2018 MMA/UFC

Myt1

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Woman’s GOAT for sure, though I’ll be interested to see what Thug Rose can put together. She seems slightly more naturally talented to me, but could just be my bias at play.
Loved her style since her season on TUF. She was reckless and had no conscience, like Kobe going for 80. And I think she’s even better now.
 

Follow33

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Far from any road.
Which failed tests did they hide? Do you have a link to support this? Because he was openly talking about all of them on the podcast 3 days before the fight, so that would be weird.

The California State Athletic Commission (CSAC) held a licensing hearing for Jon Jones on Dec. 11. Before that hearing, the commissioners and executive officer Andy Foster did not know about Jones’ adverse drug-test findings from August and September, UFC executive Jeff Novitzky said Friday.

"Foster confirmed with MMA Fighting on Friday that CSAC had no knowledge of the adverse findings until last week. He declined to comment further."

So Jeff and Dana, how was CSAC more informed again ? No chance Cali can license him knowing that.

Also Nevada came out and said stop calling it "Atypical", there's no such thing. He pissed hot.

I believe that now means Jon Jones has failed 5 of his last 8 tests so he's not GOATing anything except the biggest bullshit story in MMA.

Edit because every time I read below I laugh.

“No, they didn’t,” Novitzky said when asked if CSAC knew Dec. 11. “Nevada knew at that time, but California didn’t. … I mean, hey, in hindsight, maybe [USADA should have told CSAC]. I’m definitely a proponent in as much transparency as possible. Unfortunately, how do you think of every scenario? I think in USADA’s mind, they had no obligation to let Nevada know about this at all. It wasn’t within their jurisdiction. I think out of an abundance of caution, they did it. Could they have given it to [CSAC] as well? I think potentially."
 
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Follow33

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That podcast was awful. It turns out Novitsky's (UFC employee remember) experts who backed up the "pulsing" theory are two former USADA employees and a lab USADA contracts.

You know the "Revolving Door" most famous of the regulators and banking industry ? Jeff Novitsky is this but MMA not Finance.
 
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djbayko

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The California State Athletic Commission (CSAC) held a licensing hearing for Jon Jones on Dec. 11. Before that hearing, the commissioners and executive officer Andy Foster did not know about Jones’ adverse drug-test findings from August and September, UFC executive Jeff Novitzky said Friday.

"Foster confirmed with MMA Fighting on Friday that CSAC had no knowledge of the adverse findings until last week. He declined to comment further."

So Jeff and Dana, how was CSAC more informed again ? No chance Cali can license him knowing that.

Also Nevada came out and said stop calling it "Atypical", there's no such thing. He pissed hot.

I believe that now means Jon Jones has failed 5 of his last 8 tests so he's not GOATing anything except the biggest bullshit story in MMA.

Edit because every time I read below I laugh.

“No, they didn’t,” Novitzky said when asked if CSAC knew Dec. 11. “Nevada knew at that time, but California didn’t. … I mean, hey, in hindsight, maybe [USADA should have told CSAC]. I’m definitely a proponent in as much transparency as possible. Unfortunately, how do you think of every scenario? I think in USADA’s mind, they had no obligation to let Nevada know about this at all. It wasn’t within their jurisdiction. I think out of an abundance of caution, they did it. Could they have given it to [CSAC] as well? I think potentially."
You said the UFC his tests, and this article shows they did no such thing. USADA sprung the results on everyone - UFC included - in early December. The reason they gave is very plausible since they’re dealing with extremely green territory here and wanted to avoid making a false assessment. They were working with other laboratories to get more data.

I’m not really even sure what you think their motive was. It’s not like they tried to hide them until after the fight, so what benefit are they getting in this conspiracy? If you listen to the interview, the quote is being taken out of context. It’s actuallly a response to a question about whether the fight could have proceeded in Las Vegas if USADA had shared the data earlier, and therefore given everyone time to hold a public hearing.
 

Follow33

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They said CSAC was more informed. They lied. Never told CSAC about 2 of Jons 3 failed tests. One of 20 lies in this story.

Again Jon Jones failed 5 of his last 8 tests. They never even found a tainted supplement that had Turinabol in it from 15 months ago, the whole things stinks.

Frank Mir couple picograms gtfo 2 year suspension

Tom Lawlor couple picograms gtfo 2 year suspension

Jon Jones hey no problem, let's have half a dozen grown men bend over backwards on tv talking about "intent" and " lack of performance benefits". If I had to breakdown every lie in this story I wouldn't leave the keys today my man. Victor Conte called it after Jon's testosterone came back from ufc 182 !

Aside from breaking pregnant woman's arms in his free time Jon has a very sketchy ped past. He once hid from a drug test under a ring for over 12 hours at Jackson Wink.

Oh, and he's most likely microdosing Mibelorone aka Cheque Drops.
 
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Follow33

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I would also like to add that right after the date of Jon august failure (which was never disclosed) the UFC changed their policy that drug failures are now only announced when the cases are resolved.

Seems legit.
 

Follow33

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You said the UFC his tests, and this article shows they did no such thing. USADA sprung the results on everyone - UFC included - in early December.
"The California State Athletic Commission (CSAC) held a licensing hearing for Jon Jones on Dec. 11. Before that hearing, the commissioners and executive officer Andy Foster did not know about Jones’ adverse drug-test findings from August and September"

I know I'm celebrating a tad early but I'm missing something here DJ. I'm seeing they didn't know and that info was withheld.

Edit: Guys sorry for multipost , I didn't really know there was an active mma thread on here and I got excited :/
 

djbayko

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Edit: I originally started writing a reply in regards to when evidence was shared with CSAC, and then I realized we were talking past each other.

But it doesn’t matter. To me what matters is that if you look at the evidence, it’s basically impossible for there to have been a new ingestion of oral Turinabol since Jon Jones last served time. The large number of tests over the past year actuall help Jon’s case by demonstrating this. So you don’t have to like the pulsing excuse, and admittedly, no one knows quite why the pulsing is occurring (although they have theories), but one must conclude that it’s happening by deduction.

California agreed and we’ll find out how Nevada feels about it next year.
 
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Follow33

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I must be the one missing something. The results were predented in that hearing, right? NOPE So they were not in fact withheld. WRONG That’s the point of a hearing - to present evidence. USADA shared the results with UFC on the 9th, if I remember correctly, maybe a few days earlier. So where is the deception and what purpose did it serve? I think you’re reading sonething into this story that isn’t really there, and it’s not your fault - it’s that author’s.
I'm not sure what you are reading.

"No, they didn’t,” Novitzky said when asked if CSAC knew Dec. 11.

Again, the August and September failures WERE NOT SHARED with CSAC by USADA.

I'm trying to figure out why you can't put this together. Do you think USADA sanctions UFC ? They don't. They did tell UFC about the two failed tests BUT NOT THE LICENSING BODIES. So USADA didn't tell CSAC as Novitsky said in my earlier post " HEY MAYBE THEY SHOULD HAVE YUCK YUCK !" So UFC went to CSAC and got Jon licensed thinking he had one test in December that popped after convincing them it was related to metabolites blah blah blah. He actually had 3 failed tests, 2 of which UFC did not disclose to CSAC.

Also, Jeff Novitsky is the Vice President of Athlete Health and Performance for the UFC, do people realize this ? That's his job. He is a high level UFC employee. He does not work for or get paid by USADA. He gets a fat paycheck directly from the UFC. Why would he say anything negative about this situation, he literally gets paid NOT to. He gets paid to be there and be the mouthpiece for this bullshit. Again, It's the Revolving Door. He gets paid to say these things and find three "experts" who will say they agree who all worked for or get paid by USADA.
 

Follow33

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Come one who's next ? I like you spunky casuals.

Anyone else watch kickboxing phenom Tenshin Nasukawa vs Floyd Mayweather this morning ? Not how I thought that would go wow.
 
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djbayko

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Failed 5 of his last 8 my friend to the south.
It depends on how you define “failed”. The UFC testing policy has a no double jeopardy clause. You can be found to have substance in your system and not have it held against you, as long as it’s determined that there was no new ingestion and that there was no performance benefit from the trace amounts found. That makes complete sense and is what happened here. If you are suggesting that Jon Jones took oral Turinabol since his last suspension then you have to explain why no short- or medium-term metabolites have shown up in his system. They have independent labs besides USADA verifying their conclusions.

And I get the Jeff works for UFC. I totally do. But just listen to the evidence - the evidence that caused CSAC to agree with USADA’s conclusions. And Jeff made his name busting high profile PED users. I personally doubt he’d turn into a complete shill and put his reputation at risk. Some people do have integrity. That’s just my feeing anyways.
 
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Follow33

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Ahh, I'm sorry I should have read a bit of the early thread, this is like casual casual fans. This cover up is one of the biggest stories in MMA right now along with the credibility of the UFC. When you said you hadn't heard about any of this I googled "Andy Foster CSAC" nothing about anything else Jon PED's etc and the first story that comes up is the one I linked you so it's not me. Everything you are asking has been explained many, many times since last week. If you read Bloody Elbow, MMA FIghting, R/MMA SHerdog MMA Underground it's all there. Anyway glad to find out people here enjoy MMA ! Carry on.
 

luckiestman

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Ahh, I'm sorry I should have read a bit of the early thread, this is like casual casual fans. This cover up is one of the biggest stories in MMA right now along with the credibility of the UFC. When you said you hadn't heard about any of this I googled "Andy Foster CSAC" nothing about anything else Jon PED's etc and the first story that comes up is the one I linked you so it's not me. Everything you are asking has been explained many, many times since last week. If you read Bloody Elbow, MMA FIghting, R/MMA SHerdog MMA Underground it's all there. Anyway glad to find out people here enjoy MMA ! Carry on.

I’m 01/01/01 on the underground so relax with the condescension
 

djbayko

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Ahh, I'm sorry I should have read a bit of the early thread, this is like casual casual fans. This cover up is one of the biggest stories in MMA right now along with the credibility of the UFC. When you said you hadn't heard about any of this I googled "Andy Foster CSAC" nothing about anything else Jon PED's etc and the first story that comes up is the one I linked you so it's not me. Everything you are asking has been explained many, many times since last week. If you read Bloody Elbow, MMA FIghting, R/MMA SHerdog MMA Underground it's all there. Anyway glad to find out people here enjoy MMA ! Carry on.
Wow, you convinced me.
 

MikeM

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In your heart of hearts, you think GSP is natty?
Earlier in his career, and especially at the start of his climb? Fuck no. Same goes for Nunes on that note. GSP never struck me as the type that was stupid enough to put his faith in Team Bro Science to keep him ahead of testing though.

As far as the GOAT discussion goes, I'd still give the overall strength of opposition and performance against them edge to Jones.

I also must be a super casual since at the end of the day I don't think that the steroid allegations alone matter nearly as much in the UFC circus as it might in other much more structured sports. At least in terms of what the real driving story interest there actually is there, and how it ultimately effects public perception on what they are tuning in to watch.
 

Phragle

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Tough to sprawl if your weight is going forward and opponent times it perfect. GSP made a career of hitting doubles like that.
Yeah it looked so much like GSP

She shouldn’t get any credit for the Rousey win. My only issue with having a woman be th GOAT is, it’s like the heavyweight division - it’s unclear there’s a critical mass of talent and experience there yet. Remember when people thought Rousey was so amazing, and then other women started participating in the sport?
Yeah I think this is right. I certainly think Nunes is different than Ronda and much more deserves to be in the goat conversation. I think it's fair to say Ronda's standup was pathetic, and you can be a champion if your one skill is good enough, but you can't be the goat without being well rounded.

Loved her style since her season on TUF. She was reckless and had no conscience, like Kobe going for 80. And I think she’s even better now.
Wishing I watched tuf isn't something I thought I'd wish

If you are willing to remove Jones from the conversation then the answer is DC.
And if you aren't, then the answer is Jones.

In your heart of hearts, you think GSP is natty?
I don't care TBH. As long as they pass my smell test and don't come in looking like Bane or trt Vitor. I though USADA was a good idea in the beginning but not anymore after they're ruining careers over psoriasis creams, out of competition IVs, and pentagrams of dick pills. I'm all for a clean sport, but I want them to catch the intentional cheaters, not the fighters that took dirty creatine.

Earlier in his career, and especially at the start of his climb? Fuck no. Same goes for Nunes on that note. GSP never struck me as the type that was stupid enough to put his faith in Team Bro Science to keep him ahead of testing though.

As far as the GOAT discussion goes, I'd still give the overall strength of opposition and performance against them edge to Jones.
You think Nunes was dirty pre-usada? I don't think that. She's only got bigger and more muscled since usada. I'm watching her old fights right now, and her body changes very slowly -- exactly as I'd expect it to.

I also must be a super casual since at the end of the day I don't think that the steroid allegations alone matter nearly as much in the UFC circus as it might in other much more structured sports. At least in terms of what the real driving story interest there actually is there, and how it ultimately effects public perception on what they are tuning in to watch.
Yeah they're kind of developing the rules as they go and I understand that. Relative to other sports, MMA is brand new. On the other hand though, I don't think you can have trt Vitors running around a kicking people's eyes out
 

Gunfighter 09

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And if you aren't, then the answer is Jones.
No question.

If you are basing your evaluation strictly on what you saw in the octagon, or just assume everyone cheats and dont care about how bad Jones is at avoiding getting caught, Bones is the GOAT. I think his resume is better than Silva or GSP simply because he doesn't have a Weidman or Serra blemish on his resume and I don't think he ever will.
 

Marciano490

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who is the GOAT cocky poster who out douches everyone in combat threads? Marciano or Follow?
That’s really not necessary. I respect the sport I bled for, had 4 surgeries for and saw 2 friends die doing. If people want to discuss it, I’m happy to hear all opinions, but after the Canelo-GGG fight people were arguing with 0 ability or willingness to discuss their scorecards or even cite to rules on how fights are scored. That wouldn’t fly talking about football or baseball here, why is it wrong to take the same tone people here would take if someone says Price sucks?

And I don’t think you necessarily have to have done a sport to discuss or be knowledgeable about it, but if you’re going to argue, at least defend your arguments with more than your feelings and with some baseline insight into the rules and realities of the game.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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No question.

If you are basing your evaluation strictly on what you saw in the octagon, or just assume everyone cheats and dont care about how bad Jones is at avoiding getting caught, Bones is the GOAT. I think his resume is better than Silva or GSP simply because he doesn't have a Weidman or Serra blemish on his resume and I don't think he ever will.
Yet.

I mean, come on, Anderson Silva was almost 40 when he fought Weidman.
 

luckiestman

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No question.

If you are basing your evaluation strictly on what you saw in the octagon, or just assume everyone cheats and dont care about how bad Jones is at avoiding getting caught, Bones is the GOAT. I think his resume is better than Silva or GSP simply because he doesn't have a Weidman or Serra blemish on his resume and I don't think he ever will.

I still think it’s GSP. Check the records. GSP fought and beat a lot of great to really good fighters in their prime. Jones has beaten DC and is 1-1 against Gus (I don’t care what the record says). The rest were mostly on the downside of their career or not elite. Some of it isn’t Bones fault it is that there are not that many good fighters for him to beat at 205. Think about how big a person has to be to cut to a lean 205 compared to 170.

I was never a huge GSP fan (He has a bit of a goofy personality), but I cannot deny his accomplishments.
 

Phragle

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I still think it’s GSP. Check the records. GSP fought and beat a lot of great to really good fighters in their prime. Jones has beaten DC and is 1-1 against Gus (I don’t care what the record says). The rest were mostly on the downside of their career or not elite. Some of it isn’t Bones fault it is that there are not that many good fighters for him to beat at 205. Think about how big a person has to be to cut to a lean 205 compared to 170.

I was never a huge GSP fan (He has a bit of a goofy personality), but I cannot deny his accomplishments.
Good. Do you feel the same about when Hendricks whipped GSPs ass?
 

Zomp

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That’s really not necessary. I respect the sport I bled for, had 4 surgeries for and saw 2 friends die doing. If people want to discuss it, I’m happy to hear all opinions, but after the Canelo-GGG fight people were arguing with 0 ability or willingness to discuss their scorecards or even cite to rules on how fights are scored. That wouldn’t fly talking about football or baseball here, why is it wrong to take the same tone people here would take if someone says Price sucks?

And I don’t think you necessarily have to have done a sport to discuss or be knowledgeable about it, but if you’re going to argue, at least defend your arguments with more than your feelings and with some baseline insight into the rules and realities of the game.

It was a joke. I respect your opinions and always look forward to your analysis.
 

Marciano490

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It was a joke. I respect your opinions and always look forward to your analysis.
Oh sorry man. Long night.

Relatedly, though, how are UFC fights scored? Are there set criteria? How do like ten clean punches in a round compare to 2 takedowns or 3 minutes of ground control or a near submission?
 

luckiestman

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Oh sorry man. Long night.

Relatedly, though, how are UFC fights scored? Are there set criteria? How do like ten clean punches in a round compare to 2 takedowns or 3 minutes of ground control or a near submission?

They have criteria but not like you stated. It is much more vague “striking” “grappling” “octagon control”

Many of those judges have no idea what they are watching when they are watching grappling.
 

Marciano490

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They have criteria but not like you stated. It is much more vague “striking” “grappling” “octagon control”

Many of those judges have no idea what they are watching when they are watching grappling.
I sure don’t and have been watching since the Tank Abbot, Shamrock and Gracie days.
 

Myt1

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Yeah it looked so much like GSP


Yeah I think this is right. I certainly think Nunes is different than Ronda and much more deserves to be in the goat conversation. I think it's fair to say Ronda's standup was pathetic, and you can be a champion if your one skill is good enough, but you can't be the goat without being well rounded.


Wishing I watched tuf isn't something I thought I'd wish
The personality/conflicts stuff is kinda dumb, but I watched a couple of chunks of a couple of seasons. Rose had an unmistakable “it” factor and was trying to hit insane jumping rolling armbars ‘n shit. I got a huge kick out of it.
 

Eagle3

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And he was fucking around.

I think Silva’s the GOAT from a pure talent and ability perspective.
Maybe, but Silva also never beat any great fighters in their prime. What's his "signature" win? Dan Henserson? Belfort? Sonnen? I'm not saying he wasnt great, but its hard to tell HOW great since he never fought any other GOAT contenders. And "fucking around" is part of the equation. His lack of respect cost him in the end.
 

The Flying Dutchman

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Maybe, but Silva also never beat any great fighters in their prime. What's his "signature" win? Dan Henserson? Belfort? Sonnen? I'm not saying he wasnt great, but its hard to tell HOW great since he never fought any other GOAT contenders. And "fucking around" is part of the equation. His lack of respect cost him in the end.
I would pick rich franklin (x2) and forest griffin (at LHW) As his signature wins.

He was head and shoulders over anyone at the time.


Demetrius Johnson getting no love for GOAT here.
 

EvilEmpire

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DJ is a tough one for me. He's awesome. I enjoy watching the flyweights, especially some of the younger kids like Brandon Moreno, but the division has been around in the UFC since 2012 and I have never really had a good sense of how deep the talent pool is there.

Before the Cejudo loss, I was really hoping to see DJ square off with Dillashaw at 125. Shame that that never happened.