2019 Knicks: Living On A Prayer

jon abbey

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We used to have a mildly active Knicks thread here, but that was so long ago that it didn't even come up on a search. Since with the Porzingis blockbuster, they have again entered the possible fringe of relevance, I thought I'd start a thread...

So you guys primarily know me as a loony Yankee fan, but I have probably been more of a Knicks fan over the past 40 years as a whole. That has largely faded in recent years, and I never underestimate the ability of Dolan's employees to screw up any and all situations, but this at least feels much more thought out than the similar attempt in the original summer of LeBron (2010). We'll see in July what they can actually pull off, but even the tanking is being much more successfully executed this time (so far, again they always screw this up in the final few weeks).

So pulling numbers out of the air, I am going to put NY's chances of Durant at 60 percent, Kyrie at 20 percent, and Zion at 14 percent. That is a combined 1.6 percent chance for all three, but if they do somehow pull that off, there is a lot of talented and raw youth behind them:

Knox (19)
Smith Jr. (21)
Ntilikina (20)
Mitchell Robinson (20) (a 7 foot pogo stick on both ends, if he can just stay healthy)
Trier (22)

It's the Knicks, so they are going to end up with max deals to Boogie and Kemba and Cam Reddish at #4, but at least there is a flicker of hope for now.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Hmmm... I know I’m not the most dispassionate observer here, but Durant at 60% NY-bound seems absurdly high to me. I’d rate it more like 75% GS / 10% NY / 15% other, with that 10% NY including the possibility that Dolan sells the team (which I think would make it much more plausible).

But even if it is 60% or anywhere close, I’m surprised that you would have Kyrie that much lower than him. I’d imagine they’re highly dependent variables. You really think Durant going into his age 31 season would want to be the only elite star trying to lift that team and its promising young kids to relevancy? I get that they have two max slots and there are other big names out there, but I don’t think any of the other names complement KD’s skillset (or skill level) like Kyrie.

I mean, I get the appeal of being the Hoops King of NYC, and the Kleiman-Jay-Z-NYC connections, etc. But I still kinda think the Currygod will work his Charlotte-home-cooked sweet talk on both KD and Klay while they’re there for the All-Star break (sans Draymond, fwiw), and it’ll basically be over for both of them. The fact that Lacob’s gonna open the checkbook and give them both more money they can get anywhere else, unveil statues of them at the opening of the spanking new waterfront Ring Chase Center, and give them a great chance to be two of the three key cogs of the greatest basketball team ever assembled will be gravy.

Win or lose this year, they still have a little work to do to put the Jordan Bulls in their rear view mirror. And while Steph and Klay would top King James in career rings with a fourth title this year, KD — whose whole career has been defined by being the #2 guy of his generation — would still need one more.

On the other hand ... there’s James Dolan. And a stirring Bon Jovi song. :)
 
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Bunt Single

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Yeah, I feel as thought the James Dolan factor might be getting underplayed here. How will players feel about playing for an organization run by an owner as... well, as Dolanian as James Dolan has shown himself to be? I imagine many players might not care. But a player as astute as Kyrie? A year and a half ago when he came to Boston, he seemed very appreciative of the organizational culture he discovered, from the coaching on up to ownership.

Now, part of that may have been relief at escaping Lebron-Land in Cleveland. Still, the idea of joining the circus that Dolan has created at Madison Square Garden might give him pause....

At least, I'm hoping so.
 

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On Simmons' podcast reacting to the Courtney Lee trade, he mentioned that he "Knew for a fact" that the Knicks got a meeting with LeBron and Wade in 2010 and Dolan et al screwed it up as badly as it was possible to. I'd not heard that before, but wasn't surprised.
 

lovegtm

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Hmmm... I know I’m not the most dispassionate observer here, but Durant at 60% NY-bound seems absurdly high to me. I’d rate it more like 75% GS / 10% NY / 15% other, with that 10% NY including the possibility that Dolan sells the team (which I think would make it much more plausible).

But even if it is 60% or anywhere close, I’m surprised that you would have Kyrie that much lower than him. I’d imagine they’re highly dependent variables. You really think Durant going into his age 31 season would want to be the only elite star trying to lift that team and its promising young kids to relevancy? I get that they have two max slots and there are other big names out there, but I don’t think any of the other names complement KD’s skillset (or skill level) like Kyrie.

I mean, I get the appeal of being the Hoops King of NYC, and the Kleiman-Jay-Z-NYC connections, etc. But I still kinda think the Currygod will work his Charlotte-home-cooked sweet talk on both KD and Klay while they’re there for the All-Star break (sans Draymond, fwiw), and it’ll basically be over for both of them. The fact that Lacob’s gonna open the checkbook and give them both more money they can get anywhere else, unveil statues of them at the opening of the spanking new waterfront Ring Chase Center, and give them a great chance to be two of the three key cogs of the greatest basketball team ever assembled will be gravy.

Win or lose this year, they still have a little work to do to put the Jordan Bulls in their rear view mirror. And while Steph and Klay would top King James in career rings with a fourth title this year, KD — whose whole career has been defined by being the #2 guy of his generation — would still need one more.

On the other hand ... there’s James Dolan. And a stirring Bon Jovi song. :)
Kemba?
 

Big John

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The gave themselves a chance to be relevant. It probably won't work, but every downtrodden franchise sells hope.
 

bankshot1

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They could always have Charles Oakley,Carmelo, Enes Kanter and KP give stirring testimonials about the loyalty and respect that the organization holds for its players.
 

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jon abbey

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Yeah, those cases are all pretty different and I'm certainly not defending Knicks management, but Kanter is a wildly overpaid sieve on defense who should STFU while he collects checks on the last sizable deal he's ever going to get in this league.

The KP stuff is pretty interesting, I think in the end it mostly came down to his injury being terribly timed as far as his contact expiring. It's smart for DAL to roll the dice like they did, especially given the potential synergy between Doncic and Porzingis, but I don't think NY did anything wrong in his case.
 

jon abbey

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Also both Melo and Kanter are similar cases in that both had the option to go elsewhere for less money as opposed to staying in NY where they knew exactly what they were signing up for. Kanter could have declined his player option, Melo could have signed a smaller max deal with the Bulls, but both chose to stay with the devil they knew for more money.

Oakley is the only one of those with a genuine beef, and yeah, Dolan is a massive ass, that is not news to anyone. I started this FB page a while back (2012?):

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyMSG/
 

ifmanis5

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Dolan today: He's not selling.

YES Network‏Verified account @YESNetwork 51m51 minutes ago
James Dolan joins @TMKSonYES to discuss the recent incident at MSG, and notes, "I am not selling the team."

Also took a shot at Simmons.
Mike Vorkunov‏Verified account @MikeVorkunov 20m20 minutes ago
James Dolan on @BillSimmons saying he's considering selling Knicks: "There are teams that do not want us to get free agents. Some in particular. He’s very close friends with the GM of one team. What they’re doing is they’re trying to destabilize because they know we’re favored."
 

RedOctober3829

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I listened to that whole thing in my car on the way home. Dolan comes off as petty, short-tempered, and tone-deaf to pretty much every situation around him. They brought up the ban of Daily News reporters and it's the same attitude as it was with the fan. He literally said he doesn't care what people think or PR.
 

Big John

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The Knicks would be more attractive to free agents if someone other than Dolan owned the franchise. Simmons was probably doing the Knicks a favor.
 

jon abbey

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Yep, Durant should say publicly he’d love to come to NY if Dolan will sell within a year. He’d be a NYC hero the rest of his life almost no matter how it played out.
 

jon abbey

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That's BS man!! Eddy Curry was signing in NY no matter what!!
Actually that was a trade which allowed CHI to draft LaMarcus Aldridge (who they stupidly flipped for Tyrus Thomas) and Joakim Noah.

You could go with Tim Hardaway Jr. though... :)
 

HomeRunBaker

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Actually that was a trade which allowed CHI to draft LaMarcus Aldridge (who they stupidly flipped for Tyrus Thomas) and Joakim Noah.

You could go with Tim Hardaway Jr. though... :)
It wasn’t “really” a trade as Curry was a RFA agreeing to sign and go to NY. The Knicks gave up the pick (I think it may have been a swap) in agreeing to a sign-n-trade as they felt the Bulls would match despite Curry having been diagnosed with a heart condition.

The Knicks are gonna Knick.
 

jon abbey

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It wasn’t “really” a trade as Curry was a RFA agreeing to sign and go to NY. The Knicks gave up the pick (I think it may have been a swap) in agreeing to a sign-n-trade as they felt the Bulls would match despite Curry having been diagnosed with a heart condition.

The Knicks are gonna Knick.
Yeah, I mean he was only 22, and he did lead the league in points in the paint at least one season in NY, but yeah, disastrous.

It has been funny to see some of the much maligned (and mostly rightly so) Isiah acquisitions from that era, Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph are still around a decade after NY dumped them (well, Z-Bo was DFAd last month but close enough). He drafted Trevor Ariza with the #43 pick in 2004, there's a good chance in retrospect that he (Isiah) was the best GM NY has had in the last 20 years.

So yeah, the Knicks are gonna Knick.
 

edoug

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there's a good chance in retrospect that he (Isiah) was the best GM NY has had in the last 20 years.

So yeah, the Knicks are gonna Knick.
Wow that's the saddest thing I've read on this site, relatively speaking
 

jon abbey

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I don't even think it's the saddest thing posted here today, but here's the GM list for the last 20 years:

 

Big John

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You forgot interim GM Ed Tapscott, who I believe was responsible for taking Frederic Weiss in 1999 instead of Artest or James Posey. But hey, if Tapscott had drafted better, would anyone still remember le dunk de la mort?
 

Sam Ray Not

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And to think, just one pick earlier in ‘09 and they could be whispering these words of wisdom...

 

jon abbey

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I will also eternally be convinced they would have gotten Westbrook if Donnie Walsh hadn’t talked him up incessantly going into the draft. I don’t care if this is rational or not.
 

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I will also eternally be convinced they would have gotten Westbrook if Donnie Walsh hadn’t talked him up incessantly going into the draft. I don’t care if this is rational or not.
You’re a Knicks fan. Nothing you criticize the Knicks about is irrational. What a putrid couple of decades.
 

benhogan

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While not a Patriots fan, I've always thought a small part of their success was playing in the pathetic AFC East.

James Dolan needs to tune out the naysayers, the Knicks are his birthright.

Other gifts the Knicks organization have given us:
-Ernie Grunfeld. The Wizards are set up for many years of patheticness
-Pat Riley has Miami on the mediocrity train for the foreseeable future
-We need Van Gundy, Marc Jackson and Isiah to get their hands on some other Eastern Conf teams

More Knicks lineage in the East... not less!
 

jon abbey

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The Mitchell Robinson stats are crazy, he is probably the best shotblocker in the league right now and he turned 21 yesterday. His BLK/36 is 4.5, Myles Turner is second at 3.4.

"With six games left, the Knicks’ second-round pick is on pace to become the first rookie in NBA history to average at least 2.4 blocks per game while shooting 60 percent from the field.

His current average of 2.45 blocks is the highest for a rookie since Tim Duncan’s 1997-98 mark of 2.51 per game for first-year players who played at least 40 contests.

Knicks coach David Fizdale is particularly enamored with Robinson’s shot-blocking for two reasons: 1. On most of his blocks the Knicks gain possession; and 2. He’s never seen anyone block so many 3-point shots. Indeed, Robinson’s 22 blocked 3-point attempts this season are the most by any NBA player in a season in at least 20 years."

https://nypost.com/2019/04/02/mitchell-robinson-didnt-have-your-traditional-21st-birthday/
 

TripleOT

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I saw Robinson in person early in the season when the scrubs on the Knicks beat the Celtics in Boston and was stunned. I liked him as a pick for Boston if he slipped that far, but IIRC there was talk the Lakers were high on him at 25, but went with Mo Wagner. In Boston he made a huge impact on the game, and 16 minutes had 6 blocks to go with his 4-4 from the field and 4 rebounds. He's 7'1" tall, but moves, runs, and jumps very well.
 

Big John

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The Knicks lucked out on Robinson. There were certainly question marks after he left Western Kentucky (twice) and then pulled out of the draft combine at the last minute.
 

NickEsasky

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Wasn't Paul George to the Lakers a "done deal" until it wasn't?
 

Sam Ray Not

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Ric Bucher is full of shit even by the low standards of the daily sports talking heads. He's basically re-heating sauces from three-month saucecans found in Chris Broussard's dumpster.
 

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Ric Bucher is full of shit even by the low standards of the daily sports talking heads. He's basically re-heating sauces from three-month saucecans found in Chris Broussard's dumpster.
He is also parroting Simmons who seems hell bent on telling anyone who listens to him that Durant will be a Knick.

Once again, the narrative that Knicks fans are so thirsty that they will love him unconditionally also seems a stretch. All one needs to do is look at the Sox gamethreads this year to realize that a demanding fanbase gets impatient very quickly, even when their team wins.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Wasn't Paul George to the Lakers a "done deal" until it wasn't?
Did any reputable writer ever report this? I’m asking seriously as I don’t recall.

Wasn't AD to the LAL a done deal?
This was absolutely never reported. There were even some here whose opinion was that the Pelicans would never trade him to LA due to the broken relationships and it being interconference.
 

benhogan

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Did any reputable writer ever report this? I’m asking seriously as I don’t recall.



This was absolutely never reported. There were even some here whose opinion was that the Pelicans would never trade him to LA due to the broken relationships and it being interconference.
I think NickEsasky and Jimbodandy are being sarcastic.

but agree with you...it was never close. Dell Demps didn't even pick up Magic's phone calls or return messages until days later. It appeared like the Lakers/Klutch tampered and a small market team like the Pels had enough of being bullied
 
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cheech13

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He is also parroting Simmons who seems hell bent on telling anyone who listens to him that Durant will be a Knick.

Once again, the narrative that Knicks fans are so thirsty that they will love him unconditionally also seems a stretch. All one needs to do is look at the Sox gamethreads this year to realize that a demanding fanbase gets impatient very quickly, even when their team wins.
To be fair, Simmons was on the Lebron to the Lakers story a year before he signed and well before any other writer touched the rumor. He's earned some credibility on stuff like this. KD to the Knicks may not be a done deal, but it definitely seems like it might be the most plausible outcome.
 

HomeRunBaker

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To be fair, Simmons was on the Lebron to the Lakers story a year before he signed and well before any other writer touched the rumor. He's earned some credibility on stuff like this. KD to the Knicks may not be a done deal, but it definitely seems like it might be the most plausible outcome.
I don’t know if Simmons still has agent sources or those in the front office but back in the early and mid-2000’s he certainly did. He had the Ricky Davis trade on our private board at the old StuckOn16 confirmed two days before it was announced and not a peep of it anywhere else.
 

BigSoxFan

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Tinfoil hat time:

Any chance Simmons, a Celtics fan, keeps spewing the Durant to NY story in the hope that Durant, a sensitive dude, gets sick of the attention and decides against it?

No? Ok, I’ll see myself out now.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Eh, seems about as likely as Simmons having clairvoyance about a decision Durant may well not even have made.
 

NickEsasky

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I was being sarcastic but it wasn’t directed at HRB. I just think it’s funny that everyone in the media seems to think they know what these guys are going to do even though they are wrong so much. I’ll believe Durant to the Knicks when it happens. Until then, I’m going to be incredibly skeptical.
 

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To be fair, Simmons was on the Lebron to the Lakers story a year before he signed and well before any other writer touched the rumor. He's earned some credibility on stuff like this. KD to the Knicks may not be a done deal, but it definitely seems like it might be the most plausible outcome.
It may well happen but I am with NickEssasky and his vertigo - lets see what happens in the playoffs, the draft and how other moves shake out.

Also, the Knicks are still owned by Charles Dolan whom Simmons had selling the team back before the Allstar break. That may well happen too but until it does, Dolan's capacity for interfering and alienating players should not be discounted too much.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I was being sarcastic but it wasn’t directed at HRB. I just think it’s funny that everyone in the media seems to think they know what these guys are going to do even though they are wrong so much. I’ll believe Durant to the Knicks when it happens. Until then, I’m going to be incredibly skeptical.
Durant has seemed miserable all season long in Oakland. It wouldn’t surprise me to hear that Draymond was the cancer on that team dividing everyone but I would be surprised if he returned to Oakland.