2019 MLB regular season news.

soxhop411

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Diamondback Steven Souza Jr is having season ending surgery.

Per
Steve Gilbert he has an ACL tear, LCL tear, partial PCL tear, and posterior lateral capsule tear in his left knee.

Paging @DaveRoberts'Shoes please pick up the white Courtesy telephone
 

jon abbey

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Tatis will be the youngest Opening Day starter since Adrian Beltre in 1999.

Also if he struggles at all at any point, they can send him down for a few weeks and get an extra year of control (NY did this with both Kahnle and Drury last year).
 

jon abbey

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And to take it even further, here’s the full list of players younger than Tatis Jr. to start Opening Day since 1977:

Adrian Beltre
Ken Griffey Jr.
Alan Trammell
 

jon abbey

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And in other youthful player news:

“Rule 5 pick Elvis Luciano has made the #BlueJays' roster. He's 19 years, 39 days old today. Assuming he pitches sometime soon, he will be the youngest pitcher to take an MLB mound since Jose Rijo did so at 18 years, 328 days in 1984. “
 

Brand Name

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And in other youthful player news:

“Rule 5 pick Elvis Luciano has made the #BlueJays' roster. He's 19 years, 39 days old today. Assuming he pitches sometime soon, he will be the youngest pitcher to take an MLB mound since Jose Rijo did so at 18 years, 328 days in 1984. “
A personal stat that he'll be the 500th to debut with a birthdate later than mine (June 2, 1992), not including birthday twin IF/P Kaleb Cowart. No players of yet have been born in 1999. The next youngest is Juan Soto, born on 8/25/98.

If you sum Luciano's and Soto's ages, 19.040 and 19.207, respectively, you get 38 years, 247 days. There were nine players who exceeded such an age to either get at least PA or throw at least one pitch in 2018: Chase Utley, Ichiro, Victor Martinez, Matt Holliday, Adrian Beltre, Fernando Rodney, Brad Ziegler, Peter Moylan, and Bartolo Colon.
 

jon abbey

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Of course Tatis Jr. and Luciano are very different cases. Tatis deserves to be up and will likely be a superstar, Luciano didn’t pitch above rookie ball last year and is probably 3-4 years away at least but TOR is trying to stash him all year as a Rule 5 pick like the Padres did with Luis Torrens in 2017 (back to the minors last year and still probably years away if at all).
 

jon abbey

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Joey Votto with a funny/self-referential 'decline phase' t-shirt (for the record, he is 35):

 

nattysez

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Giants DFA'd Mac Williamson. Great example of a AAAA guy who always managed to get injured whenever he seemed poised for a breakout. I don't rule out the possibility that he could go to another team, finally get consistent ABs, stay healthy and rake.

Additionally, this "don't make your lineup public until Vegas has it" thing has gone awry already. Managers are sharing partial lineups with writers, saying which guys will play the rest of the week, etc. It's a pointless restriction.
 

Plympton91

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Giants DFA'd Mac Williamson. Great example of a AAAA guy who always managed to get injured whenever he seemed poised for a breakout. I don't rule out the possibility that he could go to another team, finally get consistent ABs, stay healthy and rake.

Additionally, this "don't make your lineup public until Vegas has it" thing has gone awry already. Managers are sharing partial lineups with writers, saying which guys will play the rest of the week, etc. It's a pointless restriction.
Wait, what? Seriously? They’re actively colluding with the gambling industry to control information flow? F that.
 

jon abbey

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Corey Knebel officially getting TJS, he took a while to decide.
 

jon abbey

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Oof, Hunter Greene is getting TJS also, this is a disaster for the Reds as he will end up missing 2+ years of development time in the end as explained here:

“Reds righthander Hunter Greene, the second pick in the 2017 draft, will miss the 2019 season as he is set to have elbow ligament reconstruction surgery, the club announced on Monday.

Greene, the club's No. 2 prospect, injured his elbow last summer and was shut down with a sprained UCL (which indicates a partial tear).

At the time, he and the club decided to try to see if rest and rehabilitation would be enough. He returned to the mound this spring, but last week while warming up for a live batting practice he felt some pain. Doctors then found new damage to Greene's UCL ligament in his elbow and a pair of doctors recommended that he have Tommy John surgery.

The surgery is scheduled for next week and will be performed by Dr. Neal ElAttrache.

"Obviously there is some lost time there, but we had some really good doctors look at him and that was their conclusion," said Reds president Dick Williams.”

"He was cleared to throw in the fall. He went through a program all winter without setback. Everybody was on board with what we did and wished it had worked. Now that it hasn't, it was clear from the scans that surgery would be required to get it repaired."

A typical Tommy John surgery takes 15 months for recovery, which means that Greene will likely miss most of the 2020 season in addition to all of the 2019 season.”

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/reds-rhp-hunter-greene-to-undergo-tommy-john-surgery/
 

kelpapa

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Acuna and Braves nearing 8 year extension:
@JeffPassan
BREAKING: Outfielder Ronald Acuña and the Atlanta Braves are finalizing an eight-year, $100 million contract extension, league sources tell ESPN. The deal includes two club options.
 

BigSoxFan

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Acuna and Braves nearing 8 year extension:
@JeffPassan
BREAKING: Outfielder Ronald Acuña and the Atlanta Braves are finalizing an eight-year, $100 million contract extension, league sources tell ESPN. The deal includes two club options.
I’ll never criticize someone for turning down that kind of money but I think Acuna will be costing himself a ton of money with this deal.
 

E5 Yaz

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I’ll never criticize someone for turning down that kind of money but I think Acuna will be costing himself a ton of money with this deal.
I suppose, the options are at 17M, but who knows what the financial landscape will look like when he would have become a FA in 2026
 

Gdiguy

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I’ll never criticize someone for turning down that kind of money but I think Acuna will be costing himself a ton of money with this deal.
On average, sure; but how much more would, say, Matt Harvey have made signing a deal like this vs his current situation?

I find it very difficult to say 'don't take $100M' is a good choice when the downside risk, even if rare, is so high
 

Adrian's Dome

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On average, sure; but how much more would, say, Matt Harvey have made signing a deal like this vs his current situation?

I find it very difficult to say 'don't take $100M' is a good choice when the downside risk, even if rare, is so high
Matt Harvey and thousands of others that've had careers derailed for a multitude of reasons.

Security matters...like, a lot. 100 million guaranteed right now > maybe potential for 200 in a few years if everything breaks right.
 

Marciano490

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Aren’t people always forgetting investments when they do these calculations? Like how much extra is he getting in the next few years, and what kind of returns can he get having that money in hand sooner?
 

Adrian's Dome

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Aren’t people always forgetting investments when they do these calculations? Like how much extra is he getting in the next few years, and what kind of returns can he get having that money in hand sooner?
Yes, and that's only one variable.

Hell, I can imagine for a lot of players it's probably easier to play knowing that if you turn a base awkwardly and tear an ACL you're still set. It's got to be nerve wracking taking the field the season before a potential big payday, let alone a few seasons before where you know if you don't perform or you get hurt you're likely costing yourself millions. It's one thing for position players, but imagine being a season away from FA and getting the thoracic outlet or torn labrum diagnosis as a pitcher? You know damn well right at that moment there's a huge chance you're never going to be the same.

Yeah, the "team friendly" extension isn't what those players would get as a FA, but given that it's fully guaranteed and it's mutually beneficial for both sides, that's exactly why more young players are agreeing to it.
 
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SydneySox

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Yes, and that's only one variable.

Hell, I can imagine for a lot of players it's probably easier to play knowing that if you turn a base awkwardly and tear an ACL you're still set. It's got to be nerve wracking taking the field the season before a potential big payday, let alone a few seasons before where you know if you don't perform or you get hurt you're likely costing yourself millions. It's one thing for position players, but imagine being a season away from FA and getting the thoracic outlet or torn labrum diagnosis as a pitcher? You know damn well right at that moment there's a huge chance you're never going to be the same..
I can't imagine it being that much more nerve wracking than the entire early stage career of a player, to be honest. I've often heard it said the athletes that finally make it aren't always the most talented, there are many who could have physically thrived that could never handle the crushing expectation and fear in the early years that everything they're doing could, with one small injury, end instantly.
 

DeadlySplitter

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unsurprisingly, the outcry about this contract is growing.

Jeff Passan‏Verified account @JeffPassan
It's typical that agents criticize competitors' deals. But I've now heard from executives, players, analytics people, development side and scouts who are saying the same thing: The Ozzie Albies extension might be the worst contract ever for a player. And this is not hyperbole.

Jeff Passan‏Verified account @JeffPassan 13m13 minutes ago
Albies is 22. He is, at worst, a solid everyday player. Likelier an All-Star-caliber sort. The deal gives away four free agent years and keeps Albies under team control through his age-30 season. It maxes out at $45 million over nine years. It's staggering in every respect.
 

Cellar-Door

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The union should decertify his agent for letting him sign that, he probably lost 60M+ on that deal, likely more.
 

DeadlySplitter

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The union should decertify his agent for letting him sign that, he probably lost 60M+ on that deal, likely more.
Kiley McDaniel‏ @kileymcd 17m17 minutes ago
The new Braves regime walked into a dream situation with Acuna/Albies: two phenoms that got low amateur bonuses, came up/want to stay together, got there fast & both were repped by small agencies. Heavy rumors the agents were nervous they would lose the kids before they got paid.
 

VORP Speed

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The union should decertify his agent for letting him sign that, he probably lost 60M+ on that deal, likely more.
Why? The union put him in the position to need to sign a contract like this by prioritizing the interests of veterans over those of young players. Signing a contract like this is a totally rational decision for a young player facing 2 pre-arb minimum salary seasons plus 3 non guaranteed arb years.
People don’t seem to do the risk analysis correctly on the decision between locking in life-changing wealth vs rolling the dice on continued health and performance.
 

Scoops Bolling

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Why? The union put him in the position to need to sign a contract like this by prioritizing the interests of veterans over those of young players. Signing a contract like this is a totally rational decision for a young player facing 2 pre-arb minimum salary seasons plus 3 non guaranteed arb years.
People don’t seem to do the risk analysis correctly on the decision between locking in life-changing wealth vs rolling the dice on continued health and performance.
This is a bad take. This is not a rational decision of "locking in life-changing wealth", it's locking in a shockingly low level of wealth compared to what other players have been able to secure. Eloy Jimenez secured a larger guaranteed payment ($43 vs $35 million), much larger options (two options combining for $32 million, with $3 million buyouts for either compared to Albies two options combining for $10 million and unclear buyouts)...and Eloy had never played in the MLB before signing his contract, and his contract is for one year less, meaning at most he gave up 2 years of FA compared to Albies' 4 years. You can do a similar evaluation with just about every other extension signed this offseason, or of recent vintage. Albies had already proven himself at worst an above average regular, and a likely All Star caliber player...and now he won't be a free agent until he's over 30 in all likelihood. It's a shockingly awful deal, and one that no agent in the world should have agreed to. This contract has cost Albies tens of millions in potential income, and the guarantee he received in exchange for that is nowhere near large enough to make that a rational decision. Everyone else is right here, this deal is garbage for the player, and the agent should be getting pilloried as he is.
 

Just a bit outside

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This is a bad take. This is not a rational decision of "locking in life-changing wealth", it's locking in a shockingly low level of wealth compared to what other players have been able to secure. Eloy Jimenez secured a larger guaranteed payment ($43 vs $35 million), much larger options (two options combining for $32 million, with $3 million buyouts for either compared to Albies two options combining for $10 million and unclear buyouts)...and Eloy had never played in the MLB before signing his contract, and his contract is for one year less, meaning at most he gave up 2 years of FA compared to Albies' 4 years. You can do a similar evaluation with just about every other extension signed this offseason, or of recent vintage. Albies had already proven himself at worst an above average regular, and a likely All Star caliber player...and now he won't be a free agent until he's over 30 in all likelihood. It's a shockingly awful deal, and one that no agent in the world should have agreed to. This contract has cost Albies tens of millions in potential income, and the guarantee he received in exchange for that is nowhere near large enough to make that a rational decision. Everyone else is right here, this deal is garbage for the player, and the agent should be getting pilloried as he is.
It is a terrible contract for Albies but Eloy was in a different situation in that he got a 2.8 million signing bonus.
 

Scoops Bolling

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It is a terrible contract for Albies but Eloy was in a different situation in that he got a 2.8 million signing bonus.
I'm not sure I buy that factor as having any real weight; Jimenez got that bonus 6 years ago, Albies has been in the MLB for about 1.5 seasons...even at a minimum salary, their career earnings and likely savings at the start of this year were probably not dissimilar enough to explain the discrepancy. Hell, Acuna has one half season less service time, received a similar bonus to Albies, posted about an equivalent season last year...and got $100 million guaranteed. There's just no justifying this Albies deal.
 

VORP Speed

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I'm not sure I buy that factor as having any real weight; Jimenez got that bonus 6 years ago, Albies has been in the MLB for about 1.5 seasons...even at a minimum salary, their career earnings and likely savings at the start of this year were probably not dissimilar enough to explain the discrepancy. Hell, Acuna has one half season less service time, received a similar bonus to Albies, posted about an equivalent season last year...and got $100 million guaranteed. There's just no justifying this Albies deal.
You can’t get a deal the counterparty won’t give you. Maybe his agent did a bad job negotiating, who knows? But maybe Atlanta did a good job understanding the situation he was in, drawing a hard line at a lowball number and putting him in a take it or leave it situation. Because other teams have paid more in other situations doesn’t mean Atlanta was going to in this one.

If his choice was between this deal and no deal and you’re arguing that it is stupid of him to take this deal, you’re not accurately assessing the risk/reward to him. I’m not saying it’s a no-brainer to take it, but it is also perfectly understandable that someone who has never made significant $$ and doesn’t have high income prospects outside of baseball would prioritize certainty of life-changing wealth over maximizing the expected value.
 

Scoops Bolling

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If his choice was between this deal and no deal and you’re arguing that it is stupid of him to take this deal, you’re not accurately assessing the risk/reward to him. I’m not saying it’s a no-brainer to take it, but it is also perfectly understandable that someone who has never made significant $$ and doesn’t have high income prospects outside of baseball would prioritize certainty of life-changing wealth over maximizing the expected value.
Are you seriously trying to argue that every other player who has signed an extension in similar circumstances, including a teammate of his barely a week ago, which while not setting an exact market figure have given some rough parameters of what the market value of that risk offset actually is did not accurately assess the risk/reward, and that only Albies who sacrificed a massively larger share of his potential contract value actually got it right...or could it be, that the people who do this for a living, who almost certainly have acturial training or acturial staff and whose job is to assess that risk/reward have gotten it right, and Albies' small time agent has royally fucked up and taken a deal because he was scared he'd lose his client once that client realized the full value of his potential and the fact that higher end agents may be better suited to such a deal (with this contract being the literal case in point)?

Either the rest of the market isn't accurately assessing the market, or one guy made a royal fuck up...and given even basic back of the envelop projections on Albie's likely contract values, that latter certainly seems a hell of a lot more likely. Unless it comes out that Albies has career threatening, Brandon Roy level knee problems, this contract is indefensible.
 
As the resident Braves fan here, I'm shocked by the Albies contract to the point that I fear it's going to hurt the Braves because Albies is eventually going to realized he's been cheated and will start getting angry and regretful. The Acuna deal was misdemeanor theft; this was felony larceny. I sincerely hope the team is willing to renegotiate and give him some extra money in due course - maybe a new extension a few years from now that guarantees the option years and adds an extra year of team control beyond that for $20m per year, plus or minus? (At least treat him like an NFL player, not an indentured servant.)

I guess I can console myself by noting that Liberty Media is such a bad, penny-pinching ownership group - and the Braves' long-term TV deal is still as bad for the Braves as today's contract is for Albies - that deals like this are probably necessary for Atlanta to be competitive going forward. But that's a very strange sort of solace. This feels like a bad day for baseball and for Albies, even as it's a great day for the Braves.
 

Gdiguy

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Are you seriously trying to argue that every other player who has signed an extension in similar circumstances, including a teammate of his barely a week ago, which while not setting an exact market figure have given some rough parameters of what the market value of that risk offset actually is did not accurately assess the risk/reward, and that only Albies who sacrificed a massively larger share of his potential contract value actually got it right...or could it be, that the people who do this for a living, who almost certainly have acturial training or acturial staff and whose job is to assess that risk/reward have gotten it right, and Albies' small time agent has royally fucked up and taken a deal because he was scared he'd lose his client once that client realized the full value of his potential and the fact that higher end agents may be better suited to such a deal (with this contract being the literal case in point)?

Either the rest of the market isn't accurately assessing the market, or one guy made a royal fuck up...and given even basic back of the envelop projections on Albie's likely contract values, that latter certainly seems a hell of a lot more likely. Unless it comes out that Albies has career threatening, Brandon Roy level knee problems, this contract is indefensible.
I mean, you seem to be assuming that Albies is sort of not in the picture there and it's all his agent's choice?

There's no way to judge this without knowing his personal risk/reward tolerance. To use an example that I can pull rapidly, in 2013 (or 2014) everyone would've thought Travis D'Arnaud would be crazy to take that kind of deal. Instead, he's gotten repeatedly injured, and has made $10 mil total through 2019 (with the likelihood of struggling to get a backup-level deal next year if he doesn't do well this year). When you add in the fact that this deal also acts as a strong hedge against the team sending him to the minors for service-time gaming, I'm on VORP's side - on average, it's a really bad deal, but for someone who hasn't yet made real $, $35 million is enough to just passively invest and pull a $1M/yr income, that's a fundamental difference from the first few million

I don't disagree that these deals aren't good for baseball - they're an outcome of the MLB players union historically choosing to screw over young players. But given the current situation, I don't judge him for taking that deal
 

glennhoffmania

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When I first read about the deal I was shocked. I figured something was reported incorrectly. It makes very little sense. I guess you can't judge Albies for getting a guaranteed 35m, but if there was a case where the risk should trump the reward this was it. As long as he's healthy he could make 35m in his arb years alone.

It's not all on his agent though. It's not like Albies doesn't know what Acuna just signed for. Ultimately it was his decision.
 

glennhoffmania

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I mean, you seem to be assuming that Albies is sort of not in the picture there and it's all his agent's choice?

There's no way to judge this without knowing his personal risk/reward tolerance. To use an example that I can pull rapidly, in 2013 (or 2014) everyone would've thought Travis D'Arnaud would be crazy to take that kind of deal. Instead, he's gotten repeatedly injured, and has made $10 mil total through 2019 (with the likelihood of struggling to get a backup-level deal next year if he doesn't do well this year). When you add in the fact that this deal also acts as a strong hedge against the team sending him to the minors for service-time gaming, I'm on VORP's side - on average, it's a really bad deal, but for someone who hasn't yet made real $, $35 million is enough to just passively invest and pull a $1M/yr income, that's a fundamental difference from the first few million

I don't disagree that these deals aren't good for baseball - they're an outcome of the MLB players union historically choosing to screw over young players. But given the current situation, I don't judge him for taking that deal
This all makes some sense except they were never sending him down to screw with his service time. He's been their starting 2B since opening day last year. He wasn't going anywhere.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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If his choice was between this deal and no deal and you’re arguing that it is stupid of him to take this deal, you’re not accurately assessing the risk/reward to him. I’m not saying it’s a no-brainer to take it, but it is also perfectly understandable that someone who has never made significant $$ and doesn’t have high income prospects outside of baseball would prioritize certainty of life-changing wealth over maximizing the expected value.
Yes, this. $35 million guaranteed earnings by age 30 is a nice life. There's no guarantee he doesn't break his wrist tomorrow, wash out of the league in a couple years, and never sniff even a fraction of that money. The guy is a multimillionaire now, set for life, and people on the net are losing their minds.
 

glennhoffmania

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Yes, this. $35 million guaranteed earnings by age 30 is a nice life. There's no guarantee he doesn't break his wrist tomorrow, wash out of the league in a couple years, and never sniff even a fraction of that money. The guy is a multimillionaire now, set for life, and people on the net are losing their minds.
If Atlanta said take this or nothing I can see that. But I find it hard to believe after the Acuna deal that this was the best be could get. He has one more year of service time and he's only worth a third of Acuna? Not a chance.
 

VORP Speed

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Are you seriously trying to argue that every other player who has signed an extension in similar circumstances, including a teammate of his barely a week ago, which while not setting an exact market figure have given some rough parameters of what the market value of that risk offset actually is did not accurately assess the risk/reward, and that only Albies who sacrificed a massively larger share of his potential contract value actually got it right...or could it be, that the people who do this for a living, who almost certainly have acturial training or acturial staff and whose job is to assess that risk/reward have gotten it right, and Albies' small time agent has royally fucked up and taken a deal because he was scared he'd lose his client once that client realized the full value of his potential and the fact that higher end agents may be better suited to such a deal (with this contract being the literal case in point)?

Either the rest of the market isn't accurately assessing the market, or one guy made a royal fuck up...and given even basic back of the envelop projections on Albie's likely contract values, that latter certainly seems a hell of a lot more likely. Unless it comes out that Albies has career threatening, Brandon Roy level knee problems, this contract is indefensible.
You're throwing around things like it's indefensible and the agent royally fucked up but in reality you have absolutely no idea how the negotiation went down. This is the quote from Albies: "I don't look at it just from money because I'm not playing for money. I'm playing for my career. I took it because I want my family to be safe." Does that sound like his agent forced him to sign it? If that was the Braves final offer, what are you suggesting the agent should have done? Quit? Not presented the offer to the client?

Did the Braves take advantage of Albies? Of course they did. Does that mean the agent fucked up? Not necessarily. Deals don't get done by actuarial staffs or by some objective analysis of comps--this isn't an arbitration case. Teams have leverage because the union that is supposed to represent all players actually has only represented the interest of veterans. They use this leverage to exploit the vulnerability of young players who have to choose between locking in security and rolling the dice on future health and performance. It is absolutely rational for the players to choose the security just as it is absolutely rational for the teams to force them into this choice. The Braves seem to have squeezed especially hard here, but they probably have a pretty good understanding of Albies and his motivations, and possibly they know things about him that you don't and saw an opportunity to hold the line at an extremely team friendly deal. You don't know what discussions he had with his agent, you don't know if the agent advised him to do this deal or not, you don't know how he or his family view this--beyond him giving quotes indicating he's satisfied. You're assuming there was more to be had..but what evidence is there of this? Teams throw out lowball offers and play hardball in negotiations all the time. Looks like the Braves did it pretty successfully here.
 

Scoops Bolling

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You're throwing around things like it's indefensible and the agent royally fucked up but in reality you have absolutely no idea how the negotiation went down. This is the quote from Albies: "I don't look at it just from money because I'm not playing for money. I'm playing for my career. I took it because I want my family to be safe." Does that sound like his agent forced him to sign it? If that was the Braves final offer, what are you suggesting the agent should have done? Quit? Not presented the offer to the client?

Did the Braves take advantage of Albies? Of course they did. Does that mean the agent fucked up? Not necessarily. Deals don't get done by actuarial staffs or by some objective analysis of comps--this isn't an arbitration case. Teams have leverage because the union that is supposed to represent all players actually has only represented the interest of veterans. They use this leverage to exploit the vulnerability of young players who have to choose between locking in security and rolling the dice on future health and performance. It is absolutely rational for the players to choose the security just as it is absolutely rational for the teams to force them into this choice. The Braves seem to have squeezed especially hard here, but they probably have a pretty good understanding of Albies and his motivations, and possibly they know things about him that you don't and saw an opportunity to hold the line at an extremely team friendly deal. You don't know what discussions he had with his agent, you don't know if the agent advised him to do this deal or not, you don't know how he or his family view this--beyond him giving quotes indicating he's satisfied. You're assuming there was more to be had..but what evidence is there of this? Teams throw out lowball offers and play hardball in negotiations all the time. Looks like the Braves did it pretty successfully here.
If teams throw out lowball offers all the time why does this one stand out so egregiously? If this is rational, and not in fact stupid and indefensible, why is it so starkly different from every other extension of recent vintage? Again, unless there is uniquely career threatening issue facing Albies, then why is it that every other player in similar circumstances has sacrificed so much less of their projected career salary and free agent years than he has? You're assuming that his choice was rational because it was the choice he made, and not that it wasn't just a stupid, indefensible decision.
 

Cellar-Door

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Also of note, he could get insurance against future lost wealth if he was really worried about injury, it wouldn't be THAT expensive for a guy making 600k a year, especially given that he's a position player and injuries that completely end careers of young star players are pretty rare.

What makes the Albies deal so bad is that there isn't a good rationale for settling for so little, so early. Or for those 2 awful option years at the end.

What it feels like is that he is a young guy, it's a lot of money and he'd like to stay with his friend Acuna, and his agent just said,... sure to a terrible offer rather than do his job and tell his client that it was atrociously low and that he could get a much better deal either now or next year because the agent was a small agency and worried that if they did their job Albies might move to a bigger agency. Atlanta super low-balled him because they correctly read that his agents were chumps who wouldn't push too hard for a deal fitting with "market" for extensions like this.