2019-2020 Celtics Regular Season Thread

wade boggs chicken dinner

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but they also seem to devolve into "my possession, now your possession" pattern with Tatum forcing things.
I don't see this at all. Yes, at times guys take terrible shots but I feel that's more because they mis-estimate the matchup or get caught up after making a move where they are stuck but not because the guys have a "my turn / your turn" mentality like last year,

I.e., I don't think anyone is forcing up shots because they wonder when they are going to touch the ball next.
 

lovegtm

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Glad to hear that. Watched the replay four times and never really saw him roll it, at least not the classic way. Was worried that it might be a high sprain, achilles, or foot.
Yeah, I was worried about knee the way he just went down. I'm fine with Grant and Semi getting extra meaningful minutes.
 

lovegtm

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I don't see this at all. Yes, at times guys take terrible shots but I feel that's more because they mis-estimate the matchup or get caught up after making a move where they are stuck but not because the guys have a "my turn / your turn" mentality like last year,

I.e., I don't think anyone is forcing up shots because they wonder when they are going to touch the ball next.
Agree--it's more that the team is experimenting with a lot of lineups, while Tatum and Brown are also in the middle of learning the offensive end. I think it's better to have this disjointedness now and work through it, because Hayward will plug seamlessly into any lineup whenever.
 

lovegtm

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Also loved the gameplan against Booker. Brad seems to be really changing his defensive philosophy to suit the personnel this year: using the team speed to do a lot more doubling and trapping, and trusting the speed on the back side to scramble correctly. It's cool to see him getting creative again after being somewhat shackled by circumstances last year--he's upping his game.
 

Montana Fan

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While watching the game last night, I noticed all of the Suns who came from different organizations. Barnes, Kaminsky, Oubre, Johnson, Rubio etc. It made me think about the amount of homegrown players on the Celtics. In reviewing the roster, 12 of the 15 have only played for CBS and the Celts in the NBA. This is a homegrown squad which makes it all the more appealing.
 

HomeRunBaker

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While watching the game last night, I noticed all of the Suns who came from different organizations. Barnes, Kaminsky, Oubre, Johnson, Rubio etc. It made me think about the amount of homegrown players on the Celtics. In reviewing the roster, 12 of the 15 have only played for CBS and the Celts in the NBA. This is a homegrown squad which makes it all the more appealing.
Unless you’re a Suns fan and your homegrown talent is Chriss, JJ, and Bender......in which case Rubio, Oubre, and Frank The Tank would be deliciously appealing. :)
 

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We haven't had much of an opportunity to see Brad's crunch time lineup with everyone healthy, but I wonder how much he'd go super small with Tatum at the 5 against most matchups. If that's the plan, which allows the Celtics to put their best 5 guys on floor (with Marcus Smart in place of the typical 5), then I don't see a need to upgrade the center position, even putting aside the fact that Williams, Theis and Kanter are all playing pretty well and bring complementary skills sets to the table.

While not a true rim protector, Tatum's weakside help defense has come far enough that I think that lineup has potential. Obviously certain matchups (Embiid, etc.) would force the Celtics to play a traditional big, but I think it gets some run once Hayward is back.

It's hard to think of a center who's going to be available who really moves the needle much. The team doesn't need scoring from the 5 spot; the strength of this team is built around 4 or 5 guys who all attack the basket from the perimeter, and can all shoot, pass and defend. A Valenciunas type doesn't fit with that. Steven Adams' contract is an albatross and the C's can't match that salary anyway. Capela maybe, but would the Celtics give up significant assets to pay Capela on that contract, when they have a guy who might become Capela on the roster already? I don't see it. I suppose Favors is interesting if New Orleans decides they want to free up minutes for Jaxson Hayes, but Favors is a guy who needs touches on offense that this team shouldn't probably be giving him.
Isn’t Aron Baynes exactly the guy this team could use? With PHX in the 7th spot in the west, there’s no way they trade him, but he would be ideal.
 

DJnVa

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Smart said he "turf toed it". Now, not that he suffered turf toe, but that's how he described it. He said if there was game today he would play and he'll be good for Clippers. Of course, he's always going to say that.

The key will be if there's swelling overnight and what the training staff says. A random west coast game isn't hugely important, but I'd like to see how they do with him.
 

shoelace

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Isn’t Aron Baynes exactly the guy this team could use? With PHX in the 7th spot in the west, there’s no way they trade him, but he would be ideal.
Nemanja Bjelica, and not just because he put 12 and 14 up on the Celtics on Sunday, would be a nice match for their existing set of bigs. I just have no idea what his market would look like, the Celtics could offer Kanter and the Milwaukee pick, but I'm not sure that's enough to get it done.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Nemanja Bjelica, and not just because he put 12 and 14 up on the Celtics on Sunday, would be a nice match for their existing set of bigs. I just have no idea what his market would look like, the Celtics could offer Kanter and the Milwaukee pick, but I'm not sure that's enough to get it done.
I don’t recall Ainge having any interest in Bejelica either of the last two times he was a FA. I can’t imagine him now trading assets for him.


Smart said he "turf toed it". Now, not that he suffered turf toe, but that's how he described it. He said if there was game today he would play and he'll be good for Clippers. Of course, he's always going to say that.

The key will be if there's swelling overnight and what the training staff says. A random west coast game isn't hugely important, but I'd like to see how they do with him.
Currently in layover status on way to Vegas with the wife. Was thinking of doing a one-day California excursion on Thursday without even realizing that the Celtics are here on Wednesday. I plan about as well as R-Williams.
 

shoelace

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I don’t recall Ainge having any interest in Bejelica either of the last two times he was a FA. I can’t imagine him now trading assets for him.
That might be true, but the Celtics had players at the 5 who could shoot threes the last time Bjelica was a free agent. Theis can hit an occasional three, but he's not the same kind of shooter as Bjelica. Whether it's Bjelica or another similar player, I think the Celtics would benefit from a proper stretch 5 to give them some lineup versatility.
 

benhogan

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Currently in layover status on way to Vegas with the wife. Was thinking of doing a one-day California excursion on Thursday without even realizing that the Celtics are here on Wednesday. I plan about as well as R-Williams.
If you come bring a bucket of water.

Yea, I looked at Clipper vs Celt tickets the other day. But the thought of taking the 10 to Staples from Santa Monica at rush hour made me shudder.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-BmxK-0Jts&list=PLFv4y-PVQCXAzzp181XIut2hCBb5wGwIC
 

lovegtm

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That might be true, but the Celtics had players at the 5 who could shoot threes the last time Bjelica was a free agent. Theis can hit an occasional three, but he's not the same kind of shooter as Bjelica. Whether it's Bjelica or another similar player, I think the Celtics would benefit from a proper stretch 5 to give them some lineup versatility.
This really seems like “guy who had a good game against us” overreaction syndrome.
 

shoelace

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This really seems like “guy who had a good game against us” overreaction syndrome.
Nah, Bjelica's been a solid player for the last several seasons, with stable conventional (39% shooter from three on his career on nearly 800 attempts) and and advanced metrics (positive RPM in each of his last three seasons). He's a solid 20-25 MPG player in the same salary slot as Kanter who offers them a skill they're lacking in their big rotation. To my mind, he's a definite upgrade over Kanter, and doesn't require additional salary to go out to acquire him.
 
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lovegtm

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Nah, Bjelica's been a solid player for the last several seasons, with stable conventional (39% shooter from three on his career on nearly 800 attempts) and and advanced metrics (positive RPM in each of his last three seasons). He's a solid 20-25 MPG player in the same salary slot as Kanter who offers them a skill they're lacking in their big rotation. To my mind, he's a definite upgrade over Kanter, and doesn't require additional salary to go out to acquire him.
So what are the Celtics giving up to acquire him? Giving up first round picks for the Nieman Bjelicas of the world is not a great habit.
 

Devizier

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Agree--it's more that the team is experimenting with a lot of lineups, while Tatum and Brown are also in the middle of learning the offensive end. I think it's better to have this disjointedness now and work through it, because Hayward will plug seamlessly into any lineup whenever.
Tatum is also being asked to run the second unit a lot. I thought that was interesting. He struggles with that degree of attention, which isn’t surprising.
 

shoelace

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So what are the Celtics giving up to acquire him? Giving up first round picks for the Nieman Bjelicas of the world is not a great habit.
One of their seconds this season or the Milwaukee pick if that gets it done. The Celtics's have Robert Williams, Grant Williams, and Carsen Edwards receiving minutes this season. Unless Langford is a bust, he'll be requiring minutes at some point. They'll have their own first and the Memphis first this season or next season. I think the upgrade from Kanter to Bjelica is worth what would right now be the 27th pick in the draft on a team that's already crowded with young, developmental players. Others may disagree, but I'm not sure who the Celtics can trade Kanter for without packaging him with an asset. He's an incredibly limited player.
 

lovegtm

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One of their seconds this season or the Milwaukee pick if that gets it done. The Celtics's have Robert Williams, Grant Williams, and Carsen Edwards receiving minutes this season. Unless Langford is a bust, he'll be requiring minutes at some point. They'll have their own first and the Memphis first this season or next season. I think the upgrade from Kanter to Bjelica is worth what would right now be the 27th pick in the draft on a team that's already crowded with young, developmental players. Others may disagree, but I'm not sure who the Celtics can trade Kanter for without packaging him with an asset. He's an incredibly limited player.
Then you let Kanter rot on the bench. Or you trade the pick for someone who actually moves the needle. Randomly giving up first round picks because you’re worried about development time is...sub-optimal.

Also, most years, you can combine multiple picks to move up a bit, or do a trade like #24 for MIL and roll it over a year.
 

benhogan

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That might be true, but the Celtics had players at the 5 who could shoot threes the last time Bjelica was a free agent. Theis can hit an occasional three, but he's not the same kind of shooter as Bjelica. Whether it's Bjelica or another similar player, I think the Celtics would benefit from a proper stretch 5 to give them some lineup versatility.
Bjelica would be an excellent bench piece (at the 4) and I would ship Kanter/more for him. He reminds me of Mirotic, who I always liked. Brad has wisely tried to hide Kanter's defense with the 2nd unit but not sure that even works. Teams hunt Enis out on the pick n roll, he's a super "good dude", but I like how the C's play with a defense-first 5.

While spindly, I'd like to see Celtics kick the tires on Nerlens Noel as a super cheap, defense-first 5, rim protector. He's not strong enough to guard Embiid solo. BUT the C's will have 2-3 players in the lane to slow JoJo & Co down since the 76ers have no quick perimeter threats.

A revolving/fresh Theis-TL-Noel, defense-first 5s could run a lot of big/bulky centers into the ground and add to the C's transition offense

So adding Bjelica/Noel would be an excellent upgrade, while not interfering with the development of Brown and Tatum's offense or the return of Utah Hayward. While retaining fiscal/cap responsibility.
This really seems like “guy who had a good game against us” overreaction syndrome.
If Sac fades, I believe Bjelica's shooting/size/contract has him on a lot of contenders radars, regardless of how he played recently

Not sure what it would take to attain Bjelica. BUT the C's have a plethora of developing young players besides Tatum/Brown (Waters, Romeo, Grant, Edwards, Tacko). Stapling one of our late 2020 first-rounders to switch out a defensive negative (Kanter) for multi-year positive (Bjelica) isn't the worst idea to contending the next 2 seasons

YMMV on your thoughts of that upgrade and if you think the Celtics are contenders this season
 
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shoelace

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Then you let Kanter rot on the bench. Or you trade the pick for someone who actually moves the needle. Randomly giving up first round picks because you’re worried about development time is...sub-optimal.

Also, most years, you can combine multiple picks to move up a bit, or do a trade like #24 for MIL and roll it over a year.
I'm not worried about developmental time. I don't believe the Celtics intend to draft multiple first rounders this season, especially if the Grizzlies pick conveys and they have three. I don't really believe that late first round picks carry a ton of value for a team that's already trying to develop a lot of players picked between 20-40 in the last few seasons. I'm not sure it can be packaged into anything meaningful unless the Celtics are trading one of their actually good players like Smart, or packaging it with Kanter and Theis, which seems dumb because Theis is a good fit for the team. We just disagree about their value. I think Bjelica's pretty good and would add more value this and next season when the Celtics could legitimately contend for a title than whatever the 27th pick might develop into. Guys like Theis and Bjelica who don't demand shots and perform specific functions are good roleplayers at the 5 for this Celtics team. Bjelica's not a Theis, he can hit threes with a hand in his face. Being able to put Bjelica at the 5 with Kemba, Smart, Brown and Tatum would be a pretty strong lineup and definitely give the Celtics much more than any lineup Kanter features in. To me, it's worth upgrading to a 21st century big, but that might not be true for you.
 

lovegtm

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I'm not worried about developmental time. I don't believe the Celtics intend to draft multiple first rounders this season, especially if the Grizzlies pick conveys and they have three. I don't really believe that late first round picks carry a ton of value for a team that's already trying to develop a lot of players picked between 20-40 in the last few seasons. I'm not sure it can be packaged into anything meaningful unless the Celtics are trading one of their actually good players like Smart, or packaging it with Kanter and Theis, which seems dumb because Theis is a good fit for the team. We just disagree about their value. I think Bjelica's pretty good and would add more value this and next season when the Celtics could legitimately contend for a title than whatever the 27th pick might develop into. Guys like Theis and Bjelica who don't demand shots and perform specific functions are good roleplayers at the 5 for this Celtics team. Bjelica's not a Theis, he can hit threes with a hand in his face. Being able to put Bjelica at the 5 with Kemba, Smart, Brown and Tatum would be a pretty strong lineup and definitely give the Celtics much more than any lineup Kanter features in. To me, it's worth upgrading to a 21st century big, but that might not be true for you.
Yeah, I understand what you’re looking for, so it’s just a slight difference of opinion. My issue with Bjelica is that he’s not at all a 5 defensively, and basically plays the same position as our other big wings, just not as well.

I’m totally fine with adding another 5–there just aren’t many guys out there who actually fit the bill. Re @benhogan and Nerlens...if he’s available at a low price I might be interested just as depth to replace Kanter. In terms of value Theis and TL are already better imo, but center depth for injuries is useful.
 

benhogan

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Yeah, I understand what you’re looking for, so it’s just a slight difference of opinion. My issue with Bjelica is that he’s not at all a 5 defensively, and basically plays the same position as our other big wings, just not as well.

I’m totally fine with adding another 5–there just aren’t many guys out there who actually fit the bill. Re @benhogan and Nerlens...if he’s available at a low price I might be interested just as depth to replace Kanter. In terms of value Theis and TL are already better imo, but center depth for injuries is useful.
agreed.

The injury bug at the 5 over the last few seasons has me skittish about just relying on TL/Theis.

I want as many of those fungible rim running/defense-first 5s, on the cheap, that I can collect.

I wouldn't want Bjelica on the floor with 4 other offensive alphas. Bjelica is a bulky 4 that would exist well with TL/Theis/Noel. We all want to avoid those offensive halfcourt scoring droughts, Bjelica would be an excellent offensive weapon in the halfcourt w/the 2nd unit IMO
 
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lovegtm

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agreed.

The injury bug at the 5 over the last few seasons has me skittish about just relying on TL/Theis.

I want as many of those fungible rim running/defense-first 5s, on the cheap, that I can collect.

I wouldn't want Bjelica on the floor would 4 other offensive alphas. Bjelica is a bulky 4 that would exist well with TL/Theis/Noel. We all want to avoid those offensive halfcourt scoring droughts, Bjelica would be an excellent offensive weapon in the halfcourt w/the 2nd unit IMO
Hmmm, the way I see it, Bjelica only helps you if you're missing one of Tatum/Brown/Hayward. I think if you're missing any of those 3, the team is pretty screwed in the playoffs anyway, so at that point you're talking about giving up assets for a purely regular-season upgrade. In that regard, it feels like a very Wizards/Pelicans/Nets type of move to me (remember when the former two were trading away their 1st rounders every year for marginal upgrades?), although reasonable minds can differ.

Edit: also, as shoelace mentioned, the Celtics are going to need to find a LOT of developmental minutes the next few years. That's a good thing! One reason Toronto consistently develops late 1st/2nd guys is that they give them real roles in a winning environment. Particularly at wing, I don't see much point in blocking those guys with vets. (Center and PG are different because of the depth issues; I'm always down for a marginal upgrade there.)

Gonna do a thread soon about regular-season philosophy, since I think that's the source of a lot of recent discussion disagreements.
 
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Saints Rest

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We can't trade for him.
Ever? Or until a certain date? I seem to recall this coming up before, but I can't find the answer.
As I said originally, I see no way that PHX trades him, and I don't regret for one second having to trade him away to get the cap room to get Walker, but Baynes is the perfect fit for this team, now.
 

lovegtm

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Ever? Or until a certain date? I seem to recall this coming up before, but I can't find the answer.
As I said originally, I see no way that PHX trades him, and I don't regret for one second having to trade him away to get the cap room to get Walker, but Baynes is the perfect fit for this team, now.
From what I saw in the CBA, they can’t reacquire him this year, even if he passes through another team first. I could be wrong.
 

shoelace

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Yeah, I understand what you’re looking for, so it’s just a slight difference of opinion. My issue with Bjelica is that he’s not at all a 5 defensively, and basically plays the same position as our other big wings, just not as well.

I’m totally fine with adding another 5–there just aren’t many guys out there who actually fit the bill. Re @benhogan and Nerlens...if he’s available at a low price I might be interested just as depth to replace Kanter. In terms of value Theis and TL are already better imo, but center depth for injuries is useful.
That's part of the issue, my thought process here is that the Celtics need to acquire an additional big who is better than Kanter. There aren't a ton of options, Bjelica feels like an intriguing option on a short term contract (his 2020-2021 salary isn't guaranteed) that offers them a skill they could use. Dude is 6' 10'' barefoot and 235, I think he can credibly play the 5 in a number of matchups and in that role would offer them offensive spacing that none of the other bigs can provide (41% on catch and shoot threes last season). It's true that he hasn't been asked to do that much in his career, but I don't think it's impossible that he could play passable defense in that role, and we're talking about his replacing one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

As benhogan pointed out, Theis and Williams tend to struggle to stay on the court, there's virtue to having another big that doesn't suck. I would love to see them acquire a defensively minded 5 who could even kind of switch on defense, but I'm not sure how many of those players are going to be available for the Celtics with the limitations on what they can offer in trade. I also want them to be feeding Robert Williams minutes in that role, as I think he can develop into a defensive weapon, and having an additional offensive weapon on the bench would be useful.

You are right, though, it does boil down to philosophical difference. I'm all for adding veteran roleplayers that will raise the floor of this team, for the sake of seeding this season, and because I would rather see someone like Bjelica in a playoff game than Grant Williams at this point in his career. If the cost of that is a late first, that seems worth it to me. I can totally see the virtue of keeping it and adding another developmental piece as well, I'm generally in favor of keeping draft picks and trying to add low cost roleplayers. Given the number of assets they have, using that pick to improve this years team even marginally seems worth it to me. In most other circumstances it would not, but this team feels like it could get to the Conference finals to me, and I'm okay with a little bit of short term thinking with respect to the Milwaukee pick. Bjelica may not be the player, but I'd be okay with sending that pick out to improve the 5 or just to add another skilled big.
 
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Big John

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Goga Bitadze has some very good moments against the Nets yesterday. But he's a rookie. Frankly I do not see anyone out there who could be had for a reasonable price and who would improve upon the Theis, TL, Kanter triumvirate, especially when you throw Grant Williams in at pf.
 

chilidawg

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Goga Bitadze has some very good moments against the Nets yesterday. But he's a rookie. Frankly I do not see anyone out there who could be had for a reasonable price and who would improve upon the Theis, TL, Kanter triumvirate, especially when you throw Grant Williams in at pf.
Really wanted Goga at 14. He'd be a great 3rd 5 at this point, and maybe more down the road. Not happening now though.
 

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The team defense has been so impressive. Smart/Tatum/Jaylen are elite at helping then recovering, Kemba has fed off of it as well and done a damn good job. This has masked the lack of size down low, especially Smart. I give Theis and TL credit, but they can't do this against Milwaukee or Philly in the playoffs.

Tomorrow nights game is going to be tough, Clippers have crazy length defensively and can score almost at will. I'm assuming that the C's are the fortunate team that gets to deal with the debut of PG/Kawhi together, lucky us.
 

lovegtm

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The team defense has been so impressive. Smart/Tatum/Jaylen are elite at helping then recovering, Kemba has fed off of it as well and done a damn good job. This has masked the lack of size down low, especially Smart. I give Theis and TL credit, but they can't do this against Milwaukee or Philly in the playoffs.
...
What evidence is there for this, besides it being a national media meme?

If anything, I think the Celtics defensive style could work better in the playoffs, since you can lock in and give higher levels of effort. We saw this consistently with GSW’s small defensive lineups in the past.

(Note: I’m not saying that the Celtics would be favorites in the East or anything, just that they absolutely have a solid chance against either Philly or MIL).
 

benhogan

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Really wanted Goga at 14. He'd be a great 3rd 5 at this point, and maybe more down the road. Not happening now though.
yep. I wanted PJ Washington at 14, after he was nabbed I thought Bitadze would have been a good pick

Danny should lob a call in and offer local Indiana hero Romeo Langford straight up for Goga. who knows it's still early

Not sure how Nate gets minutes for Goga with Sabonis, Turner & Leaf
 

RorschachsMask

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What evidence is there for this, besides it being a national media meme?

If anything, I think the Celtics defensive style could work better in the playoffs, since you can lock in and give higher levels of effort. We saw this consistently with GSW’s small defensive lineups in the past.

(Note: I’m not saying that the Celtics would be favorites in the East or anything, just that they absolutely have a solid chance against either Philly or MIL).
Oh I actually like the Celtics chances in the playoffs, i just mean neither of them are able to defend Giannis or Embiid down low. They'd both be in constant foul trouble.

What I like that they can do against the Sixers is you can throw different looked doubles at Embiid and he will get flustered and turnover prone. Against the Bucks it won't work as well, Giannis is too good of a passer, so their discipline on defense would have to be borderline perfect.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Oh I actually like the Celtics chances in the playoffs, i just mean neither of them are able to defend Giannis or Embiid down low. They'd both be in constant foul trouble.

What I like that they can do against the Sixers is you can throw different looked doubles at Embiid and he will get flustered and turnover prone. Against the Bucks it won't work as well, Giannis is too good of a passer, so their discipline on defense would have to be borderline perfect.
Without having stats, seems like Cs do a pretty credible job on Giannis.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Don't know why people are so eager to get rid of Kanter. Yes, his defense is awful. But his scoring is something that really benefits the second unit. It's a safety valve to be able to throw it down to him and let him try to score or get fouled. Plus, he really does try hard on the offensive glass. For a team full of bench players who are more defensive-minded than offensive, having an offensive minded center isn't such a bad thing, and given that he's playing against second units, his lack of defense isn't highlighted.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Outside of last year's playoff series I feel like they've handled Giannis reasonably well also. Neither of those guys are completely stoppable obviously. Between Brown, Theis, TL, Kanter, Semi, Grant Williams, and Marcus's new affinity for guarding 7 footers, I think they have enough tools to have puncher's chances against those line ups. Durability will be the concern there as others have noted, being down one or two "bigs" really starts to limit the available defensive options for Brad to cycle through.
 

RorschachsMask

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Without having stats, seems like Cs do a pretty credible job on Giannis.
They do pretty good at making him pass the ball more, they also do a good job of making him settle for jumpers. Unfortunately they are the only team in the league that Giannis shoots over 40% from 3 against.

I'm fully in favor of Morris being gone, but he did a decent job on Giannis. I'm hoping by the post season that Grant do a pretty good job of it.
 

lovegtm

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Don't know why people are so eager to get rid of Kanter. Yes, his defense is awful. But his scoring is something that really benefits the second unit. It's a safety valve to be able to throw it down to him and let him try to score or get fouled. Plus, he really does try hard on the offensive glass. For a team full of bench players who are more defensive-minded than offensive, having an offensive minded center isn't such a bad thing, and given that he's playing against second units, his lack of defense isn't highlighted.
I have soured on Kanter somewhat, and I think the reason is that the Celtics defense is based a lot on effort/scheme/speed, as opposed to dominant rim protectors who erase mistakes (for example). In that framework, a wink link like Kanter at a critical defensive position has more of a negative effect that’s hard to balance out.

That frenetic defensive energy also gets them transition buckets going the other way, and they seem to lose that identity when Kanter comes in.
 

benhogan

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What evidence is there for this, besides it being a national media meme?

If anything, I think the Celtics defensive style could work better in the playoffs, since you can lock in and give higher levels of effort. We saw this consistently with GSW’s small defensive lineups in the past.

(Note: I’m not saying that the Celtics would be favorites in the East or anything, just that they absolutely have a solid chance against either Philly or MIL).
GSW's small ball line up contained 4 HOFers and a DPOY...more of an example of Dynastic talent

not sure they are something the Celtics can replicate
 

lovegtm

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Apr 30, 2013
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GSW's small ball line up contained 4 HOFers and a DPOY...more of an example of Dynastic talent

not sure they are something the Celtics can replicate
I’m only talking about the defensive end, and it’s a lot more comparable in that regard.

Edit: meaning that we already have evidence that the Celtics can be very good defensively, and the question is whether that approach would hold up better or worse in a playoff setting. I’d argue better, and GS is a useful, if imperfect, analogy for understanding why.
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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I have soured on Kanter somewhat, and I think the reason is that the Celtics defense is based a lot on effort/scheme/speed, as opposed to dominant rim protectors who erase mistakes (for example). In that framework, a wink link like Kanter at a critical defensive position has more of a negative effect that’s hard to balance out.

That frenetic defensive energy also gets them transition buckets going the other way, and they seem to lose that identity when Kanter comes in.
agree with this.

I've also gone lukewarm on Enes, even though he hasn't played much. Nothing can happen until Dec.15th so we'll get a bigger dose of Kanter. Brad deploying him against 2nd unit players is helpful

BUT I mostly love Kemba, Jaylen, Tatum and Utah Hayward. And believe we can always have at least two of them on the floor, when healthy, at all times to retain offensive integrity.

Also, feel this Celtic team works best with a defense-first, quick Center. All the trapping/doubling has been effective and I believe there are better centers for this instead of Kanter. TL has been blossoming using this strategy.

I'm fully in favor of Morris being gone, but he did a decent job on Giannis. I'm hoping by the post season that Grant do a pretty good job of it.
the thought of MaMo guarding Giannis just made me break out into a cold sweat. The only thing MaMo was good at on the defensive side of the floor was quickly taking the ball out of bounds after a made basket so he could prepare for his next ISO.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Dec 24, 2002
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I have soured on Kanter somewhat, and I think the reason is that the Celtics defense is based a lot on effort/scheme/speed, as opposed to dominant rim protectors who erase mistakes (for example). In that framework, a wink link like Kanter at a critical defensive position has more of a negative effect that’s hard to balance out.

That frenetic defensive energy also gets them transition buckets going the other way, and they seem to lose that identity when Kanter comes in.
Regarding the C's defense, after 13 games, they are in the top ten in three of the four defensive factors tracked by sites like cleaning the glass. They are a top four team in points per possession, and five and six respectively in eFG% and TOV%. The result is the third best differential in the NBA thus far.

I don't think the Celtics will or should get rid of Kanter as he has a role in certain situations and he has enough guile to eat minutes capably in the event of injuries etc. However the C's have forged a pretty good defensive identity early in the year mostly with Kanter unavailable. You have to wonder if his decreasing minutes after his second game are a function of the team seeing what the numbers and the eye test are showing - the Celtics are worse with him on the floor. I agree with wbcd that his scoring and offensive rebounding are valuable but I can't see him getting >20 mpg regularly unless the Celtics can somehow scheme to cover for him on the defensive end or the need to do so out of necessity.
 

lovegtm

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Regarding the C's defense, after 13 games, they are in the top ten in three of the four defensive factors tracked by sites like cleaning the glass. They are a top four team in points per possession, and five and six respectively in eFG% and TOV%. The result is the third best differential in the NBA thus far.

I don't think the Celtics will or should get rid of Kanter as he has a role in certain situations and he has enough guile to eat minutes capably in the event of injuries etc. However the C's have forged a pretty good defensive identity early in the year mostly with Kanter unavailable. You have to wonder if his decreasing minutes after his second game are a function of the team seeing what the numbers and the eye test are showing - the Celtics are worse with him on the floor. I agree with wbcd that his scoring and offensive rebounding are valuable but I can't see him getting >20 mpg regularly unless the Celtics can somehow scheme to cover for him on the defensive end or the need to do so out of necessity.
Agree with all this, and I’d add that their particular scheme/identity is one in which it’s hard to scheme around him.

This is all probably is just a function of a lot of Celtics outperforming expectations on the defensive end. Smart is taking his already superlative defense to a new level, Tatum is blossoming defensively, Jaylen is stronger, Kemba is better than advertised, etc.

Even with all that though, the Kanter signing seems weird and meh.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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The hole on our backend is not filled by the Bjelicas of the world either. He has turned himself into a half decent offensive player. But that's not a problem that we have.
Bjelica is an effective floor spacer and elite 3-pt shooter on one end. Where did the idea come from that he can defend 5's? He can maybe be passable defending backup 4's masquerading at the 5 on a second unit but he's a perimeter player and quite possibly a worse defender of real 5's than Kanter.