2019 Off season -- Add a superstar, or subtract one?

TripleOT

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I didn't think we'd be in the Celtics' off season this early in May, especially after last year's shorthanded deep run in the playoffs. The most unlikable team in the Brad Stevens era is now history, and after standing pat last season, Danny Ainge will be looking at a volatile off season.

Draft lottery -- will there be three first round picks or four, and will the Celtics get incredibly lucky? Kyrie decision. Davis trade and the hint for a second superstar. AL's option. Morris unrestricted free agency. Rozier restricted free agency. Baynes option. Haywood full recovery and his market value, if any, Brown extension. Tatum as trade bait after not building off an amazing rookie season.

I'm guessing that Kyrie forces Ainge to do a teardown by bouncing in free agency.
 
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let the free agents walk, build around Brown, Tatum and Haywood and use all 3 picks. Let's build a true team through the draft and bring back the fun of 2017-2018 without Kyrie
 

luckiestman

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What is the money if Kyrie walks and Al opts out?


I’m fine with Smart, Brown, Tatum, and seeing if the Gimp gets better.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Shrewsberry leaving the team. Not sure how significant he is as a coach. Anyone have insight?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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let the free agents walk, build around Brown, Tatum and Haywood and use all 3 picks. Let's build a true team through the draft and bring back the fun of 2017-2018 without Kyrie
Scrapping into the playoffs with a ragtag roster in the middle of a rebuild was fun. Fighting into the playoffs led by the dynamic but deeply flawed IT4 was fun. Unexpectedly plowing into the playoffs led by unexpected performances by young players was fun.

Losing your best scorer and snagging a sixth to eighth seed and getting bounced in the first round isn't fun.

The Bucks will be good again next year, the Sixers will be good too and if Toronto can retain Leonard, they will be as good if not better. Then you add in the Nets who will likely make a leap, Indiana, Orlando, Miami, Charlotte and even Atlanta to the mix. There exists a scenario where your roster (Horford, Hayward, Brown and Tatum) doesn't even get to the postseason.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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What is the money if Kyrie walks and Al opts out?


I’m fine with Smart, Brown, Tatum, and seeing if the Gimp gets better.
Not enough to sign a max player even if Al leaves once you factor in draft picks, unless I’m off with my math, which I may be.
 

amfox1

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1. Kyrie - free agent and noncommittal about returning
a. Celtics can offer him 5/190, other teams 4/141
b. If Kyrie returns, Ainge presumably goes all-in for AD
c. If Kyrie leaves (as I expect he will), I don't expect a trade for AD.

2. Horford - has a $30mm opt-in and he says he wants to return
a. Does Danny extend Horford (33 next year) to lower to cap hit?

3. Morris - free agent and he says he wants to return
a. Is he worth signing and at what price? Probably depends on Kyrie and Horford.

4. Rozier - RFA and he definitely wants out

5. Tatum - has two more years and is trade chip #1 for an AD trade.

6. Brown - has one more year and is due for an extension
a. Does Danny want to extend him? I do.

7. Everyone else.
a. Ojeleye has a contract that becomes guaranteed on July 1. I assume it will happen.
b. Baynes has a player option for $5.5mm, but I assume he'll test the market.
c. Theis, Wanamaker and Gibson are RFAs.

Celtics draft 14*, 20, 22 and 52. (*subject to the lottery; could also get MEM's pick, if 9 or below)
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Scrapping into the playoffs with a ragtag roster in the middle of a rebuild was fun. Fighting into the playoffs led by the dynamic but deeply flawed IT4 was fun. Unexpectedly plowing into the playoffs led by unexpected performances by young players was fun.

Losing your best scorer and snagging a sixth to eighth seed and getting bounced in the first round isn't fun.

The Bucks will be good again next year, the Sixers will be good too and if Toronto can retain Leonard, they will be as good if not better. Then you add in the Nets who will likely make a leap, Indiana, Orlando, Miami, Charlotte and even Atlanta to the mix. There exists a scenario where your roster (Horford, Hayward, Brown and Tatum) doesn't even get to the postseason.
This season was less fun than just about any other scenario I can imagine. I had more fun watching them win 16 games in '06-'07.

He runs the defense and was Tatum’s primary “position” coach.
Addition by subtraction x2.
 

lars10

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Scrapping into the playoffs with a ragtag roster in the middle of a rebuild was fun. Fighting into the playoffs led by the dynamic but deeply flawed IT4 was fun. Unexpectedly plowing into the playoffs led by unexpected performances by young players was fun.

Losing your best scorer and snagging a sixth to eighth seed and getting bounced in the first round isn't fun.

The Bucks will be good again next year, the Sixers will be good too and if Toronto can retain Leonard, they will be as good if not better. Then you add in the Nets who will likely make a leap, Indiana, Orlando, Miami, Charlotte and even Atlanta to the mix. There exists a scenario where your roster (Horford, Hayward, Brown and Tatum) doesn't even get to the postseason.
Is this is the absolutely most pessimistic possible take ever?
 

lars10

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He runs the defense and was Tatum’s primary “position” coach.
Tatum took a fairly major step back this year...and the defense seemed to be all over the place this year.. not that this was his fault, but I wonder if Tatum will take a turn back to showing more promise again next year with another off season under his belt.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Is this is the absolutely most pessimistic possible take ever?
I don't think so - I was simply making the point that going back to a scrappy team that plays above its head after all the promise (not performance) of this roster is going to be different/tougher than some think. This team needs to upgrade talent - not lose it.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Scrapping into the playoffs with a ragtag roster in the middle of a rebuild was fun. Fighting into the playoffs led by the dynamic but deeply flawed IT4 was fun. Unexpectedly plowing into the playoffs led by unexpected performances by young players was fun.

Losing your best scorer and snagging a sixth to eighth seed and getting bounced in the first round isn't fun.

The Bucks will be good again next year, the Sixers will be good too and if Toronto can retain Leonard, they will be as good if not better. Then you add in the Nets who will likely make a leap, Indiana, Orlando, Miami, Charlotte and even Atlanta to the mix. There exists a scenario where your roster (Horford, Hayward, Brown and Tatum) doesn't even get to the postseason.
There is definitely not a scenario where the Celtics with those 4 along with Smart do not make the playoffs in the east.
 

Toe Nash

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Scrapping into the playoffs with a ragtag roster in the middle of a rebuild was fun. Fighting into the playoffs led by the dynamic but deeply flawed IT4 was fun. Unexpectedly plowing into the playoffs led by unexpected performances by young players was fun.

Losing your best scorer and snagging a sixth to eighth seed and getting bounced in the first round isn't fun.

The Bucks will be good again next year, the Sixers will be good too and if Toronto can retain Leonard, they will be as good if not better. Then you add in the Nets who will likely make a leap, Indiana, Orlando, Miami, Charlotte and even Atlanta to the mix. There exists a scenario where your roster (Horford, Hayward, Brown and Tatum) doesn't even get to the postseason.
I completely disagree with this. I don't know if it's the best path for the team to follow but watching the young guys (plus some NEW young guys) develop will absolutely be fun, so long as they play like a team.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Tatum took a fairly major step back this year...and the defense seemed to be all over the place this year.. not that this was his fault, but I wonder if Tatum will take a turn back to showing more promise again next year with another off season under his belt.
JT did not take a major step back. The most pessimistic view is that he didn't step forward. There are a lot of reasons for that I'm sure, many of which we will never know.
 

Jimbodandy

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JT did not take a major step back. The most pessimistic view is that he didn't step forward. There are a lot of reasons for that I'm sure, many of which we will never know.
Yeah. The only step back that Tatum took was not being 19 anymore. He didn't take a step forward, and his 3pt ball luck normalized. Shitloads of upside with him still.

Danny needs to make a ton of decisions, and there are some players making decisions for him. He's a smart guy with tons of assets with which to work. Hopefully he invests the appropriate amount of thought into more optimal roster construction. Chemistry was ass this year.
 

JCizzle

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I want Rondo back. He might be a dick, but at least he learned to do that from KG and not Kobe. He won't be shy about calling people on their bullshit and I think the locker room needs that.
 

benhogan

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If Kyrie walks, hence AD isn't coming, I'd expect CBS to re-take the reigns on this team (which felt out of control on/off the court all season). With the focus returning to defense, ball movement, discipline & accountability.

coming back? Horford, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Baynes, TL, Semi, Yabu

1. Add a couple of savvy veteran role players.
2. Draft well and develop.
3. Trust Tatum and Brown will develop next season
4. Trust that Hayward will heal.
5. Trust CBS will return to being one of the best coaches in the game.

Hand wringing about 1st round exits and not making the playoffs next season, because Kyrie walks, is beyond premature/hot takey. I trust Ainge/Zarren have contingency plans for that happening. Let one of the best front offices in the game assess what happened this season and how to react. They are not crippled by bad contracts (w/Gordon healing), have talented young players and have plenty of draft picks. Lots of positives, I see a glass half full with this team.

As far as the other EC teams, they all have their own issues (Kawhi walking, Lowry aging, Embiid injury prone, Simmons shooting, Oladipo coming back from a major injury, Bucks being dependent on one player, Nets overachieving one year, Heat bad contracts galore). Let's see what happens over the next 6 months before we start seeding the 2020 EC playoffs.
 
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BaseballJones

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There are so many directions the Celtics could go. I think the preferred direction would be:

- Trade Tatum, picks, and enough salary filler (not sure how they do this...running it through the NBA trade machine I ended up dealing Tatum, Smart, and Baynes...obviously add the picks), for Anthony Davis.
- Re-sign Kyrie. Roll with a lineup of Davis, Horford, Hayward, Brown, and Kyrie. That's one hell of a group, assuming Kyrie gets his head out of his ass and Hayward improves with another year separated from his injury. I made the argument in another thread that Kyrie really is a great Robin and not a good Batman. Well, this gives the Celtics a great Batman (Davis) and Kyrie reverts back to the role he's best at. Clearly, he's not capable of being the Batman on a championship team.
- Say goodbye to Rozier. Morris goes away too. They'd need to add some pieces in there, but this group represents a dynamic core. Hope TimeLord develops, and the same for Semi.
- Pick up a few cheap veterans to fill in the gaps. Hope they all love the experience and Davis decides he wants IN - at that point nobody would be able to offer Davis more money, and at that point Kyrie would have to be locked in.


But they could also lose Kyrie this offseason. If so, then it likely means no AD and I think they just roll with Horford, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Baynes, and the picks they'll have this year. At this point they don't know what picks they'll end up with (I get so confused over that whole process of conveying picks, etc.), and that obviously makes a difference.


I do wonder if there's a scenario where they trade for AD and lose Kyrie anyway, and hope that AD stays. He might. If they can somehow get a useful veteran PG and have as their core AD, Horford, Brown, Hayward, and a PG, that might be good enough to do some real damage. Especially if Brown takes the leap (not having Kyrie and not losing shots to Tatum might really help Brown's development) and Hayward returns strong next year.
 

DrewDawg

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Morris and Horford both had postgame quotes about how they really enjoy Boston and want to stay.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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There is definitely not a scenario where the Celtics with those 4 along with Smart do not make the playoffs in the east.
To be clear I didn't say they definitely wouldn't make the playoffs. I said there is a scenario where they don't. Nobody can definitely say anything about the future of the team - if you have that power, its wasted here with us!

Also, our collective ability to project outcomes for this team is pretty poor as evidenced by the outcome of this series. If others feel differently more power to them but I don't feel confident in making any more definitive predictions.
 

JCizzle

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Morris and Horford both had postgame quotes about how they really enjoy Boston and want to stay.
Really don't need Morris back stealing shots from Tatum and Brown. I'd rather bring in guys that are willing to actually pass the ball from time to time.
 

DrewDawg

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Really don't need Morris back stealing shots from Tatum and Brown. I'd rather bring in guys that are willing to actually pass the ball from time to time.
Sure, I agree. It was nice to hear though.

I think *if* Kyrie leaves we're gonna end up hearing some interesting stories.

As disappointing as this season was, I think next year is still going to be fun as we're either running it back with the "kids" or we're gonna have AD in town.
 

Strike4

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Disappointment with this season aside, I think you keep Kyrie if he'll stay and play out the AD scenarios from there. He's too good a player to let go in the wake of a lost season. Trimming the understorey of Rozier, Morris, etc. will allow Brown and Tatum to grow, and then we'll have a new big three/four. Kyrie won't have to be the top dog and can flourish is a slightly less glaring role.
 

DrewDawg

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Disappointment with this aside, I think you keep Kyrie if he'll stay and play out the AD scenarios from there. He's too good a player to let go in the wake of a lost season. Trimming the understorey of Rozier, Morris, etc. will allow Brown and Tatum to grow, and then we'll have a new big three/four. Kyrie won't have to be the top dog and can flourish is a slightly less glaring role.
Don't be rational.

But yes, if this team loses Tatum or Brown and likely Rozier if Kyrie stays, and brings in AD, then the "headaches" of dealing with the youngsters goes away.

I still have no idea what I want, except Hayward to have a great offseason.
 

Bad Penny

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If Kyrie walks, hence AD isn't coming, I'd expect CBS to re-take the reigns on this team (which felt out of control on/off the court all season). With the focus returning to defense, ball movement, discipline & accountability.

coming back? Horford, Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Baynes, TL, Semi, Yabu

1. Add a couple of savvy veteran role players.
2. Draft well and develop.
3. Trust Tatum and Brown will develop next season
4. Trust that Hayward will heal.
5. Trust CBS will return to being one of the best coaches in the game.

Hand wringing about 1st round exits and not making the playoffs next season, because Kyrie walks, is beyond premature/hot takey. I trust Ainge/Zarren have contingency plans for that happening. Let one of the best front offices in the game access what happened this season and how to react. They are not crippled by bad contracts (w/Gordon healing), have talented young players and have plenty of draft picks. Lots of positives, I see a glass half full with this team.

As far as the other EC teams, they all have their own issues (Kawhi walking, Lowry aging, Embiid injury prone, Simmons shooting, Oladipo coming back from a major injury, Bucks being dependent on one player, Nets overachieving one year, Heat bad contracts galore). Let's see what happens over the next 6 months before we start seeding the 2020 EC playoffs.
I agree with absolutely everything you wrote. The Celtics FO is as good as any in the game, they will move forward, with or without #11.
 

Captaincoop

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Kyrie is gone. He just spent four games letting us know, in case we weren't sure.

It would have been great if the Kyrie/AD superteam concept had worked, but moving on with the young guys, a solid vet in Al, and four swings at finding some additional young talent is not a disaster in any way.

And if that means they lose in the first round next year, it will still be 10x more fun to watch than what we just endured with Kyrie.

Good riddance. I look forward to him being the biggest Boston sports villain since Roger Clemens when he returns with the Knicks.
 

lexrageorge

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I am by no means an expert, but by looking at Spotrac and Larry Coon's FAQ, I surmise the following regarding the Celtics cap situation:

Players under contract:
Hayward ($32.7M)
Smart ($12M)
Tatum ($7.8M)
Brown ($6.5M)
Yabu ($3.1M)
Williams ($1.9M)
Semi ($1.6M non-guaranteed, but doesn't really matter that much for this calculation either way).

Sub-Total: $65.6

Assuming 3 first round (14/20/22) and 1 second round draft pick (no hold), they will need ~$8.5M for draft pick holds. Obviously, the draft lottery results will impact this calculation; we'll know more in 5 days where they stand.

As the above includes only 10 guaranteed players, they need about $1.8M in additional cap more to meet the 12 player minimum for salary cap purposes.

Total: ~$76M.

There's probably another million or two I'm missing. That leaves them with about $31-33M of cap space, which is just enough for max contract. And that assumes that Kyrie, Horford, Morris, Baynes, Rozier, Theis, Wannamaker and Gibson all leave. And I believe they would also have to renounce the MLE and Bi-annual exceptions to get there, and possibly their trade exceptions as well. But it's unclear how that slot would really help him, as the roster would consist of an injured veteran and a bunch of young players, deep reserves and minimum salary players.

Horford's saying he wants to be back is not surprising; he's got 30M reasons to return, and would probably net more via a longer term, more cap-friendly deal that may be tough to match elsewhere. So I'm thinking he will be back for 2 more seasons at say $25M each. Morris' comments surprise me, and I am not convinced he is the best fit. But resigning him may free up Ainge to use the MLE to get a pure shooter type player. Not sure who's available to fit that, and there probably would be some additional salary tweaking needed to be able to use the full MLE. Too bad it's not the NFL where Ainge could pull a Belichick and trade out of the first round altogether. As for Rozier, given the fact that keeping both Morris and Rozier would put them above the taxpayer apron, I do not believe that they would be able to keep both, barring a sign-and-trade as part of a bigger package (unlikely). And they still need a backup big; I think they move on from Baynes, and neither Yabu nor Williams appear to be ready, and I think Baynes will be looking at bigger money than $5M.

IMO, I think we need to see how the lottery shakes out, as there are still too many figurative and literal balls in the air at this point to put a bead on next season's roster.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Biggest question for me this offseason is if with a more normal offseason and months of training can Gordon Hayward become Gordon Hayward again. If he can't there's nothing Danny or Brad can do to make this team a contender. Even if Kyrie stays (yuck) and Danny trades for AD I don't think it would be enough without Hayward being back to his old self.

Edit: In other words, yikes. The Kyrie, Hayward, Davis big three masterplan is looking bleak.
 

bankshot1

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I've got an MBA in Finance and a CFA and the NBA cap rules with its various ceilings and exceptions mystify me. Having said that I assume no KI means no AD, which means more of a more modest over '19-'20 redo. Having 3 1s in the '19 draft and hopefully a less protected Memphis pick going forward, isn't such a bad place to be.

And totally agree with LTP- it seems that we really need Gordo to be more like the guy we thought we had pre-injury. A $30 million anchor is a killer. He needs to find his game, confidence and his shot.
 

DrewDawg

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I don't agree that no Kyrie means no AD. AD has been the goal for a while.
 

Devizier

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I don't agree that no Kyrie means no AD. AD has been the goal for a while.
I think it makes it very likely. It will be difficult to replace Kyrie on the market. I suppose the Celtics could get creative and try to swing a deal for Davis and Holiday but then they will have no wing depth (that deal would obligate trading Tatum and Hayward).
 

Marbleheader

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I think Danny pushes his chips in regardless of Kyrie. This team hasn't been championship caliber in a decade. He's going all-in.
 

Captaincoop

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I think it makes it very likely. It will be difficult to replace Kyrie on the market. I suppose the Celtics could get creative and try to swing a deal for Davis and Holiday but then they will have no wing depth (that deal would obligate trading Tatum and Hayward).
I'm sure teams are dying to get their hands on Tatum and Hayward right now. Obviously Tatum still has value, but you'd have to give up more than Tatum just to get a team to eat Hayward's contract, nevermind getting actual value back. And REALLY nevermind getting AD back.
 

Devizier

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I'm sure teams are dying to get their hands on Tatum and Hayward right now. Obviously Tatum still has value, but you'd have to give up more than Tatum just to get a team to eat Hayward's contract, nevermind getting actual value back. And REALLY nevermind getting AD back.
Yeah, I’m not saying that the deal would be palatable, just that there will be no guards for a prospective AD squad unless the Celtics deal for one.
 

Captaincoop

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Looking at the actual returning players for next year...woof. What do they really have to build around? Hayward is a huge, overpaid, question mark (putting an actual question mark in the paint may have done more to slow down the Bucks than Hayward did); then there's Smart, Brown, Tatum...ok, solid, second-level talent...then Time Lord? Semi? Yabusele?

So all they need to do to contend is add two starting bigs, a starting PG, and a lead scorer.

UGH.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He runs the defense and was Tatum’s primary “position” coach.
So we should be better next year?
I kid. I kid.

Really don't need Morris back stealing shots from Tatum and Brown. I'd rather bring in guys that are willing to actually pass the ball from time to time.
Morris had the highest eFG% of these 3 players. Interesting that you want ball movement/passing but are promoting Tatum and Brown, each of whom are primarily iso-players offensively with similar assist numbers as Morris. I'll go back to my point I beat all season....the problem with this roster was its redundancy with lack of veteran role players and look no further than these three iso-centric wing scorers.

I'm surprised so many people want to tear this down and return to the lottery/fighting for 8-seed when we have the ability to pay more than anyone else for Kyrie and have more assets than anyone else to acquire Davis. I expect Ainge to take an aggressive and not a passive approach to this summer. I'll be disappointed otherwise.
 

RedOctober3829

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So we should be better next year?
I kid. I kid.


Morris had the highest eFG% of these 3 players. Interesting that you want ball movement/passing but are promoting Tatum and Brown, each of whom are primarily iso-players offensively with similar assist numbers as Morris. I'll go back to my point I beat all season....the problem with this roster was its redundancy and look no further than these three iso-centric wing scorers.

I'm surprised so many people want to tear this down and return to the lottery/fighting for 8-seed when we have the ability to pay more than anyone else for Kyrie and have more assets than anyone else to acquire Davis. I expect Ainge to take an aggressive and not a passive approach to this summer. I'll be disappointed otherwise.
Exactly on both points HRB. I don't always agree with you, but this is spot on. The group that wants Kyrie gone will be bitching that the Celtics will be stuck in mediocrity with no stars. If Kyrie leaves, they are screwed in terms of championship contention for years. I said it earlier: Ainge needs to keep Kyrie and decide which young guys to keep long term and use the others in trades to improve the roster. If it's Kyrie/AD, acquire better shooters to spread the floor out.
 

benhogan

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I've got an MBA in Finance and a CFA and the NBA cap rules with its various ceilings and exceptions mystify me. Having said that I assume no KI means no AD, which means more of a more modest over '19-'20 redo. Having 3 1s in the '19 draft and hopefully a less protected Memphis pick going forward, isn't such a bad place to be.

And totally agree with LTP- it seems that we really need Gordo to be more like the guy we thought we had pre-injury. A $30 million anchor is a killer. He needs to find his game, confidence and his shot.
Ha. Agreed. Similar background (convertible bond/HY arbitrage). Think the NBA salary cap rules are built more for lawyers then math nerds (like myself).

mcpickl and nighthob seem to have the best handle on the cap nuances around here.
 

lexrageorge

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Looking at the actual returning players for next year...woof. What do they really have to build around? Hayward is a huge, overpaid, question mark (putting an actual question mark in the paint may have done more to slow down the Bucks than Hayward did); then there's Smart, Brown, Tatum...ok, solid, second-level talent...then Time Lord? Semi? Yabusele?

So all they need to do to contend is add two starting bigs, a starting PG, and a lead scorer.

UGH.
This roster issue reinforces the point @HomeRunBaker made that Ainge could be pretty aggressive about putting together a package for Davis and keeping Kyrie.

However, if that gambit fails, you can safely assume that Horford, plus at least one of Baynes/Theis/Morris/Rozier are back. And you can add either drafted players or guys acquired via trade (I still think Tatum and Brown are very traceable assets if needed).

Not great, and far from being a contender. But they may be able to make something out of it if Hayward is able to improve.
 

benhogan

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So we should be better next year?
I kid. I kid.


Morris had the highest eFG% of these 3 players. Interesting that you want ball movement/passing but are promoting Tatum and Brown, each of whom are primarily iso-players offensively with similar assist numbers as Morris. I'll go back to my point I beat all season....the problem with this roster was its redundancy with lack of veteran role players and look no further than these three iso-centric wing scorers.

I'm surprised so many people want to tear this down and return to the lottery/fighting for 8-seed when we have the ability to pay more than anyone else for Kyrie and have more assets than anyone else to acquire Davis. I expect Ainge to take an aggressive and not a passive approach to this summer. I'll be disappointed otherwise.
Obviously, the team is much, much better with Davis and Kyrie. Having them here next season will be Plan A for Danny.

But returning to the lottery next season? come on. CBS had the Celtics in the playoffs with a ball of yarn, scotch tape and Elmer's glue for several seasons.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm surprised so many people want to tear this down and return to the lottery/fighting for 8-seed when we have the ability to pay more than anyone else for Kyrie and have more assets than anyone else to acquire Davis. I expect Ainge to take an aggressive and not a passive approach to this summer. I'll be disappointed otherwise.
People want to tear it down for the same reason people didn't want to trade for Chris Sale. I'm not sure there is anything more rewarding than following a guy like Mookie Betts get drafted, go through the system, and become arguably the best player in baseball.

Of course for every Mookie Betts there is, there are a few Xander Boegarts and a dozen Blake Swiharts.

If we could look at DA's time machine and know for certain (when the rest of the NBA had no idea) that JB and JT were going to max out as even borderline NBA All-Stars, this thread would be a lot different. But it is precisely that we can imagine JT becoming Paul Pierce and JB becoming Jimmy Butler that people want to build around them.

Everyone who wanted to be a NBA GM - how would you feel betting your career on knowing whether or not this will happen?

I'm certainly glad I only have to post about it on an interweb message board.
 

DrewDawg

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Dec 16, 2010
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Celtics' mess of a season rooted in Kyrie Irving and the franchise's obsession with the future

His shoot-till-it-feels-better strategy didn’t work either as he hit just 32 percent from the field in the final three games, illustrating that he’s probably better as a co-star than a leading man. Being a face of the franchise doesn’t come with a manual, but being poised and controlled through the storms of an 82-game season is probably in the first chapter.

Irving holds a large key to the Celtics’ future, but it certainly looked like he mentally packed his bags to go somewhere — anywhere — besides Boston.
Stevens fell on his sword in the postgame, the coach who could do no wrong his first several seasons as he ushered in better-than-expected teams, drawing praise that bordered on Popovichian levels but without the jewelry.

“I did a bad job. At the end of the day, your team doesn't find its best fit together, it's on you,” Stevens said. “I'll be the first to say, as far as any other year I've been a head coach, it's certainly been the most trying.”

Rozier didn't mince words:
Terry Rozier[/a] III told Yahoo Sports. “Coach was in a tough position, one of the toughest positions, dealing with all these guys with attitudes, all that sh--. Guys that's All-Stars, guys getting paid a lot of money, guys trying to get paid. It's tough.”

“I feel like I sacrificed the most, but I’d do it any day for this team,” Rozier told Yahoo Sports. “A lot of things weren't fair to me, but it's not about me. That's why I don't bitch and complain.”
“I don't give a f--- what nobody say, I sacrificed the most out of anybody. I'm a top point guard in this league. I feel like it's a fresh start, whether I'm here or whether I'm gone.” said Rozier, a star last postseason in Irving’s absence who’s about to hit restricted free agency in July
It’s hard to ignore the self-induced noise when the back of your jersey might as well say “future trade asset” and the front office does very little to quell the speculation. There’s a fine line between being coy and being slick, and the Celtics perhaps got too cute for their own good.
 

lars10

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Jul 31, 2007
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JT did not take a major step back. The most pessimistic view is that he didn't step forward. There are a lot of reasons for that I'm sure, many of which we will never know.
I am purely going off what my eyes saw..not numbers so I could be very much incorrect..I didn't watch every game. Seemed like as the season went on that his confidence was a lot lower..didn't seem to go the basket as much, took fewer threes and instead took longer twos, but my eye could be completely biased. It also felt that he disappeared for long stretches this year..lots more than last..but I do think he's a major talent and the only reason I say 'step back' is because I expect a lot out of him and anticipate him being a superstar.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Dec 19, 2009
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Biggest question for me this offseason is if with a more normal offseason and months of training can Gordon Hayward become Gordon Hayward again. If he can't there's nothing Danny or Brad can do to make this team a contender. Even if Kyrie stays (yuck) and Danny trades for AD I don't think it would be enough without Hayward being back to his old self.

Edit: In other words, yikes. The Kyrie, Hayward, Davis big three masterplan is looking bleak.
Gordon Hayward may be Gordon Hayward now. Didn't it come out from former teammates that he would have games where he looked like a perennial All-Star and then games when he would just disappear? Seems to fit with what's been happening over the last month. Will it be a little better next season? In all likelihood. But he may never be the guy people think he could be and that he's shown flashes of being.
 

lars10

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Rozier had me with the first quote and lost me with the second. Part of the problem with Rozier is he thinks he's a top point guard in this league. He needs to look at the game tape and see how often the team fell out of leads when he was put on the court. Brad didn't do him any favors playing him so often with Kyrie..since that pairing didn't work all year..but he was also way too often looking to shoot first and pass later. If Terry works on his jumper all off season maybe he takes a big leap, but from last year's playoffs to this year's he's been part of the problem.

Not sure what the solutions are for this team, but there was zero chemistry from day one. Nothing like last year where the preseason was all about ball movement. Who knows how different the team would have been if Hayward had stayed healthy.

The other thing I'm fairly certain of is that Danny will surprise us with a move or two that we didn't expect.
 

lars10

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Jul 31, 2007
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Gordon Hayward may be Gordon Hayward now. Didn't it come out from former teammates that he would have games where he looked like a perennial All-Star and then games when he would just disappear? Seems to fit with what's been happening over the last month. Will it be a little better next season? In all likelihood. But he may never be the guy people think he could be and that he's shown flashes of being.
I feel like the combo of him and Morris on the court at the same time made them both redundant. Also, it seemed like Gordon put his own offense second almost all season..looking to spread the ball around instead of looking to shoot. Don't know what the numbers are, but I'd guess that he had one of the lowest shot totals of players that played significant minutes. Seems like this team needs a few less shooters and a few more players that are willing to put in work on the boards/defense/offense etc.

edit: Hayward's /36 FGA was 12.3 which was 10th on the team (really would be 7th without Monroe, Hunter, Dozier)...Theis, Baynes and Smart were the only players with regular minutes that shot less. Al Horford and Rozier were right about him with 13.2 and 13.4. Kyrie was 20.2 which probably needs to change if he's on the team next year.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Rozier had me with the first quote and lost me with the second. Part of the problem with Rozier is he thinks he's a top point guard in this league. He needs to look at the game tape and see how often the team fell out of leads when he was put on the court. Brad didn't do him any favors playing him so often with Kyrie..since that pairing didn't work all year..but he was also way too often looking to shoot first and pass later. If Terry works on his jumper all off season maybe he takes a big leap, but from last year's playoffs to this year's he's been part of the problem.

Not sure what the solutions are for this team, but there was zero chemistry from day one. Nothing like last year where the preseason was all about ball movement. Who knows how different the team would have been if Hayward had stayed healthy.

The other thing I'm fairly certain of is that Danny will surprise us with a move or two that we didn't expect.
Rozier has showed in his starts both last season, in the playoffs, and this year that he is a very capable lead guard in this league and will be starting somewhere next year...….without that confidence and swagger he'd never be able to have been as successful as he was as a starter. He clearly wasn't ready to play a backup PG/backup combo guard role after last seasons success while entering a contract year. I don't see where he is off point at all in saying he sacrificed more than anyone on the team.....you can sense his frustration just from reading those quotes.