[LOCKED] 2019 AB Watch: Non-legal Views Only

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axx

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Media seems to care, but not enough to get Brown suspended... for now. That's all that matters, and unless they really buy her story when she talks to the NFL I don't know if you should really expect the NFL to do anything until the civil suit is resolved.

there's no police investigative team, but there is an impartial finder of fact within the legal system. Why not rely on that?
It's going to be several months I imagine.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think AB would likely get an injunction and then even if the NFL prevails in court, he doesn’t get suspended until next year. Like with Brady.

I expect he plays.
I’m not sure whether he should get an injunction. Players on the exempt list still get paid. I guess since he’s on a short contract and has incentives he would have a better case than many that he has a right not just to get paid but also to play. But in large measure, the exempt list is supposed to be a somewhat palatable solution that takes away much of the objection the NFLPA might make since the player gets paid while investigation is pending. The player gets a little screwed but it’s really the team that gets screwed most by the exempt list for highly paid players.
 

Marciano490

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I’m not sure whether he should get an injunction. Players on the exempt list still get paid. I guess since he’s on a short contract and has incentives he would have a better case than many that he has a right not just to get paid but also to play. But in large measure, the exempt list is supposed to be a somewhat palatable solution that takes away much of the objection the NFLPA might make since the player gets paid while investigation is pending. The player gets a little screwed but it’s really the team that gets screwed most by the exempt list for highly paid players.
I know there are some unfavorable old cases regarding boxing in some federal jurisdictions, but I think there’s a plausible argument to be made that an athlete playing a sport with a limited lifespan is irreparably harmed by any time unfairly missed.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I know there are some unfavorable old cases regarding boxing in some federal jurisdictions, but I think there’s a plausible argument to be made that an athlete playing a sport with a limited lifespan is irreparably harmed by any time unfairly missed.
I think it’s a good argument but has a little less teeth in the context where he’s getting paid. I think there was a lot said on both sides in Brady where the issue was suspension. Maybe we’ll get to pull all that up if it ever happens.

I think where this is headed is that if she meets with the NFL and they find her credible and view there being some corroborating factors, he will miss games. One way or another. Even if they acknowledge that it’s mostly a he said she said.
 

joe dokes

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I was not talking about "getting sued as a reason for being whacked." *That* is the red herring. Im not even talking about a lawsuit. Im talking about an employer asking about conduct. And yeah, most employers *should* care about out of office conduct that reaches a certain level of horribleness, without regard to whether there's a civil or criminal action, a news story, or any notoriety whatsoever, if the employer becomes aware of it.
People "getting in trouble" for their social media posts, for example, seem to be an example of this.

But digression aside, it sucks that the NFL sucks at it, and there are CBA provisions that come into play, but the NFL and the legal system have different goals and concerns, and I dont think that one should depend on the other to satisfy those goals or concerns. In many (maybe most) cases it might serve the NFL best to wait. But far from all of them. If ABs accuser shows up at Lisa Friel's door and says, "I'd like to talk to you," I dont think Friel can or should say "no thanks."
 

lambeau

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Ray Rice taught the NFL they can't simply rely on the criminal justice system-- it was a PR disaster.
Last week Bills' LB Tyrel Dodson pled down domestic assault to misdemeanor disorderly conduct;
he got a six game suspension, presumably because the NFL still considered it a case of domestic violence.
(Tyrel slapped his girlfriend around because she was rude to him after he threw up in her bedroom.)
The Bills comical announcement was that he would't have even been in camp if it had been domestic violence. Interestingly, he was arrested in May, but not put on the Exempt List until cutdown day, Aug 31.
I'm guessing this was a favor to the Bills so they didn't have to use a roster spot or expose him to wavers.
So the NFL waited for the guilty plea, but independently evaluated the severity. In the Zeke Elliott case, of course, they struggled with the evidence but ended up suspending him because of the bad look. Likely AB
will get six games unless he makes an awfully good impression, which does not seem to be his strong suit.
 

InstaFace

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Likely AB
will get six games unless he makes an awfully good impression, which does not seem to be his strong suit.
My wager offer to Ed Hillel is open to others too. Step right up.

(I'll note that Dodson's case was a criminal investigation that he pled out of, as was Zeke Elliott although he was never formally charged)
 

djbayko

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Ray Rice taught the NFL they can't simply rely on the criminal justice system-- it was a PR disaster.
Last week Bills' LB Tyrel Dodson pled down domestic assault to misdemeanor disorderly conduct;
he got a six game suspension, presumably because the NFL still considered it a case of domestic violence.
(Tyrel slapped his girlfriend around because she was rude to him after he threw up in her bedroom.)
The Bills comical announcement was that he would't have even been in camp if it had been domestic violence. Interestingly, he was arrested in May, but not put on the Exempt List until cutdown day, Aug 31.
I'm guessing this was a favor to the Bills so they didn't have to use a roster spot or expose him to wavers.
So the NFL waited for the guilty plea, but independently evaluated the severity. In the Zeke Elliott case, of course, they struggled with the evidence but ended up suspending him because of the bad look. Likely AB
will get six games unless he makes an awfully good impression, which does not seem to be his strong suit.
Wasn't that a big PR disaster specifically because they didn't rely on the justice system? They conducted their own investigation and handed down a light punishment. There's an argument that says if the league didn't try to play a police-like role for off-field issues, then they wouldn't be blamed when investigations are later found to have gotten something wrong.
 

axx

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You have to remember that Brown hasn't been criminally charged with anything at this point.
 

54thMA

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Of course. I guess my point is that he gets charged & convicted, that would change things wrt suspension. But a civil case isn't going to do much.
Regarding "But a civil case isn't going to do much"...…..what are you basing that on? The way similar situations have been addressed by the NFL in the past?

You should know by now what happened in the past means nothing, Roger just spins the wheel of justice and wherever it lands, he goes from there.

Not to mention whatever pressure certain owners put on him to drop the hammer.

When he speaks/acts, it's the other owners speaking/acting, he is just the warm body in the seat at the time.

Don't kid yourself.
 

axx

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Regarding "But a civil case isn't going to do much"...…..what are you basing that on? The way similar situations have been addressed by the NFL in the past?

You should know by now what happened in the past means nothing, Roger just spins the wheel of justice and wherever it lands, he goes from there.

Not to mention whatever pressure certain owners put on him to drop the hammer.
I know what you mean about the Ginger Hammer but the other cases mentioned in this thread (I'm pretty sure) were all criminal.

Now if the media were to blow it up like Ray Rice that would change things but they don't seem to care enough.
 

InstaFace

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Now if the media were to blow it up like Ray Rice that would change things but they don't seem to care enough.
You've noticed that it was among the leading stories on the national nightly news, right? Not the sports news, the general news? And that ESPN was hammering home the idea that he should be put on the exempt list, led by a (such an awful take I won't even link to it) Max Kellerman extended rant on the subject? Patriots-hating is catnip to sports media. If Brown were on the Detroit Lions I bet only SoSH-level fanatics would even hear about this, and even then limited to some footnote by the local beat writer.

In a fairly- and non-cynically-run sports league none of that would matter, but sadly it clearly does.
 

54thMA

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I know what you mean about the Ginger Hammer but the other cases mentioned in this thread (I'm pretty sure) were all criminal.

Now if the media were to blow it up like Ray Rice that would change things but they don't seem to care enough.
When it comes to the Patriots, the media always cares.

No final result regarding this situation from a league standpoint will shock me either way.
 

54thMA

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You've noticed that it was among the leading stories on the national nightly news, right? Not the sports news, the general news? And that ESPN was hammering home the idea that he should be put on the exempt list, led by a (such an awful take I won't even link to it) Max Kellerman extended rant on the subject? Patriots-hating is catnip to sports media. If Brown were on the Detroit Lions I bet only SoSH-level fanatics would even hear about this, and even then limited to some footnote by the local beat writer.

In a fairly- and non-cynically-run sports league none of that would matter, but sadly it clearly does.
He said it better than I did.

And it's all true.
 

Marciano490

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It doesn’t mean much, but I’m surprised how buttoned up everything has been in the aftermath of the filing. No allegations by other women. No more information or allegations against the accuser besides those videos released the next day.
 

lexrageorge

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It doesn’t mean much, but I’m surprised how buttoned up everything has been in the aftermath of the filing. No allegations by other women. No more information or allegations against the accuser besides those videos released the next day.
There was a revelation that settlement talks had occurred prior to the filing. And it wouldn't surprise me that AB's legal team (which he really needs right now) might have directed him to zip the lip. As for additional allegations, it can take time for those to come out, given how difficult it remains for sexual assault victims to publicize their complaints. Basically, I'm taking the long way to say I agree with you that the relative silence so far doesn't mean much.
 

nighthob

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When he speaks/acts, it's the other owners speaking/acting, he is just the warm body in the seat at the time.

Don't kid yourself.
With the NFL you’re definitely looking for the man that squats behind the man that works the soft machine.
 

joe dokes

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Of course. I guess my point is that he gets charged & convicted, that would change things wrt suspension. But a civil case isn't going to do much.
Why not? if it comes out during a civil case that he did every single thing that she says he did, it might have an effect an what the NFL does.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It doesn’t mean much, but I’m surprised how buttoned up everything has been in the aftermath of the filing. No allegations by other women. No more information or allegations against the accuser besides those videos released the next day.
I wonder if they are talking settlement. A settlement makes it hard for the NFL if she refuses to cooperate at that point. We have seen similar things.
 

Marciano490

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I wonder if they are talking settlement. A settlement makes it hard for the NFL if she refuses to cooperate at that point. We have seen similar things.
That’s what I was thinking. AB’s relative silence would seem to indicate that as well. Someone put a muzzle on his fingers.
 

axx

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That’s what I was thinking. AB’s relative silence would seem to indicate that as well. Someone put a muzzle on his fingers.
That's pretty standard for the Patriots, you know. Plus he's gotta be busy learning the playbook.
 

Harry Hooper

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I wonder if they are talking settlement. A settlement makes it hard for the NFL if she refuses to cooperate at that point. We have seen similar things.
I mentioned before she may not cooperate this coming week anyway, because if the NFL investigates and takes no action, then the credibility of the lawsuit could get damaged a bit.
 

DJnVa

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Story also says another NFL player was present and not name in lawsuit.
 

Mystic Merlin

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One way to look at this: The NFL needs to maximize its ability to tell the NFLPA that it checked the procedural box of ‘investigating’ a potential crime of violence so Goodell can stick him on the exempt list to allow ‘further investigation’ or to protect the league while ‘the legal process unfolds.’ Saying ‘we interviewed all parties and found the accusations credible’ is much stronger optically - if not in reality - than saying ‘we read the civil complaint and found the accusations credible.’

The league does need to be careful not to misstep with the union on this, especially with the looming threat of a stoppage and its history of completely fucking up when wielding its quasi- law enforcement/judicial authority.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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Story also says another NFL player was present and not name in lawsuit.
Could this unnamed player be Marquise (Hollywood) Brown, who went off in his debut for Baltimore last week? I believe they are cousins.

Also, ESPN now reporting that AB turned down a $2M settlement with his accuser. If you're guilty, and you know you're guilty, do you balk at the chance to make this all go away over $2M?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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One way to look at this: The NFL needs to maximize its ability to tell the NFLPA that it checked the procedural box of ‘investigating’ a potential crime of violence so Goodell can stick him on the exempt list to allow ‘further investigation’ or to protect the league while ‘the legal process unfolds.’ Saying ‘we interviewed all parties and found the accusations credible’ is much stronger optically - if not in reality - than saying ‘we read the civil complaint and found the accusations credible.’

The league does need to be careful not to misstep with the union on this, especially with the looming threat of a stoppage and its history of completely fucking up when wielding its quasi- law enforcement/judicial authority.
I fully believe the league will take action next week unless Taylor refuses to cooperate with the league. No other owner will cry for the Patriots and they have a very unsympathetic player. The league will have all the cover it needs if it interviews her given the seriousness of the allegations. Moreover, there are the texts. They are kind of repulsive and while here we Patriots fans have found a reading that suggests denial, good luck with that. Even if that’s the best reading, he plainly talks about ejaculating on her back. This is the league that decided a veteran ref forgot which air pressure gauge he used and must have been wrong. They will do what they want.

I don’t think the league will be all that concerned with the NFLPA on this one given that he already has a $9 million signing bonus guarantee and he gets his nominal weekly regular game checks during an exempt list appearance. Maybe they make a stink about him not getting a chance to earn his $4.5 million in NLTBE incentives.

Best case scenario for the Patriots might well just be a straight 6 game suspension instead of the exempt list.
 

Super Nomario

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Best case scenario for the Patriots might well just be a straight 6 game suspension instead of the exempt list.
For sure. Based on the verbiage Albert Breer shared, they can void Brown's guarantees if he's suspended. I'm not sure they do anything if he's on the exempt list. Or if they decide to stick by him, there's an end date versus the indefinite nature of the Exempt List. The Exempt List is the worst- case scenario here from a Patriots football standpoint.
 
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Could this unnamed player be Marquise (Hollywood) Brown, who went off in his debut for Baltimore last week? I believe they are cousins.

Also, ESPN now reporting that AB turned down a $2M settlement with his accuser. If you're guilty, and you know you're guilty, do you balk at the chance to make this all go away over $2M?
Furthering the possibility of Marquise Brown (edit) being the unnamed player - just heard a report that that player was a ROOKIE.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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One thing we have kind of glossed over is the statement in the complaint that she took and passed a polygraph. If she offers to redo it for the NFL or if the administrator was a legit guy with a detailed report that the league can have evaluated, they would have plenty of grounds to exempt list him.
 

GoDa

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If AB simply says something like "we had multiple consensual encounters during that time - including a time i jacked on her back while she was laying on my bed watching porn (not church) videos. She's lying about what happened because I wouldn't give her $$$ and (I think) because she was feeling guilty about cheating on her fiance," what's the counter?
 

dcmissle

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Furthering the possibility of Marquise Brown (edit) being the unnamed player - just heard a report that that player was a ROOKIE.
He is a cousin. He reportedly was a witness. I saw and recall nothing seems a safe harbor.

But I’ll wait for Jerry Thornton to fire the Harbaugh conspiracy angle on this. Though in fairness, Jerry would not have signed him and did not think the Pats would.
 

lexrageorge

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For sure. Based on the verbiage Albert Breer shared, they can void Brown's guarantees if he's suspended. I'm not sure they do anything if he's on the exempt list. Or if they decide to stick by him, there's an end date versus the indefinite nature of the Exempt List. The Exempt List is the worst- case scenario here from a Patriots football standpoint.
Breer's interpretation is highly questionable and should not be relied upon for guidance.

There is nothing the Pats can do if Brown is on the Exempt list from a contract standpoint. That's the whole point of the exempt list: it's essentially a paid suspension. He would miss the NLTBE incentives. I believe the Pats could still cut him, but whether they would do that is unclear at this point.

Even if he ends up being suspended, it's not clear at all that the $9M in guarantees can be voided, as they have been paid out. I'm skeptical that Breer knows what he's talking about. The Pats couldn't get back the money they paid out to Hernandez.
 

lexrageorge

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If AB simply says something like "we had multiple consensual encounters during that time - including a time i jacked on her back while she was laying on my bed watching porn (not church) videos. She's lying about what happened because I wouldn't give her $$$ and (I think) because she was feeling guilty about cheating on her fiance," what's the counter?
They could ask him to provide details about the business investment, and ask if there is any way those details can be corroborated. They could also ask if he can corroborate the consensual nature of the relationship.

Not a lawyer, but my guess is that if Brown could provide solid evidence of a consensual sexual relationship, that would prove problematic for Taylor in the civil lawsuit, as she made a big deal of it being purely professional. However, the NFL can act independently, and can basically apply whatever standard it wants when it comes to discipline. If Taylor cooperates and her story is at all remotely credible (two very important "ifs" at this stage), those corroborating details about extortion and consensual nature will be investigated by the league while Brown is on the exempt list.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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Breer's interpretation is highly questionable and should not be relied upon for guidance.

There is nothing the Pats can do if Brown is on the Exempt list from a contract standpoint. That's the whole point of the exempt list: it's essentially a paid suspension. He would miss the NLTBE incentives. I believe the Pats could still cut him, but whether they would do that is unclear at this point.

Even if he ends up being suspended, it's not clear at all that the $9M in guarantees can be voided, as they have been paid out. I'm skeptical that Breer knows what he's talking about. The Pats couldn't get back the money they paid out to Hernandez.
I read somewhere that the guarantee is in two installments, and the first one isn't due until something like Sep 22. The other one is due at some later point in the season. Has that been dubunked?
 

E5 Yaz

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Glazer: NFL wants to interview both of them this week, along with witnesses provided by both, and documentation that Brown has provided.
 

dcmissle

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I read somewhere that the guarantee is in two installments, and the first one isn't due until something like Sep 22. The other one is due at some later point in the season. Has that been dubunked?
It does not matter. The conduct at issue occurred before AB signed the contract. One more time — you cannot void a contract based on post-contractual conduct unless you get a promise that the conduct did not occur and then show that the promise was violated.

That’s a slightly dumbed down version, but that is the law. We’re not getting money back.

Edit — now if he were suspended, not Exempt List, but suspended — and that sticks, then no, he would not be entitled to be paid for games missed. But that is a different analysis.
 
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