Develin. There are an awful lot of things that go into it, from depth at the position to roster flexibility, etc. This seems like a straight Harry v. Develin question and just because you answer that question Develin doesn't mean that Harry will never contribute here.
 

Pxer

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This also affords them the luxury of waiting to see what position needs fortification more come week 8,9, 10, etc.

Although Meyers and Harry have different skillsets, Meyers' emergence allowed them to redshirt Harry if the WR corps is enact by the time they need to make a decision.
 

Super Nomario

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It's my understanding that pretty much everybody is useless when they're seriously hurt regardless of draft position.
You're assuming he's seriously hurt. He was back at practice before the end of the preseason. He was working out at a side field today with Obi Melifonwu. Maybe there's some health thing that we don't know about, but based on the info we have it certainly seems like he should be ready to go after Week 6 when he's eligible to practice. If they keep him out all year, it looks to me like a sign that they just don't think he can help.

I think that's reading a little too much into it. Wynn is the priority of the three guys on the IR. Picking Wynn over Harry is a no brainer, unless another WR goes down between now and then. Pretty much picking Wynn over just about anyone other than the main stars seems like the only option if he's healthy enough to potentially contribute even as late as December.

Accordingly, if Harry doesn't play it means only that they don't value him as much as they value Develin. There are an awful lot of things that go into it, from depth at the position to roster flexibility, etc. This seems like a straight Harry v. Develin question and just because you answer that question Develin doesn't mean that Harry will never contribute here.
They had other options here. If Develin is week-to-week, they could have floated him along on the main roster rather than signing Cody Kessler. They put Harry on IR on the first place so they could re-sign Demaryius Thomas, a player they thought so much of that they traded him a week later. It's Harry vs Develin now, but only because of decisions they already made.

(Maybe / likely? Develin's or Wynn's injuries are severe enough to keep one of them out the whole year and this whole discussion is moot. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case with Harry)

This also affords them the luxury of waiting to see what position needs fortification more come week 8,9, 10, etc.

Although Meyers and Harry have different skillsets, Meyers' emergence allowed them to redshirt Harry if the WR corps is enact by the time they need to make a decision.
Kind of they can afford to wait. Harry is eligible to return to practice Week 7, Wynn not until Week 9 and Develin not until Week 10. So the Harry decision comes up sooner; maybe before they know the ultimate health target with the other two guys.
 

Pxer

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You're assuming he's seriously hurt. He was back at practice before the end of the preseason. He was working out at a side field today with Obi Melifonwu. Maybe there's some health thing that we don't know about, but based on the info we have it certainly seems like he should be ready to go after Week 6 when he's eligible to practice. If they keep him out all year, it looks to me like a sign that they just don't think he can help.


They had other options here. If Develin is week-to-week, they could have floated him along on the main roster rather than signing Cody Kessler. They put Harry on IR on the first place so they could re-sign Demaryius Thomas, a player they thought so much of that they traded him a week later. It's Harry vs Develin now, but only because of decisions they already made.

(Maybe / likely? Develin's or Wynn's injuries are severe enough to keep one of them out the whole year and this whole discussion is moot. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case with Harry)


Kind of they can afford to wait. Harry is eligible to return to practice Week 7, Wynn not until Week 9 and Develin not until Week 10. So the Harry decision comes up sooner; maybe before they know the ultimate health target with the other two guys.
True, Harry is eligible first, but they can defer the decision and just not bring him back to practice until there is more clarity for the other guys, correct?