2018 Patriots: All-Purpose Roster Discussions Thread

pappymojo

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Can we still cut Allen and Save some $? I know with the Gronk injury it might not be a good idea....but from a pure talent stand point PP is a much bigger piece of the puzzle then Dwayne Allen?
Wasn't he the only TE to play last week?
 

Saints Rest

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I forgot about ther injury grievances. Yes those could add a decent amount. I think Britt was around 1M and Mitchell about 600K.

I don't have access to Miguel but where am i wrong? Does he believe the cap will be an obstacle for this trade?
Injuries? I mentioned signing players. I don't think it is going to take significant salary to sign anyone off the street for half a season.
What active roster bonus that they haven't already counted for?

I'm just not seeing anything of significant cap size that would get in the way. All teams like to have some wiggle room for emergencies but they don't need a ton.
Making the trade at the deadline with McCourty (expendable with Peterson) included would put them about 1.5 under at that point. More than enough for injury replacements but possibly a little tight depending on the grievances. nothing they couldn't work around though.
Here are the pertinent numbers, per Miguel.
  • Current Patriots current cap space is $5,262,629
  • Trading for PP this week would require $6,470,588 (waiting a week would reduce that to $5,823,529)
  • Over the last 5 years, the Pats' average expenses to finish season has required $2,993,460
  • This year, the potential lost cap space due to the 46-man active roster bonuses will total $2,523,438. That covers 13 players, ranging from up to almost $47,000 for Brandon King to over $600k for Donte Hightower.
  • A rookie added to the roster at rookie minimum will add a pro-rated amount of $480,000. It's hard to say exactly how much this would be as it reduces every week, but there could be multiple players needed.
  • Malcolm Mitchell hit would be any grievance amount over and above $252k; for Kenny Britt, they could get hit with $630k.
  • Duke Dawson's return would be small peanuts: about $7k per game.
The key takeaway is that every week the cap space dwindles due to the active roster bonuses, even if no roster transactions occur. And by rule, they can't add a player whose remaining pro-rated salary exceeds that cap number. IOW, they have to make room under the cap BEFORE making the trade. And then if they suck up all the cap room in that trade, they would pretty much need to start making additional room before the next game is played due to roster bonuses.
 

Saints Rest

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One more thing, also per Miguel:
The easiest way for the Patriots to create cap space would be to waive/trade one of the following players and replace them on the 53-man roster with a player making a smaller salary.
  1. Malcom Brown
  2. Julian Edelman
  3. David Andrews
  4. Trey Flowers
  5. Trent Brown
  6. Phillip Dorsett
  7. Brandon King
  8. Eric Rowe
 

DrewDawg

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Kyed mentions potential trades would possibly involve Dorsett, Shelton, Brown, Rowe, Patterson, and Cannon.

Thinks Peterson would cost a #1 and potentially a player.
 

lexrageorge

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Do they really need to budget for those grievances this year? They are events that are sort of out of control of the team. There's also the fact that neither one seems all that winnable for the player, especially Mitchell's.
 

SMU_Sox

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I'd like them to look at Landon Collins (NYG SS). Great in the box, Chung depth (personally I think he is better), affordable (last year of non-first round rookie deal), and can cover well but isn't a guy you'd match up with a vertical burner.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I don't know--they've made big deadline trades before, they're one of the most active deadline teams. They've acquired Talib, traded out Collins and JG. Granted 2 of those were outgoing, but we know they'll talk.
This kind of illustrates what I was saying - Talib, like Moss, was acquired for a single fourth-round pick.

I have no doubt they will be exploring numerous trades at the deadline - I just don't think they would give up even a single first-rounder for Peterson, much less two as BSF suggested at one point.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This kind of illustrates what I was saying - Talib, like Moss, was acquired for a single fourth-round pick.

I have no doubt they will be exploring numerous trades at the deadline - I just don't think they would give up even a single first-rounder for Peterson, much less two as BSF suggested at one point.
They dealt a 1 for Cooks; not sure why it being in-season would matter. They are willing to deal for a starting corner in season (Talib). They are willing to deal a 1.

I doubt they can get cap to work, and tend to don’t they can agree on a price with Cards, but those are the things to discuss imo
 

BigSoxFan

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This kind of illustrates what I was saying - Talib, like Moss, was acquired for a single fourth-round pick.

I have no doubt they will be exploring numerous trades at the deadline - I just don't think they would give up even a single first-rounder for Peterson, much less two as BSF suggested at one point.
You don’t think Bill Belichick would trade a pick in the late 20s for Patrick Peterson? Seriously? I never said Belichick would be willing to trade two #1’s, merely that I would.
 

Super Nomario

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I'd like them to look at Landon Collins (NYG SS). Great in the box, Chung depth (personally I think he is better), affordable (last year of non-first round rookie deal), and can cover well but isn't a guy you'd match up with a vertical burner.
I don't know what Collins would cost, but a move for a guy like that would make a ton of sense to me. They have no depth behind Chung, Chung is 31, and it could potentially solve the coverage LB issue if they play a SS as a nickel LB. With JMac (nominally the 4th S to start the season) establishing himself as the CB opposite Gilmore, S is the shallowest position on the team along with RB.
 

Jimbodandy

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Do they really need to budget for those grievances this year? They are events that are sort of out of control of the team. There's also the fact that neither one seems all that winnable for the player, especially Mitchell's.
I find that hard to believe as well. There must be some way to manipulate the calendar such that they can pay against next year's cap, even if the player has a case.

And of course, they have other guys that they could restructure and maybe even cut.
 

Mystic Merlin

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That’s a lot of cap to allocate to DB, unless one assumes they’ll cut DMC next offseason (possible).

As long as they can keep Flowers, our only premium DL, fine by me.
 

Jimbodandy

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Wait, what?

I’ve watched all the games. Like the one where Hill blew his knee up, the one where Burkhead got messed up, the one Gronk missed with two injuries...etc. They need a healthy body at RB, even if that means a street FA, White can’t keep up this amount of usage and they don’t have the receiving corps to basically abandon the running game. I’m not suggesting they go out and trade a first for someone they can barely squeeze in under the cap, but they’ve shown they can find cheap RB help pretty easily. Spending multiple firsts (as suggested up thread) for PP is foolish. Their defensive backfield is perfectly cromulent.

Any big move should be a coverage LB. I don’t see how that’s argued as not the biggest hole right now. If they can pick up a cheap RB, they absolutely should.
They're an elite scoring team and a terrible scoring defense. They lost last year's super bowl with a GOAT QB throwing for over 500 yards. They're currently a personal ad for "take the over", and not in that awesome 2007 way.

Street free agent bodies are everywhere and can be picked up when needed. If they need any "help", it's on defense.
 

Saints Rest

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I find that hard to believe as well. There must be some way to manipulate the calendar such that they can pay against next year's cap, even if the player has a case.

And of course, they have other guys that they could restructure and maybe even cut.
I'm just telling you what Miguel says. And I think it is pretty well established that no one knows more about the NFL cap rules than he.

As to the restructure, there are a bunch of folks they could do that for, but it all leads to pushing the can down the road as out years cap hits go up.

As for cutting a player, there are really only the 8 players I listed above where they could do so and see a reduction in cap hit.
 

Jimbodandy

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I'm just telling you what Miguel says. And I think it is pretty well established that no one knows more about the NFL cap rules than he.

As to the restructure, there are a bunch of folks they could do that for, but it all leads to pushing the can down the road as out years cap hits go up.

As for cutting a player, there are really only the 8 players I listed above where they could do so and see a reduction in cap hit.
Not sure that Bill wants to kick the can, but he has the option.

The grievance thing just seems off. Probably just an underinformed opinion on my part. I wonder if the schedule for adjudication (apologies if wrong term) is set in stone or could be negotiated/continued. Kinda what I was thinking.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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They're an elite scoring team and a terrible scoring defense. They lost last year's super bowl with a GOAT QB throwing for over 500 yards. They're currently a personal ad for "take the over", and not in that awesome 2007 way.

Street free agent bodies are everywhere and can be picked up when needed. If they need any "help", it's on defense.
Yeah, I watched the Super Bowl. This is not the same offense. And it's certainly not getting any closer if Gronk or White go out. I think Gordon is going to end up to be a nice addition and valuable, but I'm not ready to say he's going to be exactly Randy Moss (as far as drawing coverage and how it helps the scheme).

This is far from an elite offense - at the moment. They're 12th in passing and 9th in rushing; they're middle of the pack in turnovers (yes, I know a few of the interceptions were tips, but that doesn't excuse or negate them); they're top 5 in total scoring, but they've had special teams TDs this week; which if you take out would drop them to 6th. That's not elite.

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded. I'm not suggesting they go out and trade for Gurley or something. A viable body is needed though, because they don't have the weapons to overcome having no running game if White got hurt and Burkhead/Michel don't return. They most certainly need 'help' and I've stated even if it's a street guy, sure; but moving down a round in the end of the draft to get a guy more proven isn't something preventing them from also adding on defense. As others have, I've been saying basically since the opening kick of the season that they need a LB who can cover; that would help quite a bit for the backfield and the line looks fine for me, assuming Wise isn't hurt.
 

DrewDawg

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YeThis is far from an elite offense - at the moment. They're 12th in passing and 9th in rushing; they're middle of the pack in turnovers (yes, I know a few of the interceptions were tips, but that doesn't excuse or negate them); they're top 5 in total scoring, but they've had special teams TDs this week; which if you take out would drop them to 6th. That's not elite.
You absolutely need to look at yards and points when Edelman and Gordon started playing versus before.
 

TheShynessClinic

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This is far from an elite offense - at the moment. They're 12th in passing and 9th in rushing; they're middle of the pack in turnovers (yes, I know a few of the interceptions were tips, but that doesn't excuse or negate them); they're top 5 in total scoring, but they've had special teams TDs this week; which if you take out would drop them to 6th. That's not elite.
Are you just making these numbers up?

They're 3rd in offense for points scored. If you take out the special teams TD (which sure, but do that for the other teams too.). they're still 3rd in points scored by 3 points.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPoints
 

Jimbodandy

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Of course, but you absolutely need to also factor in what they'd look like if White goes out with a knee next week. Or Gronk. They have no depth at the moment, at WR or RB.
You sold me. Perhaps averaging 39 ppg is not enough (last 4 games). If we can get it up to like 45, then who gives a shit if we can't stop anyone.
 

E5 Yaz

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Mike Reiss ESPN Staff Writer
Bill Belichick will be doing a voiceover leading into Fox's broadcast of Game 1 of the World Series between the Los Angeles Dodgers and Boston Red Sox on Tuesday night. Asked about it today, he said, "It was awesome. I was honored they asked me to do it. It was great to be a part of that. I don't really have much of a baseball background, but the World Series is one of the great sporting events in this country, and has a great tradition to it, especially with these two franchises. I'm very humbled to have been asked to participate in that. Look forward to watching some of it."
 

SMU_Sox

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Mike Reiss ESPN Staff Writer
Bill Belichick will be doing a voiceover leading into Fox's broadcast of Game 1 of the World Series between the Los Angeles Dodgers and Boston Red Sox on Tuesday night. Asked about it today, he said, "It was awesome. I was honored they asked me to do it. It was great to be a part of that. I don't really have much of a baseball background, but the World Series is one of the great sporting events in this country, and has a great tradition to it, especially with these two franchises. I'm very humbled to have been asked to participate in that. Look forward to watching some of it."
Boston LA could be the Super Bowl as well. Would be fun if that’s how it played out (and of course Boston coming away with two championships out of it).
 

BaseballJones

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This is absolutely an elite offense right now. Last four weeks:

Points per game: 39.3 (that would be 1st in the NFL)
Yards per game: 442.0 (that would be 3rd in the NFL)
1st downs per game: 26.0 (that would be 1st in the NFL)
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Are you just making these numbers up?

They're 3rd in offense for points scored. If you take out the special teams TD (which sure, but do that for the other teams too.). they're still 3rd in points scored by 3 points.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPoints
They had two special teams TDs this week - the punt block and the kick return. I didn’t look at the other teams in depth because I’m on mobile and will do so later, but quick glance I didn’t see any for LAC or NO, so apologies, I typoed 5th instead of 3rd. So they’d drop to 5th.

I don’t see them or that as an ‘elite’ offense; they’re at the top shelf, probably going to improve if Gordon continues to acclimate/doesn’t get kicked out of the league; but one injury could easily mess that up, including White. I’m not sure he’s built to be a workhorse and I also don’t think they have enough talent elsewhere for the defense to essentially ignore the running game.

It’s not one of the other, they can do both. Once again, I’m saying pick someone up at RB for cheap and spend anything actually valuable on a LBer. I’m not really looking to get into a debate on the ‘eliteness’ of their offense. I’m not sure how one argues they aren’t thin as shit at RB and that’s the real discussion.
 

BaseballJones

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Picking up a usable RB is super duper easy though. Gillislee is available for next to nothing, and he's perfectly adequate.
 

lexrageorge

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Picking up a usable RB is super duper easy though. Gillislee is available for next to nothing, and he's perfectly adequate.
Not sure the bolded is correct; it's at least debatable. He's been available for next to nothing for a couple of weeks, and noone has picked him up. Not even the Pats, who got a good look at him during the preseason.

RB's in particular tend to fall off a cliff production-wise.
 

BaseballJones

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The guy is about to turn 28 years of age. Very low mileage (just 274 career carries). Just two years ago he averaged 5.7 yards per carry.

Obviously he's not Barry Sanders. And obviously the Pats have preferred to move in other directions. But their situation has changed and I can't believe you guys think, with how fungible NE's running backs are, that Gillislee wouldn't be adequate here. Especially given the cost to acquire him (nothing).
 

bakahump

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Yeah tough crowd if you dont think this is an elite offense. Its been steadily gaining steam as people have gotten healthy/back.

Keep in mind they are a "top 5 Offense in any catagory you care to choose" with 2 games of no Michel, 1 game of no Gronk, 4 games of no edelman, 3 games of Gordon learning on the fly and 2 games of no Starting RT. Lets not even mention the other 2 Starting RBs that are out for (most of) the season.

Some of those guys might be back (Gronk,.. Cannon/Michel,......... Burkhead.....probably in that order.) some wont, Some of those guys should continue to improve (Gordon, Edelman) But considering the personnel issues this is still a REALLY REALLY good offense.

I guess technically saying "They are not elite" is kinda right....but to pretend that they have no chance to be top 3 and likely will be top 5 is pretty disingenuous.

Defense is obviously the priority. But I will disagree with others that say you can only improve the D by adding to the Weak point (LB). I think any improvement (DBs....Peterson for an extreme and unlikely example) would help the other units. I bet the DL would get more pressure with a Gilmore/Peterson Corner duo. I bet DMC and the Safeties would be alot more active in intermediate routes if they didnt have to worry about the CBs getting beaten. More pressure on the QBs might help the LBs in coverage etc etc.

Sure if we can find a good coverage LB then great. But if whats out there is a upgrade at CB then you have to look at that and scheme around that strength.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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He’d be fine, in my eyes. But AGAIN I’m not suggesting spending anything significant on an addition there. As SN noted, something like a sixth is even less valuable this year than most. Let alone a sixth for a RB and a seventh or a future pick.

If you guys want to debate if the offense is ‘elite’, knock yourselves out, I’m bowing out of that. I don’t look at this set like I did even last year and I’m not sure how that’s even arguable, but have fun.
 

bakahump

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Whats up with Deone Bucannon? He might solve alot of the coverage ills of this team but hit stat sheet is empty and he cant seem to get on the field. He might be very CHEAP.
 

lexrageorge

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The guy is about to turn 28 years of age. Very low mileage (just 274 career carries). Just two years ago he averaged 5.7 yards per carry.

Obviously he's not Barry Sanders. And obviously the Pats have preferred to move in other directions. But their situation has changed and I can't believe you guys think, with how fungible NE's running backs are, that Gillislee wouldn't be adequate here. Especially given the cost to acquire him (nothing).
Belichick got a good look at him for several weeks during training camp. If he's not interested in picking him up for nothing, and no other team is interested either, I believe that tells you all you need to know about how effective Gillislee can be. RBs can, and do, lose it at 28.
 

Van Everyman

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This is absolutely an elite offense right now. Last four weeks:

Points per game: 39.3 (that would be 1st in the NFL)
Yards per game: 442.0 (that would be 3rd in the NFL)
1st downs per game: 26.0 (that would be 1st in the NFL)
Points per game has to be a little lower with the two TDs coming from special teams, no?
 

lexrageorge

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The offense may not be the best in the league, but it is certainly good enough as it is right now. That's not to say that they shouldn't add any depth; they certainly should if the right player comes along for the right price. But it's not the team's priority. Sure, if both Gronk and Edelman get hurt, and Gordon gets suspended, they are screwed. But no team has the depth to survive that degree of attrition.

I don't believe anyone here would be ecstatic if the deadline passed and all the Pats picked up was a backup running back.

Separately as for grievances: as per below, teams get assessed 40% of the players salary when the grievance is filed. If the grievance is settled in the player's favor, and if the team does not have space to absorb the difference, the difference is deducted from the following season's cap space:

How are player grievances accounted for under the salary cap?

When a player salary grievance is filed against a club, 40 percent of the amount claimed will be counted in team salary until the grievance is resolved or until the end of that League Year. When the grievance is settled, the salary cap charge related to the grievance is amended to reflect the final settlement amount (if it is settled during the same League Year that the claim was filed). If the final settlement amount is more than the original 40 percent estimate, and if the additional charge incurred to match the final settlement amount causes a team to go over the salary cap, the excess will be deducted from the club’s team salary in the following League Year. If the total grievance amount paid by a club is less than the original 40 percent estimate, and if the club finishes the season at the salary cap or below the salary cap by less than the amount of the unawarded estimate, the difference will be added to the club’s team salary for the following League Year. If the grievance is not settled until the following season, and if the final settlement amount is greater than the 40 percent amount that was previously charged to the team, the additional amount is charged to the team when paid. If the final settlement amount is less than the 40 percent estimate that was previously charged to the team, a salary credit is applied against team salary in the amount of the difference immediately upon the settlement agreement being awarded.
Source: http://salarycapcrunch.com/cba-salary-cap-qa/part-iii-nfl-salary-cap-accounting-rules/
 

DrewDawg

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Points per game has to be a little lower with the two TDs coming from special teams, no?
Yes, but other teams score that way too, so it likely pretty much evens out. Not to mentione that the Patriots score something like 2.6 points/drive, so subtract 14 and add back in 5 for the drives the didn't get on Sunday.
 

SMU_Sox

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I’m on the mobile but if it helps Pats are 5th in points per drive. I’m not going to jump in over labels like elite but it looks like they have a top 10 quality offense.
 

BaseballJones

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Points per game has to be a little lower with the two TDs coming from special teams, no?
You have to factor that in for every team then.

But no, special teams are just another way to score points.

Ehh... as DrewDawg said better than I did.
 

BaseballJones

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Belichick got a good look at him for several weeks during training camp. If he's not interested in picking him up for nothing, and no other team is interested either, I believe that tells you all you need to know about how effective Gillislee can be. RBs can, and do, lose it at 28.
Teams make mistakes on players ALL THE TIME. Obviously I tend to trust BB's judgment but I'd sooner say that Gillislee just has never been that good of a player (despite one solid season) than that he's "toast".
 

Reggie's Racquet

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Chandler Jones? Cardinals will be sellers. We need a pass rush with this defense. Our pass rush is among the worst in the league. His contract may not allow it but...
 

Ed Hillel

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I’m on the mobile but if it helps Pats are 5th in points per drive. I’m not going to jump in over labels like elite but it looks like they have a top 10 quality offense.
I would basically cut out the first three weeks, which puts them in the top 2. It’s them and KC.
 

Van Everyman

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Chandler Jones? Cardinals will be sellers. We need a pass rush with this defense. Our pass rush is among the worst in the league. His contract may not allow it but...
I’m surprised more teams don’t do deals like this at the deadline. Jones has been terrific as a Cardinal but IIRC his contract is absolutely brutal.
 

Reggie's Racquet

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I’m surprised more teams don’t do deals like this at the deadline. Jones has been terrific as a Cardinal but IIRC his contract is absolutely brutal.
Yes. I thought his contract would not make it possible...but who knows. I think he would really help this defense. They desperately need more pressure on the QB.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yes. I thought his contract would not make it possible...but who knows. I think he would really help this defense. They desperately need more pressure on the QB.
More pressure on the QB would be awesome, but we already have guys struggling to set the edge and maintain contain. He's a part time player here making big time money. Zero chance.
 

lexrageorge

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I believe the Cardinals would take a rather significant cap charge if they traded Chandler Jones. They would be at least on the hook for the $9M of signing bonus remaining; not sure how the 2018 guaranteed salary ($12.5M) gets pro-rated in this case. Pats would be saddled with a $16.5M guarantee for 2019 which may be difficult to restructure. Don't need to go into too many details to realize that Jones is with the Cardinals through 2019.

Jamie Collins was mentioned upthread. Biggest issue there is how to squeeze his 2018 salary of $10.6M into the Pats current salary cap space. Seems tight.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I believe the Cardinals would take a rather significant cap charge if they traded Chandler Jones. They would be at least on the hook for the $9M of signing bonus remaining; not sure how the 2018 guaranteed salary ($12.5M) gets pro-rated in this case. Pats would be saddled with a $16.5M guarantee for 2019 which may be difficult to restructure. Don't need to go into too many details to realize that Jones is with the Cardinals through 2019.

Jamie Collins was mentioned upthread. Biggest issue there is how to squeeze his 2018 salary of $10.6M into the Pats current salary cap space. Seems tight.
No, Landon Collins was mentioned, the strong safety from the Giants. If someone mentioned Jaime, my apologies, I must have missed it, but that makes almost zero sense for multiple reasons.

As to PP, just go to sportrac here: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/patrick-peterson-7720/
 

lexrageorge

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Papelbon's Poutine

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Ah, thanks for the correction. I had Jamie Collins on my mind because it was mentioned on 98.5 today that he wants out of Cleveland.
Well, that was your first mistake ;)

Between his crazy contract and his history here, I’d be highly surprised if the chances of Jaime coming back were in the single digits. He’s not someone they just used in the wrong scheme, like a Chung, that they’d bring back. He was all kinds of problems that I can’t imagine BB would put up with. He’s definitely the type of player they need, I just don’t think he’s the guy, again for multiple reasons.
 

SMU_Sox

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Landon Collins said last year that he didn’t want to play for Belichick when it was rumored that BB might head to the Giants. That might not mean anything but we know the Patriots want to acquire players who are a fit. Now if Collins is just a rental that might be something that doesn’t matter nearly as much. It might not matter for multiple reasons anyway - just throwing it out there. If they do go after someone I hope it is either Collins (Landon) or Bucannon. I would rather they take their chance with a street RB. The offensive line and skilled position players are good run blockers. It’s easier to find a productive back off the street than it is a coverage LB or SS.