With all of these resources, why would they even think about signing Machado after 2018? It just seems counterproductive to this successful long game strategy Cashman has employed so well for the past 18 months, and more.
2017 Yankees Offseason Discussion
- Thread starter Murderer's Crow
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Counterproductive how? I think it depends on how Andujar does this year, but they have so little on the books long-term that they can add big deals if they think they make sense. The Astros are still the team to beat in the AL, and they've got a ton of resources also and I expect them to be making big additions also (Yelich? Darvish?).
Anyway, they will have a year to evaluate their own young talent like Andujar and Frazier (assuming they don't get traded for a pitcher) and then they can decide if Harper and/or (yes, I said and/or, not or) Machado make sense. As a really rough guess, if NY paid those two $75M combined, they'd still be right around the luxury tax number of $206M next year, and assuming they reset it this year as intended, they have no issue going over that if needed. I highly highly doubt that will happen, but it is still possible, I think.
What happens over the next few years as Didi and the Baby Bombers begin to get paid what they are worth? I can live with one huge out of control contract but a second one starts to strangle the roster and cap ceilings. I thought the whole point of the youth movement was to play the kids. You've been hyping Andujar for six months. Stick with the kid. Or move Torres to third and get an elite fielding second baseman.
I don't think we're really contradicting each other, but Bird and Severino are cost-controlled through 2021 and Judge and Sanchez through 2022, so that's a really big window. Didi is the only crucial piece who will hit FA sooner, after 2019.
I just have a real problem with Machado. He virtually gave up on his teammates last season, trotted out many ground balls, a la Cano. It worries me that his attitude might rub off on an emotional younger player like Sanchez.
I have not seen much of Stanton but we all have seen Machado often in recent years. Do the Yankees need All-Stars at every position to surpass Houston and Cleveland? Do they suddenly have to win it all in 2018? Boy, that happened fast!
No, but they need to keep improving the team whenever possible. Again, we are not really disagreeing, I don't think they should get Machado this season either, and they can take stock of the pros and cons next winter, including how Andujar has developed this year.
Also, just for the record, Machado is only five months older than Sanchez. That is the real attraction of Harper and Machado, they came up so young that they will hit free agency when they're still 26.
Also, just for the record, Machado is only five months older than Sanchez. That is the real attraction of Harper and Machado, they came up so young that they will hit free agency when they're still 26.
I'm not disagreeing, just moving past the momentous week just ended and looking ahead to how this team will mesh in 2018. It's very right-handed again, both at the plate and on the mound. That goes against the history of this franchise when it is winning titles.
Right, but the history of this franchise is mostly before shifts made it a lot harder to be a pull-happy lefty hitter. All of these guys hit righties just fine, just like the righty-heavy pitching staff all does just fine against LHBs.
Then again if you want to put a big lefty hitter in the middle of the lineup, there's a guy named Bryce who will be a FA next winter.
Then again if you want to put a big lefty hitter in the middle of the lineup, there's a guy named Bryce who will be a FA next winter.
Didn't Greinke have a nervous condition earlier in his career? He's a grizzled veteran now.
I can find something wrong with just about all of these potential Yankees. Gerrit Cole snubbed the Yanks when they drafted him after his freshman year at UCLA. Machado jogs to first.
Even CC. He can't field his position!
Now Bryce Harper is flawless. His old man loved Mantle. Bryce plays hard. He hits lefty. Yes, sign him for $300M over 10 years. Is that enough?Right, but the history of this franchise is mostly before shifts made it a lot harder to be a pull-happy lefty hitter. All of these guys hit righties just fine, just like the righty-heavy pitching staff all does just fine against LHBs.
Then again if you want to put a big lefty hitter in the middle of the lineup, there's a guy named Bryce who will be a FA next winter.
This is why I could never be a GM.
I know he's still a bonafide ace, but would the Yankees want to dedicate, essentially, some 45M to Grienke (his 34M + 10-11M they'd have to cover of Ellsbury)?
Their rotation isn't great, but it's not so bad that I think they'd be that desperate. They'll surely want some in-season flexibility and won't want to be up that close against the luxury tax, either.
Well, here is the thing. He is old. And expensive. But he was better (and in some cases much better) than every single person that the Yankees are discussing acquiring. And he may carry a very minimal prospect price.
If Cash can make the money work for this year, I am open to it.
Just considering whether it's realistic or not. I don't think Cashman would be willing to dedicate so much money to someone who's simply 'better than the other guys out there.'
You said precisely why I don't think Cashman will go for it: he's old and expensive. The exact combination he seems to be avoiding.
It doesn't make any sense because both teams are trying to save money. What might make sense is if ARI misses out on Martinez, maybe then they could take 3/18 or 3/21 of Ellsbury's deal, something like that. Ellsbury would need to approve any deal, but he does evidently have a house in Arizona, so maybe.
Another tidbit we heard a few times during all the YES interviews of Yankee personnel this week was that they are leaning towards maybe splitting up Judge/Stanton with Bird at 2/3/4 (Naehring and Boone both mentioned this, I believe).
Gardner
Judge
Bird
Stanton
Didi
Sanchez
Hicks
Andujar
Torres
NY had some lineups last decade with a young Cano batting 9th that were pretty crazy, but that one is right up there potentially.
Gardner
Judge
Bird
Stanton
Didi
Sanchez
Hicks
Andujar
Torres
NY had some lineups last decade with a young Cano batting 9th that were pretty crazy, but that one is right up there potentially.
This is the lineup that I hope we see the most of in 2018. Though I would stack the power righty bats against lefty starters.
More rumors that the Cole conversation is ongoing. Frazier as the centerpiece w/ a requirement for a near-ready pitcher. If Montgomery gets it done, I sign off on that.
Would they rather give up Montgomery or Adams? I vote Adams, just because Montgomery has already proven himself to some degree and is a lefty. But I admittedly don't know much about Adams.
I'm also surprised that Cashman hasn't tried to unload Betances. I'd love to hang onto Adams to see what he could do in the bullpen and I'm not looking forward to the continued Betances experiment.
If Cashman had faith in Montgomery to be the pitcher he was last year, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation. For some reason, they're making it clear that they don't think he belongs in the rotation long-term. So, it's gotta be him who gets traded.
If Cashman had faith in Montgomery to be the pitcher he was last year, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation. For some reason, they're making it clear that they don't think he belongs in the rotation long-term. So, it's gotta be him who gets traded.
My guess on Betances is that he is more valuable at the trade deadline than the offseason.
So let him re-find his stuff and either trade him or try to win it all.
So let him re-find his stuff and either trade him or try to win it all.
I think it depends if they get CC back also. If they do, then Montgomery should go because he will be the sixth man and it seems strange to send him back to AAA for any reason after the year he had last year. Even if Adams doesn't work out, they have Sheffield and Abreu also, and others farther away, and a full rotation ahead of him:
Severino
Tanaka
new acquisition
Gray
CC
Cole gives up a lot of home runs and is only under contract for two more years, he was awesome in 2015 (4th in the Cy Young at 24) but has been much more pedestrian the last two seasons. In Cash We Trust, but not a big fan of this potential move.
I actually think that Cashman is waiting out the FA reliever market here, which makes sense. He may be more valuable mid-season but he is pretty low in the pecking order (5th behind Green/Kahnle/Robertson/Chapman) and a rusty Betances is like a lawn sprinkler launching deadly missiles, so he may be less valuable too.
I think Warren or Betances will go before spring training, then huge arm guys like Heller and German and Acevedo (all clocked at 100+) will have another spot to aim for.
I agree on Cole but of the options being discussed, none have been top of the rotation sure-things. All come with a degree of risk and uncertain ceilings. We will be very unlikely to have a Chris Sale or 2nd Severino on this team in 2018 unless he's already here or coming up.
Edit: Unless Darvish's price drops.
Two of the Yankees top 5 prospects* for Gerrit Cole? Both major league ready?
I'm not sure I make that deal.
*According to BA, Adams is currently ranked #4, Frazier was ranked #2 last year.
I'm not sure I make that deal.
*According to BA, Adams is currently ranked #4, Frazier was ranked #2 last year.
Jon HeymanVerified account @JonHeyman 2m2 minutes ago
Yankees and pirates are continuing to talk about Gerrit Cole. Clint Frazier would likely be part of package, if it happens.
Yankees and pirates are continuing to talk about Gerrit Cole. Clint Frazier would likely be part of package, if it happens.
Those prospects in exchange for a pitcher who has barely been league average the last 2 seasons would be a massive overpay.
I agree. I think Frazier is an easy player for the team to give up in return for a pitcher but adding a top pitching prospect to that package seems like a waste of resources. I wouldn't be too happy to see Adams and Frazier go.
Sarcastic? I'm honestly not sure.
I'm not a big Cole fan, but there is something to be said for him only having two years of control left, not only is NY less committed if he has a bad arm injury, but with FA looming for both he and Gray in two years, one would think we will get their A game until then.
I think Gerrit Cole is a talented pitcher whose potential is high and he's shown it. I think having Cole in the rotation is something the Yankees should explore given he's still arbitration eligible but there's some red flags. His 2015 season was great, but every other year he's had an ERA+ between 101 and 111. Last year he gave up an alarming 31 home runs when in his 4 previous year he gave up a combined 36. While I would trade for him if I were the Yankees, I would not want to give up both Chance Adams and Clint Frazier for him.
I don't think I'd give up Frazier even if it were a 1-to-1 swap. For Frazier I either want a better pitcher or someone who's got more than 2 years of control. The only thing I can think is that Cashman believes Stanton may opt out in 3 years and wants to put all his assets in play to make sure he wins a title in that time.
Either that, or maybe Frazier isn't as good as he's been advertised, or has an attitude problem that won't fit well with the team, and Cashman wants to move him this off season.
Because Cole has been a solid #2 starter, with flashes of brilliance, but he's only had one great season, and only has two seasons of control-- not the kind of arm you give up your best major league ready prospect (and more) for.
Either that, or maybe Frazier isn't as good as he's been advertised, or has an attitude problem that won't fit well with the team, and Cashman wants to move him this off season.
Because Cole has been a solid #2 starter, with flashes of brilliance, but he's only had one great season, and only has two seasons of control-- not the kind of arm you give up your best major league ready prospect (and more) for.
I think that's all totally fair but you could also argue that Frazier and Adams are both blocked and potentially flawed. I think Frazier will be a good MLB hitter but his D needs work, and Adams has been absolutely dominant in the minors the last two years but some evaluators think he will end up as a reliever long-term.
Seems like there is a lot of smoke around Cole to the Yankees the past 24 hours.
I have concerns about Frazier having a low OBP longterm, I would move him but I wouldn't move him just to move him.
I have concerns about Frazier having a low OBP longterm, I would move him but I wouldn't move him just to move him.
It's like a constant trading deadline, I think I have never been more into Twitter.
If Frazier is moved, McKinney will move up one into his spot on the OF depth chart, interesting to compare them:
McKinney is two weeks older, both 23, both #1 draft picks in 2013 (Frazier 5th, McKinney 24th), and both played in Scranton for a big chunk of last season. Frazier had a .816 OPS there in 320 PAs, McKinney had a .877 OPS there in 224 PAs. Also McKinney played some 1B competently in the Arizona league last month in addition to LF/RF, Frazier is just LF/RF.
So along with Judge, Stanton, Hicks, and Gardner ahead of him, McKinney coming up fast on the outside and Florial in a year or two, you can see why Frazier's best value to NY is probably a trade chip, and we trust Cashman to pick the right target, or hold out until the right one becomes available.
If Frazier is moved, McKinney will move up one into his spot on the OF depth chart, interesting to compare them:
McKinney is two weeks older, both 23, both #1 draft picks in 2013 (Frazier 5th, McKinney 24th), and both played in Scranton for a big chunk of last season. Frazier had a .816 OPS there in 320 PAs, McKinney had a .877 OPS there in 224 PAs. Also McKinney played some 1B competently in the Arizona league last month in addition to LF/RF, Frazier is just LF/RF.
So along with Judge, Stanton, Hicks, and Gardner ahead of him, McKinney coming up fast on the outside and Florial in a year or two, you can see why Frazier's best value to NY is probably a trade chip, and we trust Cashman to pick the right target, or hold out until the right one becomes available.
Scouts are not all so convinced that Chance Adams will be a successful big league starter, but with him maybe on the move, I looked at his numbers again and wow has he been dominant in the minors.
He was a 2015 5th round pick, a college reliever that NY converted to a starter in 2016, and has rocketed through the minors, 313 IP in the 2 1/2 seasons since being drafted, 5 levels, 31-7 combined with a 2.33 ERA and a ridiculous 204 hits allowed in those 313 innings, WHIP of .990 and a K/9 of 9.3.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=adams-008cha
He was a 2015 5th round pick, a college reliever that NY converted to a starter in 2016, and has rocketed through the minors, 313 IP in the 2 1/2 seasons since being drafted, 5 levels, 31-7 combined with a 2.33 ERA and a ridiculous 204 hits allowed in those 313 innings, WHIP of .990 and a K/9 of 9.3.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=adams-008cha
I would think some but not A-Rod, Jeter type. This was a win win deal if there ever was. He wasn't gonna get that kinda dough elsewhere and with the lineup behind him he has a shot at another ring in probably the last year of his career.
