2018 Ryder Cup- Le Golf National

cshea

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He’s an ass and has no right to complain about being sat, but maybe his comments about being split from Spieth have some merit? Maybe it a perception, but It seems like the Euro’s show up and don’t care who they are paired with. The Americans on the other hand appear to make a bigger issue out of pairings. Guys can’t/don’t want to play with other guys. Someone always seems to get grumpy. Maybe Furyk was a little too player friendly?

In the end, JT/Spieth ended up being the best pair the Americans had, and Reed got to hack it around with Tiger so he should STFU, but they need to figure out a way to build more team chemistry.
 

BigMike

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Reed could be a problem for the U.S. Moving forward. He will likely be on the team most years, but you get the feeling he might be one of the least popular guys on tour.

Now I think that someone like DJ would likely be fine with him, as he doesn't really interact with people anyway
 

Koufax

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Or the team captain could just sit him until Sunday.
 

RedOctober3829

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Screw Patrick Reed, man. He played like absolute garbage on Friday and has the nerve to say that it wasn't smart to sit him? Looks like Spieth/JT was a pretty damn good decision to pair together. The only way he gets by with the shit he pulls is if he wins. He ripped the PGA Tour during the Dell for the seats he got at Fenway and looked like an ass doing that too.
 

Number45forever

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I'm so out on Patrick Reed. If he's not going to be a stud in the Ryder Cup, he has zero appeal. He's unlikable, he's got a shady history of cheating, his ego is out of control. I just don't get how you can have so little self-awareness to not realize he got his ass sit down because he literally shot 82 in fourball (according to a marker with the match). He got to play with Tiger F. Woods (whom he idolizes) and then basically bitched and moaned afterwards about how his pairing with Spieth was broken up. They weren't splitting the only good US pairing (Spieth and JT) just to appease Patrick Reed's ego.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Euro team continues to be fun. Their press conference yesterday was amazing (although not as good as the LOSING press conference after Sunday at Hazeltine...that was hilarious). The Tommy-Molinari video is so great. Could you picture any two US teammates doing that?

Alas. Ryder Cup is the fucking best. Can't wait for 2020. Stricker vs. Westwood for captains?
 

The Needler

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Patrick Reed's an easy target, but he's not the problem. Yes, he's an asshole, but he's one of the few players on this team with a winning career record, and he's not the reason they lost this one. He's now 3-0 in singles (compare to Spieth 0-3), and let's face it, Tiger is the pairing of death. Spieth and Thomas turned out to be a great paring, but the reality is, so was Spieth and Reed. It may well have been that Thomas could've paired up effectively with someone else. Maybe Rickie wouldn't have been so chokey if he was with his buddy JT. Who knows. But IMO, Reed's right that this shouldn't be about being pals. He's a douche, but he's a douche that has shown he can win in this format. The team needs to accept that and play golf.
 

E5 Yaz

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I do wonder how much an advantage was gained by playing the French Open. Overall, I'm sure having familiarity with the course is a positive.
Justin Thomas -- who, I think, really gets the entire Ryder Cup premise -- was the only member of the US team who played in the French Open. You would think that maybe one or two more would have gone
 

cshea

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I think the course prep thing is a little overblown. JT himself downplayed it saying the course was going to play completely different from how it played in the French Open. These guys play major championships on courses they haven’t seen before. It was narrow with penal rough. The problem wasn’t that they were surprised about this, the problem was they couldn’t even put an iron into the fairway. I also posted it earlier, but the French Open falls in between the US Open and Open. It’s not easy logistically for American players to play. They either have to make 2 trips back and forth for the Open or stay in Europe for 3-4 weeks.

Reed’s 2-year victory lap and chest thumping where he would constantly joke about “carrying Jordan on my back” whenever asked about the Ryder Cup is probably one of the reasons Jordan wanted out.
 

The Needler

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Reed’s 2-year victory lap and chest thumping where he would constantly joke about “carrying Jordan on my back” whenever asked about the Ryder Cup is probably one of the reasons Jordan wanted out.
I'm sure you're right. I'm sure it was also partly about when Reed complained that "he needs to be Jordan Spieth" to get a fair ruling a few months back. But I kind of don't care.

I was watching the "Famous Five" documentary about the European teams of the 80s, and one of things (I think it was Faldo) said, was that part of what motivated them was wanting to go out there and beat their partner in every team match and show them that they were the better player. That competitiveness is something that Reed has, and I don't doubt it's a good thing. (And why Tiger could possibly be the worst pairing for him, because he's probably the only player on the team Reed respects and doesn't think he's superior to.)
 

gtg807y

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The NYT interview is serving to overshadow the fact that Reed's wife getting into it on Twitter with randos (and an editor from Golf Channel) about the split with Speith yesterday morning, before the matches. Basically the kind of stuff you'd say with a burner account, except she had her name on it. She did she "didn't know" when asked to confirm if the account was hers, which... yeah, sure. Anyway, can't imagine why anyone would not want to play with him.
 

Eagle3

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Not surprising that Speith would ask to play with JT. Wanting to play with one of your best friends who also happens to be top 5 in the world over a prick who has publicly dissed you (whether it was intentional or not) is a no brainer.

They should just put Reed with Bubba next time if they both make the team. Nobody likes either one them, so it solves two problems . .
 

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Not surprising that Speith would ask to play with JT. Wanting to play with one of your best friends who also happens to be top 5 in the world over a prick who has publicly dissed you (whether it was intentional or not) is a no brainer.

They should just put Reed with Bubba next time if they both make the team. Nobody likes either one them, so it solves two problems . .
I actually don't think that's true about Bubba.
 

RedOctober3829

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Patrick Reed's an easy target, but he's not the problem. Yes, he's an asshole, but he's one of the few players on this team with a winning career record, and he's not the reason they lost this one. He's now 3-0 in singles (compare to Spieth 0-3), and let's face it, Tiger is the pairing of death. Spieth and Thomas turned out to be a great paring, but the reality is, so was Spieth and Reed. It may well have been that Thomas could've paired up effectively with someone else. Maybe Rickie wouldn't have been so chokey if he was with his buddy JT. Who knows. But IMO, Reed's right that this shouldn't be about being pals. He's a douche, but he's a douche that has shown he can win in this format. The team needs to accept that and play golf.
It shouldn't be about who is friends with who, but to come out afterwards and say he should have played with Spieth just looks stupid given that was the best pairing the team had. Maybe he should take a step back and look at the fact that he did not play well on his own ball Friday morning but he won't. They lost 5 of the last 7 holes of their match to give away the point to the Europeans. He also did not play well Saturday either. Him and Woods won 2 holes all match long. The way he was playing what was Furyk supposed to do? He chose to play Woods twice on Saturday and I'm not sure it was the right decision but what choices did Furyk have with the number of players who came up small. His comments come off as being a sore loser.
 

Eagle3

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I actually don't think that's true about Bubba.
Unless things have changed recently, there is lots of evidence to back up that it is true. Just Google "Bubba Watson disliked" or something similar. Among other things, he was the runaway winner of a poll asking the players who was least liked on tour. That was in 2015, so maybe he's changed. Patrick Reed came in second then, but it's a safe bet he'd win now.
 

gtg807y

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I think it is true about Bubba, not that he's as much of an unlikable ass as Reed - though he still is an unlikable ass - but that he seems like a total weirdo. Webb seems to be the only guy either willing or able to put up with it. Every time they've both been on the team for a Ryder or Presidents' Cup, they've been paired together in every team session. Poor Webb. On today's Shotgun Start pod (which I highly recommend), Andy Johnson said, only partially joking, that Webb was the US' best player this weekend since he was able to get 2 points despite being chained to Bubba all weekend. I agree.
 

The Needler

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It shouldn't be about who is friends with who, but to come out afterwards and say he should have played with Spieth just looks stupid given that was the best pairing the team had. Maybe he should take a step back and look at the fact that he did not play well on his own ball Friday morning but he won't. They lost 5 of the last 7 holes of their match to give away the point to the Europeans. He also did not play well Saturday either. Him and Woods won 2 holes all match long. The way he was playing what was Furyk supposed to do? He chose to play Woods twice on Saturday and I'm not sure it was the right decision but what choices did Furyk have with the number of players who came up small. His comments come off as being a sore loser.
As I said last time, "Spieth and Thomas turned out to be a great paring, but the reality is, so was Spieth and Reed. It may well have been that Thomas could've paired up effectively with someone else. Maybe Rickie wouldn't have been so chokey if he was with his buddy JT."

I don't think it looks as stupid as you do. When you assess breaking up a successful team, you have to look at what each of the two new teams does, not just one.

As for sore loser comments, that's basically a US tradition at this point. Who cares? If it's Phil "23 losses" Mickelson trashing someone, it's inspirational; but if it's Patrick Reed, let's bury him.
 

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Unless things have changed recently, there is lots of evidence to back up that it is true. Just Google "Bubba Watson disliked" or something similar. Among other things, he was the runaway winner of a poll asking the players who was least liked on tour. That was in 2015, so maybe he's changed. Patrick Reed came in second then, but it's a safe bet he'd win now.
I think he gained a whole lot of cred for serving as as assistant captain on the last Ryder Cup team and totally supporting the team.
 

RedOctober3829

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As I said last time, "Spieth and Thomas turned out to be a great paring, but the reality is, so was Spieth and Reed. It may well have been that Thomas could've paired up effectively with someone else. Maybe Rickie wouldn't have been so chokey if he was with his buddy JT."

I don't think it looks as stupid as you do. When you assess breaking up a successful team, you have to look at what each of the two new teams does, not just one.

As for sore loser comments, that's basically a US tradition at this point. Who cares? If it's Phil "23 losses" Mickelson trashing someone, it's inspirational; but if it's Patrick Reed, let's bury him.
Reed would have a leg to stand on if he was playing great and carrying his partner who did not play well. But when he did not play well in any of his matches before Sunday how do you know he would have played any better with Spieth? Just because a pairing was successful in the past does not mean it would have been this week. It sounds like he is using not being paired with Spieth as an excuse for why he played so bad. Just own up to having a bad week.

Yes, it looks bad when anyone trashes the captain like Phil did. I'm not the biggest Mickelson fan in the world, so you're not going to find me giving him any sympathy for what he said.
 

The Needler

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Reed would have a leg to stand on if he was playing great and carrying his partner who did not play well. But when he did not play well in any of his matches before Sunday how do you know he would have played any better with Spieth? Just because a pairing was successful in the past does not mean it would have been this week.
You don't know. That's why in my original post, I said "who knows." But when you're doing a post-mortem on an unmitgated disaster of an ass-kicking, these questions are worth asking, and Furyk and Spieth should not get a free pass. These were major changes; if they had worked out, fantastic. But when they result in a shitshow for all but one team, there are legitimate questions about the trickle down effect that are fair to be asked. I just read the espn article, and it largely sums up what I was suggesting:

What complicates matters is that Spieth went 3-1 playing with Thomas. But by splitting up Spieth and Reed, it created other potential problems. Reed played twice with Woods in four-ball and lost -- and didn't break 80 if he counted strokes on his own ball on Saturday.

And while Thomas had success with Spieth, he would have been considered a natural to play with Rickie Fowler, with whom he had teamed to go 2-0-1 at last year's Presidents Cup.

The idea was the teams of Spieth-Reed, Thomas-Fowler and Brooks Koepka-Dustin Johnson formed the nucleus to build around. From there, you needed just one more team or to mix and match Woods, Mickelson, Tony Finau, Bryson DeChambeau, Webb Simpson and Bubba Watson.

And when the U.S. side was whitewashed in the Friday afternoon foursomes, the pairings came into even more focus.

"I felt like we came out of, in the past, having our most successful pairing in the Ryder Cup," Furyk said on Thursday after the first-session pairings were announced. "We had one very good pairing. I think we came out of it with two very good pairings. The idea was to double up and try to get two."

And that did not work out so well, simply because finding a place for Reed proved to be problematic. The natural spot was with Woods, an idol, and they had the unfortunate task of going up against the powerhouse tandem of Tommy Fleetwood and Francesco Molinari -- losing twice. It didn't help that Reed's form has fallen off recently.

More than that, it forced the Americans into some awkward foursome groupings on Friday. It meant Mickelson with DeChambeau in a format that was not conducive to Mickelson's inconsistent play of late; it meant putting Koepka, a two-time major winner, on the bench. The 0-for-4 result doomed the U.S.'s attempt at a first overseas victory in 25 years.
 

Eagle3

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I dont recall any of this drama from the Euros when they got beat in 2016. Either they just deal with it better, or they do a better job of keeping it internal.
 

RedOctober3829

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You don't know. That's why in my original post, I said "who knows." But when you're doing a post-mortem on an unmitgated disaster of an ass-kicking, these questions are worth asking, and Furyk and Spieth should not get a free pass. These were major changes; if they had worked out, fantastic. But when they result in a shitshow for all but one team, there are legitimate questions about the trickle down effect that are fair to be asked. I just read the espn article, and it largely sums up what I was suggesting:
I read that same article. This weekend did not come down to pairings. It came down to the Americans not executing well enough both off the tee and on the greens to have a chance to win.
 

patinorange

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Reed just doesn’t fit the profile and the arc of today’s professional golfer. He’s a dipshit, but I kind of have a soft spot for him. I’m really disappointed he played so poorly after that fantastic showing in 2016.

Fleetwood and Molinari are flat out studs. I’m not sure pairings had anything to do with that complete and thorough ass kicking.
 

gtg807y

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I dont recall any of this drama from the Euros when they got beat in 2016. Either they just deal with it better, or they do a better job of keeping it internal.
They prefer to complain about course setup and bad behavior by American fans after they lose.
 

Eagle3

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As I said earlier, make Bubba and Reed partners if they both make the next team. Maybe they find "nobody likes me" common ground and rally around each other. Or, they get in a fistfight on the course. Either way it'd be fun to watch.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I know we (and analysts) talk a lot about team play - which I think is legit - but do the Euros play more match play events?

Cshea, not trying to combative, I just don't agree with much you're saying here, so please don't find offense, we're just on opposite sides. No snark intended.

I think the course prep thing is a little overblown. JT himself downplayed it saying the course was going to play completely different from how it played in the French Open. These guys play major championships on courses they haven’t seen before.
Most don't actually. Most contenders will go play practice rounds ahead of time. And with exceptions like Chambers Bay or Merion, I'm failing to think of a course in a recent major that hasn't been played before or couldn't be played by any one of these guys (which don't exist).

It was narrow with penal rough. The problem wasn’t that they were surprised about this, the problem was they couldn’t even put an iron into the fairway.
Agreed to an extent but playing it more would have helped with that - wind, contours, reading greens, false fronts, etc. Some course knowledge goes a long way - your book or caddie might tell you the fairway slopes left, but until you've hit it to the wrong point or take the wrong chance or gamble to bomb and gouge at the wrong time, you're screwed (to an extent). They can play a practice round and imagine heavy rough or a tougher setup to get in the mindset of how they know (at least roughly) the Euros set the course up. Also agreed they couldn't seem to even do it when they tried to play safe (and they played like shit in general) but still. Course knowledge helps; a lot; especially with a tough set up.

I also posted it earlier, but the French Open falls in between the US Open and Open. It’s not easy logistically for American players to play. They either have to make 2 trips back and forth for the Open or stay in Europe for 3-4 weeks.
This was one particular venue that the tournament happened to fall between the two Majors. Even then:
US Open - June 14th -17th
French Open - June 28th - July 1st
British Open - July 19 - 22nd

They can't make that turnaround? It's not like they're flying Southwest and shacking up in a Holiday Inn Express. I'm not shedding a tear that they'd have to spend 3 weeks in Europe if they chose not to do a turnaround.

The next one is 4 years away with a known venue; if they can't find time between now and then to fly over to Rome and play somewhere they think they have a chance of being on the team at, they don't care enough; which is fine, I'm not begrudging any of them for prioritizing income for an exhibition. But the Europeans cross the pond all the time to play both tours, I'd be quite comfortable wagering they've either played the US courses scheduled or would and they all can make their schedule work to accommodate.

Even if you disagree course knowledge doesn't help (or want to argue to what %), I think you'd agree the more you have the better.
 

The Needler

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As I said earlier, make Bubba and Reed partners if they both make the next team. Maybe they find "nobody likes me" common ground and rally around each other. Or, they get in a fistfight on the course. Either way it'd be fun to watch.
Bubba’s about to turn 40 years old, and as recently as the beginning of this year had fallen out of the top 100 in the world. With any luck, we’ll avoid him catching fire over a couple months in 2020 like he did this year, and this will be his last appearance.
 

The Needler

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It’s going to be fun seeing how Tiger handles everyone at the Presidents Cup next year, including how he uses his four captain’s picks. If he plays like he did this year, he’ll probably make it on points (he’s currently 9th), and if Jordan repeats his performance this season, he won’t even be close (currently 22nd). One would assume Tiger would pick himself if he’s close to the top 8.
 

cshea

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I know we (and analysts) talk a lot about team play - which I think is legit - but do the Euros play more match play events?

Cshea, not trying to combative, I just don't agree with much you're saying here, so please don't find offense, we're just on opposite sides. No snark intended.


Most don't actually. Most contenders will go play practice rounds ahead of time. And with exceptions like Chambers Bay or Merion, I'm failing to think of a course in a recent major that hasn't been played before or couldn't be played by any one of these guys (which don't exist).



Agreed to an extent but playing it more would have helped with that - wind, contours, reading greens, false fronts, etc. Some course knowledge goes a long way - your book or caddie might tell you the fairway slopes left, but until you've hit it to the wrong point or take the wrong chance or gamble to bomb and gouge at the wrong time, you're screwed (to an extent). They can play a practice round and imagine heavy rough or a tougher setup to get in the mindset of how they know (at least roughly) the Euros set the course up. Also agreed they couldn't seem to even do it when they tried to play safe (and they played like shit in general) but still. Course knowledge helps; a lot; especially with a tough set up.



This was one particular venue that the tournament happened to fall between the two Majors. Even then:
US Open - June 14th -17th
French Open - June 28th - July 1st
British Open - July 19 - 22nd

They can't make that turnaround? It's not like they're flying Southwest and shacking up in a Holiday Inn Express. I'm not shedding a tear that they'd have to spend 3 weeks in Europe if they chose not to do a turnaround.

The next one is 4 years away with a known venue; if they can't find time between now and then to fly over to Rome and play somewhere they think they have a chance of being on the team at, they don't care enough; which is fine, I'm not begrudging any of them for prioritizing income for an exhibition. But the Europeans cross the pond all the time to play both tours, I'd be quite comfortable wagering they've either played the US courses scheduled or would and they all can make their schedule work to accommodate.

Even if you disagree course knowledge doesn't help (or want to argue to what %), I think you'd agree the more you have the better.
No worries, didn’t take it as combative.

I 100% agree that the more course knowledge you have the better off you are. As for the majors prep, my impression (and I could be completely wrong) is that these guys typically play 1-2 rounds at the major course a month or so in advance and then obviously the practice rounds week of. It is only one guy, but I know DJ showed up at Shinnecock this year without ever playing the course. The team got in 3 practice rounds in this week. The extra 18-36 holes in the lead up certainly would’ve helped more than hurt, but I don’t think it was a deciding factor. They just played lousy.
 

RedOctober3829

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Apparently DJ and Koepka got into it after the matches too.

"Anger among the United States team over their dismal Ryder Cup defeat boiled over in the post-match festivities when their two top-ranked players, Dustin Johnson and Brooks Koepka, had to be separated after a flare-up.

So much for this new era of Stars and Stripes camaraderie. Witnesses recounted how the pair almost came to blows after they had been invited into the Europe team room, a few hours after the resounding home success at Le Golf National.

The reason for the bust-up was not known, but it was a huge surprise as they are regarded as best friends. They played together in the Saturday afternoon foursomes, when they were beaten by Justin Rose and Henrik Stenson. They work out at a Florida gym together and their similar big-hitting styles earned them the nickname of the “Bash Brothers”. How appropriate that seems now.

Johnson’s partner, Paulina Gretzky, prompted rumours of a rift between the pair when she deleted every picture of Koepka from her Instagram account. She was said to be close by when the row erupted. One of the European players’ wives also witnessed the incident, and an insider reported that she was “clearly shocked and upset by the nastiness, which was very threatening”.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/ryder-cup/american-teammates-dustin-johnson-and-brooks-koepka-in-shocking-ryder-cup-bustup-37374726.html
 

PaulinMyrBch

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That article has the instagram delete wrong. She deleted pics of DJ from her instagram a few weeks ago, prompting some internet speculation. But, if she did have a bunch of pics of Brooks on her insta, they would have come to blows a lot sooner than Sunday night.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Also, on the reasons for the poor performance, I think those are all valid points and may have been something you could point at if we lost 14.5-13.5. But we got skunked 17.5-10.5. That’s fairly historic and the context for me is if 4-5 guys had played the course a few more times we lose 16-12. Lots of things went wrong and its sad to think this level of talent laid that kind of egg. I’ve been watching the Ryder Cup a long time, and I know we’ve always struggled away and on the foursomes, but this was a level of bad I’ve never seen. They get 17.5 of 28 points with little input from Rory? I never saw this coming.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Is that your own thoughts or is that out there somewhere?

Also, not sure about Karma, was it ever confirmed that DJ cheated?
To first - I’m pretty sure there’s an implication here. I may be reading into it too much, I will grant you that. Mea culpa.

To second - what kind of confirmation are you looking for? Other players saying he had sex with their wives? The wives? It’s pretty well known; in the press and personally (I have friends that work in the business, including tour, Callaway, TM, GC), I don’t want to go TheoShmeo here, but yeah, he banged multiple other tour players wives. I’m not a huge fan of infidelity or home breakers, but your mileage may vary.

Not saying I’m right to even speculate, but just saying if true, he had it coming.
 

lapa

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I don’t think you can get away from the fact that it means more to our players than yours. That’s nothing weird, we got battered for many years but the seve Faldo years saw a European resurgence and the Ryder cup followed with that. We played better than you guys at the right times this time but I mean for an hour on Sunday the USA actually was ahead as it stood so I think the whole blowout angle can be a bit overexaggerated. Reading between the lines it’s hard not to say that in general Europeans see the Ryder cup as a highlight and are gutted if they lose - for the actual event, some of the us players tend to sound like they’re focusing more on their own input to the effort.
Also I think the us still tend to pick ‘name’ players on how good their solo careers are and rep but Europe has gone for players who obviously are all about the Ryder cup

It sucks not to have the 14.5-13.5 matches of course

It’s easy to say personalities shouldn’t matter but that seems so strange to me, if the captain isn’t addressing all this stuff up front then what’s he there for? Either sit problem players and tell them up front or find a way to tell the team this is the plan ahead of time. In which case anyone whining after the fact should just shut the fuck up.
 

Zomp

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lol

Rosaforte confirms Koepka and DJ had to be separated after the euro party and on the plane home an anonymous player said Patrick Reed was a baby all week and begged to play with Tiger.
 

gtg807y

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This is quickly becoming the greatest Ryder Cup ever.

https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2018/10/2/17927760/dustin-johnson-brooks-koepka-fight-ryder-cup

It’s unclear why the two were in a confrontation at the afterparty. James Corrigan of theTelegraph first reported the incident, citing witnesses as “clearly shocked and upset by the nastiness, which was very threatening.” After all these team competitions, the two sides usually come together and party deep into Sunday night. This incident occurred at a party on the European team room side, according to Corrigan. His report has been confirmed by multiple outlets on both sides of the Atlantic. Each report characterizes the incident as the two “having to be separated.”

A Golf Digest report on Tuesday cited a source saying Paulina Gretzy, DJ’s fiancee, was a “central figure in the incident” and that Koepka’s girlfriend was also involved.

The report from L’Équipe, a French newspaper, describes an incident on the plane ride over to the Ryder Cup. The report also added that captain Jim Furyk had to talk to both players and ask them to get over the issue and put the team first.
 

Zomp

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Aug 28, 2006
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The Slums of Shaolin
My french isn't much but that L'Equipe article says Tiger was a good teammate throughout but was physically drained from playing in as many tournaments as he did and Bubba seemed like he didn't want to be there.

Also someone is quoted as saying "The team atmosphere was terrible. Furyk was devastated"