2019 Off season -- Add a superstar, or subtract one?

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,134
I feel like this was just a messed up year with all the uncertainty, and everyone gets a mulligan. Kyrie wasn't a problem last year. However this offseason shakes out, the guys hear next year will be more certain of their role and things will be smooth again. That's what I tell myself, anyway.
 

Light-Tower-Power

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
8,029
Gordon Hayward may be Gordon Hayward now. Didn't it come out from former teammates that he would have games where he looked like a perennial All-Star and then games when he would just disappear? Seems to fit with what's been happening over the last month. Will it be a little better next season? In all likelihood. But he may never be the guy people think he could be and that he's shown flashes of being.
I went back and looked at his Jazz playoff highlights the other day and he still isn't there. There were moves he was making during those games that he didn't seem capable of making at any point this season. Obviously it's not his fault if he can't get that athleticism back, but all we can do is hope he does.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
16,364
Gordon Hayward may be Gordon Hayward now. Didn't it come out from former teammates that he would have games where he looked like a perennial All-Star and then games when he would just disappear? Seems to fit with what's been happening over the last month. Will it be a little better next season? In all likelihood. But he may never be the guy people think he could be and that he's shown flashes of being.
Would love to see any quotes from former teammates along those lines.

It's certainly true that GH may not get any better; after all, our own resident MD told us that. However, it's also not being overly optimistic to say that he can get better physically - I mean we've watched PG13 (admittedly less severe injury) do it.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 19, 2009
4,286
Would love to see any quotes from former teammates along those lines.

It's certainly true that GH may not get any better; after all, our own resident MD told us that. However, it's also not being overly optimistic to say that he can get better physically - I mean we've watched PG13 (admittedly less severe injury) do it.
Not a critique of his play, but of his character:

“Gordon’s a guy who doesn’t really want to be the man,” Booker told the Tribune. “… I’m not sure he wanted a franchise on his shoulders. Gordon’s a great player, and one of the best players in the league. But I wasn’t really surprised at his choice. I heard the rumors.”
There was also a scathing column from a Utah newspaper that basically said he wasn't going to get a pass in Boston when he failed to deliver like he did in Utah. That might have just been a really upset journalist though.

Booker's comment is slightly more telling, especially if Gordo's gonna be "the man" in Boston once Kyrie leaves, which he might become by default.
 

CreedBratton

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 6, 2009
3,036
Zach Lowe on his podcast with Jackie Mac said in his opinion & has heard from execs that AD will likely go during the draft so the decision to go all in will have to be made before Free Agency begins
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
34,809
Zach Lowe on his podcast with Jackie Mac said in his opinion & has heard from execs that AD will likely go during the draft so the decision to go all in will have to be made before Free Agency begins
This is better anyway. Imagine Kyrie freezing our whole offseason with his cap hold while he figures out what he wants and Ainge is simultaneously chasing AD without knowing who would be playing with him yet.
 

CreedBratton

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 6, 2009
3,036
This is better anyway. Imagine Kyrie freezing our whole offseason with his cap hold while he figures out what he wants and Ainge is simultaneously chasing AD without knowing who would be playing with him yet.
Oh yeah I totally agree there. I guess the only problem is if they trade for AD & Kyrie walks anyway & then AD gets mad & doesn’t resign next year but get AD first & then worry about that stuff.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
9,573
Somewhere
I have nothing against Rozier except for his fucking dribble. It is one of the worst that I've ever seen. I am not a point guard whisperer and it's purely an aesthetic issue but it feels like he isn't going to be beating a lot of lead guards with his 4 foot dribble.
 

Jeff Van GULLY

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,298
Oh yeah I totally agree there. I guess the only problem is if they trade for AD & Kyrie walks anyway & then AD gets mad & doesn’t resign next year but get AD first & then worry about that stuff.
If Kyrie walks and AD is here, trader Danny will bring other talent on to the team.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,302
Oh yeah I totally agree there. I guess the only problem is if they trade for AD & Kyrie walks anyway & then AD gets mad & doesn’t resign next year but get AD first & then worry about that stuff.
I am of the opinion that Ainge has maintained enough of a relationship w/ Kyrie and his agent that Danny will be fairly certain of Kyrie's intentions one way or another prior to trading for Davis.
 

Soxfan in Fla

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2001
7,035
Oh yeah I totally agree there. I guess the only problem is if they trade for AD & Kyrie walks anyway & then AD gets mad & doesn’t resign next year but get AD first & then worry about that stuff.
I have to imagine there will be discussions between DA and the KI camp centered around “if you get AD, I’m definitely resigning” or “it doesn’t matter who you get, I’m gone to play with KD, etc”.
 

128

lurker
May 4, 2019
28
Kyrie is a different cat, so to assume he'll approach this decision rationally would probably be a mistake. But if he's concerned with his legacy in the league, cutting and running in the aftermath of this calamitous series won't do anything to help his.
 
Last edited:

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
28,057
Woj was on ESPN and sounded like he had no clue what Irving was planning to do. Despite all of these quotes from anonymous sources and fan observations about his play/actions that show that he is done as a Celtic, nobody knows anything but Irving and his circle.

Furthermore, its entirely possible that the Celtics manage to convince him to stay (if they want him to) even if he is leaning towards Byriexit.

I know some people have a pretty definitive view of how this will play out (again if you are in this camp, stop posting here and go play the stock market or the lottery) but it feels like things can change quickly.
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
2,179
I think I'm still in the "trade for AD no matter what" camp (ala Kawhi/PG13) if possible, but what can the team realistically acquire after giving up a likely package of Tatum/Rozier/MEM/SAC?

Mike Conley? Do they have the cap space to acquire two highly paid players? I guess they'd need to either trade Hayward or hope Horford opts in and trade him. Maybe something like Horford/Brown to WAS for Beal and then re-sign Morris?

Smart
Beal
Hayward
Morris
AD

Bench filled with vet minimums and nobodies.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,668
Santa Monica, CA
I think I'm still in the "trade for AD no matter what" camp (ala Kawhi/PG13) if possible, but what can the team realistically acquire after giving up a likely package of Tatum/Rozier/MEM/SAC?

Mike Conley? Do they have the cap space to acquire two highly paid players? I guess they'd need to either trade Hayward or hope Horford opts in and trade him. Maybe something like Horford/Brown to WAS for Beal and then re-sign Morris?

Smart
Beal
Hayward
Morris
AD

Bench filled with vet minimums and nobodies.
Swapping out Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, and Horford for AD and Beal would not be great shakes.

It seems like you either reshuffle the pieces around Kyrie (up to a possible AD trade) or you rebuild around the young guys and the draft picks.
 

Marbleheader

Dope
Dope
Sep 27, 2004
10,225
Zach Lowe on his podcast with Jackie Mac said in his opinion & has heard from execs that AD will likely go during the draft so the decision to go all in will have to be made before Free Agency begins
Doesn't that eliminate the Celtics then? They can't trade for him until July 1, which is why they couldn't deal for him at the deadline.Why would NO want to keep the Celtics out of the bidding?
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,302
Doesn't that eliminate the Celtics then? They can't trade for him until July 1, which is why they couldn't deal for him at the deadline.Why would NO want to keep the Celtics out of the bidding?
I believe they could execute a "wink/nod" style trade where Ainge drafts for NO and then completes the deal on 7/1. There's nothing in the rules to prevent that.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,554
Doesn't that eliminate the Celtics then? They can't trade for him until July 1, which is why they couldn't deal for him at the deadline.Why would NO want to keep the Celtics out of the bidding?
Because Griffin might feel better making a deal before Irving walks on Boston, which would reduce Davis' trade value to standard NBA rental rates. If Irving leaves, Boston can't empty the larder for Davis (because when Davis walks the Celtics would be in Miami's unenviable position of being the tenth best team in the east), and no one else will either, knowing that Davis has his heart set on the Space Jam reboot.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,169
Doesn't that eliminate the Celtics then? They can't trade for him until July 1, which is why they couldn't deal for him at the deadline.Why would NO want to keep the Celtics out of the bidding?
You could agree on the deal and then call it in at the start of the new league year. This happens all the times with trades on draft night that aren't consummated until July.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
Rozier has showed in his starts both last season, in the playoffs, and this year that he is a very capable lead guard in this league and will be starting somewhere next year...….without that confidence and swagger he'd never be able to have been as successful as he was as a starter. He clearly wasn't ready to play a backup PG/backup combo guard role after last seasons success while entering a contract year. I don't see where he is off point at all in saying he sacrificed more than anyone on the team.....you can sense his frustration just from reading those quotes.
Completely disagree.

Terry Rozier was by far the worst rotational player on the Celtics this season according to the advanced off/def metrics this season. He was the only net negative rotational player.
103.9 / 105.2 / -1.2

He sacrificed minutes because he was terrible all season long. If he played well, he would have received more minutes. Brad was dying to play small ball and Terry rarely delivered.

Rozier has been a net negative for 3 of 4 seasons, while the team has been a net positive every season. His breakout season, 2017-18, he ranked 8th out of 9 Celtic rotational players in net off/def rating (only ahead of MaMo).

IMHO any team that pays Terry more then Marcus Smart will regret that contract pretty quickly. A PG that is ball movement challenged will struggle in the pace n space era. I could easily name 35 PGs I'd rather have on my team next season than the Celtics 3rd string PG, Terry Rozier. I don't see him starting for an NBA team next season, with many draft pick/free agent PGs available.

https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular Season

https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season
 
Last edited:

gedman211

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2016
2,409
Conley would be a nice fit with AD. But even with the chemistry implosion we just saw, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that a team built around Kyrie and AD isn't the best conceivable option. But them's two temperamental cats, so it could blow up famously.
Of course, in the immediate aftermath of the debacle I just witnessed, my irrational response is to fire everyone except Marcus Smart.
 

lars10

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
5,210
Rozier has showed in his starts both last season, in the playoffs, and this year that he is a very capable lead guard in this league and will be starting somewhere next year...….without that confidence and swagger he'd never be able to have been as successful as he was as a starter. He clearly wasn't ready to play a backup PG/backup combo guard role after last seasons success while entering a contract year. I don't see where he is off point at all in saying he sacrificed more than anyone on the team.....you can sense his frustration just from reading those quotes.
I think he did sacrifice a lot dand maybe it is a function of having to come off the bench all season, when he did start he did play better. Kyrie and him on the floor though was a bad mix... but doesn't it also seem that Rozier is more of an off guard than a point guard? I don't feel like he's a particularly special passer or that he ran the offense all that well. He did crash the boards a lot and seemed to play decent D. Perhaps I'm being overly harsh, but I do think he needs to mature a bit and work on his shooting.

He had the worst fg% out of anyone on the team other than PJ Dozier, 9th best 3 point % and he tried the second most/100 possessions right behind Kyrie, worst 2 point % with the 8th most FGA on the team. He did well on the D boards especially since he played 22mpg which was 9th on the team (really 8th since Hunter played one game). His FT% was 9th best... generally all of his numbers have him about the worst of all the starters/bench players that got significant playing time.

So even though he may think he's a starter and a top PG.. his numbers this year didn't show it. Perhaps he's just not a bench player and needs to start all the time to be better.. I guess we'll see next year, but I think part of the problem of this team was players like Rozier and Morris refusing to mould themselves into the team or looking to adjust how they played or want to play.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,096
There's probably another million or two I'm missing. That leaves them with about $31-33M of cap space, which is just enough for max contract. And that assumes that Kyrie, Horford, Morris, Baynes, Rozier, Theis, Wannamaker and Gibson all leave. And I believe they would also have to renounce the MLE and Bi-annual exceptions to get there, and possibly their trade exceptions as well. But it's unclear how that slot would really help him, as the roster would consist of an injured veteran and a bunch of young players, deep reserves and minimum salary players.
This is correct. Easy rule of thumb is exceptions are for teams over the cap. If you go under the cap at any point during a season to sign a player, you waive all of your exceptions. You can gain a room exception if once you go under the cap you add enough salary to be capped out again.

I'm with the crowd that says forget an AD deal if Kyrie walks. The whole point to getting AD is hoping he'll be willing to re-sign with you to play with Kyrie. Don't see a whole lot of sense to trading Tatum+ to get AD if you don't have the Kyrie carrot to entice him to stay.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
16,364
So even though he may think he's a starter and a top PG.. his numbers this year didn't show it. Perhaps he's just not a bench player and needs to start all the time to be better.
Sigh.

Everyone on this team thought they were better than they are. Except Al.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,712
around the way
Terry Rozier has four years in the league and was a good starting guard for about 20 games a year ago. He may get paid, but anyone who thinks that he's a good player needs to pull out more evidence than those 20 games. He has all the negatives that Kyrie brings but without most of the positives. He has no vision, has never once shot 40% from the field for a season, and he's a defensive liability.

Despite Kyrie playing terribly for these four games, he has elite offensive skills. The best player on the team is not the problem.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
Terry Rozier has four years in the league and was a good starting guard for about 20 games a year ago. He may get paid, but anyone who thinks that he's a good player needs to pull out more evidence than those 20 games. He has all the negatives that Kyrie brings but without most of the positives. He has no vision, has never once shot 40% from the field for a season, and he's a defensive liability.

Despite Kyrie playing terribly for these four games, he has elite offensive skills. The best player on the team is not the problem.
Rozier isn't getting paid. He should get even less of a response from the league then Marcus Smart got last Summer.
He'd be a 2nd or 3rd string PG on ALL of the playoff teams and a back-up on most lottery teams. Since he clearly despises the bench, teams would be wise to veer away from him (as should the Celtics).
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
1,396
He sacrificed minutes because he was terrible all season long. If he played well, he would have received more minutes. Brad was dying to play small ball and Terry rarely delivered.
Yeah, it's kind of funny to read Rozier bitching about all these guys who had attitudes and thought they were better than they were and were playing for contracts, then in the next breath, he says he's a top point guard in the league. I don't think his body of work screams "top point guard in the league." He's too streaky a shooter for one. He's still an unpredictable finisher. And he's not a great pass-first guard.
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
8,668
Santa Monica, CA
"Not a great pass first guard" is way understating things. He has almost zero court vision.

He has some nice skills that make him an effective change of pace guy off the bench. He does compete and he can get to the rim, so he can be a useful player, but he's not a starting PG for a good team.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
1,431
Is this is the absolutely most pessimistic possible take ever?
Terry Rozier has four years in the league and was a good starting guard for about 20 games a year ago. He may get paid, but anyone who thinks that he's a good player needs to pull out more evidence than those 20 games. He has all the negatives that Kyrie brings but without most of the positives. He has no vision, has never once shot 40% from the field for a season, and he's a defensive liability.
I think this sells short his entire season last year. He shot 38% from 3, and had positive advanced stats numbers for the entire season. He's always had great assist to turnover numbers and rebounding numbers. This year he was a disaster no doubt, but he's got at least one full year showing he can be a solid NBA guard.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,712
around the way
I think this sells short his entire season last year. He shot 38% from 3, and had positive advanced stats numbers for the entire season. He's always had great assist to turnover numbers and rebounding numbers. This year he was a disaster no doubt, but he's got at least one full year showing he can be a solid NBA guard.
That's the Rozier family take. He's an 8th man on a good team and doesn't want that role. If he starts playing defense again, he could prove to be a starter on some teams. He does take good care of the ball. But he has shitty vision. He's a severly undersized 2 who doesn't shoot great in an undersized 1's body.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
449
Brooklyn by way of Orono
That's the Rozier family take. He's an 8th man on a good team and doesn't want that role. If he starts playing defense again, he could prove to be a starter on some teams. He does take good care of the ball. But he has shitty vision. He's a severly undersized 2 who doesn't shoot great in an undersized 1's body.
Perfect. Maybe he’s recoverable but he seems to have gotten the idea he’s an elite scorer that can mail it in on D, plus he just spent a year worshipping at the church of hero ball. Pass.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
If Kyrie walks, hence AD isn't coming, I'd expect CBS to re-take the reigns on this team (which felt out of control on/off the court all season). With the focus returning to defense, ball movement, discipline & accountability.

coming back? Horford, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Baynes, TL, Semi, Yabu

1. Add a couple of savvy veteran role players.
2. Draft well and develop.
3. Trust Tatum and Brown will develop next season
4. Trust that Hayward will heal.
5. Trust CBS will return to being one of the best coaches in the game.

Hand wringing about 1st round exits and not making the playoffs next season, because Kyrie walks, is beyond premature/hot takey. I trust Ainge/Zarren have contingency plans for that happening. Let one of the best front offices in the game assess what happened this season and how to react. They are not crippled by bad contracts (w/Gordon healing), have talented young players and have plenty of draft picks. Lots of positives, I see a glass half full with this team.

As far as the other EC teams, they all have their own issues (Kawhi walking, Lowry aging, Embiid injury prone, Simmons shooting, Oladipo coming back from a major injury, Bucks being dependent on one player, Nets overachieving one year, Heat bad contracts galore). Let's see what happens over the next 6 months before we start seeding the 2020 EC playoffs.
PLAN B (w/no Kyrie and AD)
The 2 role-playing vets the Celtics should add:
1. Patrick Beverly
2. Dewayne Dedmon

Both defend, can shoot the 3, no attitude and are fine coming off the bench.

start: Baynes, Horford, Tatum, Brown, Smart
bench: Hayward, Beverly, Dedmon, Semi, TL, Wanamaker, Yabu, Dozier, 2 draft picks (deal a 2019 1st rounder & Yabu for talent)

This is by far the best defensive team Brad has had. No more little guards running wild on the C's. Rim/lane is clogged.

Run the offense through Hayward/Horford at the top. Ball movement galore!
No more pound and ground hero ball (bye Ky, Terry and MaMo)

Potentially use the Celtics 2020 1st round pick to add talent mid-season from a tanker.

This team wins more games and goes further than the 2018-19 Celtics. Loads of fun to cheer for. Most importantly the Celtics get to fully exploit Brown (22) and Tatum's (21) potential next year and many years to come.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
31,084
PLAN B (w/no Kyrie and AD)
The 2 role-playing vets the Celtics should add:
1. Patrick Beverly
2. Dewayne Dedmon

Both defend, can shoot the 3, no attitude and are fine coming off the bench.

start: Baynes, Horford, Tatum, Brown, Smart
bench: Hayward, Beverly, Dedmon, Semi, TL, Wanamaker, Yabu, Dozier, 2 draft picks (deal a 2019 1st rounder & Yabu for talent)

This is by far the best defensive team Brad has had. No more little guards running wild on the C's. Rim/lane is clogged.

Run the offense through Hayward/Horford at the top. Ball movement galore!
No more pound and ground hero ball (bye Ky, Terry and MaMo)

Potentially use the Celtics 2020 1st round pick to add talent mid-season from a tanker.

This team wins more games and goes further than the 2018-19 Celtics. Loads of fun to cheer for. Most importantly the Celtics get to fully exploit Brown (22) and Tatum's (21) potential next year and many years to come.
That team would probably average about 70 ppg.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
That team would probably average about 70 ppg.
yep, I knew I'd get that response. Predictable. Because MaMo/Rozier's ground and pound is offensively efficient, right? Guess its hopeless if Kyrie leaves, we'll never score/win again.

Is there any chance Hayward heals? or Tatum and Brown continue to mature, improve and play better?
Last season, Beverly shot 39.7% and Dedmon 38.2% from 3 vs MaMo 37.5% and Rozier 35.3%. Beverly/Dedmon are massive defensive upgrades from MaMo/Rozier.

Brown/Tatum averaged 18/18.5ppg over 19 games for the 2017-18 playoff Celtics. I think they turn into >20ppg scorers with no Kyrie.

The Celtics will need to turn back to defense, ball movement and physicality in order to win under CBS.

Feel free to offer your Plan B if Kyrie/AD take their talents elsewhere...
 
Last edited:

Light-Tower-Power

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
8,029
I like the thought but yeah, that team is maybe a hair better than the Oladipo-less Pacers that got swept in the first round by this crappy Celtics team. Can't win in the NBA without a star.
 

DrewDawg

Dorito Dink
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
34,085
They know this. If Kyrie leaves and they don’t go after AD then they think Tatum can make the leap. Which most of this board thought he could last year.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
31,084
yep, I knew I'd get that response. Predictable. Because MaMo/Rozier's ground and pound is offensively efficient, right? Guess its hopeless if Kyrie leaves, we'll never score/win again.

Is there any chance Hayward heals? or Tatum and Brown continue to mature, improve and play better?
Last season, Beverly shot 39.7% and Dedmon 38.2% from 3 vs MaMo 37.5% and Rozier 35.3%. Beverly/Dedmon are massive defensive upgrades from MaMo/Rozier.

Brown/Tatum averaged 18/18.5ppg over 19 games for the 2017-18 playoff Celtics. I think they turn into >20ppg scorers with no Kyrie.

The Celtics will need to turn back to defense, ball movement and physicality in order to win under CBS.

Feel free to offer your Plan B if Kyrie/AD take their talents elsewhere...
I mean, I’m not alone here. It’s not an attack on you. Simple reality is that if we’re in a no Ky/AD situation, almost none of the scenarios will be appealing to me.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
I mean, I’m not alone here. It’s not an attack on you. Simple reality is that if we’re in a no Ky/AD situation, almost none of the scenarios will be appealing to me.
that's cool, agreed. I meant your response wasn't entirely unexpected from the board. Losing Kyrie for nothing stinks. Danny can't be expected to replace a top 10 offensive player in one off-season. I'd expect he'll take a longer view.

For next season, Brad/Ainge would be banking on Beverly/Dedmon > MaMo/Rozier AND some of Kyrie's offense being picked up by Hayward, Brown & Tatum.

BUT it would be more of a 2021 and beyond move, since you would be going All-In on Tatum/Brown and keeping/developing draft picks. Optimistically I think CBS could turn both Brown/Tatum into perennial All-Stars (heck he turned IT into an MVP candidate/multiple All-Star).

While 2018-19 will probably be remembered for disharmony, misplaced egos and Kyrie's 4 game playoff meltdown. If I was to narrow down their biggest failing it was they could never get a big defensive STOP in high leverage 2nd half situations. I'd like to see the 2019-20 Celtics return to a defense-first group.
 
Last edited:

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
31,084
that's cool, agreed. I meant your response wasn't entirely unexpected from the board. Losing Kyrie for nothing stinks. Danny can't be expected to replace a top 10 offensive player in one off-season. I'd expect he'll take a longer view.

For next season, Brad/Ainge would be banking on Beverly/Dedmon > MaMo/Rozier AND some of Kyrie's offense being picked up by Hayward, Brown & Tatum.

BUT it would be more of a 2021 and beyond move, since you would be going All-In on Tatum/Brown and keeping/developing draft picks.

While 2018-19 will probably be remembered for disharmony, misplaced egos and Kyrie's 4 game playoff meltdown. If I was to narrow down their biggest failing it was they could never get a big defensive STOP in high leverage 2nd half situations. I'd like to see the 2019-20 Celtics return to a defense first group.
Truthfully, I think they’ll have no choice but to return to a defense-first squad. We’re probably headed back to being a scrappy upstart with still some upside based on the development of Tatum, Brown, Hayward, TL, and the 2019 picks.

Not a great place to be for championship aspiration but should be more appealing to watch.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
That team is full of role players and without a star. It will win 40 games max.
so you see a 2014-15 Celtic team that went 40-42?

Bradley, Zeller, Turner, Bass, Sullinger had the most starts for that group. That had huge player turnover during the season.

Call me crazy but I have more confidence in Horford, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Baynes etc

I'm a huge Brad Stevens fan, but he had an awful 2018-19 (like Brown did the first 8 weeks). I expect he'll have more control/influence over next years team.
 
Last edited:

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
I like the thought but yeah, that team is maybe a hair better than the Oladipo-less Pacers that got swept in the first round by this crappy Celtics team. Can't win in the NBA without a star.
It wouldn't shock me to see Tatum or Brown have a 2017-18 Oladipo leap next season.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
3,930
Lisbon, PT
so you see a 2014-15 Celtic team that went 40-42?

Bradley, Zeller, Turner, Bass, Sullinger had the most starts for that group. That had huge player turnover during the season.

Call me crazy but I have more confidence in Horford, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Baynes etc

I'm a huge Brad Stevens fan, but he had an awful 2018-19 (like Brown did the first 8 weeks). I expect he'd have more control/influence over next years team.
That 2019-2020 Celtics team gets way more than 40 wins, simply because they’d be playing great D and focusing a lot more on offensive execution.

The best comp for that group would be Utah East imo. They’d be tough, in that 50 win range, gimmick some points out from doing stuff hard on offense, and be 1-2 young guy leaps away from a fringe contender.

Of course, as we saw with Utah West, sometimes those leaps never happen, and you’re stuck. But I think this recent Durant in GSW era has skewed our perception of what it takes to be a contender. A lot more teams are going to be a lot closer once that era ends.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
2,158
Saint Paul, MN
Dedmon made 7 million last year. Beverley made 5 million. Celtics will only have the taxpayer MLE of 5.5 million and the bi-annual of 3.5 million. Not sure how they would be able to sign both those guys
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
38,251
deep inside Guido territory
so you see a 2014-15 Celtic team that went 40-42?

Bradley, Zeller, Turner, Bass, Sullinger had the most starts for that group. That had huge player turnover during the season.

Call me crazy but I have more confidence in Horford, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Baynes etc

I'm a huge Brad Stevens fan, but he had an awful 2018-19 (like Brown did the first 8 weeks). I expect he'll have more control/influence over next years team.
The East is in my opinion much better than it’s been in years going forward especially if Kahwi and Butler stay where they are. Milwaukee, Toronto, Philly would clearly be better and Indiana with Oladipo is better. What if the Knicks add Kyrie, Durant, keep Knox and not trade him for AD and get Zion or Morant? They’d be better. Then you’ll be thrown in a group with Orlando, Brooklyn, and Detroit. That’s 40-45 win territory and in purgatory. I was a bit hyperbolic with 40 max.

I’m not convinced at all that Kyrie will leave so hopefully this never comes to fruition.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
Dedmon made 7 million last year. Beverley made 5 million. Celtics will only have the taxpayer MLE of 5.5 million and the bi-annual of 3.5 million. Not sure how they would be able to sign both those guys
They are older (30/31), demand for bigs (Dedmon) is low and hope they get lost in the hoopla of the big name FA. We'll know by July 2nd of our situation and showing those guys some immediate love may help. Getting Beverly is of more interest to me, watching him guard Kyrie 4x next season would be worth the $5.5MM alone.

PLUS defense doesn't pay like flashy offensive #s, at least that's what MaMo's agent told me...:)
 
Last edited:

tbrown_01923

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2006
405
+1 on Beverly - I mentioned him in one of these threads and would love to see what the D would look like with him teamed with Smart in the backcourt. Without adding any superstars I will be hoping for a team that is fun to root for as they pivot their strategy - i think adding beverly might make them real pests on D.
 

JCizzle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2006
9,499
+1 on Beverly - I mentioned him in one of these threads and would love to see what the D would look like with him teamed with Smart in the backcourt. Without adding any superstars I will be hoping for a team that is fun to root for as they pivot their strategy - i think adding beverly might make them real pests on D.
Small guards killed us since Smart is a bit too big and slow to handle them. I think he'd be a good fit because of that.

That said, offense is almost always going to win out. We need some scoring too