2017 Patriots Defense

[lambeau]

I'm looking forward to seeing the defense, presumably against the Chiefs and Steelers, as it continues to evolve.Don't think anybody expected Van Noy to be crucial, but having him back wearing the green dot seems critical to overall functioning.
Nobody expected it--but Harrison may have a lot left and greatly improve the defense by setting the edge. He could continue to get half the snaps. And who thought Marquis Flowers with his 4.4 speed could be key covering Leveon Bell and Kareem Hunt while Chung takes Jesse James and Travis Kelce?

 

[tims4wins]

Pats are now up to #17 in weighted defense in DVOA. Last year overall they finished 16th with the #1 scoring D. So fairly similar at this point.

 

[BaseballJones]

No idea where to put this - figured this was as good a place as any.

Is defense back in the NFL? This year the average team scored 21.7 points and gained 334.1 yards per game. Those numbers are lower than they were in 1983, when teams scored 21.8 points and gained 334.4 yards per game. Barely above the 1985 numbers with those great defenses (21.7 points, 329.4 yards). On the whole, we've seen more points and yards gained per game over the last 8 seasons than previously, but this year points are down 1.1 point per game per team, and 16.3 yards per game per team from a year ago.

 

[RetractableRoof]

No idea where to put this - figured this was as good a place as any.

Is defense back in the NFL? This year the average team scored 21.7 points and gained 334.1 yards per game. Those numbers are lower than they were in 1983, when teams scored 21.8 points and gained 334.4 yards per game. Barely above the 1985 numbers with those great defenses (21.7 points, 329.4 yards). On the whole, we've seen more points and yards gained per game over the last 8 seasons than previously, but this year points are down 1.1 point per game per team, and 16.3 yards per game per team from a year ago.

Off the cuff answer, there are a larger number of non-star or less established NFL QBs running their teams. There were teams that gave starts to younger QBs (I think more than usual). You had some veteran above average QB's on the shelf for all or parts of the season (Luck, Eli, Wentz). You had a couple of teams rely a bit more on high end RBs. I acknowledging there is a lot of overlap in those statements.

I think those things are more an indicator of the temporary decline in scoring than that defenses are better.

I think it would be a fun thing to give more than the "eye test" to and explore. Great question.

 

[slamminsammya]

So who stepped up to get this defense playing so much better in the second half of the season? Gilmore? McCourty? Trey Flowers has 12 hurries in two playoff games. How about the linebackers? How important was the return of Kyle van Noy?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

So who stepped up to get this defense playing so much better in the second half of the season? Gilmore? McCourty? Trey Flowers has 12 hurries in two playoff games. How about the linebackers? How important was the return of Kyle van Noy?

I think we see this most years with this team or at least recently. I'm honestly almost 100% convinced to the notion that they use the first quarter of the season as their "preseason" and the rest to tune up for the playoffs, adjusting schemes for injury and performance.

As to specific players, KVN returning seems huge; Gilmore has stepped up in exactly that fashion of early on he was having trouble, but now seems to "get it"; but i think end of day, it's the coaching and scheming - they really seem to be able to adjust and improve how the pieces fit together better than anyone over the course of a season.

 

[tims4wins]

From Barnwell's SB preview:

"How can a defense simultaneously be great and abysmal? Context. Raw numbers don't account for the fact that the Patriots' offense makes its defense's life as easy as possible. The average Patriots drive on offense included a league-high 6.2 plays, keeping their defense fresh and off the field for long stretches of time. The New England defense faced just 172 possessions this season, the fifth fewest in football and 12 below the league average. Contrast that to the Jaguars, who finished second in points allowed and faced 204 possessions. That's nearly three additional games worth of drives to defend.

In addition, that incredible Patriots offense rarely turns the ball over and delivers the defense consistently excellent field position. Only the Chiefs turned the ball over less frequently than the Patriots on a per-possession basis in 2017. Brady & Co. turned over the ball just 6.9 percent of the time, substantially lower than the league average (11.4 percent). Only two teams went three-and-out less frequently.

As a result, the defense almost never faced a short field. The average defense in 2017 had to face just over 17 possessions that began on its own side of the field. The Patriots went up against just five of those possessions, and two of them were the Chiefs and Dolphins kneeling at the end of their victories. (If we remove drives in the final two minutes to get rid of kneel-downs, the Patriots faced three, and the league average was 15.5.)

During the Brady-Belichick era (2001-2017), the average defense has faced just under 368 short fields. Every team besides the Patriots has faced a minimum of 311 possessions beginning on their side of the field. Belichick's defenses have needed to defend only 227 short fields. The second-place Falcons are closer to the Ravens in 24th than they are to the Patriots. This has been a huge competitive advantage for the Pats."


Emphasis mine at the end. I think this summary (including the turnovers, etc.) explains pretty much the entire variance between yardage and points allowed during this era.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

During the Brady-Belichick era (2001-2017), the average defense has faced just under 368 short fields. Every team besides the Patriots has faced a minimum of 311 possessions beginning on their side of the field. Belichick's defenses have needed to defend only 227 short fields. The second-place Falcons are closer to the Ravens in 24th than they are to the Patriots. This has been a huge competitive advantage for the Pats."

Thanks for posting. That's f'n incredible.

 

[BaseballJones]

From Barnwell's SB preview:

"How can a defense simultaneously be great and abysmal? Context. Raw numbers don't account for the fact that the Patriots' offense makes its defense's life as easy as possible. The average Patriots drive on offense included a league-high 6.2 plays, keeping their defense fresh and off the field for long stretches of time. The New England defense faced just 172 possessions this season, the fifth fewest in football and 12 below the league average. Contrast that to the Jaguars, who finished second in points allowed and faced 204 possessions. That's nearly three additional games worth of drives to defend.

In addition, that incredible Patriots offense rarely turns the ball over and delivers the defense consistently excellent field position. Only the Chiefs turned the ball over less frequently than the Patriots on a per-possession basis in 2017. Brady & Co. turned over the ball just 6.9 percent of the time, substantially lower than the league average (11.4 percent). Only two teams went three-and-out less frequently.

As a result, the defense almost never faced a short field. The average defense in 2017 had to face just over 17 possessions that began on its own side of the field. The Patriots went up against just five of those possessions, and two of them were the Chiefs and Dolphins kneeling at the end of their victories. (If we remove drives in the final two minutes to get rid of kneel-downs, the Patriots faced three, and the league average was 15.5.)

During the Brady-Belichick era (2001-2017), the average defense has faced just under 368 short fields. Every team besides the Patriots has faced a minimum of 311 possessions beginning on their side of the field. Belichick's defenses have needed to defend only 227 short fields. The second-place Falcons are closer to the Ravens in 24th than they are to the Patriots. This has been a huge competitive advantage for the Pats."


Emphasis mine at the end. I think this summary (including the turnovers, etc.) explains pretty much the entire variance between yardage and points allowed during this era.

For sure. I remember commenting on this last year as well. The Pats do such a good job limiting turnovers, and covering kickoffs and punts, that opposing teams just rarely have good field position against New England. That stuff adds up over time.

I'd love to take a look at the Pats' average time of possession over these 17 years as well, because I bet over those 272 regular season games (16 games x 17 years = 272) they have one of the best TOP numbers in the NFL. So their offense has REALLY helped out their defense over the years. Big time.

 

[tims4wins]

For sure. I remember commenting on this last year as well. The Pats do such a good job limiting turnovers, and covering kickoffs and punts, that opposing teams just rarely have good field position against New England. That stuff adds up over time.

I'd love to take a look at the Pats' average time of possession over these 17 years as well, because I bet over those 272 regular season games (16 games x 17 years = 272) they have one of the best TOP numbers in the NFL. So their offense has REALLY helped out their defense over the years. Big time.

Not sure I agree with this. They were 20th in 2015. 14th in 2014. With their great offenses recently they score relatively quickly, and with their fast pace, the defense is on the field more.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Not sure what this says about the defense, but it says a lot about how BB feels about field position, and why he almost never trots Ghost out to kick 50+ yard field goals, and why they seem to get conservative when facing third and long in their own end, etc. Field position is simply huge for him and this is amazing:

As a result, the defense almost never faced a short field. The average defense in 2017 had to face just over 17 possessions that began on its own side of the field. The Patriots went up against just five of those possessions, and two of them were the Chiefs and Dolphins kneeling at the end of their victories. (If we remove drives in the final two minutes to get rid of kneel-downs, the Patriots faced three, and the league average was 15.5.)


During the Brady-Belichick era (2001-2017), the average defense has faced just under 368 short fields. Every team besides the Patriots has faced a minimum of 311 possessions beginning on their side of the field. Belichick's defenses have needed to defend only 227 short fields. The second-place Falcons are closer to the Ravens in 24th than they are to the Patriots. This has been a huge competitive advantage for the Pats.

A lot more good stuff here from Barnwell: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22266751/2017-nfl-playoffs-super-bowl-lii-preview-philadelphia-eagles-new-england-patriots

 

[tims4wins]

Not sure what this says about the defense, but it says a lot about how BB feels about field position, and why he almost never trots Ghost out to kick 50+ yard field goals, and why they seem to get conservative when facing third and long in their own end, etc. Field position is simply huge for him and this is amazing:

As a result, the defense almost never faced a short field. The average defense in 2017 had to face just over 17 possessions that began on its own side of the field. The Patriots went up against just five of those possessions, and two of them were the Chiefs and Dolphins kneeling at the end of their victories. (If we remove drives in the final two minutes to get rid of kneel-downs, the Patriots faced three, and the league average was 15.5.)


During the Brady-Belichick era (2001-2017), the average defense has faced just under 368 short fields. Every team besides the Patriots has faced a minimum of 311 possessions beginning on their side of the field. Belichick's defenses have needed to defend only 227 short fields. The second-place Falcons are closer to the Ravens in 24th than they are to the Patriots. This has been a huge competitive advantage for the Pats.

A lot more good stuff here from Barnwell: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22266751/2017-nfl-playoffs-super-bowl-lii-preview-philadelphia-eagles-new-england-patriots

Um read up like 3 posts

 

[johnmd20]

Emphasis mine at the end. I think this summary (including the turnovers, etc.) explains pretty much the entire variance between yardage and points allowed during this era.

So they were right. The best defense is a good offense.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Um read up like 3 posts

LOL. I had seen the Barnwell piece in another thread, and was looking for a thread to post that portion and didn't have a chance to read this one first. It's good enough to post twice anyway.

 

[BaseballJones]

Not sure I agree with this. They were 20th in 2015. 14th in 2014. With their great offenses recently they score relatively quickly, and with their fast pace, the defense is on the field more.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot?date=2004-02-02

Only goes back to 2003...

2003: 31:30 (#8)
2004: 31:34 (#6)
2005: 30:12 (#17)
2006: 31:23 (#6)
2007: 32:27 (#2)
2008: 32:25 (#2)
2009: 32:45 (#3)
2010: 29:43 (#20)
2011: 28:32 (#27)
2012: 30:27 (#12)
2013: 29:55 (#18)
2014: 29:56 (#18)
2015: 29:46 (#20)
2016: 31:18 (#4)
2017: 30:25 (#11)

Not totally sure what to make of this, or how other teams fared, or even that TOP generally equates to winning.

- 6 out of 15 years (40.0%) they were in the top 6 in TOP
- 9 out of 15 years (60.0%) they were in the top 12 in TOP
- 6 out of 15 years (40.0%) they were in the lower half of TOP
- 1 out of 15 years (6.8%) they were in the bottom 6 in TOP

Seems like generally they're pretty good in this area, and again, no idea how this stacks up to other teams over the same 15 year time period. Frankly, don't feel like doing the work either.

But yes your point is well-taken. During many of these years, the Pats' offense has just ripped through defenses like a hot knife through butter, scoring tons of points without a huge TOP margin.

 

[rodderick]

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot?date=2004-02-02

Only goes back to 2003...

2003: 31:30 (#8)
2004: 31:34 (#6)
2005: 30:12 (#17)
2006: 31:23 (#6)
2007: 32:27 (#2)
2008: 32:25 (#2)
2009: 32:45 (#3)
2010: 29:43 (#20)
2011: 28:32 (#27)
2012: 30:27 (#12)
2013: 29:55 (#18)
2014: 29:56 (#18)
2015: 29:46 (#20)
2016: 31:18 (#4)
2017: 30:25 (#11)

Not totally sure what to make of this, or how other teams fared, or even that TOP generally equates to winning.

- 6 out of 15 years (40.0%) they were in the top 6 in TOP
- 9 out of 15 years (60.0%) they were in the top 12 in TOP
- 6 out of 15 years (40.0%) they were in the lower half of TOP
- 1 out of 15 years (6.8%) they were in the bottom 6 in TOP

Seems like generally they're pretty good in this area, and again, no idea how this stacks up to other teams over the same 15 year time period. Frankly, don't feel like doing the work either.

But yes your point is well-taken. During many of these years, the Pats' offense has just ripped through defenses like a hot knife through butter, scoring tons of points without a huge TOP margin.

Wouldn't it be best to look at TOP per drive? Because at least this season the Patriots have had among the fewest offensive drives in football.

 

[Super Nomario]

I have a few thoughts:
1) TOP is overrated. If you're talking about the strain you put on opposing defenses, # of plays is a better indicator (this year the Pats were 8th in TOP / drive but #1 in plays per drive).
2) TOP also includes the defense getting off the field, too - which it has struggled with since 2010, excepting last year.
3) Obviously there are a lot of situations where TOP is not a benefit to the offense - trailing situations, or two-minute-drill situations. It would be interesting to run this analysis excluding those situations, though that is probably very difficult to do programmatically (maybe just look at first and third Q drives)?

 

[BaseballJones]

Yeah, I'm not that interested in TOP to do all that work. I totally agree that TOP isn't everything obviously. The Bills got slaughtered in TOP by the Giants in SB 20, and lost because of a missed FG. Norwood makes that and the overwhelming TOP advantage for the Giants is all for naught.

I think TOP is an issue in terms of limiting drives. Philly is going to want to keep the number of drives in this game to a minimum, I think.

 

[tims4wins]

Right I agree with the latter. Number of drives, and by extension number of plays, is the key stat for the Pats offense. They were at like 35 plays late in the 3rd against Jacksonville but finished with 61. Under 55-60 plays is generally a recipe for a Pats loss

 

[Al Zarilla]

Yeah, I'm not that interested in TOP to do all that work. I totally agree that TOP isn't everything obviously. The Bills got slaughtered in TOP by the Giants in SB 20, and lost because of a missed FG. Norwood makes that and the overwhelming TOP advantage for the Giants is all for naught.

I think TOP is an issue in terms of limiting drives. Philly is going to want to keep the number of drives in this game to a minimum, I think.

Don’t you think the game plan was to keep Kelly and the high flying Bills offense on the sideline as much as possible though? The Giants did, and they won.

 

[BaseballJones]

Don’t you think the game plan was to keep Kelly and the high flying Bills offense on the sideline as much as possible though? The Giants did, and they won.

Yes totally. The point is that it still came down to a very makable FG by Norwood. He makes it, all that TOP advantage goes for naught. And Norwood was a 60% kicker from that distance in 1990, so the right bet was that he'd make it. The Giants, for all that, got lucky to win that game.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

They are a good enough unit. They take coaching very well, adjust amazingly in second halfs, perform well in the red zone, and don’t get beat deep generally.

Brady has carried far worse defenses to the Super Bowl before. #1 in PPG allowed since week 4 is nothing to sneeze at. At very least they are above average. You can slice and dice with all the stats you’d like, but bottom line is they don’t allow big numbers against them.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Yes totally. The point is that it still came down to a very makable FG by Norwood. He makes it, all that TOP advantage goes for naught. And Norwood was a 60% kicker from that distance in 1990, so the right bet was that he'd make it. The Giants, for all that, got lucky to win that game.

What I take away from that game plan, execution and outcome is that the Giants got it right and probably would have lost if they’d tried to go toe to toe with Bills, who were thought to be the superior team. So, limiting the Bills TOP was the way for the Giants to win. Poor Scott Norwood.

 

[dcmissle]

Here’s a good description of that game plan, which resides in Canton.

1. They let Thomas run, run, run. Shocked the hell out of the Giants players. They had focused on stopping the run all season.

2. They ran 2 and 3 man defensive fronts. Also making its debut in the SB.

3. They clogged the middle, mostly with line backers, taking away crossing patterns.

4. When receivers caught a ball, they beat the fuck out of them.

5. On offense, they chewed clock.

http://www.giants.com/25/article-belichick.html

More than one of these elements should be very familiar.

 

[BaseballJones]

What I take away from that game plan, execution and outcome is that the Giants got it right and probably would have lost if they’d tried to go toe to toe with Bills, who were thought to be the superior team. So, limiting the Bills TOP was the way for the Giants to win. Poor Scott Norwood.

I agree. It was the correct strategy. The Patriots tried it too in SB 36. The Giants did it to NE in both SB 42 and SB 46. Philly will try it again this weekend I'm sure.

My point was simply that for all that, if Norwood makes a kick he makes 60% of the time, the Giants' massive TOP advantage doesn't matter.

 

[RetractableRoof]

I agree. It was the correct strategy. The Patriots tried it too in SB 36. The Giants did it to NE in both SB 42 and SB 46. Philly will try it again this weekend I'm sure.

My point was simply that for all that, if Norwood makes a kick he makes 60% of the time, the Giants' massive TOP advantage doesn't matter.

Agreed, but sometimes we forget that once you get to the Superbowl and give smart coaches 2 weeks, gaps between teams is reduced.

Maybe Buffalo wins that game by 10 points if the Giants don't control TOP that way. It might very well have been that the TOP advantage gave the Giants a shot at winning a game that they were supposed to lose.

Just because they almost lost, doesn't mean the TOP wasn't critical to their success.

 

[dcmissle]

Agreed, but sometimes we forget that once you get to the Superbowl and give smart coaches 2 weeks, gaps between teams is reduced.

Maybe Buffalo wins that game by 10 points if the Giants don't control TOP that way. It might very well have been that the TOP advantage gave the Giants a shot at winning a game that they were supposed to lose.

Just because they almost lost, doesn't mean the TOP wasn't critical to their success.

True about 2 weeks Prep, but Mary Levy was no slouch. We might substitute “genius” for “smart” for that postseason and SB because, as the 30 for 30 on the two “Bills” just explained, the Giants were essentially in dime at San Francisco in the NFL Championship game, unveiling an approach that John Madden noted on the broadcast had not been shown all season. And the 49ers then were gunning for their third straight Super Bowl.

 

[Reverend]

From Barnwell's SB preview:

"How can a defense simultaneously be great and abysmal? Context. Raw numbers don't account for the fact that the Patriots' offense makes its defense's life as easy as possible. The average Patriots drive on offense included a league-high 6.2 plays, keeping their defense fresh and off the field for long stretches of time. The New England defense faced just 172 possessions this season, the fifth fewest in football and 12 below the league average. Contrast that to the Jaguars, who finished second in points allowed and faced 204 possessions. That's nearly three additional games worth of drives to defend.

In addition, that incredible Patriots offense rarely turns the ball over and delivers the defense consistently excellent field position. Only the Chiefs turned the ball over less frequently than the Patriots on a per-possession basis in 2017. Brady & Co. turned over the ball just 6.9 percent of the time, substantially lower than the league average (11.4 percent). Only two teams went three-and-out less frequently.

As a result, the defense almost never faced a short field. The average defense in 2017 had to face just over 17 possessions that began on its own side of the field. The Patriots went up against just five of those possessions, and two of them were the Chiefs and Dolphins kneeling at the end of their victories. (If we remove drives in the final two minutes to get rid of kneel-downs, the Patriots faced three, and the league average was 15.5.)

During the Brady-Belichick era (2001-2017), the average defense has faced just under 368 short fields. Every team besides the Patriots has faced a minimum of 311 possessions beginning on their side of the field. Belichick's defenses have needed to defend only 227 short fields. The second-place Falcons are closer to the Ravens in 24th than they are to the Patriots. This has been a huge competitive advantage for the Pats."


Emphasis mine at the end. I think this summary (including the turnovers, etc.) explains pretty much the entire variance between yardage and points allowed during this era.

Complementary football!

“This is what the Patriots have done all year. Only two teams had fewer offensive drives, yet the Patriots rank second in points and first in yards. They rank first in yards per drive, points per drive, and plays per drives. They score on just under half of their possessions, the best figure in the NFL, and only the Chiefs have turned the ball over on fewer of their drives. This makes the defense look good. The Patriots rank fifth in scoring defense, but a lot of that is propped up by the offense. They’ve seen the fourth-fewest drives. Opposing offenses have the worst starting field position in the league by a full yard, almost four yards worse than league average. New England routinely plays with a lead that makes opposing offenses one-dimensional, and sometimes forces risky plays. Combine these favorable circumstances with the classic Bill Belichick “bend-but-don’t-break” red zone D, and you’ve got a recipe for a defense that ranks 31st in yards per drive allowed and in DVOA, but top-five in points allowed.”

Part of a section from here:
http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/teams-nfl/afc-east/new-england-patriots/2018/01/10/indulge-me-in-some-homerdom-brady-for-mvp/

 

[trs]

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot?date=2004-02-02

Only goes back to 2003...

2003: 31:30 (#8)
2004: 31:34 (#6)
2005: 30:12 (#17)
2006: 31:23 (#6)
2007: 32:27 (#2)
2008: 32:25 (#2)
2009: 32:45 (#3)
2010: 29:43 (#20)
2011: 28:32 (#27)
2012: 30:27 (#12)
2013: 29:55 (#18)
2014: 29:56 (#18)
2015: 29:46 (#20)
2016: 31:18 (#4)
2017: 30:25 (#11)

Also looking at those numbers from just a quantitative standpoint, it looks like every year the difference between first and last is around 4 minutes. 4 minutes of extra time with the ball is a quick successful drive, but not much more. You can also perhaps infer from these numbers that the figures cluster pretty heavily around the median, which seems itself quite centered at 30:00, that TOP numbers are mostly dictated by the rules of the game -- each team gets the ball for about half the game. This isn't soccer, and there are just so many other factors involved as others have mentioned that have a negative effect on TOP of a positive effect on the outcome of the game.

The points above about short fields are pretty stunning. I know see "average starting position" sometimes during broadcasts, but maybe it would be more immediately apparent to show "average distance to touchdown" (doesn't really have much of a ring that term...), based obviously on the same data. "The Patriots so far this game have needed on average 63 yards to score a touchdown, while the Jags have needed 82." In that example, the game for the Jags has been made 30% more difficult!

 

[Deathofthebambino]

“This is what the Patriots have done all year. Only two teams had fewer offensive drives, yet the Patriots rank second in points and first in yards. They rank first in yards per drive, points per drive, and plays per drives.

Hey Game Thread people, next time you freak out because the Pats went 3 and out, and Allen had to come in to punt, please remember these numbers. If you were rooting for any other team, you'd suffer heart failure by the 2nd quarter.

 

[troparra]

Here’s a good description of that game plan, which resides in Canton.

1. They let Thomas run, run, run. Shocked the hell out of the Giants players. They had focused on stopping the run all season.

2. They ran 2 and 3 man defensive fronts. Also making its debut in the SB.

3. They clogged the middle, mostly with line backers, taking away crossing patterns.

4. When receivers caught a ball, they beat the fuck out of them.

5. On offense, they chewed clock.

http://www.giants.com/25/article-belichick.html

More than one of these elements should be very familiar.

Didn't Rex do that, or something similar, in the 2010 playoffs? Would a defense like that work against NE today?
Jax two weeks ago didn't come with "pressure up the gut" like just about every analyst said they had to do. And they almost won. Jax clearly closed the gap between the two teams.

 

[Super Nomario]

So ... worse than 2011.

 

[jsinger121]

So ... worse than 2011.

Agreed. 2011 team only gave up 21 in the Super Bowl.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

Football is such a small sample size and very matchup-based.

But I can confidently say this ended up being a paper tiger. They passed well enough at Heinz Field, but were otherwise untested until last night. We need some actual talent.

 

[Super Nomario]

Football is such a small sample size and very matchup-based.

But I can confidently say this ended up being a paper tiger. They passed well enough at Heinz Field, but were otherwise untested until last night. We need some actual talent.

They were awful against Pittsburgh, too. 24 points on 9 drives and needed the James bobble (which involved no skill on the Pats' behalf) to keep it in the 20s. I guess that performance might have been enough to win last night.

 

[pedroia'sboys]

Going to be very interesting off season expect to see a huge turnover on defense. Only players worth talking about.

Hightower
Van Noy
Malcolm Brown
Guy
Wise
Rivers
Flowers
DM
Chung
Harmon
Rowe
Gilmore.

Sign a veteran DE Chris long type.
Add a DT to pair with Brown
Need two linebackers can't trust hightower Roberts can't play. One run stuffer one who can actually cover a RB.

I would rank the needs.
OLB
DE
DT
Slot corner

Have the Two top 40 picks hopefully they go D back to back. They can free up close to 8 million just by cutting Allen /Gillislee. Get me to free agency.

 

[RedOctober3829]

They were awful against Pittsburgh, too. 24 points on 9 drives and needed the James bobble (which involved no skill on the Pats' behalf) to keep it in the 20s. I guess that performance might have been enough to win last night.

In addition to poor execution, they went up against(in hindsight for me at least) the offensive scheme that has given Belichick/Patricia fits. 3 of the worst defensive performances this year were against RPO teams in Kansas City, Carolina, and Philadelphia.

 

[TheMoralBully]

They were also having to go hurry up to keep the Eagles offense off their game, and had a lot of big plays. In the majority of the games where the defense appeared to turn a corner, the offense was sustaining drives and being extremely efficient. Last night the defense had to hold its own and come up with some stops in a game where the drives were not limited, and it failed abysmally. The talent is obviously very weak in the front seven, but I'd love to see some fresh defensive perspectives brought into the fold with Patricia on the way out.

 

[Super Nomario]

In addition to poor execution, they went up against(in hindsight for me at least) the offensive scheme that has given Belichick/Patricia fits. 3 of the worst defensive performances this year were against RPO teams in Kansas City, Carolina, and Philadelphia.

They got burned by an RPO for a TD in the Pittsburgh game, too. I'd expect to see Belichick spending a lot of time with his college buds Urban Meyer, Brian Kelly, and Nick Saban this offseason. They just had no clue how to defend it.

 

[dcmissle]

In addition to poor execution, they went up against(in hindsight for me at least) the offensive scheme that has given Belichick/Patricia fits. 3 of the worst defensive performances this year were against RPO teams in Kansas City, Carolina, and Philadelphia.

And the Pats will have to adjust to this. Just as Nick Saban did a while ago after whining about college offenses and pleading for some rule changes. We landed where we started -- full circle from opening night.

Yes worse than 2011, and even the biggest bears here may have underestimated the extent of it by not scrutinizing the opposition after the supposed week 4 turning point.

 

[Super Nomario]

They were also having to go hurry up to keep the Eagles offense off their game, and had a lot of big plays. In the majority of the games where the defense appeared to turn a corner, the offense was sustaining drives and being extremely efficient. Last night the defense had to hold its own and come up with some stops in a game where the drives were not limited, and it failed abysmally. The talent is obviously very weak in the front seven, but I'd love to see some fresh defensive perspectives brought into the fold with Patricia on the way out.

The sad thing is, the drives were limited. The Eagles only had 10 drives, which is fewer than average. The D just couldn't get off the field, because they were bad.

 

[Harry Hooper]

They got burned by an RPO for a TD in the Pittsburgh game, too. I'd expect to see Belichick spending a lot of time with his college buds Urban Meyer, Brian Kelly, and Nick Saban this offseason. They just had no clue how to defend it.

No clue or no linebackers?

One of the worst things about last night's defense was how little punishment it doled out to the Philly skill players. Give up some 1st downs, OK, but at least make them pay the price.

 

[TheMoralBully]

The sad thing is, the drives were limited. The Eagles only had 10 drives, which is fewer than average. The D just couldn't get off the field, because they were bad.

This is true, but in basically every game where the Patriots D looked solid my impression was the Patriots were either keeping them off the field or racing to leads and putting them in a good position. I agree with you the D was terrible, and it was probably pretty bad all along to where we should have seen this as a real possibility. There was probably some worst possible matchup scenarios last night, but I don't know, I think there were warning signs all year.

Not sure where the quick turnaround for this squad comes from. They seem to be bad at everything.

 

[Bleedred]

The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game.

Now...with that out of the way, on the 4th and 2 conversion, the Patriot covering Zach Ertz was absolutely blown up by a crossing Eagle receiver, giving Ertz the split second necessary to be open for the catch. I don't know if this is being discussed elsewhere, or if that pick play occurred within 1 yard of the LOS (I didn't think so) but it was the biggest no-call of the game IMO.

The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game.

 

[Super Nomario]

Lol he's the long snapper, unless your LS plays another position you're gonna have both of them tied for last.

FWIW no long snapper has played another position in like 20 years. But I know @Delonte James Jr. has been on Cardona's performance most of the year.

No clue or no linebackers?

It's not an either-or.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game.

Now...with that out of the way, on the 4th and 2 conversion, the Patriot covering Zach Ertz was absolutely blown up by a crossing Eagle receiver, giving Ertz the split second necessary to be open for the catch. I don't know if this is being discussed elsewhere, or if that pick play occurred within 1 yard of the LOS (I didn't think so) but it was the biggest no-call of the game IMO.

The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game. The officials did not cost them the game.

I believe it was 4th & 1. maybe a long 1. so maybe you're right and it was 2 yards beyond

but we're not getting a pick call that was within a yard of being legal. there were ZERO PI calls last night, you realize? players got away with shit on both sides.

 

[Bleedred]

I believe it was 4th & 1. maybe a long 1. so maybe you're right and it was 2 yards beyond

but we're not getting a pick call that was within a yard of being legal. there were ZERO PI calls last night, you realize? players got away with shit on both sides.

Oh, I agree. I thought the game was generally well officiated and I appreciate the fact that the refs did not insert themselves into the game (there were like 9 PIs on the last hail mary). If it was truly that close...1 yard v. 2 yards, then sure...it seemed more than that, but I could definitely be wrong.

Long story short...Eagles earned this victory in the face of an epic performance by TB12.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Going to be very interesting off season expect to see a huge turnover on defense. Only players worth talking about.

Moved this post to this thread but do create new threads for other topics!

 

[tims4wins]

Ultimately - while they played possibly worse than weeks 1-4, and one of the worst games of the last 17 years - it was a very different kind of bad from weeks 1-4. Weeks 1-4 were marked by guys running free and untouched for huge gains. Last night they put Philly in 3rd and 4th down nearly all game... and just couldn't get off the field.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I’d like to know why Rowe started on Jeffrey instead of Gilmore.