2019 Game Goat Thread: Wk. 9 at Ravens

Van Everyman

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Jackson dominated the Patriots last night. I find this line of argument super-weird. It's like the kind of sour grapes non-Pats fans have when the Patriots beat them and they say Brady just checked it down all night.
I'm not disagreeing with you ... Jackson absolutely did dominate the Pats. But it wasn't wire-to-wire by any stretch. There was a period near the end of the 2nd quarter were as bad as the Patriots had played in the 1Q, it was almost a complete reversal in yards and TOP. The reason the final score ended up as big as it was was bc the Ravens adjusted to the Pats adjustments (or the D got tired).

But all that said? Jackson's throwing mechanics--like a lot of run-first college players--leave a lot to be desired. He's got the best running vision and athleticism of them all, but as a passer he's not remotely on the level of a Mahomes or even Watson. I don't think that's sour grapes -- it's just a fact.

As for the offense needing to work on 20+ plays, I agree with you -- I wouldn't be surprised if the problem with running Dorsett out of the slot right now is that they added Sanu to the mix and that's where I gather he's historically most comfortable. And obviously you already have Edelman playing at least part-time in that role as well.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Key for Pats — show us how good you are the next 4 games.
I'm at the point in my Patriots/BB fandom where I'm not even sure is this is "key." Although it would of course be extremely annoying and frustrating, even if the Pats go 1-3 in the next 4 games and finish 12-4, they are still likely to get a bye and would even have a decent chance at the 1-seed depending on tiebreakers and the like, and then they'd be in basically the same exact position as last year when I don't think many really expected them to pull off the run they did. The schedule this year is so weird that we were inevitably going to get a lot of "Pats are the best team ever" takes in the first half and are now going to get a lot of "the Pats are total frauds" takes even if the Pats go, say, 2-2 over the next four.

Put another way - as long as they are set up well for the playoffs (i.e., the are able to get a bye and haven't suffered any additional critical injuries) I'll be as confident in this year's iteration as I have been in years past come playoff time. The obvious wild card here is OL health - if Wynn has a setback or gets re-injured, or if there's another OL injury, that could be backbreaking to the Pats (and Mason needs to improve as well - his decline this year has been really weird, I wonder if he is dealing with a nagging injury that they just need him to play through because of their lack of depth already).
 

TFisNEXT

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It sucks more that White tripped on his own than any "almost no contact" that happened after. White scores easy if he doesn't trip and the game is tied at 17 at the half.
 

cornwalls@6

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Goats: Defense/Coaching - Utterly unprepared for Jackson, and the Ravens attack in general, particularly in the first quarter. That said, if they get another crack at them in January, I would expect a much better effort, both in terms of scheme and execution.

Edelman's fumble - It really was a back-breaker. As noted by others posters, they were moving it at will, and if they finish that drive off with a score, I think it changes the entire tone of the game.

People who are aghast, aghast I say, about the game thread last night - It's almost like some of you have never been in a game thread before.


Lone Bright spot: Sanu. Already looks pretty well integrated into the offense, and will become an even bigger factor as the season moves on. Just an outstanding acquisition.


In summary: Very bad effort from the coaching staff on down, no way to sugarcoat it. But, by no means a harbinger of the rest of the season. The bye comes at a good time. Hopefully Harry will be ready to go and contribute against Philly, and hopefully Wynn gets good work in, with no setbacks, is as good as we hope he is, and can shore up the O-line when he returns, which remains my biggest concern for this team.
 

joe dokes

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Knee possibly being down was not relevant as White fell on his own (no defender involved), but that replay of the defender's toe denting White's shoulder seemed pretty definitive that he was stopped short of a TD.
You're right. IIRC, he was touched (again) while his knee was down, and I thought that's when it was close.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Goats: Defense/Coaching - Utterly unprepared for Jackson, and the Ravens attack in general, particularly in the first quarter.
A lot of people have said this but how, exactly, is the failure on the coaching and not the players? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm fully willing to believe the scheme could have been more effective but I don't think I've actually seen anyone explain precisely how yet. From my relatively uneducated eyes it just looked like the DL was getting pushed around by the Ravens' OL and the linebackers were a bit too slow on occasion and made just enough mental mistakes in terms of losing contain or diverting from their lanes to allow Jackson to find enough escape routes.
 

bakahump

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Just because this defense isnt the 99 Ravens Defense doesnt mean its not a historic Defense. That was a pretty high bar (which they are still close too). Being top 10 all times is pretty f'ing good.

Edelmans fumble was huge. Brady doesnt get credit for his past heroics after a bad game, neither does jules. The fumble was a 14 point swing (as they were moving the ball very well......10 pt if your really negative). Killer and biggest goat. I still love him and wouldnt want him any where else. But big horns for Jules.

We say the game didnt come down to a few plays. I disagree 3 pts instead of 7 on the encroachment. The Edelman Fumble. And the Pick on the 4th down play which if I recall led to a TD. Thats 18 points..

I worried after the first quarter if the D would run out of gas, and it certainly looked like they did even with the 2-3rd quarter respites. I wonder if being so good so far has left them a little winded on games where they play alot of snaps.

2 balls that could have been picked.

I also think that Cover 0 with (JC Jackson?? I think as) a spy last night was the most effective defense Seems like they used it a couple times. Had Van Noy sealed the inside....and forced Jackson to go around him to the outside good chance help arrives.

The Boogey Men are Big and sure tacklers (though even that was pretty shaky last nigh against Ingram). They are not fast. That hurt not only with Jackson but the No Name TEs that killed us. Hightower looked like he was running in mud again on coverage.

Finally Gilmore had a poor game against Hollywood. If you game plan for Gilmore Island and he doesnt hold up thats gonna hurt ya.

Jackson is sublime, but I wonder if the "all in" Harbaugh plan is gonna work long term. I also wonder (as we see in college [thats why they have numerous backups just as talented] and the Pros) if having your MOST IMPORTANT guy get hit 20 times a game every game is a plan for long term success. Telling me "He hasnt been hurt yet! So he knows how to duck and dodge" Doesnt pass the smell test. He is going to get hit and hurt. A 212lb guy cannot absorb that kind of punishment. And it will happen Later in the season...just about the time you really need a dynamic ready to go guy in the playoffs.
 

Euclis20

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Random stat from last night: Both the Pats and Ravens ran 65 offensive plays, but the Ravens dominated the TOP, 37-23.

Ingram and Jackson ran for 176 yards on 5.7 yards per carry. That's it, that's the game. The Edelman fumble was brutal, but it didn't kill them, and he had an excellent game otherwise.

Silver lining: Sanu looked great. It might have been better balance if either Gordon or Brown had worked out, but Sanu/Edelman/White are an excellent trio for an offense that lives on short quick passes.
 

Super Nomario

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I'm not disagreeing with you ... Jackson absolutely did dominate the Pats. But it wasn't wire-to-wire by any stretch. There was a period near the end of the 2nd quarter were as bad as the Patriots had played in the 1Q, it was almost a complete reversal in yards and TOP. The reason the final score ended up as big as it was was bc the Ravens adjusted to the Pats adjustments (or the D got tired).
The Patriots did force two punts in this stretch but the big reason for this was the two fumbles. The Ravens didn't literally score every time they got the ball last night but it was about as close as it gets at the NFL level.

As for the offense needing to work on 20+ plays, I agree with you -- I wouldn't be surprised if the problem with running Dorsett out of the slot right now is that they added Sanu to the mix and that's where I gather he's historically most comfortable. And obviously you already have Edelman playing at least part-time in that role as well.
I think this is right but they still need to find a way to mix things up. The only two pass plays over 20 yards they had last night were to Edelman and White.

It sucks more that White tripped on his own than any "almost no contact" that happened after. White scores easy if he doesn't trip and the game is tied at 17 at the half.
This is who White is. He is about as great as you can be as a RB having terrible contact balance.
 

BaseballJones

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Jackson and the unique Ravens' offense present challenges to anyone, especially if they get a lead. This is not the kind of team you want to fall behind against. They had two weeks to prepare. They were at home. This was their "Super Bowl". And the Pats made a number of uncharacteristic errors that you just can't count on. I mean, who counts on a free four points thanks to a defensive offside on a field goal attempt? Even jumping out to a 17-0 lead, the Pats were a foot away from being tied at 17. And then after the Edelman fumble, the Pats came roaring right back down the field to get back into the game again.

Long story short: the Ravens deserved to win, but let's not pretend that there's some "blueprint" here, or that the Pats can't win a rematch. Not only could they; I fully would expect them to win a rematch, especially if it's at Gillette.

But this is about the goat of last night's game, and I'll give thumbs-down to Newhouse. Hard to blame Edelman, because (1) the guy goes all out every play and that was a freak occurrence, and (2) even after that, the Pats came right back down to score again, so that fumble yes cost them but they had gotten right back into it. I'll also give a thumbs-down to the run defense, which got absolutely gashed all night long.

I thought Brady for the most part was fine. Sanu was excellent. Edelman was great minus, of course, the huge fumble. Sony was ok. White was really good. Even Folk did well.
 

BigSoxFan

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Goats: Defense/Coaching - Utterly unprepared for Jackson, and the Ravens attack in general, particularly in the first quarter. That said, if they get another crack at them in January, I would expect a much better effort, both in terms of scheme and execution.

Edelman's fumble - It really was a back-breaker. As noted by others posters, they were moving it at will, and if they finish that drive off with a score, I think it changes the entire tone of the game.

People who are aghast, aghast I say, about the game thread last night - It's almost like some of you have never been in a game thread before.


Lone Bright spot: Sanu. Already looks pretty well integrated into the offense, and will become an even bigger factor as the season moves on. Just an outstanding acquisition.


In summary: Very bad effort from the coaching staff on down, no way to sugarcoat it. But, by no means a harbinger of the rest of the season. The bye comes at a good time. Hopefully Harry will be ready to go and contribute against Philly, and hopefully Wynn gets good work in, with no setbacks, is as good as we hope he is, and can shore up the O-line when he returns, which remains my biggest concern for this team.
Hard to call Edelman's fumble a back breaker when the offense scored the very next possession to cut it to 24-20. It was definitely a huge swing though. Plenty of goat horns but I think the D shoulders most of the blame last night. They let the Ravens set the tone right away on a drive that chewed up like half the quarter and failed miserably when Brady and the offense got the Edelman fumble back. Even after that, they had a chance to make a stop in the 4th when it was just a 10 point game and once again couldn't do it.
 

EL Jeffe

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Baltimore was healthy, rested, and prepared coming off a bye. Playing at home, at night in front of an electric atmosphere. The Patriots were tired, banged up, and on the road. I'd like to think if they meet again in the playoffs, the Patriots will have a better plan. Personally, I would have liked to have seen more speed on the field with Chung essentially playing a LB role (he only played 27 snaps, I'm sure he's battling nagging injuries). The Patriots ILB struggle with sideline-to-sideline range (as seen in the Detroit debacle last year), so more speed closer to the LOS may have helped. (Ideally, Chung would have received a lot of Bentley and Roberts snaps).

Offensively, Newhouse had a rough game. That they've gone essentially the entire year with a street FA at LT is pretty remarkable. Pray for Wynn's health. Harry's size may have helped in the red zone; they really struggled to separate and he's a contested catch virtuoso. Still, the offense went stretches where it looked as good as it has all year.

I'm ridiculously curious what New England thought of Jackson coming out. Obviously they passed on him twice for Wynn and Michel, I wonder how seriously they considered #8.
 

cornwalls@6

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A lot of people have said this but how, exactly, is the failure on the coaching and not the players? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm fully willing to believe the scheme could have been more effective but I don't think I've actually seen anyone explain precisely how yet. From my relatively uneducated eyes it just looked like the DL was getting pushed around by the Ravens' OL and the linebackers were a bit too slow on occasion and made just enough mental mistakes in terms of losing contain or diverting from their lanes to allow Jackson to find enough escape routes.
I do think it's a combination of coaches and players, and didn't mean to imply that the players aren't to blame as well. The execution was pretty terrible at times, and they did lose some physical battles up front. But, I also think the mental mistakes you mention, the failures in both contain and gap control, are very much coaching points that didn't seem to get through strongly enough to prevent them from looking completely on their heels, particularly in the first quarter. Agree that there wasn't anything obvious schematically that jumped out, only that poor fundamental execution and mental mistakes are shared by players and coaches.
 

bakahump

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Oh and in the hurry up......just before the Jules Fumble. He was the F'ing man. I think he had had 2 big plays and a 3rd nice play. I saw him get up and thought he looks smoked. They should probably run it. They then threw the little dump and the fumble.

With so few "trustworthy" options (thank goodness Sanu looks like help) I think the "Patriot way" of keeping the WRs on the field play after play after play might need to be adjusted. In years past Brady could spread the ball around a bit more and Edelman or Gronk (or white) could take a play off before being ready for the next one. They "rested" their guys while still making the defense account for them. Other teams you See AJ Green get a big play and he comes off the field for a breather. I will go to my grave thinking "Edelman was smoked and never should have been the target for that fumble play" regardless of him being the best read.
 

DJnVa

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Hard to call Edelman's fumble a back breaker when the offense scored the very next possession to cut it to 24-20. It was definitely a huge swing though.
That play was the last time all game the Patriots had the ball and were within 1 score though. Getting back to within 4 quickly was nice, but we never again were driving with the chance to take the lead.
 

EL Jeffe

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Yes, Edelman was clearly gassed on the fumble play. Still, had they taken him out for a breather, it would have allowed Baltimore to substitute (by rule). They seemed just about as gassed, so I can see the Patriots' rationale for keeping him in. Baltimore made a great play. It happens.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Jackson dominated the Patriots last night. I find this line of argument super-weird. It's like the kind of sour grapes non-Pats fans have when the Patriots beat them and they say Brady just checked it down all night.
We're no different than anyone other fan base, except we have much less opportunity to show our true colors. But when they lose, it's the same progression as everyone else. Every turnover would have been a touchdown, every non-called penalty on the opponent would have stopped the drive for sure. Every but-for game script works out perfectly for the Patriots. When we still can't assemble the pieces for a win, plan B is to try to blame the refs. If that doesn't work, plan C is hopefully to find something the opposing fans did. If that doesn't work, the last option is to figure out a way the the other team or its fans weren't classy.

This is what every fan base does. We're just lucky that we don't need to resort to it too often.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Jackson is sublime, but I wonder if the "all in" Harbaugh plan is gonna work long term. I also wonder (as we see in college [thats why they have numerous backups just as talented] and the Pros) if having your MOST IMPORTANT guy get hit 20 times a game every game is a plan for long term success. Telling me "He hasnt been hurt yet! So he knows how to duck and dodge" Doesnt pass the smell test. He is going to get hit and hurt. A 212lb guy cannot absorb that kind of punishment. And it will happen Later in the season...just about the time you really need a dynamic ready to go guy in the playoffs.
This is an interesting question and no one knows the answer but one thing - just because LJ is running 15 times a game does not mean he's getting hit 20 times a game. A lot of his runs and scrambles go out of bounds or have him giving himself up. Brady got hit 10 times last night, which may have been more actual hits than LJ took.

DeShaun Watson takes way more punishment than LJ does. So did Joe Flacco on the Broncos from what little I saw.

Just something to think about.
 

TFisNEXT

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Hard to call Edelman's fumble a back breaker when the offense scored the very next possession to cut it to 24-20. It was definitely a huge swing though. Plenty of goat horns but I think the D shoulders most of the blame last night. They let the Ravens set the tone right away on a drive that chewed up like half the quarter and failed miserably when Brady and the offense got the Edelman fumble back. Even after that, they had a chance to make a stop in the 4th when it was just a 10 point game and once again couldn't do it.
The Edelman fumble was a massive swing. Yeah the defense puked on itself after the offense came back down and scored to make it a 4 point game again....but if Edelman doesn't fumble, you're looking at Baltimore ball either with a 3 point Patriots lead or a 1 point deficit instead of a Baltimore 4 point lead. The complexion of the game is different.

BTW, I agree the defense is the biggest goat still, they were utterly useless in the 2nd half with the game still in doubt...but that Edelman play was a monster dagger to overcome.
 

Marbleheader

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I'm taking the loss in perspective. It won't be long before the Patriots are just another team in the NFL, likely for a while. They were bound to lose a couple. The bye is coming at a good time, injuries have piled up. I'll never get on Julian, he's got a lifetime pass from me. 8-1 is pretty damn good. Are there reasons for concern? Sure, but I'm still confident they'll figure it out.
 

Ed Hillel

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No goats for me, it was a shitty all around effort. Glad we faced them once in the regular season, important experience, should a more meaningful game occur.
 

RedOctober3829

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The Ravens did not run many RPO's last night. Some just mistake RPO's for a spread running attack which is what primarily the Ravens ran. What the Ravens did last night was just run the ball right down the Patriots' throat and there was not much they did about it. It's another form of a power running game except you have to account for the most athletic QB in the league. In a normal pro-style offense, the defense can try to be aggressive slanting or rushing upfield run blitzing because there is just the RB to worry about so if you are fortunate enough to be right the ball carrier is right there for you. In the offense the Ravens run, the aggressiveness can be used against a defense. Too many times last night the Patriots got caught up field on a fake handoff. Too many times the ends got cut blocked or washed back inside and the edge was wide open. Too many times the LB's blitzed a gap and were wrong which left gaping holes. Other times, the DT's just got blown 3-4 yards off the ball. Just an all-around trainwreck for a quarter and a half. They cleaned some things up later, but still not good enough.
 

BigSoxFan

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The Edelman fumble was a massive swing. Yeah the defense puked on itself after the offense came back down and scored to make it a 4 point game again....but if Edelman doesn't fumble, you're looking at Baltimore ball either with a 3 point Patriots lead or a 1 point deficit instead of a Baltimore 4 point lead. The complexion of the game is different.

BTW, I agree the defense is the biggest goat still, they were utterly useless in the 2nd half with the game still in doubt...but that Edelman play was a monster dagger to overcome.
I think we’re basically in the same place. I just view back breaker as plays that basically end games. The game didn’t end when they went down 24-13 with 1.5 quarters to go. I don’t believe for one second that the D all of a sudden stops Jackson better if they are up 3 vs down 4. I doubt Harbaugh changes it up much and what was working probably would have continued to work. The biggest impact was obviously keeping the game out of Brady’s hands.
 

loshjott

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This is an interesting question and no one knows the answer but one thing - just because LJ is running 15 times a game does not mean he's getting hit 20 times a game. A lot of his runs and scrambles go out of bounds or have him giving himself up. Brady got hit 10 times last night, which may have been more actual hits than LJ took.

DeShaun Watson takes way more punishment than LJ does. So did Joe Flacco on the Broncos from what little I saw.

Just something to think about.
I was watching for that last night, given BB's old statement to stop the option by hitting the QB every play. Seemed like the option plays where he didn't end up the ball carrier, Jackson was doing a good job pitching early enough and veering away from the play so that any hits on him would be a clear personal foul. For running QBs he seems more like Russell Wilson who has done a great job staying healthy.
 

BaseballJones

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Rewatching the game, looking strictly to the penalties...

On the initial neutral zone infraction on Baltimore's first FG....it's not that the center lifts his head...it's that he raises his shoulders up too. That's absolutely a false start penalty and no wonder the Pats' DL (it was like 5 guys) all moved. The Pats got hosed on that call and it cost them four points.

The Butler neutral zone infraction that wasn't. Holy crap was this an awful call. He *flinched*. He didn't move forward. He didn't go anywhere near the neutral zone. He flinched. Then the left guard false started. What Butler did was 100% legal. But the refs got it 100% wrong. That gave Baltimore a first down on a drive that would end up resulting in a touchdown.

The intentional grounding penalty. It was 2nd and 5 from the Baltimore 33, 8:07 left in the half. A couple of items. First, Jimmy Smith chucks Dorsett 8 yards downfield. Yes, he's allowed to hold his ground, but he's not allowed to chuck the receiver. The announcers initially said, "That should at least be illegal contact." But second, it was an option route by Dorsett. Brady threw the ball *before Dorsett made his break*. Brady read "outside" and Dorsett read "inside". By the time the ball landed, Dorsett was 15 yards away. But I get the rule, but how can that be intentional grounding when it's an option route and Brady and Dorsett simply have different reads on the play? It's a lunatic way of reading the rule. The only QB I've ever seen get penalized for that kind of thing is Brady and it happens regularly with him and it's infuriating.

McCourty's illegal hands to the face. 3rd and 7, Jackson is looking right the whole way, throws incomplete, not even close. A very brief contact with the receiver's face mask - no grab, no push, just a quick swipe across - is enough for the refs to throw the flag. First down, Ravens. Ugh. Letter of the law probably a correct call but that kind of contact happens ALL the time without a flag.

The illegal pick play. 4 yards downfield, reminiscent of the KC pick play that didn't get called in last year's AFCCG. Helped them convert a key 4th and 4, when it should have been 4th and 14 and Baltimore punting, giving the Pats, who had momentum at that point, the ball back. When it's that obvious, that far downfield....egregious missed call, led to a touchdown.

The Pats played terribly in many ways last night. This isn't to say they played really well. But these were all calls that ended up with a significant impact on the game. So frustrating.
 

wilked

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Many people saying white tripped on his own

Didn't he step on a lineman's foot who was being pushed backward? Do I remember that correctly?

I mean it sucks to trip, but it isn't like he just fell on his own. He went to plant expecting solid ground and got unsolid ground where he didn't expect it. Like walking down a set of stairs and you think you're at the bottom but there is one more stair - you stumble
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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One of the bizarre things about this game on offense is that we had almost no personnel variation at all other than at the RB spot. It was 11 personnel the entire game. Sanu, Watson, and Jules played every snap while Dorsett played every snap except one in which Meyers came into the game. No two back sets, no two TE sets, and no mixing up the WRs at all to give the DBs different looks. Even down by the goal line we never went heavy.

Running the hurry up clearly contributed to this as well as injuries. But it was a very unPatriot like way to approach a game on the offensive side of the ball. Frankly, I hope we don't see it again.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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This is an interesting question and no one knows the answer but one thing - just because LJ is running 15 times a game does not mean he's getting hit 20 times a game. A lot of his runs and scrambles go out of bounds or have him giving himself up. Brady got hit 10 times last night, which may have been more actual hits than LJ took.

DeShaun Watson takes way more punishment than LJ does. So did Joe Flacco on the Broncos from what little I saw.

Just something to think about.
I'd argue that Brady taking 10 (or however many) hits in the pocket is far less dangerous than LJ getting popped and/or squashed going at full speed just once by someone like Dont'a Hightower. He took at least one hit last night that looked extremely awkward when two players (including DH) converged on him at once. I don't think it is necessarily a cumulative thing rather than just the type of hits you are randomly subjected to as a running QB.

In terms of "safe" running at the QB position there is Russell Wilson and then everyone else.
 

Super Nomario

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One of the bizarre things about this game on offense is that we had almost no personnel variation at all other than at the RB spot. It was 11 personnel the entire game. Sanu, Watson, and Jules played every snap while Dorsett played every snap except one in which Meyers came into the game. No two back sets, no two TE sets, and no mixing up the WRs at all to give the DBs different looks. Even down by the goal line we never went heavy.

Running the hurry up clearly contributed to this as well as injuries. But it was a very unPatriot like way to approach a game on the offensive side of the ball. Frankly, I hope we don't see it again.
They had Baltimore's defense on their heels in the third quarter with the hurry-up, but then the Ravens went on a 14-play offensive drive and the D was able to catch their breath. It could have paid dividends if the D could have made a stop in the second half. I think it was a good thought.
 

johnmd20

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Many people saying white tripped on his own

Didn't he step on a lineman's foot who was being pushed backward? Do I remember that correctly?

I mean it sucks to trip, but it isn't like he just fell on his own. He went to plant expecting solid ground and got unsolid ground where he didn't expect it. Like walking down a set of stairs and you think you're at the bottom but there is one more stair - you stumble
He definitely tripped on a lineman's foot.
 

lars10

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To me.. yes it was a crappy game and nobody played particularly well BUT..

In the second half the Ravens D was clearly getting gassed. The Pats figured something out and were pretty much walking down the field at will. The play I don't get is the bomb to Sanu on something like 3rd and 4? Your D has been on the field a lot and you have a good sustained drive going... why do you throw deep there when your crossing patterns and short stuff is working?

Also.. how many screens or passes to the RBs are we running? They definitely gave up on the run because of the score..but I also don't feel like we've been doing a lot of those plays this season where one RB fakes a screen right and Brady throws it he opposite way to the other RB who leaked out on the back side or plays to that effect. This offense is still gelling..and by the playoffs they could be legit.. especially if Burkhead and White are fully healthy and the OLine is back in shape. If Watson can contribute anything the Pats should be able to score on anyone.

The D got their wake-up call.. and now they'll have to show up every week and prove the doubters wrong... burn those t-shirts and sweatshirts and get back to work. They face some tough teams, but the two scariest are KC and Houston.. Dallas and Philly are enigmas this year.. and Philly's receivers have been getting hurt every week and Wentz hasn't been fully himself this year.. that offense can be shut down. I expect BB takes Ertz out of the game and forces Wentz to throw to Agholor or whomever. Dallas too has been enigmatic.. take out Zeke and force Prescott to throw.. put Gillmore on Cooper with safety help and I expect this D to hold them in check.

The Cleveland game showed signs that this D has holes.. they were lucky to get Chubb to fumble and get a few picks... Time for them to get back to work and earn back their reputation.
 

Super Nomario

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In the second half the Ravens D was clearly getting gassed. The Pats figured something out and were pretty much walking down the field at will. The play I don't get is the bomb to Sanu on something like 3rd and 4? Your D has been on the field a lot and you have a good sustained drive going... why do you throw deep there when your crossing patterns and short stuff is working?
Are you talking about the interception? That was 3rd-and-10, Brady was getting hit, so he just threw one up deep.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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They had Baltimore's defense on their heels in the third quarter with the hurry-up, but then the Ravens went on a 14-play offensive drive and the D was able to catch their breath. It could have paid dividends if the D could have made a stop in the second half. I think it was a good thought.
I agree completely (as I noted, the hurry up was a big contributing factor) but that is far from the whole story here. They played exclusively 11 personnel with the same trio of wideouts throughout the first half. And in some of the goal line sequences on few drives they slowed down the tempo and weren't really going no huddle, but they never substituted in those spots.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Goats: Defense/Coaching - Utterly unprepared for Jackson, and the Ravens attack in general, particularly in the first quarter. That said, if they get another crack at them in January, I would expect a much better effort, both in terms of scheme and execution.
I don't think there's any evidence that this team is ever unprepared, however the early gameplan seemed to be to use a LB rotation that heavily featured Roberts and Bentley as run "stuffers" and that was a complete failure. They kept getting lost in the wash and were totally out of position several times. The long Ingram run and the subsequent TD were almost entirely on Bentley. The D stabilized for the most part once they got left on the bench, until late in the game when they started getting more snaps as the D got tired and things kinda went to shit again.
 

lars10

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They had Baltimore's defense on their heels in the third quarter with the hurry-up, but then the Ravens went on a 14-play offensive drive and the D was able to catch their breath. It could have paid dividends if the D could have made a stop in the second half. I think it was a good thought.
Just agreed with this. The pats tend to use the hurry up in situations like last night..correct? Especially against teams like Baltimore. Get them in the personnel you want and then punish their LBs... keeps them from blitzing and forces them to cover RBs coming out of the backfield etc. The more you can keep them from subbing, the better.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Also.. how many screens or passes to the RBs are we running? They definitely gave up on the run because of the score..but I also don't feel like we've been doing a lot of those plays this season where one RB fakes a screen right and Brady throws it he opposite way to the other RB who leaked out on the back side or plays to that effect. This offense is still gelling..and by the playoffs they could be legit.. especially if Burkhead and White are fully healthy and the OLine is back in shape. If Watson can contribute anything the Pats should be able to score on anyone.
You need two RBs on the field for that.
 

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I'd argue that Brady taking 10 (or however many) hits in the pocket is far less dangerous than LJ getting popped and/or squashed going at full speed just once by someone like Dont'a Hightower. He took at least one hit last night that looked extremely awkward when two players (including DH) converged on him at once. I don't think it is necessarily a cumulative thing rather than just the type of hits you are randomly subjected to as a running QB.

In terms of "safe" running at the QB position there is Russell Wilson and then everyone else.
And in fact this is what we've consistently seen over the past twenty plus years in the NFL. There have been a lot of quarterbacks who ran a fair amount (K. Stewart, Vick, Robert Griffin, Kaep, Cam Newton, even Luck) and those players have tended to have injuries and reduced effectiveness as runners and in many cases relatively short careers. But the fact that running Qbs get beat up pretty good over a career doesn't really help you in your next game if the other team does have a healthy qb who can run as well as Jackson can.
 

Super Nomario

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I agree completely (as I noted, the hurry up was a big contributing factor) but that is far from the whole story here. They played exclusively 11 personnel with the same trio of wideouts throughout the first half. And in some of the goal line sequences on few drives they slowed down the tempo and weren't really going no huddle, but they never substituted in those spots.
Going with bigger personnel down by the goal line hasn't really been effective either, and obviously they don't have any extra FB, TE, or OL who are worth putting in the game.
 

Prodigal Sox

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Many people saying white tripped on his own

Didn't he step on a lineman's foot who was being pushed backward? Do I remember that correctly?

I mean it sucks to trip, but it isn't like he just fell on his own. He went to plant expecting solid ground and got unsolid ground where he didn't expect it. Like walking down a set of stairs and you think you're at the bottom but there is one more stair - you stumble
His left foot (toes) hit the OLman's foot right has he was making his cut to score. Essentially he tripped because his left foot hit a wall.
 

lars10

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I agree completely (as I noted, the hurry up was a big contributing factor) but that is far from the whole story here. They played exclusively 11 personnel with the same trio of wideouts throughout the first half. And in some of the goal line sequences on few drives they slowed down the tempo and weren't really going no huddle, but they never substituted in those spots.
Good points. Will be interesting to see how they play when Meyers and Harry are involved and able to get more snaps.. Wonder if they'll rotate in more when Brady is a bit more comfortable with them. Also think Sanu is going to be a huge weapon as he gets more plays under his belt.

The injuries to the TEs has limited the number of plays they can run at the moment as well until they're up to speed..no?
 

Joe D Reid

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Baltimore was healthy, rested, and prepared coming off a bye. Playing at home, at night in front of an electric atmosphere. The Patriots were tired, banged up, and on the road. I'd like to think if they meet again in the playoffs, the Patriots will have a better plan. Personally, I would have liked to have seen more speed on the field with Chung essentially playing a LB role (he only played 27 snaps, I'm sure he's battling nagging injuries). The Patriots ILB struggle with sideline-to-sideline range (as seen in the Detroit debacle last year), so more speed closer to the LOS may have helped. (Ideally, Chung would have received a lot of Bentley and Roberts snaps).
The hope is that the bye had a lot to do with it. For all his relentless priggery, Harbaugh is a good coach. I will be curious if over the course of the next few days we see some articles breaking down new blocking wrinkles they installed for this game over the bye.

You'd have to imagine that the offense is going to be inconsistent over the next few weeks as well. Getting Harry and Wynn back is great, but you're dropping two more-or-less rookies into the team along with another new starter in Sanu. There will be more talent on the field but probably less cohesion for a while.

All of which is a long way of saying that the real goal is to have the offense squared away by the end of the season and to trust that the defense got caught by an unusual team running an unusual game plan. Neither of those is certain but both are reasonable.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Going with bigger personnel down by the goal line hasn't really been effective either, and obviously they don't have any extra FB, TE, or OL who are worth putting in the game.
In past games they've certainly tried to mix it up more, throwing in a fair number of two TE and two RB sets.

Maybe they've come to a decision that its no longer worth trying to vary personnel because the rest of their skill positions players just stink and they can't run the ball anyway. But, if so, that doesn't bode very well for the rest of the season.

Anyway, my larger point is simply that this is a noteworthy change in strategy.
 

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The 18 yard 3rd down conversion about halfway thru the 3rd quarter was a huge play. Andrews was defended well, and there was pressure in Jackson's face. It was a throw to the only spot a difficult catch could get made by the receiver. They force a punt there and the offense gets right back to work with a chance to take the lead. On my phone so I can't link the video, but TOP was essentially even at that point but they never recovered. It took a lot of wind out of the defense's sails.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Given the disaster that Newhouse has been, perhaps the Pats were too quick to put Wynn on IR with the turf toe. The NFL's arcane IR rules hamper all teams, but possibly getting Wynn back a couple of games early may have been worth the risk.
 

Super Nomario

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In past games they've certainly tried to mix it up more, throwing in a fair number of two TE and two RB sets.

Maybe they've come to a decision that its no longer worth trying to vary personnel because the rest of their skill positions players just stink and they can't run the ball anyway. But, if so, that doesn't bode very well for the rest of the season.

Anyway, my larger point is simply that this is a noteworthy change in strategy.
I think there had to be something from a game-planning perspective that made them think Baltimore would be especially vulnerable to this offensive approach - maybe tiring out the pass rush, maybe keeping them from rotating new acquisition Peters and returning-from-injury Jimmy Smith. I wouldn't necessarily expect it every week. Ultimately I think the O worked about as well as it's been working all year, i.e., frustratingly inconsistent. I'm not convinced getting Izzo or Eluemunor or Meyers more snaps would have made much difference.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I think there had to be something from a game-planning perspective that made them think Baltimore would be especially vulnerable to this offensive approach - maybe tiring out the pass rush, maybe keeping them from rotating new acquisition Peters and returning-from-injury Jimmy Smith. I wouldn't necessarily expect it every week. Ultimately I think the O worked about as well as it's been working all year, i.e., frustratingly inconsistent. I'm not convinced getting Izzo or Eluemunor or Meyers more snaps would have made much difference.
I agree with you. I just hope it isn't a harbinger of things to come and that they aren't giving up on making some other personnel packages work that would allow them to vary the offense more, especially with heavier personnel. Those kinds of packages haven't been very effective so far this year but the offense has a higher ceiling with more personnel variation IMO.