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EvilEmpire

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I am still fine with Bowles. I always said good luck winning with Fitz and Uncle Josh.
I think this is exactly right. Hopefully Darnold can reach his potential.

With regard to Gase, he may not be an exciting hire, but I think he's solid. I like him better than a college coach or NFL assistant with no HC experience. I like him better than McCarthy.
 

Doug Beerabelli

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I saw some scuttlebutt on TV (ESPN) about the fact 5 minority head coaches fired, and none hired to replace these openings. Two openings left. Many of these former minority HCs have been hired to coordinator positions, or are under consideration for the same.

Anyone think there's legit racial bias here? I agree the teams kind of make a mockery of the Rooney Rule when they have their chosen guy, but then go through the motions of interviewing minority candidates to comply. I'd be inclined not give NFL owners the benefit of any doubt, but there are only 32 of these jobs out there. And this certainly is an easy and obvious clickbait topic for the media to choose to cover.
 

Super Nomario

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I saw some scuttlebutt on TV (ESPN) about the fact 5 minority head coaches fired, and none hired to replace these openings. Two openings left. Many of these former minority HCs have been hired to coordinator positions, or are under consideration for the same.

Anyone think there's legit racial bias here? I agree the teams kind of make a mockery of the Rooney Rule when they have their chosen guy, but then go through the motions of interviewing minority candidates to comply. I'd be inclined not give NFL owners the benefit of any doubt, but there are only 32 of these jobs out there. And this certainly is an easy and obvious clickbait topic for the media to choose to cover.
I don't think there's overt racial bias, but there are subtle things happening. The trend towards offensive hires favors white candidates; there are few black offensive coordinators and quarterbacks coaches (probably for the same reasons there have not historically been many black quarterbacks relative to other positions), but relatively more black defensive coordinators. Five of six hires so far are offensive guys. All 7 of the 2016 hires were offensive guys, 4 of 6 in 2017 (and 1 of the D guys got fired after just 2 seasons), 4 of 7 in 2018 (and the one fired after one year was a D guy).
 

cheech13

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I saw some scuttlebutt on TV (ESPN) about the fact 5 minority head coaches fired, and none hired to replace these openings. Two openings left. Many of these former minority HCs have been hired to coordinator positions, or are under consideration for the same.

Anyone think there's legit racial bias here? I agree the teams kind of make a mockery of the Rooney Rule when they have their chosen guy, but then go through the motions of interviewing minority candidates to comply. I'd be inclined not give NFL owners the benefit of any doubt, but there are only 32 of these jobs out there. And this certainly is an easy and obvious clickbait topic for the media to choose to cover.
It's a bias, but it's more systemic than overt. To fill head coaching positions with minorities you need a strong pool of candidates and there is a relative dearth of black and minority individuals filling top coordinator positions. That's because top offensive positions such as quarterback are still disproportionately held by white individuals at the pro, collegiate and high school level and those players more often than not end up as QB coaches and then Offensive Coordinators.

NFL owners are mostly white and they hire GMs from a pool that is mostly white. Those GMS give head coaching jobs to guys they know, again mostly white. They fill their staffs with other white guys and the cycle continues. I think the Rooney Rule is necessary and helps with illuminating potential hires, but it's not going to overturn decades worth of bias toward a certain "type" of candidate. There are a lot of teams looking for the next Sean McVay, but not any looking for the next Anthony Lynn, so...
 
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Cellar-Door

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I saw some scuttlebutt on TV (ESPN) about the fact 5 minority head coaches fired, and none hired to replace these openings. Two openings left. Many of these former minority HCs have been hired to coordinator positions, or are under consideration for the same.

Anyone think there's legit racial bias here? I agree the teams kind of make a mockery of the Rooney Rule when they have their chosen guy, but then go through the motions of interviewing minority candidates to comply. I'd be inclined not give NFL owners the benefit of any doubt, but there are only 32 of these jobs out there. And this certainly is an easy and obvious clickbait topic for the media to choose to cover.
Mina Kimes had a story a while ago that I can't find now, but basically the problem goes all the way down, the coach and coordinator positions that most often become head coaches are overwhelmingly white, and the positions that feed into those are mostly white, all the way down
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think the one stat that I keep hearing from the talking heads that makes me crazy is the one about 70% of the players in the league are African-American, and (now), only 2 head coaches are African-American. Thus, racism. I want to climb through my computer/radio and strangle someone every time I hear it. It's as if there is no difference between the qualifications of a player and a head coach. The real statistic, if there even should be one, would be "How many NFL head coaches are former players and what percentage of them are white vs. black?" I haven't gone and counted them all, but from what I can tell, there are very, very few head coaches in the NFL that are former NFL players. Kliff Kingsbury is one of the actual exceptions to the rule (for those that forget, he was drafted by the Patriots in 2003, with the 201st pick in the draft, trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice, hmm?) and then roamed around and went to Canada before turning to coaching 2008. Anthony Lynn and Todd Bowles are also exceptions.

The reality is the guys that choose to become head coaches, for the most part, chose that path very early on in life. The one thing most of these guys have in common is that one of their first resume entries reads the words "graduate assistant." We all know Belichick's story, McCarthy basically started a path towards coaching when he was 25, Pete Carroll started as a collegiate assistant when he was 22, Gruden was 22, Dirk Koetter coached a high school team for 2 years after college, Adam Gase got a job as an undergraduate assistant while in college, Hue Jackson stayed at his alma mater and started coaching at 22, Marvin Lewis was a grad assistant at Idaho State at 23, Andy Reid was a grad assistant at 23, McVay became an Asst WR coach under Gruden when he graduated from Miami at age 22, and on and on and on it goes.

The media make it sound like any old NFL player can become a head coach, and they completely ignore the fact that if these guys were busy playing football, they were falling behind the curve of all of these guys who started coaching immediate after, or in some cases during, college. They can't necessarily compete with the experience the other coaching candidates have. When I hire someone to work for me, experience is always the #1 factor, and I feel it should be that way in most professions.

So while I don't doubt for a second that some of these owners are racist, I think every single one of them would hire a black coach tomorrow if they were guaranteed a couple more wins and a whole lot more money. They may be racist, but they ain't stupid, and they are certainly greedy. I think we need to look into what's happening to the black coaches that start right out of college, and try to move up the ranks. Where are they getting stopped in the process? What's holding them back? How many of them are there? By the time most of these guys get a shot at an NFL head coaching gig, they've been coaching in some capacity for 20+ years. Whereas guys who play NFL football aren't building that resume as a coach. If they have a successful NFL career, they can be starting their coaching career 10+ years behind these other guys who didn't/couldn't play at the NFL level.

Anyway, just something to throw out there because I keep hearing this stat about NFL players and I just don't think it actually proves what the speakers think it proves.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think the one stat that I keep hearing from the talking heads that makes me crazy is the one about 70% of the players in the league are African-American, and (now), only 2 head coaches are African-American. Thus, racism. I want to climb through my computer/radio and strangle someone every time I hear it. It's as if there is no difference between the qualifications of a player and a head coach. The real statistic, if there even should be one, would be "How many NFL head coaches are former players and what percentage of them are white vs. black?" I haven't gone and counted them all, but from what I can tell, there are very, very few head coaches in the NFL that are former NFL players. Kliff Kingsbury is one of the actual exceptions to the rule (for those that forget, he was drafted by the Patriots in 2003, with the 201st pick in the draft, trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice, hmm?) and then roamed around and went to Canada before turning to coaching 2008. Anthony Lynn and Todd Bowles are also exceptions.

The reality is the guys that choose to become head coaches, for the most part, chose that path very early on in life. The one thing most of these guys have in common is that one of their first resume entries reads the words "graduate assistant." We all know Belichick's story, McCarthy basically started a path towards coaching when he was 25, Pete Carroll started as a collegiate assistant when he was 22, Gruden was 22, Dirk Koetter coached a high school team for 2 years after college, Adam Gase got a job as an undergraduate assistant while in college, Hue Jackson stayed at his alma mater and started coaching at 22, Marvin Lewis was a grad assistant at Idaho State at 23, Andy Reid was a grad assistant at 23, McVay became an Asst WR coach under Gruden when he graduated from Miami at age 22, and on and on and on it goes.

The media make it sound like any old NFL player can become a head coach, and they completely ignore the fact that if these guys were busy playing football, they were falling behind the curve of all of these guys who started coaching immediate after, or in some cases during, college. They can't necessarily compete with the experience the other coaching candidates have. When I hire someone to work for me, experience is always the #1 factor, and I feel it should be that way in most professions.

So while I don't doubt for a second that some of these owners are racist, I think every single one of them would hire a black coach tomorrow if they were guaranteed a couple more wins and a whole lot more money. They may be racist, but they ain't stupid, and they are certainly greedy. I think we need to look into what's happening to the black coaches that start right out of college, and try to move up the ranks. Where are they getting stopped in the process? What's holding them back? How many of them are there? By the time most of these guys get a shot at an NFL head coaching gig, they've been coaching in some capacity for 20+ years. Whereas guys who play NFL football aren't building that resume as a coach. If they have a successful NFL career, they can be starting their coaching career 10+ years behind these other guys who didn't/couldn't play at the NFL level.

Anyway, just something to throw out there because I keep hearing this stat about NFL players and I just don't think it actually proves what the speakers think it proves.
Yeah as mentioned above the biggest problem is that the feeder system for coaches is overwhelmingly white. On the other hand, since 2014 there have been I think 17? Former NFL players who were a head coach in the NFL? Todd Bowles was the only one who was black, so it's not totally outrageous to wonder why 70% of NFL players are Black, but only 5% of NFL players turned coaches are Black.
 

Super Nomario

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I think the one stat that I keep hearing from the talking heads that makes me crazy is the one about 70% of the players in the league are African-American, and (now), only 2 head coaches are African-American. Thus, racism. I want to climb through my computer/radio and strangle someone every time I hear it. It's as if there is no difference between the qualifications of a player and a head coach. The real statistic, if there even should be one, would be "How many NFL head coaches are former players and what percentage of them are white vs. black?" I haven't gone and counted them all, but from what I can tell, there are very, very few head coaches in the NFL that are former NFL players. Kliff Kingsbury is one of the actual exceptions to the rule (for those that forget, he was drafted by the Patriots in 2003, with the 201st pick in the draft, trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice, hmm?) and then roamed around and went to Canada before turning to coaching 2008. Anthony Lynn and Todd Bowles are also exceptions.
Doug Pederson, Frank Reich, Jason Garrett, Mike Vrabel, Doug Marrone, and Ron Rivera were also former players. You are right to note the pool of potential coaches is different than the pool of players, but there are a lot of ex-player-turned-coaches, and they are still overwhelmingly white.

The reality is the guys that choose to become head coaches, for the most part, chose that path very early on in life. The one thing most of these guys have in common is that one of their first resume entries reads the words "graduate assistant." We all know Belichick's story, McCarthy basically started a path towards coaching when he was 25, Pete Carroll started as a collegiate assistant when he was 22, Gruden was 22, Dirk Koetter coached a high school team for 2 years after college, Adam Gase got a job as an undergraduate assistant while in college, Hue Jackson stayed at his alma mater and started coaching at 22, Marvin Lewis was a grad assistant at Idaho State at 23, Andy Reid was a grad assistant at 23, McVay became an Asst WR coach under Gruden when he graduated from Miami at age 22, and on and on and on it goes.

I think we need to look into what's happening to the black coaches that start right out of college, and try to move up the ranks. Where are they getting stopped in the process? What's holding them back? How many of them are there?
I think this is the right focus. I think it's harder for black coaches to get in the door because (like many professions) so much of getting your foot in the door is nepotism and references. The Patriots' hiring practice (as documented in the Michael Holley books) is to get a young guy out of college and give him a tedious film grinding job. He does well in that for a year? Great, we'll give you something else - except now we need someone to do that tape grinding job, so recommend us a buddy to fill your shoes before we can move you up. So Brian Daboll brings on Josh McDaniels (who both GA'd at Michigan State) and McDaniels brings on his college teammate Nick Caserio, etc. You start with a bunch of white guys and you hire based on reference (and nepotism - both of Belichick's sons work for the team now) and you're going to still have a bunch of white guys. Without anyone trying to be racist. Nepotism works for young black coaches, too - Leslie Frazier's kid got an entry-level gig in Baltimore's FO - but there are just so many fewer antecedents to nepotize from. This isn't that different from the business world at large.

(There is also privilege involved in being a grad assistant - I imagine they get paid, but it cannot be a lot. I'm guessing the bulk of folks who take gigs like that are getting some financial help from their parents)

The Rooney Rule gets the attention, but I think the entry-level stuff is more important. There are programs like the Bill Walsh Diversity Coaching Fellowship that get talented minority coaches in training camps with teams, which helps them network and get a foot in the door. The Patriots have a coaching assistant now, Atif Austin, who came through that program (and also like a decade of college coaching).
 

Ralphwiggum

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I think this is the right focus. I think it's harder for black coaches to get in the door because (like many professions) so much of getting your foot in the door is nepotism and references. The Patriots' hiring practice (as documented in the Michael Holley books) is to get a young guy out of college and give him a tedious film grinding job. He does well in that for a year? Great, we'll give you something else - except now we need someone to do that tape grinding job, so recommend us a buddy to fill your shoes before we can move you up. So Brian Daboll brings on Josh McDaniels (who both GA'd at Michigan State) and McDaniels brings on his college teammate Nick Caserio, etc. You start with a bunch of white guys and you hire based on reference (and nepotism - both of Belichick's sons work for the team now) and you're going to still have a bunch of white guys. Without anyone trying to be racist. Nepotism works for young black coaches, too - Leslie Frazier's kid got an entry-level gig in Baltimore's FO - but there are just so many fewer antecedents to nepotize from. This isn't that different from the business world at large.

(There is also privilege involved in being a grad assistant - I imagine they get paid, but it cannot be a lot. I'm guessing the bulk of folks who take gigs like that are getting some financial help from their parents)
I think this is spot on. I would add to this the fact that inherent bias is a real thing that leads to minorities being underrepresented in certain jobs. Companies that are serious about promoting and providing a diverse and inclusive workplace spend a lot of time with employees on identifying inherent bias and trying to remove it (or at least be aware of it) when it comes time to make hiring and promotion decisions. It takes self awareness and a real desire to understand some of the ugliness that resides in all of us around this topic, and it's not easy. In an industry where people like Jerry Richardson and Bob McNair held positions of prominence until very recently, I'd be surprised if there is a lot of work being done to help NFL decision makers identify and understand inherent bias and how it impacts the decisions they make about front office and coaching hires.
 

tims4wins

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This is stunning to me. Shades of the Jets hiring Mangini. Did they even watch the game last month? Pats D was a tire fire. I think Flores has potential but this seems like a horrible idea. I hope Miami does it though, high likelihood they will be looking for someone else in 2-3 years.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I guess if you are Miami and you really believe he's the guy you can't wait for him to get another year or two of experience as a coordinator under his belt. But I'm not sure I understand the case for Flores right now. The D was decent at home, maybe even good, but pathetic for long stretches against mediocre offenses, particularly on the road. It isn't like he stepped in for Patricia and fixed everything.
 

tims4wins

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I guess if you are Miami and you really believe he's the guy you can't wait for him to get another year or two of experience as a coordinator under his belt. But I'm not sure I understand the case for Flores right now. The D was decent at home, maybe even good, but pathetic for long stretches against mediocre offenses, particularly on the road. It isn't like he stepped in for Patricia and fixed everything.
To your point, Flores won’t be hired by anyone else this offseason. But I guess if they think he is the man might as well get him in place now. But man does this seem like a reach - one of the biggest I can ever remember.
 

pappymojo

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This is stunning to me. Shades of the Jets hiring Mangini. Did they even watch the game last month? Pats D was a tire fire. I think Flores has potential but this seems like a horrible idea. I hope Miami does it though, high likelihood they will be looking for someone else in 2-3 years.
Being cynical, this would take the heat off the league (potentially buying them a favor from the commish). Plus, if the team does not do well, it accelerates the process of rebuilding by being a bad team.
 

rymflaherty

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Well the other main rumored candidate, Richard, is African-American as well, so they don’t have to hire Flores for that reason.

Richard was actually my favorite, as a Dolphins fan, amongst the rumored lot of underwhelming options. The fact that Richard was reported to have the job yesterday, and a day later it’s flip-flopped to what many would consider a worse choice, seems like the most Dolphins thing possible. It reeks of the poor communication, indecision and everything else that has made this organization a complete clown show. Tomorrow it will probably leak that their ST coach Rizzi is the front runner.
 

Mystic Merlin

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The optimistic way of looking at this is that some or all of these reports were unreliable, rather than accurately documenting what the Dolphins were thinking at some point in time.

Alternatively, the Dolphins may have preferred Richard but Richard might’ve signaled he ultimately wasn’t going to take the job if offered.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I like it. I am sick of the same 42 guys coaching the league the last 15 years. Someone has to take a chance to find the "next guy". If the Dolphins suck the next 3 years while Flores learns the ropes (and they see the potential that he can be a great HC), is that worse than hiring a Marvin Lewis or Greg Williams and winning 40% of your games?
 

Cellar-Door

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This is stunning to me. Shades of the Jets hiring Mangini. Did they even watch the game last month? Pats D was a tire fire. I think Flores has potential but this seems like a horrible idea. I hope Miami does it though, high likelihood they will be looking for someone else in 2-3 years.
The Pats D as performed decently this year with not particularly great personnel in the front 7.
Miami is rebuilding, Flores might be an interesting pick to develop a culture and identity, which in some ways is more important than scheme, especially for a defensive coach.
 

CCR

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SMU_Sox

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I really liked what I saw from Flores this year in his first year at this level. I know he is going to the Dolphins but I can't help but wish him the best of luck going forward. Thought Flores had a lot of potential going forward. As a defensive first-time coach though I worry for him.
 

BigSoxFan

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I really liked what I saw from Flores this year in his first year at this level. I know he is going to the Dolphins but I can't help but wish him the best of luck going forward. Thought Flores had a lot of potential going forward. As a defensive first-time coach though I worry for him.
That and the fact that he doesn’t have a good QB. Will be interesting to see what Miami does there. But as a BC grad, I’m pumped and jacked for him!
 

Red Averages

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I really liked what I saw from Flores this year in his first year at this level. I know he is going to the Dolphins but I can't help but wish him the best of luck going forward. Thought Flores had a lot of potential going forward. As a defensive first-time coach though I worry for him.
Sounds like the Patriots also vouched for his potential, which in this case is even more intriguing given it was within the division. Yet, you won’t see stories about BB for it nationally....
 

Super Nomario

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Schiano seems like the obvious replacement DC given the rumors last year, but on Twitter some have suggested Bret Bielema and that would make sense, too. He was a college DC before becoming head coach at Wisconsin. Brendan Daly called plays in the fourth preseason game this year per Doug Kyed, so he would be the "next man up" presumably. Steve Belichick is the the other internal option.

I'm also curious as to whether Flores poaches some guys from the staff. Daly and Josh Boyer have been position coaches forever and might see more opportunity for advancement moving. Flores has never coached anywhere else so I'm not sure what his network looks like, or how much management might influence his choices. He worked with Pepper Johnson a long time and he's not anywhere right now. Larry Izzo could be hired away from Seattle to be ST coordinator (a position he held with the Texans). He's worked on the offense and special teams as well so he knows guys in those areas.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Schiano seems like the obvious replacement DC given the rumors last year, but on Twitter some have suggested Bret Bielema and that would make sense, too. He was a college DC before becoming head coach at Wisconsin. Brendan Daly called plays in the fourth preseason game this year per Doug Kyed, so he would be the "next man up" presumably. Steve Belichick is the the other internal option.

I'm also curious as to whether Flores poaches some guys from the staff. Daly and Josh Boyer have been position coaches forever and might see more opportunity for advancement moving. Flores has never coached anywhere else so I'm not sure what his network looks like, or how much management might influence his choices. He worked with Pepper Johnson a long time and he's not anywhere right now. Larry Izzo could be hired away from Seattle to be ST coordinator (a position he held with the Texans). He's worked on the offense and special teams as well so he knows guys in those areas.
If Steve B. got the job, the years long media frenzy that would ensue might alone make it worth it.
 

tims4wins

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One good reason to keep on winning is to delay the Flores hiring by Miami. Nice little side benefit that he wouldn't be able to get going until February. So keep winning.
 

pappymojo

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Being cynical, this would take the heat off the league (potentially buying them a favor from the commish). Plus, if the team does not do well, it accelerates the process of rebuilding by being a bad team.
I apologize for being flip earlier. Great post season so far. Deserving of the job if he gets it.
 

Pxer

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Hurts a little to lose a guy who's been here for a lot of success, but there's more talent in the pipeline. Schuplinski is due for a promotion, Caley seems promising, Dante and Fears are still around, Brian Belichick might be waiting in the wings on the offensive side of the ball, etc.
 

Super Nomario

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Hurts a little to lose a guy who's been here for a lot of success, but there's more talent in the pipeline. Schuplinski is due for a promotion, Caley seems promising, Dante and Fears are still around, Brian Belichick might be waiting in the wings on the offensive side of the ball, etc.
Brian is a defense guy apparently. I'm guessing the promotion path is Caley to WR coach and one of the offensive assistants - Cole Polovich or Atif Austin - to TE coach. It could also be a spot for a veteran coach they want to bring in (in anticipation of losing McDaniels to a HC gig, potentially), like Daboll a couple years back. But they don't always name a TE coach.

This makes sense for O'Shea. McDaniels is here for who knows how long, and he had Schuplinski earmarked as his OC if he went to Indy last year (McDaniels and Schuplinski were teammates at John Carroll, along with Caserio). O'Shea's been here a decade, it's his time for an opportunity, and he couldn't get it with the Pats right now and there's no guarantee when or if he'd get his chance.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Ummmm, isn't taking multiple assistants away an unforgivable sin in BB's eyes?

In other news, didn't know that the Colts fired DeGuglielmo. I thought he did a fantastic job stabilizing their OL and protecting Luck.

Apparently Reich wanted his own guy. Googs was the sole remaining hire by McDaniels.
 

soxhop411

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Ummmm, isn't taking multiple assistants away an unforgivable sin in BB's eyes?

In other news, didn't know that the Colts fired DeGuglielmo. I thought he did a fantastic job stabilizing their OL and protecting Luck.

Apparently Reich wanted his own guy. Googs was the sole remaining hire by McDaniels.

I think so. But I don’t think BB can block it since it’s a “promotion”.
 

pappymojo

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Ummmm, isn't taking multiple assistants away an unforgivable sin in BB's eyes?

In other news, didn't know that the Colts fired DeGuglielmo. I thought he did a fantastic job stabilizing their OL and protecting Luck.

Apparently Reich wanted his own guy. Googs was the sole remaining hire by McDaniels.
From what I have heard from Colts fans, the revitalized o-line is attributed to the players they drafted and brought in. Plus, he supposedly threw Denzelle Good under the bus.

https://www.heraldbanner.com/colts-moving-on-from-o-line-coach/article_6f544bdf-77b1-5483-8f54-fa9ac7b034dd.html


Good's brother was shot and killed in October, and the offensive lineman took a week off with the team's blessing to attend the funeral and be with his family. The 27-year-old still was haunted by the loss for a few weeks after his return, and that reportedly did not sit well with DeGuglielmo.

After his release, Good was claimed off waivers by the Raiders and made three starts at right guard to end the season.

During an interview with The Athletic's Vic Tarfur last month Good said that DeGuglielmo was the reason he asked for his release.

"He told me that as long as I was there, I would never play for him again," Good told Tarfur. "I would never play another down because he felt disrespected. I wasn't going to play even though I felt I was as good as anyone on the field playing."