2019 Pats Defense: What Are We Witnessing?
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
At this point, it doesn't really matter that they've played two crappy teams and one potentially not-so-good team (Pit with Roethlisberger). I don't care. You just don't hold NFL teams down like the Pats' defense has.
The 19 Patriots have had this three game stretch:
- Week 1 vs Pittsburgh: 3 points allowed, 308 yards allowed, 15 first downs allowed
- Week 2 vs Miami: 0 points allowed, 184 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
- Week 3 vs NY Jets: 0 points allowed, 105 yards allowed, 6 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 3 points allowed, 597 yards allowed, 32 first downs allowed
The 85 Bears had one three-game stretch like this:
- Week 10 vs Detroit (7-9): 3 points allowed, 106 yards allowed, 8 first downs allowed
- Week 11 vs Dallas (10-6): 0 points allowed, 171 yards allowed, 12 first downs allowed
- Week 12 vs Atlanta (4-12): 0 points allowed, 119 yards allowed, 10 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 3 points allowed, 396 yards allowed, 30 first downs allowed
The 00 Ravens had this three-game stretch:
- Week 12 vs Dallas (5-11): 0 points allowed, 192 yards allowed, 9 first downs allowed
- Week 13 vs Cleveland (3-13): 7 points allowed, 112 yards allowed, 5 first downs allowed
- Week 15 vs San Diego (1-15)...week 14 was a bye: 3 points allowed, 128 yards allowed, 9 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 10 points allowed, 432 yards allowed, 23 first downs allowed
The 02 Bucs had this three-game stretch:
- Week 4 vs Cincinnati (2-14): 7 points allowed, 168 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
- Week 5 vs Atlanta (9-6-1): 6 points allowed, 243 yards allowed, 14 first downs allowed
- Week 6 vs Cleveland (9-7): 3 points allowed, 194 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 16 points allowed, 605 yards allowed, 36 first downs allowed
The 13 Seahawks had this three-game stretch:
- Week 15 vs NY Giants (7-9): 0 points allowed, 181 yards allowed, 12 first downs allowed
- Week 16 vs Arizona (10-6): 17 points allowed, 307 yards allowed, 16 first downs allowed
- Week 17 vs St. Louis (7-9): 9 points allowed, 158 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 26 points allowed, 646 yards allowed, 39 first downs allowed
So the Pats so far are in absolutely ELITE company. So far. Long way to go.
The 19 Patriots have had this three game stretch:
- Week 1 vs Pittsburgh: 3 points allowed, 308 yards allowed, 15 first downs allowed
- Week 2 vs Miami: 0 points allowed, 184 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
- Week 3 vs NY Jets: 0 points allowed, 105 yards allowed, 6 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 3 points allowed, 597 yards allowed, 32 first downs allowed
The 85 Bears had one three-game stretch like this:
- Week 10 vs Detroit (7-9): 3 points allowed, 106 yards allowed, 8 first downs allowed
- Week 11 vs Dallas (10-6): 0 points allowed, 171 yards allowed, 12 first downs allowed
- Week 12 vs Atlanta (4-12): 0 points allowed, 119 yards allowed, 10 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 3 points allowed, 396 yards allowed, 30 first downs allowed
The 00 Ravens had this three-game stretch:
- Week 12 vs Dallas (5-11): 0 points allowed, 192 yards allowed, 9 first downs allowed
- Week 13 vs Cleveland (3-13): 7 points allowed, 112 yards allowed, 5 first downs allowed
- Week 15 vs San Diego (1-15)...week 14 was a bye: 3 points allowed, 128 yards allowed, 9 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 10 points allowed, 432 yards allowed, 23 first downs allowed
The 02 Bucs had this three-game stretch:
- Week 4 vs Cincinnati (2-14): 7 points allowed, 168 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
- Week 5 vs Atlanta (9-6-1): 6 points allowed, 243 yards allowed, 14 first downs allowed
- Week 6 vs Cleveland (9-7): 3 points allowed, 194 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 16 points allowed, 605 yards allowed, 36 first downs allowed
The 13 Seahawks had this three-game stretch:
- Week 15 vs NY Giants (7-9): 0 points allowed, 181 yards allowed, 12 first downs allowed
- Week 16 vs Arizona (10-6): 17 points allowed, 307 yards allowed, 16 first downs allowed
- Week 17 vs St. Louis (7-9): 9 points allowed, 158 yards allowed, 11 first downs allowed
TOTAL: 26 points allowed, 646 yards allowed, 39 first downs allowed
So the Pats so far are in absolutely ELITE company. So far. Long way to go.
We can't even begin to talk about this defense in the same breath as the 85 Bears, etc., until they face a real team or two.
The Jets are a lousy team that played their 3rd string QB and the Dolphins just put up 67 yards in the second half against Dallas today. Miami is a historically bad team. The three Pats' opponents so far are a combined 0-9.
I think this is the best defense the Pats have had in a long time, but let's see them prove it.
The Jets are a lousy team that played their 3rd string QB and the Dolphins just put up 67 yards in the second half against Dallas today. Miami is a historically bad team. The three Pats' opponents so far are a combined 0-9.
I think this is the best defense the Pats have had in a long time, but let's see them prove it.
My only point was that even against crap teams, dominant defenses rarely do what the Pats have just done. This three game run is obviously against bad competition. But the historically great Ravens defense did about the same thing against three teams who finished a combined 9-39. It’s really hard to completely shut NFL teams - even bad ones - down like the Pats have done.
I’m NOT saying that this defense is as good as those defenses listed in my previous post. Only time will tell. Just that so far what the Pats have done is right up there with some of the best defenses ever.
I’m NOT saying that this defense is as good as those defenses listed in my previous post. Only time will tell. Just that so far what the Pats have done is right up there with some of the best defenses ever.
I'm not ready to drink the Kool-Aid and agree we need to play some real teams but we should recognize that playing D post-Polian rules (2005) which hugely inflate passing stats along with rules and reffing changes mandated by CTE/dangerous hits, make defending harder than in earlier years, and makes what the Pats have done so far pretty impressive, And as noted upthread, this D has been taking shape since coming back from the bye week last year. They are simply really tough to score on.
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The ‘85 Bears and ‘00 Ravens defenses are impossible to replicate given rule changes and changes in offensive personnel/strategy.
But, yeah, this defense is very good. The quality of the personnel is hard to argue with, and we know they’ve got tactical chops to match anyone.
But, yeah, this defense is very good. The quality of the personnel is hard to argue with, and we know they’ve got tactical chops to match anyone.
I know that the Jets and Dolphins have terrible offenses. But I’m now beginning to see people say the Steelers’ offense we faced was “in transition,” with the implication that it wasn’t good.
Is that true? I get that Ben is hurt now and they have a ways to go. But going into week 1, I think most people expected that offense to be decent.
Is that true? I get that Ben is hurt now and they have a ways to go. But going into week 1, I think most people expected that offense to be decent.
One thing to point out: I don’t think we ever saw Van Noy and Collins on the field together in 2016. Having the two of those guys on the field with Hightower is dynamic, and explosive. Add in a deep, experienced, secondary, and a more than capable D line, and you have a monster on D.
This D is now one game away from tying the 2000 Steelers, 1976 Steelers, and 1970 Cowboys post-merger record of 5 straight games without allowing an offensive touchdown.
The Steel Curtain had a slow start that year including giving up 30 points in a week 3 loss to the Grogan and Francis led Patriots but between weeks 6-14 allowed a minuscule average of 3.1 points per game.
A bunch of Hall of Famers on that ‘76 Steelers defense including Lambert, Ham, Blount and Greene.
Lofty company for the Patriots particularly considering how different the game is today.
85 Bears D went 0, 0, 10 in the playoffs. Including stuffing the Giants and Bill Parcells at the goal line just before the half of the first playoff game. The Giants D played them evenly in the first half. Bears scored on the shortest punt return for a TD when the strong wind blew the ball sonhard Landeta whiffed the punt and a guy picked it up and ran it in from 5 yards out. Parcells went for the TD just before half which would have been a big momentum builder. Instead, stuffed and 7-0 Bears at half time.
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And, of that 10, 3 were on a short field, and 7 were in garbage time of a blowout.
I don’t think we have had a better all around LB crew than Collins-Bentley-KVN-Hightower-Roberts. I am pretty sure we have never had this kind of skill and depth in the secondary. If they can stay healthy on D and get healthy on the O-Line, this team is going to be scary good regardless of the competition.
Also, I absolutely LOVE having a Patriots team lead by its defense again.
Eh, hard to beat Bruschi/Vrabel/McGinest/Johnson/Phifer. That group was a bit older but I think I'd prefer it over the current group (at least now, with just a three game sample).
Agreed on the secondary, although it's a bit harder to judge this group against the one from the beginning of the dynasty due to the rule changes.
Agreed on the secondary, although it's a bit harder to judge this group against the one from the beginning of the dynasty due to the rule changes.
McGinest would be viewed as an edge rusher in today's terminology. (He'd be grouped with Bennett, Calhoun, Simon, Winovich) as opposed to Collins, Van Noy, Hightower, etc.
I do think we need to see this, but what we have seen so far is as much as one could reasonably expect of a historically great defense in the same situation.
Two previous seasons the Patriots have had the #1 scoring defense in the NFL.
2003: allowed 238 points (14.9 per game)
2016: allowed 250 points (15.6 per game)
Currently they have allowed just 17 points (just 3 by the defense, but sadly, they ALL count in terms of points allowed), that's less than half of the #2 team (GB, who has allowed 35 points so far).
Long story short: good things happen when the Patriots have the #1 scoring defense in the NFL.
2003: allowed 238 points (14.9 per game)
2016: allowed 250 points (15.6 per game)
Currently they have allowed just 17 points (just 3 by the defense, but sadly, they ALL count in terms of points allowed), that's less than half of the #2 team (GB, who has allowed 35 points so far).
Long story short: good things happen when the Patriots have the #1 scoring defense in the NFL.
Exactly.
Pittsburgh
- Averaged 23.0 points a game against non-NE teams. Scored 3 points against NE. (with Roethlisberger)
- Averaged 250.0 yards a game against non-NE teams. Gained 308 yards against NE. (with Roethlisberger)
Miami
- Averaged 8.0 points a game against non-NE teams. Scored 0 points against NE.
- Averaged 241.5 yards a game against non-NE teams. Gained 184 yards against NE. (95 in garbage time)
NY Jets
- Averaged 9.5 points a game against non-NE teams. Scored 0 points against NE. (scored by the offense)
- Averaged 242.5 yards a game against non-NE teams. Gained 105 yards against NE.
So yeah, these three offenses are not good. But the Pats have throttled them to a much larger degree than their other opponents. That's one way to measure how effective the Pats' defense has been.
Early. Bad opponents. Yes yes yes.
NFL rank:
- Opp completion %: 1st (52.8%)
- Opp pass yds: 1st (162.3/g)
- INT: 1st (6)
- Sacks: 1st (13)
- Opp passer rating: 1st (44.5)
- Opp rush yds: 1st (36.7/g)
- Opp ypc: 1st (2.3)
So, uh, pretty good so far.
NFL rank:
- Opp completion %: 1st (52.8%)
- Opp pass yds: 1st (162.3/g)
- INT: 1st (6)
- Sacks: 1st (13)
- Opp passer rating: 1st (44.5)
- Opp rush yds: 1st (36.7/g)
- Opp ypc: 1st (2.3)
So, uh, pretty good so far.
As others have noted, what they've done so far is remarkable regardless of who they've played. My guess is that, even if the D continues to be great against better teams, we still won't see the same recognition and hype that we've seen with some previous dominant NFL units. There's no snarly, camera-mugging presence like Ray Lewis, and no catchy nickname. Plus the team in general just doesn't have that "blue-collar" rep; it's regarded more like a generally hated but begrudgingly respected corporate behemoth. When full credit does come, a lot of it will go to BB and his schemes. I'd be willing to bet that even most Pats fans couldn't name every d-lineman.
The Opp rush yds ranking may be a bit indicative (as it often is with good teams) of the fact that opponents can't stick to much of a running attack game plan when down so much so early, but nonetheless, the eye test suggests to me that the Pats have excellent abilities at all three levels, and in both phases of D. Combine that with the fact that much of their talent level is about the quality of their depth as it is their starters, they seem to be able to keep guys fresh, by rotating personnel with minimal falloff.
True on the rush yds per game. But the rush yards per CARRY number? Superlative. And they've faced two very good backs in Connor and Bell.
One of my enduring memories of the 2003-2004 era was being at a game with my brother when after the Patriots scored on the first drive of the afternoon, he turned to me, huge grin on his face, and said "Now we get to watch the defense!"
The D was clearly good enough to win 3 more SBs, of course. But they were not the main event or even on quasi equal footing with the offense.
Until now.
This is really fun.
The D was clearly good enough to win 3 more SBs, of course. But they were not the main event or even on quasi equal footing with the offense.
Until now.
This is really fun.
This IS fun. Back in 2003-2004 I was more worried when the offense was on the field than when the D was on the field - that they would turn it over or something bad would happen. Had 100% confidence in the D in those days. It's nice to have that feeling again.
Players shuffle in and out more nowadays, so there would be more to name. Not so in the old days. For years I could easily rattle off the front four for the Steel Curtain: Joe Greene, LC Greenwood, Ernie Holmes and Dwight White. The older than that Giants: Rosey Grier, Dick Modzelewski, Andy Robustelli, Jim Katcavage had cool names making them easier to remember.
The pairing of a Brady-led offense who has the answers to all of the tests out there and this defense is just awesome to see.
When Belichick has a shutdown corner taking away basically half the field, there is literally no defensive gameplan he can't use. This was before even Ty Law, Samuel, Revis, Gilmore...He did it with Everson Walls in 1990 with the Giants (who was one of the best corners in the game with Dallas, who dumped him, and the Giants picked him up that year). You have Gilmore taking away one side of the field, and a safety like DMC providing help on the other side, and it just leaves the Pats linebackers and defensive lineman to focus on the run, and stopping the short passing plays in their tracks. If you look at the seasons the Pats struggled defensively, like 2005 (Asante's 1st year as a semi-starter), 2010 (Kyle Arrington as the best corner), etc., it's almost always when he didn't have that shutdown corner, and it also explains why he takes so many chances on defensive backs in the draft.
I think a legitimate argument could be made that Stephon Gilmore is not only the most talented, but most important player on the Patriots, not named Tom Brady.
I think a legitimate argument could be made that Stephon Gilmore is not only the most talented, but most important player on the Patriots, not named Tom Brady.
I think he’s #2 and there is a pretty decent gap between him and #3. Gilmore is the best CB in the league and has been so consistently good for a long time, dating back to 2018 season. It’s reached the point where I’m legitimately surprised when he gives up a first down completion.
Probably the best FA acquisition of Belichick’s tenure here unless you rate Harrison higher.
The only reason I might slot Gilmore lower than 2, is because I think JC Jackson might not be as huge a drop off as there might be at another position (e.g LG). But I think Gilmore may make up for that difference because reputation may end up allowing him to seem even better than he is. IOW, although JCJ might be able to defend 90% (just pulling a number out of the air) of the passes that SG could, his lack of rep as a shutdown guy, might mean that more targets go his way.
Topic for a separate thread (mods, maybe split this off?), but I’d rate Vrabel higher than Harrison purely based on length of tenure. In terms of talent and being in prime, I think Gilmore rates over any acquisition including Moss.
It's notable that Belichick has never been afraid to splash some money around in the secondary, but he almost never pays retail price for a pass rusher. He can scheme up a pass rush when the secondary is good enough.
So, on the one hand, I think your assessment of Gilmore is right on. On the other, though, even as good as he is, I'm not sure I'd call him indispensable on this team. JC Jackson is obviously not in Gilmore's league, but I think he's a very good player who is underutilized right now because the Pats have so much secondary depth.
Underutilized in what sense? That literally seems like the opposite of how New England is approaching his field time.
In the sense that he's a starting caliber corner who is behind 3 guys who are better/more ready, so he's not an every down guy on this team.
Have you paid attention to the defensive rotations this year? Aside from Gilmore and McCourty no one is really “every down” in the secondary.
He only played special teams.
Snap counts are here, scroll down:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201909220nwe.htm
Jackson is good, but he's no Gilmore. The difference is important because the Patriots don't have what you'd consider a conventionally effective pass rush. They rely on coverage on the back end, letting the front run games up front and pressure later in downs. Jackson is fine, but the D would have to change without Gilmore's lockdown coverage.
I agree he's no Gilmore - and on this team I think Jackson is right where he belongs. Interesting point about the ripple effects, though.
NFL scoring the last five years, per team, per game:
2015: 22.5
2016: 22.8
2017: 21.7
2018: 23.3
2019: 22.3 (three weeks in)
So scoring is down across the league so far, but still, what the Pats have done is pretty remarkable. Let's keep it going vs. Buffalo.
2015: 22.5
2016: 22.8
2017: 21.7
2018: 23.3
2019: 22.3 (three weeks in)
So scoring is down across the league so far, but still, what the Pats have done is pretty remarkable. Let's keep it going vs. Buffalo.
The Patriots alone are responsible for .6 points of that drop. Without the Patriots factored in teams are scoring 22.9.
Does anyone else feel like JMcC's game is a big step up from this time last season? We all remember his awesome Super Bowl PBU on Cooks, but as I recall, not only was there a question of him even making the team coming out of preseason last year, but he also was taking most snaps as a nickel corner/safety for the first half of the year. (I just looked it up, it was only Game 1 where he was limited, playing only 8% of D snaps. Week 2 was 74%, and after that, he was pretty consistently over 80% until the last couple games at which time, JCJ was taking a lot of his snaps).
Nonetheless, I feel like this season, JMcC has been really outstanding.
Nonetheless, I feel like this season, JMcC has been really outstanding.