2019 Game Goat Thread: Wk. 14 vs Chiefs

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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No, he's being reviewed for the entire 2019 season, which has been a pretty bad disaster.

Michel YTD. 189 carries, 653 yards, and EXTREMELY impressive 3.5 yards per carry. But hey, he's got 10 receptions, which is 3 more than last year. So he's a dual threat.
You can't bitch that they get nothing from their 1st round picks and then ignore the solid year of production they got from their 1st round pick that led to a SB win.

Watching the games it's pretty obvious that the issue has been the OL; losing Andrews for the year has been a big factor. Newhouse was terrible and Wynn's just back now. Mason is having a down year. They're on their 3rd string center. But OK, it's all on Sony.
 

BigJimEd

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If you want the fairest solution, just use what they do in college football - any play with any hint of controversy goes straight to the booth for review, period. Of course, the games would probably last for three-and-a-half hours on average, so that won't happen until someone can convince the NFL that this is an opportunity to generate additional revenue. (Which it would be, but perhaps at the cost of making the product slightly less attractive to the average viewer.)
I don't think it would really add on much time. Review everything and call down when you see something. You have an extra ref upstairs watching in real time and quick replays. But that would cost money because you need someone watching every game.

You can save the challenges to when teams are trying to hurry and not let them get a good look or for PI and other penalties.
 

Harry Hooper

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Reminds me of the TD he had in AFCCG where the refs once again let KC DBs drape all over him.
This play was not called pass interferenceView attachment 27378
Just an amazing non-call. The beaten DB was just trying to prevent a TD there, there was no subtlety or guile involved in wrapping up the receiver.

Presumably a couple of officials have main responsibility in making this category of call in that portion of the field, but it was easily visible to a handful of them.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I said in the game thread that non-PI was every bit as bad substantively as the non-call in the NFC championship game. Now, the camera angles aren't as obvious and the game situation isn't quite as impactful but in terms of clarity of pass interference it doesn't get any worse than that one.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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This play was not called pass interferenceView attachment 27378
I think if he fights back toward the ball more he gets the call. It looked like he thought it was going to hit him in the chest but the ball actually landed behind him. There's mounting evidence that Dorsett has the proverbial ten cent head.

Sucks that Wynn may merely be league average if that.
Really? Yikes that seems a bit premature.
 

johnmd20

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You can't bitch that they get nothing from their 1st round picks and then ignore the solid year of production they got from their 1st round pick that led to a SB win.

Watching the games it's pretty obvious that the issue has been the OL; losing Andrews for the year has been a big factor. Newhouse was terrible and Wynn's just back now. Mason is having a down year. They're on their 3rd string center. But OK, it's all on Sony.
Your sarcasm is not needed. It is so unseemly.

James White has 4.1 yards per carry, behind that same terrible line. How is he doing that? And White isn't even the prime back, he's the pass catching guy, with SIXTY TWO receptions this year. Who has been more helpful to the Pats this year, the first round pick or Mr. White, the stud?

Sony has had a terrible year. It is ok to say that. And last year he was only Ok during the regular season (900 yards and change and an embarrassing 7 receptions) and it is worth nothing that when the Pats needed a humongous performance against the Chiefs in the 2nd half of the AFC Championship, it was Burkhead who was getting the work and absolutely crushing it. Meanwhile, Sony didn't see the field in the 2nd half.

Sony was fine, at best, last year and you're acting like he was Terrell Davis. And this year, he's been a net negative because he's one dimensional and in that dimension, he's been one of the worst RBs in the league.
 

RedOctober3829

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I think if he fights back toward the ball more he gets the call. It looked like he thought it was going to hit him in the chest but the ball actually landed behind him. There's mounting evidence that Dorsett has the proverbial ten cent head.



Really? Yikes that seems a bit premature.
Seriously? The CB was bear hugging him. He did fight back for the ball as much as he could.
 

BaseballJones

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The Pats' D, FWIW, allowed the Chiefs to score their second-fewest points of the year. They were solid.

The goats were:

1. The offensive line. Just ineffective whether we're talking about run blocking or pass protection.
2. Meyers. Two HUGE drops. One that would have converted a huge third down, and then a dropped TD in the end zone. I like the kid and want him to succeed, but man oh man.
3. Jones. The ball that he gave up for a TD felt like Eli's Tyree throw - a total just chuck it up there and hope for the best, and because Jones totally screwed up on the play, well, it was a killer for the Pats. He played much better in the second half, but, well, the first half happened too.
 

Byrdbrain

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Your sarcasm is not needed. It is so unseemly.

James White has 4.1 yards per carry, behind that same terrible line. How is he doing that? And White isn't even the prime back, he's the pass catching guy, with SIXTY TWO receptions this year. Who has been more helpful to the Pats this year, the first round pick or Mr. White, the stud?

Sony has had a terrible year. It is ok to say that. And last year he was only Ok during the regular season (900 yards and change and an embarrassing 7 receptions) and it is worth nothing that when the Pats needed a humongous performance against the Chiefs in the 2nd half of the AFC Championship, it was Burkhead who was getting the work and absolutely crushing it. Meanwhile, Sony didn't see the field in the 2nd half.

Sony was fine, at best, last year and you're acting like he was Terrell Davis. And this year, he's been a net negative because he's one dimensional and in that dimension, he's been one of the worst RBs in the league.
It's clear Sony isn't a great back and it does appear they picked the wrong guy from GA.
Most of the issue this year is on the OL but Sony just isn't a guy that can get yards on his own.

Comparing his stats to White is a bit unfair though. White plays mostly in passing downs and the D typically counters with lighter fronts.
When White runs it is a surprise, when Sony is in there it is expected he'll run. And yes part of that is because Sony is limited in the passing game even though he was touted as an all around back.
 

j44thor

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Your sarcasm is not needed. It is so unseemly.

James White has 4.1 yards per carry, behind that same terrible line. How is he doing that? And White isn't even the prime back, he's the pass catching guy, with SIXTY TWO receptions this year. Who has been more helpful to the Pats this year, the first round pick or Mr. White, the stud?

Sony has had a terrible year. It is ok to say that. And last year he was only Ok during the regular season (900 yards and change and an embarrassing 7 receptions) and it is worth nothing that when the Pats needed a humongous performance against the Chiefs in the 2nd half of the AFC Championship, it was Burkhead who was getting the work and absolutely crushing it. Meanwhile, Sony didn't see the field in the 2nd half.

Sony was fine, at best, last year and you're acting like he was Terrell Davis. And this year, he's been a net negative because he's one dimensional and in that dimension, he's been one of the worst RBs in the league.
White runs against much lighter boxes which is why he has better rushing stats. The irony in all of this is that Michel was primarily the passing down back at Georgia, he only faced an 8 man box 11% of the time. Chubb was the bellcow on 1/2 down consistently running against 8 man boxes. So NE had a great passing down back and desperately needed to draft a 1/2 down back and opted instead to draft a passing down back and convert him into a 1/2 down back.

This pre-draft write up comparing the two is really eye-opening.
https://www.catscratchreader.com/2018/3/28/17167756/nick-chubb-sony-michel-georgia-bulldogs-2018-nfl-draft-prospects
 

8slim

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I don't dislike Sony the way some do, but I think he's probably the wrong back for this offense, given the state of the OL and the inconsistency of the WRs. If you want to see a jarring difference in styles, flip back and forth between a Pats game and a Vikings game. Dalvin Cook (2nd round pick, 41st overall) looks like he is shot out of a cannon every time he's handed the ball. Compare that to Sony's persistent soft first steps. Totally fair to acknowledge our craptastic OL doesn't give Sony much to work with, but that is amplified by the fact that he seems tentative to the small holes that do open up, at times.
 

RedOctober3829

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Is it fair to question how the training staff treated ankle injuries this year? Harry and LaCosse both suffered injuries and played through them in the preseason instead of shutting them down. To me, it's fair because Harry hurt it and then went in and played on it further in the preseason. Same with LaCosse.
 

JVglove2face

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I hate to quote myself, but the worst part of this is the line judge coming in from the 10 is the one to say Harry stepped out of bounds, and then waves his arms to rule him down on the field, but is absolutely not marking the spot where Harry potentially stepped out of bounds. He's just backpedaling away and marking him down. Fucking ridiculous.
The line judge has sideline responsibility and the field judge covers goal line. The field judge should always be looking to the line judge before indicating a score to make sure the play is inbounds. Looks to me like the line judge didn't keep the sideline (for whatever reason) and was asking for help, and maybe didn't get any. Nobody else has a view to rule so they made a call and it was the wrong one. They can't just not have a ruling, and they have to rely on replay if its ruled incorrectly. It would be the line judges ruling on the forward spot as well.
 

Super Nomario

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You can't bitch that they get nothing from their 1st round picks and then ignore the solid year of production they got from their 1st round pick that led to a SB win.

Watching the games it's pretty obvious that the issue has been the OL; losing Andrews for the year has been a big factor. Newhouse was terrible and Wynn's just back now. Mason is having a down year. They're on their 3rd string center. But OK, it's all on Sony.
I think it's fair to say:
1) Michel was a valuable member of the championship team last year
2) What is going on this year is not entirely and maybe/probably not even mostly Sony's fault, but
3) It is killing the team when he is on the field. The Chiefs have one of the worst run defenses in football and Michel had 8 yards on 5 carries. The Patriots have two good skill players, Edelman and White, so every time they take out White and put in Michel, the offense is playing with one hand tied behind its back. The power run game from last year is not happening (and Burkhead was nearly as ineffective as Michel last night) and they need to give it up and play White as much as he can stand against good teams.
 

loshjott

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Probably true, I suppose, but he the way he leaps forward on a ball that's clearly behind him looks off to me. Looks like if he puts on the brakes he gets the call easily. (100% agree on it being a brutal no call either way)

View: https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1203835264126390272
This is absolutely true. Yes, it's clearly PI but he had overrun the ball before contact was even made. He needed to put on the brakes not just to get the call but to make the catch in the first place.
 

DJnVa

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The missed pass interference sucked but Brady ran for 20 yards on the next play, so I'm not too worked up about it as a play that cost us like those other ones did.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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The missed pass interference sucked but Brady ran for 20 yards on the next play, so I'm not too worked up about it as a play that cost us like those other ones did.
Agreed, I still think Boger missed the spot on the first challenge though, and the Harry call was simply forgivable. However, Boger easily could have called forward progress on Kelce (wrongly, but could have called it) which would have justified the whistle.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I think it's fair to say:
1) Michel was a valuable member of the championship team last year
2) What is going on this year is not entirely and maybe/probably not even mostly Sony's fault, but
3) It is killing the team when he is on the field. The Chiefs have one of the worst run defenses in football and Michel had 8 yards on 5 carries. The Patriots have two good skill players, Edelman and White, so every time they take out White and put in Michel, the offense is playing with one hand tied behind its back. The power run game from last year is not happening (and Burkhead was nearly as ineffective as Michel last night) and they need to give it up and play White as much as he can stand against good teams.
No fullback isn't helping either.
 

CFB_Rules

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Agreed, I still think Boger missed the spot on the first challenge though, and the Harry call was simply forgivable. However, Boger easily could have called forward progress on Kelce (wrongly, but could have called it) which would have justified the whistle.
Boger wasn't involved in either play. Replay rulings come directly from New York. Forward progress is the responsibility from the DJ or LJ.
 

DJnVa

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The missed PI was huge though from a time perspective. It occurred at like 3:30 left.
Sure, but, to my mind, I don't know if us potentially going ahead with 3 minutes left would have been a good thing...
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I missed this one: at one point the refs called a penalty on KC that should have been 10 yards but only penalized them five.

Incorrect penalty enforcements fall on the entire crew. No one may be talking about this play from midway through the third quarter, but it may be one of the biggest errors of the game. Chiefs offensive guard Laurent Duvernay-Tardif was correctly penalized for an illegal use of hands foul, but instead of marking off a 10 yard penalty, the crew only penalized Kansas City five yards. Often, referees will misspeak over the microphone and give the wrong penalty yardage, but here, the 2nd and 10 turned into a 2nd and 15, when it should have been 2nd and 20.
 

lexrageorge

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I missed this one: at one point the refs called a penalty on KC that should have been 10 yards but only penalized them five.
One can argue about missed calls forever. We've been doing it since professional sports was invented, and we'll be doing it for decades hence if not longer.

But not following the rulebook is truly an egregious error that really should result in the officials being sanctioned. At the very least, none of the officials on the field yesterday should see any action in the playoffs this season.
 

BigSoxFan

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One can argue about missed calls forever. We've been doing it since professional sports was invented, and we'll be doing it for decades hence if not longer.

But not following the rulebook is truly an egregious error that really should result in the officials being sanctioned. At the very least, none of the officials on the field yesterday should see any action in the playoffs this season.
How did anyone on Pats not notice?
 

cshea

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Not that it makes a difference because he’s the biggest idiot of them, but I though Riveron or someone from New York was supposed to be in their ear to correct procedural mistakes such as marking off the wrong yardage on a penalty.

I also kinda thought that was happening when Boger was picked up then RTP flag on Winovich in the first half. Looked like they were standing around but not really conversing.
 

Kliq

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On a positive note; in college Harry was a YAC monster and so far we hadn't seen him do any of that. His should-have-been-TD was a really impressive play as he broke multiple tackles and turned a short dump off into a 20 yard TD. I think he can be a bit of a playmaker but that was the first play we have seen them really just try to give him the ball and let him run with it.
 

BigSoxFan

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On a positive note; in college Harry was a YAC monster and so far we hadn't seen him do any of that. His should-have-been-TD was a really impressive play as he broke multiple tackles and turned a short dump off into a 20 yard TD. I think he can be a bit of a playmaker but that was the first play we have seen them really just try to give him the ball and let him run with it.
Agreed. They need to find a way to get him the ball. I was hoping for later career Dez Bryant out of Harry as a ceiling. Obviously hasn’t happened yet but his YAC skills really are special in that same vain. Really need to find ways to get him the ball.
 

Oppo

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Just make everything reviewed by an independent, experienced, highly graded ref in a booth
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Interesting that they ran that specifically play for Harry but otherwise he barely sees the field. Also, if you watch the whole play, IIRC, he looked lost going in motion. Lucky he didn't false start or get a moving at the snap penalty. Loved the effort after the catch though. Any word on his injury status today?

He needs to usurp Jabutterfingers Meyers asap. That it hasn't happened by now is concerning. With all his fuck ups Meyers still got 57% of the snaps yesterday, but Harry gets shown the bench for the greater parts of two games after going soft on a slant pattern? Something must no be clicking behind the scenes.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think it's fair to say:
1) Michel was a valuable member of the championship team last year
2) What is going on this year is not entirely and maybe/probably not even mostly Sony's fault, but
3) It is killing the team when he is on the field. The Chiefs have one of the worst run defenses in football and Michel had 8 yards on 5 carries. The Patriots have two good skill players, Edelman and White, so every time they take out White and put in Michel, the offense is playing with one hand tied behind its back. The power run game from last year is not happening (and Burkhead was nearly as ineffective as Michel last night) and they need to give it up and play White as much as he can stand against good teams.
I really don't know what folks expect of Sony in the running game. This is a Josh issue more than anything. Sony played 9 snaps yesterday. 9. He got 6 touches on those 9 snaps. Basically, whenever he is on the field, the defense knows he's getting the ball. He was taking handoffs yesterday and looking at a wall of defenders in front of him because they know he's getting the ball, and the offensive line sucks balls. On one of the snaps where he didn't get a touch, he whiffed on a pass rusher, and Brady either got sacked or had to throw it away, and I'm pretty sure we never saw him again.

Someone mentioned Dalvin Cook upthread. Dalvin Cook is running behind a very good offensive line, an all world fullback in CJ Ham, he's a pass catching threat and the Vikes have receivers all over the field that can make plays. The loss of Develin killed this team's running game. I said it when it happened. Develin could have made up for some of the losses of Gronk and Andrews, but losing all 3 of them is just not something that a back like Sony can overcome (and I doubt most anyone else would be having success running on this team right now).

Besides the refs, the Goats yesterday were the offensive line, in every phase. Then the receivers, in every phase. Both units were an abomination. I was there, and I watched Brady have guys in his face on almost every play, but he can't get it out quick because nobody can get open off the LOS and when he does fit it in somewhere, they fucking drop it anyway.

Just brutal. The fact they still had a chance to win, despite the refs robbing them at every opportunity, was a testament to the team and will be well served come January. They don't quit. Forget the calls and the points that came off the board, the blown calls on the Kelce fumble and the non-DPI on Dorsett probably took 5-6 minutes off the clock, which was a lot of time the Pats could have used at the end of the game with all of the momentum in their favor. It was a disgrace.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I really don't know what folks expect of Sony in the running game. This is a Josh issue more than anything. Sony played 9 snaps yesterday. 9. He got 6 touches on those 9 snaps. Basically, whenever he is on the field, the defense knows he's getting the ball. He was taking handoffs yesterday and looking at a wall of defenders in front of him because they know he's getting the ball, and the offensive line sucks balls. On one of the snaps where he didn't get a touch, he whiffed on a pass rusher, and Brady either got sacked or had to throw it away, and I'm pretty sure we never saw him again.
If I'm remembering the same play, I believe it was a PA pass and there was basically a free rusher up the gut right on top of Sony at the moment of the fake, and I think a second rusher coming off one of the edges. I remember thinking there was just no time for the play to develop rather than being his fault.

Definitely a larger issue that his presence on the field is still a strong signal to the defense. About as bad as when Stork was tipping the plays a few years back.
 

Shelterdog

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Your sarcasm is not needed. It is so unseemly.

James White has 4.1 yards per carry, behind that same terrible line. How is he doing that? And White isn't even the prime back, he's the pass catching guy, with SIXTY TWO receptions this year. Who has been more helpful to the Pats this year, the first round pick or Mr. White, the stud?

Sony has had a terrible year. It is ok to say that. And last year he was only Ok during the regular season (900 yards and change and an embarrassing 7 receptions) and it is worth nothing that when the Pats needed a humongous performance against the Chiefs in the 2nd half of the AFC Championship, it was Burkhead who was getting the work and absolutely crushing it. Meanwhile, Sony didn't see the field in the 2nd half.

Sony was fine, at best, last year and you're acting like he was Terrell Davis. And this year, he's been a net negative because he's one dimensional and in that dimension, he's been one of the worst RBs in the league.
Because they basically only run James White against super light defensive fronts.
 

johnmd20

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Because they basically only run James White against super light defensive fronts.
Ok to all of this. But this is so weird. Are people defending Michel this year? He's low ranked in yards after contact and Sony Michel's yards per carry puts him 95th in the league for RBs with at least 5 attempts per game this year.

Ninety. Fifth. You can't chalk all of that up to the line. He's a bottom ranked RB in 2019. And it's incredibly disappointing.
 

Shelterdog

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Ok to all of this. But this is so weird. Are people defending Michel this year? He's low ranked in yards after contact and Sony Michel's yards per carry puts him 95th in the league for RBs with at least 5 attempts per game this year.

Ninety. Fifth. You can't chalk all of that up to the line. He's a bottom ranked RB in 2019. And it's incredibly disappointing.
Michel's performance sucks this year and that's indisputable. I'm not sure how to break up the responsibility between Michel, the guys blocking for him, and the play calling; all three seem bad but the numebr of times he's just running into a wall is unbelievable.
 

johnmd20

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Michel's performance sucks this year and that's indisputable. I'm not sure how to break up the responsibility between Michel, the guys blocking for him, and the play calling; all three seem bad but the numebr of times he's just running into a wall is unbelievable.
I'll say this, the one dimensional aspect of Michel's game is back breaking. One of the reason's why the Ravens are crushing it is because you just don't know what they are going to do. When Michel is in, everyone knows what is going to happen.

You can't play a back in the NFL in 2019 if he can't catch passes. Contrast how Michel looks versus how someone like Miles Sanders or Devin Singletary look. It's an entirely different weapon altogether. And Sanders was taken 53rd in this year's draft. And Singletary was taken, gasp, 74th.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'll say this, the one dimensional aspect of Michel's game is back breaking. One of the reason's why the Ravens are crushing it is because you just don't know what they are going to do. When Michel is in, everyone knows what is going to happen.

You can't play a back in the NFL in 2019 if he can't catch passes. Contrast how Michel looks versus how someone like Miles Sanders or Devin Singletary look. It's an entirely different weapon altogether. And Sanders was taken 53rd in this year's draft. And Singletary was taken, gasp, 74th.
On a team without Andrews, Gronk, and Develin it really is. Last year we could telegraph our plays without much issue because the blocking was so good. This year, it sucks so we need a more dynamic RB and not a BJGE clone.

I’m sure BB likes his ball security, which has been quite good (2 FL in career...one of which came when his knee was getting twisted like a pretzel), but I would trade the occasional fumble for a more dynamic RB.
 

Shelterdog

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I'll say this, the one dimensional aspect of Michel's game is back breaking. One of the reason's why the Ravens are crushing it is because you just don't know what they are going to do. When Michel is in, everyone knows what is going to happen.

You can't play a back in the NFL in 2019 if he can't catch passes. Contrast how Michel looks versus how someone like Miles Sanders or Devin Singletary look. It's an entirely different weapon altogether. And Sanders was taken 53rd in this year's draft. And Singletary was taken, gasp, 74th.
For sure. The weird thing is he caught the ball ok at Georgia and he's a pretty athletic dude overall; he's had so few chances with the pats that I don't know if it's that he can't catch at this level or that they just don't want to bother for whatever the reason.
 

8slim

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I'll say this, the one dimensional aspect of Michel's game is back breaking. One of the reason's why the Ravens are crushing it is because you just don't know what they are going to do. When Michel is in, everyone knows what is going to happen.

You can't play a back in the NFL in 2019 if he can't catch passes. Contrast how Michel looks versus how someone like Miles Sanders or Devin Singletary look. It's an entirely different weapon altogether. And Sanders was taken 53rd in this year's draft. And Singletary was taken, gasp, 74th.
It's back breaking for this team, perhaps, although he's far from the first Pats halfback to be essentially run-only. LeGarette Blount caught 7 passes in 2016, while carrying the ball 299 times. Guys like Stevan Ridley and BenJarvus Green-Ellis rarely were used in the passing game.

Even in "2019", Derek Henry, second leading rusher in the league at the moment, has all of 18 catches this year. Granted, most of the top 10 rushers also have a considerable number of receptions.

Leads me back to my point that Michel is a particularly bad fit for this Pats edition. But I'm not ready to call him a bust or write off his career, until he gets a reasonably competent OL to run behind again.
 

BigSoxFan

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Is anyone familiar with Damien Harris’ game enough to know if it’s worth giving him a look? Clearly, the guys who know him aren’t ready to give him real reps but curious to know what he might be able to do differently. Based on college stats, seems similar to Sony.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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New Spygate allegation in...at press conference in Cincy, Zac Taylor inferring the Pats were taping the Bengals play calls at their last game.