2019 Game Goat Thread: Wk. 9 at Ravens

TrotWaddles

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Edelman’s fumble hurt but Newhouse...OMG Newhouse is a disaster on virtually every play. Clausewitz had a concept called the “Schwerpunkt” which was the decisive point of attack or the position of main effort. Every defensive squad has his ass in the dead center of it.
 

cgrove13

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It's gotta be Edelman. His fumble completely and utterly changed the game. It was a backbreaker.

Tough to stick it to one guy for one play, but it was colossal.
Can someone with more knowledge than me say how Goatish the playcall was on that fumble? It looked like a screen with no blocking—saw that a few times last night and always looked dangerous. What is the thinking there?
 

dcmissle

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man I want to like Volin, but I just can't.
We know how this works: they build you up to tear you down. I’m not saying Volin did this, but many others, yes. Undefeated season. Lunatic arguments about the best defense ever. All the while, this 5-game stretch against good teams (and QBs like Jackson, Watson and Mahomes) loomed and all anyone had to do is withhold judgment a little bit.

But it’s more fun to crown their asses, then outfit them with horns at the signs of trouble.
 

j44thor

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Can someone with more knowledge than me say how Goatish the playcall was on that fumble? It looked like a screen with no blocking—saw that a few times last night and always looked dangerous. What is the thinking there?
Looked more like Brady/Jules audible when they realized a DL was on Jules not Humphrey for once. Of course Humphrey was playing just off. I thought the play looked terrible at first but you can reasonably expect Jules to beat a DL. Still didn't seem like a good decision from Brady at the time given the chunk plays the offense was picking up.
 

richgedman'sghost

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I would say one of the few positives tonight was Nick Folk. They were not any long kicks but he made them all. The offense got in a good flow until the Julian fumble. Overall I would give the offense a B.
I have to give @RedOctober3829 props. All week long he warned about the Ravens pistol offense and how it might be difficult to stop. In the first quarter it seemed like the defense was unprepared for the Ravens offense. The defense did seem to make adjustments in the second and third quarters but then got rolled over in the fourth. Overall I give the defense a D plus
The special teams performed well. As mentioned, Folk made all his kicks and the coverage team recovered the muff punt. Bolden had a nice return in the 4th (and recovered his own fumble ) . Overall the special teams got a B plus.
Coaching wise I thought the D came out unprepared and that's on the coaches. Bill also made a somewhat questionable decision to kick a field goal at the end of the half but with the Pats getting the second half kickoff and the offense rolling, it was a defensible decision. Coaching gets a C minus.
 

Byrdbrain

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Can someone with more knowledge than me say how Goatish the playcall was on that fumble? It looked like a screen with no blocking—saw that a few times last night and always looked dangerous. What is the thinking there?
It wasn't a screen, Edelman was an outlet receiver. Brady's 1st and maybe 2nd reads weren't available so he decided to go for a checkdown and see if Edleman could make the first guy miss and pick up a few yards. That happened but obviously then the fumble happened.

It wasn't a great play but it also wasn't Brady's fault.

The Goat was the defense and mainly the LBs it seemed to me.
In addition to not being able to stop the run game they also couldn't cover the Ravens 2nd and 3rd TEs who killed the Pats on multiple plays.
I don't think many teams will be able to do what the Ravens did on the ground but they can all trot out a few TEs and attempt to get them isolated on Hightower.

Edit: I didn't notice the guy on Jules was a DL, assuming that is true then j44thor is likely correct that it was just an adjustment on the fly between the two of them.
 

lexrageorge

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In some ways, this game reminded me a bit the first time the Pats faced Roethlisberger in 2004. Road game in hostile stadium. Staley and Bettis ran all over the defense, which had been one of the league's best going into that game. Even the final score of 34-20 was similar.

Defense gets the goat horns. Time will tell if this performance is indicative of any inherent weakness in the personnel, or if it will be remember simply as The Blip. Tight ends and Newhouse get the dishonorable mentions.
 

jsinger121

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In some ways, this game reminded me a bit the first time the Pats faced Roethlisberger in 2004. Road game in hostile stadium. Staley and Bettis ran all over the defense, which had been one of the league's best going into that game. Even the final score of 34-20 was similar.

Defense gets the goat horns. Time will tell if this performance is indicative of any inherent weakness in the personnel, or if it will be remember simply as The Blip. Tight ends and Newhouse get the dishonorable mentions.
Great reference and the games happened at about the same time in the season too.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I was drunk last night so I don't remember where I posted it, but when the Pats lose it's always more than just a fucking loss. Blueprint, mirage, the dynasty is over, Brady is done, he's not good anymore. I mean, I guess this is the price you pay when you fuck the entire league up for two decades, but it does get annoying.

They lost on the road to a good team who was coming off a bye. Almost any other team gets their doors blown off after the way they started, the Pats were actually in control of the game when Edelman fumbled, and really after that since they drove right down and scored again.

The entire defense gets my vote. Sure Jackson is good but he's not that good. I'm chalking it up to a bad day but I can't point to anyone on the defensive side of the ball who had a good game.

Edit: Also, on days like today it's good to keep things in perspective, I highly recommend everyone spend some time on TGG today.
 

johnmd20

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I was drunk last night so I don't remember where I posted it, but when the Pats lose it's always more than just a fucking loss. Blueprint, mirage, the dynasty is over, Brady is done, he's not good anymore. I mean, I guess this is the price you pay when you fuck the entire league up for two decades, but it does get annoying.

They lost on the road to a good team who was coming off a bye. Almost any other team gets their doors blown off after the way they started, the Pats were actually in control of the game when Edelman fumbled, and really after that since they drove right down and scored again.

The entire defense gets my vote. Sure Jackson is good but he's not that good. I'm chalking it up to a bad day but I can't point to anyone on the defensive side of the ball who had a good game.

Edit: Also, on days like today it's good to keep things in perspective, I highly recommend everyone spend some time on TGG today.
Jackson has 637 yards rushing in 8 games, for an average gain of 6.4 yards per carry. He's got 5 rushing TDs. He's got a passer rating of rating of over 95 so far this year, too.

Jesus fucking Christ, Jackson is that good.
 

TFisNEXT

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Edelman fumble was a killer. Hard to "blame" him though. He gave a great effort last night making a lot of tough catches.

Even though the Patriots cut it to 4 again soon after, without that fumble, they probably take a 20-17 lead and that changes the complexion of the game. If Baltimore punts next possession, do the patriots drive it right back down the field again (like they did after the fumble) and take a 27-17 lead? Who knows.

But that free defensive TD for Baltimore gave them breathing room. There's no doubt the defense laid a monster turd though after that point....it looked like they had figured out the Ravens offense from about the early 2nd quarter until late 3rd quarter. They had a chance to make a big stop multiple times and couldn't buy one.

There were a lot of ill-timed penalties and some flukey plays that didn't bounce their way (like the two deflected passes that were in the air for an enternity and weren't intercepted). But they also got their ass whipped several times and missed assignments on the RPO.

So despite the Edelman fumble being probably the worst point swing of the night, the defense still wear the goat helmet.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Jackson has 637 yards rushing in 8 games, for an average gain of 6.4 yards per carry. He's got 5 rushing TDs. He's got a passer rating of rating of over 95 so far this year, too.

Jesus fucking Christ, Jackson is that good.
Yes he's good, I'm not saying he's not. But he's not unstoppable. The Pats had no answer for him last night, so either the D isn't nearly as good as we thought, or they had a bad game. More likely its a combination of a great player having a great game, and the D having a bad game.
 

johnmd20

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Yes he's good, I'm not saying he's not. But he's not unstoppable. The Pats had no answer for him last night, so either the D isn't nearly as good as we thought, or they had a bad game. More likely its a combination of a great player having a great game, and the D having a bad game.
Nobody is unstoppable, that is true. But Lamar often makes it look like he is. He's having an elite season. It was odd to see the Pats D get thrashed, but it wasn't a shock.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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One positive is that this veteran D will learn a lot from this game when/if they meet again. There were more than a few jokes about how BB didn't want to leave anything on film (ridiculous) but the experience of facing this "one-of-a-kind" offense may prove to be quite valuable come playoffs.
I agree with this. I suspect BB will be studying this game a lot in the coming weeks, expecting to meet Lamar in the playoffs.

I mentioned this in the game thread but Lamar has beaten every team that has faced him (as a starter) for the first time except Mahomes, and it took a ridiculous 4th down conversion by Mahomes to do it. Chargers and Browns beat him the second time they saw him (CIN did not).

Interesting to see how this holds up.
 

Super Nomario

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Edelman fumble was a killer. Hard to "blame" him though. He gave a great effort last night making a lot of tough catches.

Even though the Patriots cut it to 4 again soon after, without that fumble, they probably take a 20-17 lead and that changes the complexion of the game. If Baltimore punts next possession, do the patriots drive it right back down the field again (like they did after the fumble) and take a 27-17 lead? Who knows.

But that free defensive TD for Baltimore gave them breathing room. There's no doubt the defense laid a monster turd though after that point....it looked like they had figured out the Ravens offense from about the early 2nd quarter until late 3rd quarter. They had a chance to make a big stop multiple times and couldn't buy one.

There were a lot of ill-timed penalties and some flukey plays that didn't bounce their way (like the two deflected passes that were in the air for an enternity and weren't intercepted). But they also got their ass whipped several times and missed assignments on the RPO.

So despite the Edelman fumble being probably the worst point swing of the night, the defense still wear the goat helmet.
The only reason it looked like the D played OK in the third quarter was because the Ravens offense didn't get the ball until halfway through. The Ravens scored TDs on their only two second-half possessions.
 

chilidawg

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The only reason it looked like the D played OK in the third quarter was because the Ravens offense didn't get the ball until halfway through. The Ravens scored TDs on their only two second-half possessions.
Yeah the Ravens first drive of the third Quarter was a back breaker. In spite of the fumble/TD it felt like we had the momentum, but the D couldn't get off the field.
 

Number45forever

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Just too many self-inflicted mistakes. That penalty on the opening drive to give Baltimore four points. The fumble. That was a really winnable game despite the opening onslaught by the Ravens.

Lamar is a problem, and he's probably going to get even better...assuming he stays healthy. Huge problem in the coming years.

FWIW, I thought Brady was pretty damn good in that game. They easily could have scored 20+ in the second half alone if just a few key plays went in the other direction.

Fuck it, enjoy the bye and regroup for a tough stretch immediately after. I'm still WAAAAY in on this Pats team.
 

Super Nomario

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Just too many self-inflicted mistakes. That penalty on the opening drive to give Baltimore four points. The fumble. That was a really winnable game despite the opening onslaught by the Ravens.
The Ravens also fumbled twice in the second quarter, leading to 10 Patriots points, which is the only reason they were even in the game at all. This was not a "one or two plays either way" game. The Pats got rolled last night.
 

DJnVa

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Edelman’s fumble was bad, but it was back to a 4 point game in two minutes.
Except one was a 4 point game with Pats driving to potentially take lead, the other was a 4 point game with Pats kicking off.


Offense seemed kind of vanilla. Edelman, Sanu, Dorsett, and Watson were on the field for every play (actually Dorsett missed one). Anyway, we were always going to lose one, and now they get BB yelling at them for 2 weeks and the media doing their thing.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The Pats got beat last night and it wasn't particularly close.

HOWEVER:

- False start on BAL center not called, leads to a TD.

- Intentional grounding called on Brady because his WR ran the wrong route.

- White crawls into end zone untouched. Called down.

- BAL picks up 4th down on obvious OPI pick play. Not called.

The officiating in this league remains a huge problem. They were BRUTAL last night.
 

CantKeepmedown

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I think most reasonable fans knew not to go to overboard with the Pats D considering the schedule they had played. And just in case they were reading their own press clippings, last night certainly brought them back down to earth. Belichick, while taking a lot of personal responsibility in public, will probably enjoy going over this film with those guys.

I actually felt much better about the offense. Seeing them go no huddle and really get into a groove was nice. They are capable of moving the ball, and moving it quickly. Still things to work on, but i think they'll be fine.

3-2 during this stretch is certainly acceptable and nobody should be surprised if we go 4-1. Most knew that Baltimore would present the biggest problem. They've always been a pain in the ass.

Losing sucks but I feel pretty good this morning. If we get to play them again, whether it's at Gillette or in Baltimore, I'm confident they'll plan and execute better.
 

DJnVa

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When they intro the teams they have their PFF ranks. Newhouse was something like 28 of 38. There's no way there's 10 worse. None.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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When they intro the teams they have their PFF ranks. Newhouse was something like 28 of 38. There's no way there's 10 worse. None.
He's killing them. I feel badly for him because the effort is there. He's not lazy, he's not out of shape, he's trying hard every play. He's just so clearly and severely limited as a player.

Wynn can't get back soon enough.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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We got outplayed and outcoached by a good team coming off a bye playing at home. Give credit to them but I don't think it portends much of anything regarding how the rest of the season will go. I'm happy that we got to see this team in the regular season for the first time rather than the playoffs.

I think BB will need to go back to the drawing board a bit to figure out how to deal with their running game if we see them again. This defense has succeeded by really attacking the line of scrimmage. That's most obvious against the pass, with our blitz percentage. But even in the running game, we've been trying to get upfield and disrupt plays a lot. The scheme last night was very much about holding ground until Jackson made decisions. While this is an understandable approach to dealing with the RPO in theory, there were just far too many plays where we didn't contact the runner until he was 4-5 yards past the LOS. At that point your LBs could be playing fantastic from a mental standpoint, filling every gap correctly, never getting tricked, and you're still in huge trouble because you're giving up 5+ on every run.

Its been said a million times but this team misses Gronk. They've got no big targets in the red zone (or at least no big targets they're comfortable enough giving a substantial role), the running game just isn't very good unless there is some kind of big advantage (the defense is gassed, the other team is playing dime, etc), and this offense really needs a TE that can be dangerous down the seam (ie, the Watson drop last night).
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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The Ravens also fumbled twice in the second quarter, leading to 10 Patriots points, which is the only reason they were even in the game at all. This was not a "one or two plays either way" game. The Pats got rolled last night.
Yep. Everyone focusing on the fumble, or penalties, or the decision not to go for the TD is just choosing not to see what was fairly clear. The idea that the Patriots were obviously going to score a TD in the opening drive of the second half or, even if they did that it was smooth sailing from there if they did, is just the shit we tell ourselves to pretend the game was more competitive than it was. The final score was a fair reflection of the game.
 

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We got outplayed and outcoached by a good team coming off a bye playing at home. Give credit to them but I don't think it portends much of anything regarding how the rest of the season will go. I'm happy that we got to see this team in the regular season for the first time rather than the playoffs.

I think BB will need to go back to the drawing board a bit to figure out how to deal with their running game if we see them again. This defense has succeeded by really attacking the line of scrimmage. Even in the running game, we've been trying to get upfield and disrupt plays. The scheme last night was very much about holding ground until Jackson made decisions, which is an understandable approach to dealing with the RPO but there were just far too many plays where we didn't contact the runner until he was 4-5 yards past the LOS. At that point your LBs could be playing fantastic from a mental standpoint, filling every gap correctly, never getting tricked, and you're still getting beat badly because you're giving up 5+ on every run.

Its been said a million times but this team misses Gronk. They've got no big targets in the red zone (or at least no big targets they're comfortable enough giving a substantial role), the running game just isn't very good unless there is some kind of big advantage (the defense is gassed, the other team is playing dime, etc), and this offense really needs a TE that can be dangerous down the seam (ie, the Watson drop last night).
I'm super annoyed Hollister scored the GW OT TD for Seattle yesterday. He did nothing here, when we could use a young TE worth a crap.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Yep. Everyone focusing on the fumble, or penalties, or the decision not to go for the TD is just choosing not to see what was fairly clear. The idea that the Patriots were obviously going to score a TD in the opening drive of the second half or, even if they did that it was smooth sailing from there if they did, is just the shit we tell ourselves to pretend the game was more competitive than it was. The final score was a fair reflection of the game.
They were cruising down the field when Edelman fumbled. Had he had and they scored a TD on that drive, they've got the lead and suddenly Jackson has to throw more.

That, and the horrible no-call on the OPI pick that allowed the Ravens to convert the 4th down, changed the entire game.

So I disagree.
 

dcmissle

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I agree with this. I suspect BB will be studying this game a lot in the coming weeks, expecting to meet Lamar in the playoffs.

I mentioned this in the game thread but Lamar has beaten every team that has faced him (as a starter) for the first time except Mahomes, and it took a ridiculous 4th down conversion by Mahomes to do it. Chargers and Browns beat him the second time they saw him (CIN did not).

Interesting to see how this holds up.
Lamar is channeling RGIII’s rookie season, except he is better than RGIII and unlike RGIII is truly dedicated to becoming a good pocket passer. It’s a work in progress.

Lamar is not the beginning and end of all things for us. He easily could get beaten by the Chiefs in the post, and the Pats could then have their way with KC. Football is a game of matchups.

Key for Pats — show us how good you are the next 4 games.
 

Van Everyman

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The Pats got beat last night and it wasn't particularly close.

HOWEVER:

- False start on BAL center not called, leads to a TD.

- Intentional grounding called on Brady because his WR ran the wrong route.

- White crawls into end zone untouched. Called down.

- BAL picks up 4th down on obvious OPI pick play. Not called.

The officiating in this league remains a huge problem. They were BRUTAL last night.
You aren't allowed to talk about this because it ruins the narrative that all the problems with this team have been exposed and anyway we're just whiners for complaining about officiating.

This game was simultaneously not close and close -- the Patriots got rolled in the first and fourth quarters, but rolled the Ravens in the 2nd and (most of) the 3rd. I do think if the plays you cite are split 50-50 instead of 0-100, it's a much closer game. But that's why some of the self-inflicted wounds--Calhoun jumping, Hightower jumping--were so painful.

As has been noted, Jackson tested them in ways they haven't been tested and couldn't really gameplan for. I thought his throwing mechanics sucked for most of the game -- and that his throws were generally not great. But he made a few really nice ones and got lucky on a few others. That big conversion on the far side to Marc Andrews (being covered by JC Jackson IIRC but maybe Brooks) was actually thrown too high but just a great catch. But this isn't a great matchup for the Pats for a lot of reasons so I'd guess any game against them in the playoffs would be tricky as well.

The thing that people aren't paying much attention to (tho I think Volin did note) is that the offense looked a fuckton better last night. Sanu looks like a great fit. White ran great. Michel ran pretty well too. I also think, his drop on the seam route notwithstanding (which I never saw a good replay of -- it looked like a tough catch on the inside), Watson is a decent option.

I hate sky is falling crap but I suspect this is what happens when expectations are so high and you lose your first game pretty convincingly going into a bye.
 

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The jump on the FG was a false start. That's a 4 point swing. No excuse for the officials to miss that.

The obvious OPI that wasn't called (and I mean fucking BLATANT) was 7 points on the drive. Again, if the officials call that it's Pats ball.

This doesn't excuse the early struggles defensively, but these calls made a huge difference in the final score and there's no reason to blame the Pats for those points given the officials fucked up terribly. They got outplayed, but not 17 points outplayed.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Watson's drop on the pass down the seam was just awful and if he cannot make that catch I'm not sure why his snaps cannot go to Izzo. Watson seemed to be helping Newhouse a bit by chipping the end therefore the gameplan may have limited his production but he has shown close to nothing so far.

The no huddle looked very good.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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White crawls into end zone untouched. Called down.
I thought he was clearly touched down.

Looked more like Brady/Jules audible when they realized a DL was on Jules not Humphrey for once. Of course Humphrey was playing just off. I thought the play looked terrible at first but you can reasonably expect Jules to beat a DL. Still didn't seem like a good decision from Brady at the time given the chunk plays the offense was picking up.
Tom has been pretty bad accuracy-wise on these little dump offs all season. First play he misses White badly, in the Red Zone he was way off on a pass to Dorsett and the play ended up having no chance. With the general lack of a running game he has to be better on these plays.
 

joe dokes

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You aren't allowed to talk about this because it ruins the narrative that all the problems with this team have been exposed and anyway we're just whiners for complaining about officiating.

[snip]

I hate sky is falling crap but I suspect this is what happens when expectations are so high and you lose your first game pretty convincingly going into a bye.
I'm also not a fan of "if not for those BAL fumbles, it would have been a blowout." Last I checked, the defense is part of the team.


That was the correct call. In one of the replays you could clearly see a foot touching him when he was still at least a yard away from the end zone.
Yeah. I'm not even sure what the dispute is here. And even without the foot touch, I couldn't tell whether his knee hit the ground before the ball hit the goal line. If the ball it first, it was by millimters. Certainly wasn't a blatant miss live (if it was a missed call at all).
 

DJnVa

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Yeah. I'm not even sure what the dispute is here. And even without the foot touch, I couldn't tell whether his knee hit the ground before the ball hit the goal line. If the ball it first, it was by millimters. Certainly wasn't a blatant miss live (if it was a missed call at all).
The fact that it was a correct call aside, I think that "random body part touching player makes him down" is a dumb ass rule.
 

kenneycb

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I'm super annoyed Hollister scored the GW OT TD for Seattle yesterday. He did nothing here, when we could use a young TE worth a crap.
He's got 9 catches for 75 yards and 2 TDs in 3 games after spending most of the year on the PS. Most of his production has come against TB and Atlanta, who are both bad. Let's not crown his ass just yet.
 

BigSoxFan

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Watson's drop on the pass down the seam was just awful and if he cannot make that catch I'm not sure why his snaps cannot go to Izzo. Watson seemed to be helping Newhouse a bit by chipping the end therefore the gameplan may have limited his production but he has shown close to nothing so far.

The no huddle looked very good.
Did they show a replay of that drop? I remember it being a catchable ball but couldn't recall seeing a better angle on just how bad the drop was. Really tough going from a decade of Gronk to a bunch of guys who can't make these kinds of catches. Really wanted Howard for this reason but he appears to be hurt anyways.
 

kenneycb

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The fact that it was a correct call aside, I think that "random body part touching player makes him down" is a dumb ass rule.
The other option is to bring more subjectivity into play. Given the state of officiating, I'm fine with a black and white rule.
 

Harry Hooper

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I'm also not a fan of "if not for those BAL fumbles, it would have been a blowout." Last I checked, the defense is part of the team.



Yeah. I'm not even sure what the dispute is here. And even without the foot touch, I couldn't tell whether his knee hit the ground before the ball hit the goal line. If the ball it first, it was by millimters. Certainly wasn't a blatant miss live (if it was a missed call at all).
Knee possibly being down was not relevant as White fell on his own (no defender involved), but that replay of the defender's toe denting White's shoulder seemed pretty definitive that he was stopped short of a TD.
 

Super Nomario

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I'm also not a fan of "if not for those BAL fumbles, it would have been a blowout." Last I checked, the defense is part of the team.
The defense forced one fumble but one was an unforced error by Cyrus Jones.

As has been noted, Jackson tested them in ways they haven't been tested and couldn't really gameplan for. I thought his throwing mechanics sucked for most of the game -- and that his throws were generally not great. But he made a few really nice ones and got lucky on a few others. That big conversion on the far side to Marc Andrews (being covered by JC Jackson IIRC but maybe Brooks) was actually thrown too high but just a great catch. But this isn't a great matchup for the Pats for a lot of reasons so I'd guess any game against them in the playoffs would be tricky as well.
It was Brooks and I totally disagree - that was a perfect pass, with pressure in Jackson's face.

The thing that people aren't paying much attention to (tho I think Volin did note) is that the offense looked a fuckton better last night. Sanu looks like a great fit. White ran great. Michel ran pretty well too. I also think, his drop on the seam route notwithstanding (which I never saw a good replay of -- it looked like a tough catch on the inside), Watson is a decent option.
The offense *looked* better ... but objectively speaking, it was pretty bad. 10 of their points were set up by fumbles, so they only really had two scoring drives of any length, plus the two turnovers. They moved the ball, but the problem is that they don't make explosive plays, so scoring involves converting a whole bunch of first downs without making mistakes and then converting in the red zone. But they committed too many penalties, gave up too many sacks, and the red zone O has been a problem dating back to last year. They need to find a way to get more big plays. It's kind of crazy to me that they can't find a way to get Dorsett open deep given his speed.
 

DJnVa

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The other option is to bring more subjectivity into play. Given the state of officiating, I'm fine with a black and white rule.
It's not subjective to say that a player that goes to the ground without being touched must be touched with a hand.

Your point on officiating stands unopposed though.
 

kenneycb

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It's not subjective to say that a player that goes to the ground without being touched must be touched with a hand.

Your point on officiating stands unopposed though.
A lot of tackles are made with shoulders. This would be a great way of teaching people how to tackle though and reduce contact to defenseless receiver penalties. I would just be worried with what constitutes a "hand". Those would be fun debates.
 

cgrove13

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Feb 2, 2010
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Thanks! Informative and insightful answers.

Looked more like Brady/Jules audible when they realized a DL was on Jules not Humphrey for once. Of course Humphrey was playing just off. I thought the play looked terrible at first but you can reasonably expect Jules to beat a DL. Still didn't seem like a good decision from Brady at the time given the chunk plays the offense was picking up.
It wasn't a screen, Edelman was an outlet receiver. Brady's 1st and maybe 2nd reads weren't available so he decided to go for a checkdown and see if Edleman could make the first guy miss and pick up a few yards. That happened but obviously then the fumble happened.

It wasn't a great play but it also wasn't Brady's fault.

The Goat was the defense and mainly the LBs it seemed to me.
In addition to not being able to stop the run game they also couldn't cover the Ravens 2nd and 3rd TEs who killed the Pats on multiple plays.
I don't think many teams will be able to do what the Ravens did on the ground but they can all trot out a few TEs and attempt to get them isolated on Hightower.

Edit: I didn't notice the guy on Jules was a DL, assuming that is true then j44thor is likely correct that it was just an adjustment on the fly between the two of them.
 

Van Everyman

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It was Brooks and I totally disagree - that was a perfect pass, with pressure in Jackson's face.
Jackson's passing mechanics are awful. He was running backwards and chucked it up sidearm high, all arm. Yes, Andrews had a height advantage and that was the best place to put it, but given how few of Jackson's other passes were on the mark, I think it's fair to suggest it may have been a lucky throw.

As for the offense, you're right that they lack big play explosiveness but that hasn't really been a hallmark of this team at any point other than the Moss/Stallworth year in 2007. They've always had a somewhat horizontal passing game. What's missing is the ability to jam it in in the red zone. That is an area where they need help because right now guys key on Edelman and Sanu and White is needed for blocking given the problems with the OL. That (and Edelman's fumble) is a much better reason for them only putting up 20 points than the idea that they couldn't move the ball or were somehow gifted their points.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Did they show a replay of that drop? I remember it being a catchable ball but couldn't recall seeing a better angle on just how bad the drop was. Really tough going from a decade of Gronk to a bunch of guys who can't make these kinds of catches. Really wanted Howard for this reason but he appears to be hurt anyways.
They didn't show a replay for some reason. Collinsworth made the drop seem pretty egregious when he was describing it but it could have been a tougher catch than it looked like in real time. I thought Izzo has flashed a couple of times catching the ball this year but the sample size is obviously extremely small. He has made a catch or two away from his body that were impressive.
 

Super Nomario

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Jackson's passing mechanics are awful. He was running backwards and chucked it up sidearm high, all arm. Yes, Andrews had a height advantage and that was the best place to put it, but given how few of Jackson's other passes were on the mark, I think it's fair to suggest it may have been a lucky throw.
Jackson dominated the Patriots last night. I find this line of argument super-weird. It's like the kind of sour grapes non-Pats fans have when the Patriots beat them and they say Brady just checked it down all night.

As for the offense, you're right that they lack big play explosiveness but that hasn't really been a hallmark of this team at any point other than the Moss/Stallworth year in 2007. They've always had a somewhat horizontal passing game. What's missing is the ability to jam it in in the red zone. That is an area where they need help because right now guys key on Edelman and Sanu and White is needed for blocking given the problems with the OL. That (and Edelman's fumble) is a much better reason for them only putting up 20 points than the idea that they couldn't move the ball or were somehow gifted their points.
They're not going to be the 2007 team, but you need some degree of big-play explosiveness or the execution has to be near-perfect. They're not going to throw 60-yard bombs, but those 20+ seam balls to Gronk are missing this year and it really hurts. To me, coaxing a couple 30-yard plays out of the O seems an easier path to success than expecting this offensive group to play mistake-free. As one example, Dorsett is the fastest receiver they have but they don't seem to run him deep, or don't throw to him when they do. They had a couple long TDs running him out of the slot Week 1 and that would be a good wrinkle to get back.
 

DJnVa

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A lot of tackles are made with shoulders. This would be a great way of teaching people how to tackle though and reduce contact to defenseless receiver penalties. I would just be worried with what constitutes a "hand". Those would be fun debates.
Well, a tackle made with the shoulder is different from what I am talking about. Hell, getting "tripped" would still be a tackle. I just mean a dude tripping on his teammate and a defender brushing him with a foot.

But it's just a pet peeve and as was said, officiating generally sucks. I don't want more subjective things. Because the NFL can make anything subjective.
 

Super Nomario

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Well, a tackle made with the shoulder is different from what I am talking about. Hell, getting "tripped" would still be a tackle. I just mean a dude tripping on his teammate and a defender brushing him with a foot.

But it's just a pet peeve and as was said, officiating generally sucks. I don't want more subjective things. Because the NFL can make anything subjective.
Honestly I like the college rule that if you go down you're down whether you're touched or not. But I'm still mad about that long Maurice-Jones Drew TD run a decade back.