This will be a key to Brown earning his contract. Not just his ability to guard bigger guys, but his ability to guard just about anyone.
2019-2020 Celtics Regular Season Thread
- Thread starter Devizier
- Start date
The latter part of this post is where we disagree. Kemba’s skillset, much like Hayward’s, was skewed by a system and role. They were both good players who put up career years at the climax of their physical peak in their mid to late 20’s. We made two huge contract overpayments as both already had their career years while we pay for their future down slide.
I understand the Kemba signing but was never a fan of it. When you have 3 wings who thrive with the ball in their hands it isn’t necessary to pay close to max for a veteran in his down slide years to now play a role that will limit his effectiveness for his skillet.
This is my point. Kemba is at his best taking over games with his scoring. We should have looked to add a more deferential PG who is a better defender while being a better fit with the offense running through our wings. He wasn’t necessary and his contract certainly wasn’t. If we were going to spend big money at the position I would have preferred Brogdon or we could have went for a cheaper but better fit with someone like Beverley or Satoransky.
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Interesting post HRB. Especially when you take a look at how good the C's played with Smart starting the preseason game that Kemba took off. The offense was beautiful that evening. That said, Kemba is going to earn his keep taking the important shots at crunch time. That's the value I think Danny was going after in signing him.
I was all ready to disagree, since I think the Hayward part is off (he was younger than Kemba and also much, much better defensively) Then I got to the bolded, and I'm totally on-board. Especially with Hayward looking more effective and Tatum modernizing his game, I think Kemba may well end up being a luxury on offense who hurts their defensive identity.
I'm willing to give it a couple weeks before freaking out though.
Enes is out 2 games with a left knee contusion.
View: https://twitter.com/ASherrodblakely/status/1187751188047056898
View: https://twitter.com/ASherrodblakely/status/1187751188047056898
I don't disagree that Kemba doesn't replace 100% of Kyrie's production, whether he's 80% or 90% is up for debate. I really don't think it's fair to classify last year as some outlier career year for Walker though. He saw a slight increase in counting stats from increased usage, but his counting stats have been excellent for 3 years going back, and his advanced stats have been nearly identical going back 4 years.
Tiny didn’t “adapt”......he was Top-3 in assists 3x prior to becoming a Celtic and was a physical shell of his former self after tearing his Achilles. We also didn’t pay him $30m per.
He was lousy that first year because he came in out of shape after sitting out a year, but his skills were still there when he recovered. Sure, it's not a perfect analogy, but great players adapt to their teammates.
The money is irrelevant, especially since you can't compare what players were making in 1980 with what they make today. If the team wins with Kemba on the floor, he will have earned whatever they are paying him.
The money is irrelevant, especially since you can't compare what players were making in 1980 with what they make today. If the team wins with Kemba on the floor, he will have earned whatever they are paying him.
Can we give it like 2 games before calling it a disaster? The C's played one of the best defensive teams in the East, on the road, in a season opener while working 4 new players into the rotation. This game was setup for a bad loss. They missed 14 free throws. Make half of those and we've got a different game down the stretch.
Philly threw a lot of length at Kemba. I'm interested to see if others teams do the same and how he and Brad react to that. Thybulle lived up to his reputation with a pretty impressive showing on the defensive end. He's going to be a useful bench piece for Philly.
Philly threw a lot of length at Kemba. I'm interested to see if others teams do the same and how he and Brad react to that. Thybulle lived up to his reputation with a pretty impressive showing on the defensive end. He's going to be a useful bench piece for Philly.
Meh, in addition to the missed free throws, Kemba and Tatum missed wide open shots, not just contested shots. The player that Philly did smother with their defense was the rookie Edwards, who did not look good.
The Celtics could have used a veteran shooter off the bench in that 2nd half, a guy like Ilyasova, Belinelli or the 28 year-old Nicolo Melli, with whom the Celtics will have to deal tonight.
The Celtics could have used a veteran shooter off the bench in that 2nd half, a guy like Ilyasova, Belinelli or the 28 year-old Nicolo Melli, with whom the Celtics will have to deal tonight.
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I did not see Edwards get “smothered” at all - I saw him pull a lot of attention from the defense which lead to easy scores. He looked like a nervous rookie missing open shots in his first NBA games but his shooting will not be an issue going forward.
Please define what you mean by "career year" for Walker? Because aside from PPG, his numbers last season were pretty consistent versus the previous few years. And by most advanced metrics, he was a bit worse/less efficient last year.
I don't believe knowledgeable fans will be disappointed if Kemba averages less than 25.6 ppg. Noone expects that of him, and I don't think even Walker expects his usage to remain the same as it was in Charlotte. If he wanted to, he could have stayed in Charlotte and would have made more money (just not the full supermax), or gone somewhere else with fewer scoring wings. Contrary to the revisionist history some people paint, Walker was one of the premier free agents last season.
People will naturally be upset if he shoots 4-18 every night, but that is simply not going to happen. The whole team was in a shooting slump in Philly; some of that was probably due to Philly's size and defense. But some of that was also just random bad luck, which can happen in a single game. There's a reason the NBA playoffs are best-of-7 as opposed to one-and-done.
People will naturally be upset if he shoots 4-18 every night, but that is simply not going to happen. The whole team was in a shooting slump in Philly; some of that was probably due to Philly's size and defense. But some of that was also just random bad luck, which can happen in a single game. There's a reason the NBA playoffs are best-of-7 as opposed to one-and-done.
He's specifically said that his usage won't remain that high and said that is part of the point. He has had some individual accolades and now wants to be on a team with a chance to play postseason games every season.
He was forced to be less efficient because teams were running doubles on him every night. Looking beyond advanced metrics it was a challenge that he blew away.
Yes and my position is that his game isn’t designed to excel under these circumstances.
I’m not calling the team a disaster, I like us a lot to bounce back tonight, as Philly is an awful matchup for Kemba. Regardless of performance.....his new role certainly isn’t required to be filled by a $30m player.
He really wasn't much less efficient from the previous two seasons - certainly not by most measures I have seen. I am just curious what you are looking at to characterize its as a career year. PPG?
Similar numbers against defenses more geared toward him. In the Hornet games I watched it was noticeable that Kemba was doubled and trapped more on PNR’s than ever before. The lack of offense around Kemba allowed defenses to gear their halfcourt sets toward stopping him.
Kemba had a great night drawing offensive fouls, 2 steals and 2 blocks. Shooting was still pretty meh. But, had some big buckets late.
It's amazing how much better JB looks than, well, he's ever looked before. Bounce pass to GH on the break isn't something I've seen him do before.
And all Kemba can talk about is his teammates. And it certainly doesn’t seem forced or fake. We’re gonna love him this season. Even my man HRB will come around.
I can't speak for HRB but based on his prior posts, I think he likes Walker. But if anyone is hoping that the Kyrie/Kemba comparisons are going to quietly go away, I suspect they will be very disappointed.
I won't be doing it because Irving doesn't play in Boston anymore while Walker does. But I suspect the press will be using this angle all season long.
That pass was sick but it was his takes which showed a level of guile that only comes with experience as well as his defensive positioning. If this isn't just a small sample size and he can keep this up, he will actually end up being underpaid with that contract.
This is the horn I've been tooting wrt Jaylen for awhile: he's shown an ability to progressively learn and add stuff to his game that is very, very rare for mechanical, low-feel players (which I'd say he is). The only guy I've really seen do the same thing over the years (although he started from a MUCH higher level and is MUCH MUCH better) is Kawhi (who is still improving as a passer, even in his prime). Jaylen was unplayable defensively in year 1, and only started learning how to pass at the end of year 3. Now he's starting to add some passing and a few reads.
Kemba looked way better when he stopped worrying about deferring and went full Charlotte. Of course, the problem is how to make that work with the rest of the offense over time. I think there's some stuff to be done, but I agree with HRB that it's an issue to watch.
If we're doing Kyrie comparisons: Kyrie is a better shot-maker, but Kemba seems better at getting to his spot and generating open shots, which makes up for that somewhat.
If we're doing Kyrie comparisons: Kyrie is a better shot-maker, but Kemba seems better at getting to his spot and generating open shots, which makes up for that somewhat.
Nobody's talking about this but: One impressive thing about this team (only two games, yes) is that last night there was only one team in the NBA with fewer than 10 turnovers, and it was the Celtics. And the first game, even against a fearsome Philly defense, they turned it over only 10 times. That's pretty damn good for a team this young. Hopefully they can keep that up.
Yeah--unfortunately one reason is that the ball movement hasn't been great. I'd be fine turning it over a bit more in exchange for the ball going side-to-side better. I do think that some of that ball movement will come more with familiarity.
Agree for the first game, but not so much for the second. They were whipping it around last night on a bunch of plays. Also, on turnovers, a considerable part of avoiding them is not doing stupid stuff like shuffling your feet (traveling) or putting a shoulder or elbow into a guy (offensive foul) or carelessly leaving the ball unprotected. Anyway, the low turnovers are a pleasant surprise so far (only two games of course). The Knicks had 26 last night.
Agree that there are a lot of positive signs on offense, even with the room to improve.
One call I'm going to make early: at some point they start shuffling rotations so that Kemba (even while starting and closing) plays more minutes on bench units. It's an easy way to give him a context where he can just be himself and not overthink in terms of trying to share the ball. They also need to manage the minutes of their 29 year-old PG so that he remains an asset later in the contract.
I don’t dislike Kemba at all as a player. I’m not crazy about Kemba’s role on this particular team playing to his strengths for the money he’s being paid over the next few years as a Jaylen/Jayson place setter.
As lovegtm said above.....this is just more of the growth he shown me in his game last season. Jaylen is going to be the greatest beneficiary of Kyrie leaving. He’s been growing like a weed for two years. I smell an All-Star push!
I don't disagree. On the plus side, they should be able to control his minutes and reduce asset depreciation if they need to move him later on. He should be a neutral to positive asset even at age 31-32 (see: Utah trading assets for Conley), and he was probably the best use of that salary slot given that.
Fit is what I was commenting on. I think his fit will be good for 2 reasons. 1. He isn't about "getting mines", he's about team and 2. he can be the go to guy they need. IT4 and Kyrie both played that role in their own ways. I think this team needed that player and Kemba will be it, if and when needed (see #1). Meaning, if JB, JT or Hayward are hot, he will feed the fire and defer.
Now that we’ve started talking about this, my dream Kemba scenario would be MEM not conveying, and then doing a 3-way where Kemba goes to a contender, MEM, assets, and third party assets go to DC, and Beal comes here. Obviously cant get happen until after the season.
I think it’s way too soon to be too worried about the Kemba fit. At the absolute very least, it seems like he’ll be a good veteran teammate for JT and JB.
As we saw in the 4th last night, there will still be a need for him to do his Charlotte thing at times.
Other thoughts:
JB had one of his best all around games ever, providing efficient scoring In quarters 1 to 3 while Tatum and Walker weren’t.
JT is still working things out but there’s a legitimate effort there to not settle for mid range jumpers all the time, and he’s taking and hitting threes.
Hayward looks better than last year.
Rob Williams is doing more than I expected from him. I thought he showed a level of cluelessness on defense in the preseason that was going to keep him out of the lineup. To be sure, Stevens has managed his minutes very carefully, picking and choosing his spots withTL, but he’s been able to make plays in that limited role.
Grant Williams was a revelation last night. Tied for team lead with 4 assists in only 21 minutes, drew a couple of charges (and was called for a foul on another play where he clearly drew a charge), rebounded, matched up effectively against Ibaka and Gasol while playing small ball C in the 4th. Didn’t shoot the ball well, but did pretty much everything else well. He’s going to be a key guy in the Celtics rotation right away.
As we saw in the 4th last night, there will still be a need for him to do his Charlotte thing at times.
Other thoughts:
JB had one of his best all around games ever, providing efficient scoring In quarters 1 to 3 while Tatum and Walker weren’t.
JT is still working things out but there’s a legitimate effort there to not settle for mid range jumpers all the time, and he’s taking and hitting threes.
Hayward looks better than last year.
Rob Williams is doing more than I expected from him. I thought he showed a level of cluelessness on defense in the preseason that was going to keep him out of the lineup. To be sure, Stevens has managed his minutes very carefully, picking and choosing his spots withTL, but he’s been able to make plays in that limited role.
Grant Williams was a revelation last night. Tied for team lead with 4 assists in only 21 minutes, drew a couple of charges (and was called for a foul on another play where he clearly drew a charge), rebounded, matched up effectively against Ibaka and Gasol while playing small ball C in the 4th. Didn’t shoot the ball well, but did pretty much everything else well. He’s going to be a key guy in the Celtics rotation right away.
To be clear: I think Kemba is awesome for chemistry (which matters a lot for team defense) and he’s also clearly better than the other options they could have signed. I just think his talents won’t be maximized fully, and they might need to flip someone into that salary slot in the next year or two.
I’m having fun with him and this team though, so just gonna enjoy the ride for now.
I’m having fun with him and this team though, so just gonna enjoy the ride for now.
With very few exceptions, I think every very good to excellent team has players who are used suboptimally. It's a direct result of having a lot of talent on the roster.
That too. At the end of the day, it seems anything is better than the cancer from New Jersey.
Kemba’s post game interview with Abby was absolutely perfect. Starting with thanking the fans, talked about how supportive his teammates and coaches were, the importance of staying together when things go wrong....he was like a politician, but damn was it refreshing. Plus you got a goofy Jason Tatum popping in to ask how his first win was, and Abby was like, “um, it was my first question.”
Yes. Ideally Kemba will be able to flip the switch and do Charlotte Kemba from time to time when it is needed, such as the beginning of the 4th quarter yesterday.
I'm not sure Waters dresses.
Carsen may see some floor time if they get a double-digit lead