2017 Butler Watch: Love Me Tender

[tims4wins]

Giardi is killing it today

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 10m10 minutes ago




One last pt on Butler: if he wanted to a Patriot for life, why would agent be shopping for an offer paying him Gilmore money? Anyone? (1/2)


Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 9m9 minutes ago




(2/2) translation: I'll be a Patriot for life if they pay me like I want to be paid. It's not that hard.



Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago




If Butler says wants to be a Patriot for life, doesn't that actually hurt chance for offer? Why then would another team do Pats negotiating?

 

[Van Everyman]

So is this some big pissing match between Giardi and Howe?

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

I fully expect Butler to be back with everyone involved in the situation saying afterwards that they never said any of what was published by the media.

 

[Bowhemian]

I fully expect Butler to be back with everyone involved in the situation saying afterwards that they never said any of what was published by the media.

They call that "saving face".

 

[InstaFace]

Giardi is killing it today
Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 10m10 minutes ago
One last pt on Butler: if he wanted to a Patriot for life, why would agent be shopping for an offer paying him Gilmore money? Anyone? (1/2)

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 9m9 minutes ago
(2/2) translation: I'll be a Patriot for life if they pay me like I want to be paid. It's not that hard.

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago
If Butler says wants to be a Patriot for life, doesn't that actually hurt chance for offer? Why then would another team do Pats negotiating?

Why, Mike? Because it drives the cost up for the Pats if they do keep him (by setting market benchmarks), reducing their resources they can deploy, and also because they actually want the player and if Foxboro under-bids they can get some real talent with proven leadership capability and the best set of fundamental skills and situational understanding that are taught anywhere in the game.

You do yourself (or your client) no favors as a player by EITHER over-selling your willingness to remain, or over-selling your eagerness to leave. Making moderate noises in both directions is pretty clearly the best practice. Remarks after leaving like Brandon Spikes' "4 years a slave" are remarkable partly because of how rare they are - nobody wants to burn bridges.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Albert Breer‏Verified account @AlbertBreer 3m3 minutes ago
Saints coach Sean Payton tells AP's @brettmartel that Patriots RFA Malcolm Butler will visit New Orleans on Thursday.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

@MikeReiss
Potential scenario: Saints sign Butler to offer sheet, Patriots don't match & get back 1st traded for Brandin Cooks.

 

[jsinger121]

@MikeReiss
Potential scenario: Saints sign Butler to offer sheet, Patriots don't match & get back 1st traded for Brandin Cooks.

Wrong they get the 11th pick back which is the Saints pick.

 

[MillarTime]

Really, really interesting. Tough to see a bad scenario for the Pats if he sings an offer sheet. They either get Butler signed or get #11? Is that right?

 

[RedOctober3829]

Many seem to believe that they would do a trade outside the RFA route due to Belichick/Payton relationship.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Why would the Pats facilitate a trade for the #32 pick rather than call the Saints' bluff and hope they sign Butler to an offer sheet and forfeit #11?

Honestly, I'd be just fine with the alternative: Butler playing out 2017 at the roughly $4M tender.

 

[jsinger121]

Why would the Pats facilitate a trade for the #32 pick rather than call the Saints' bluff and hope they sign Butler to an offer sheet and forfeit #11?

Honestly, I'd be just fine with the alternative: Butler playing out 2017 at the roughly $4M tender.

Agreed. This is business. Who cares about the relationship BB has with Payton. Definitely call the Saints bluff. They are desperate for defense. Either force them to give up 11 or facilitate a trade for the 32nd pick along with the value of extra picks that would get the that to equal the 11th pick.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

Why would the Pats facilitate a trade for the #32 pick rather than call the Saints' bluff and hope they sign Butler to an offer sheet and forfeit #11?

Honestly, I'd be just fine with the alternative: Butler playing out 2017 at the roughly $4M tender.

Because it was worked out as part of the Cooks deal.

 

[bankshot1]

Business is business. If the Pats can get the #11, take it. Or get the 32 back and the Saints 2nd rounder.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Why would the Pats facilitate a trade for the #32 pick rather than call the Saints' bluff and hope they sign Butler to an offer sheet and forfeit #11?

Honestly, I'd be just fine with the alternative: Butler playing out 2017 at the roughly $4M tender.

Perhaps the Pats would prefer getting the #32 pick over having a disappointed Butler back in Foxboro, and Payton has told BB no offer will be made if the #11 pick is in play.

 

[DJnVa]

Perhaps Payton can do BB a solid due to the BB/Payton relationship.

 

[DJnVa]

Doug Kyed:

The Saints likely would be more willing to give up No. 32 overall than No. 11.

Gee, ya think?

http://nesn.com/2017/03/malcolm-butler-to-visit-saints-as-patriots-cornerback-searches-for-new-team/

 

[Stitch01]

Perhaps the Pats would prefer getting the #32 pick over having a disappointed Butler back in Foxboro, and Payton has told BB no offer will be made if the #11 pick is in play.

This. I think its possible the Pats do it for slightly less than 32. Like the Saints 2nd and a pick swap or a 4th or something. Hope its for 11 though

 

[heavyde050]

BB has to get back either #11 or #32 if he deals Butler right? Even if he forgoes the offer sheet route and just trades. Maybe a trade of #32 and a second round pick next year or something?

 

[Ed Hillel]

Can the Pats legally get 32 back? I thought there were restrictions on trading picks back so quickly.

BB has to get back either #11 or #32 if he deals Butler right? Even if he forgoes the offer sheet route and just trades. Maybe a trade of #32 and a second round pick next year or something?

Prepare to be disappointed. If nobody is signing him to an offer sheet, they're probably not getting a first back. I bet it's a 2nd and 3rd or something. I think I'd prefer that to 32, though. Maybe it is 32. In that case, I think the Pats will have fleeced the Saints overall. Basically trading Butler and a 3rd for Cooks and a 4th. Both are very good, but Cooks is younger and has an extra year of control.

 

[heavyde050]

I just hope the Pats don't trade Butler for only a second or third rounder. I think it would be better just to have Butler back.
I mean the Pats are entitled to a first as he is a RFA, to forgo that value, the Pats should be compensated.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I just hope the Pats don't trade Butler for only a second or third rounder. I think it would be better just to have Butler back.
I mean the Pats are entitled to a first as he is a RFA, to forgo that value, the Pats should be compensated.

They are only entitled if someone signs an offer sheet, which isn't happening. This will be a trade.

 

[bankshot1]

BB already did Payton a solid by doing the Cooks deal before the Saints had to pay Cooks $900K in roster bonus money.

Pats paid that money to Cooks.

AND there were no better 1st rounders out there for Payton to trade for.

if NO want Malcolm there is no reason for BB to negotiate against himself.

 

[heavyde050]

They are only entitled if someone signs an offer sheet, which isn't happening. This will be a trade.

This is true, but the Pats don't have to trade him, right?

 

[heavyde050]

Can the Pats legally get 32 back? I thought there were restrictions on trading picks back so quickly.
Prepare to be disappointed. If nobody is signing him to an offer sheet, they're probably not getting a first back. I bet it's a 2nd and 3rd or something. I think I'd prefer that to 32, though. Maybe it is 32. In that case, I think the Pats will have fleeced the Saints overall. Basically trading Butler and a 3rd for Cooks and a 4th. Both are very good, but Cooks is younger and has an extra year of control.

That makes sense if it is a second and a third as opposed to just #32. NO would have to have a relatively early first, maybe around pick 42.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Every beat writer seems to think this is going to be it between Butler and NE.

@MarkDanielsPJ
IMO writing was on the wall as soon as the Pats gave Gilmore that money. They prob signed a No. 1 CB because they knew they'd lose Butler

@RyanHannable
This is same approach the Patriots took with Chan Jones & Collins. Not part of long-term future, trade him year early, get something back.

 

[Otto]

There are other possible explanations, but the timing of the visit (not till Thursday) suggests that they (Saints/Butler and Saints/Patriots) aren't even close to a deal yet.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

@Eric_Edholm
Another team in Malcolm Butler mix: #Texans. Source said they're interested in sending 2nd-rd pick to NE if can get Butler signed long term

LOL. FU Billy.
- BB

Edit: Texans pick is the 57th overall.

 

[boca]

 

[dbn]

If they lose Butler they are down one CB from last year. I don't think Revis is the answer, but it seems they need to add another body, no? Maybe Rowe takes Ryan's snaps, but then who takes Rowe's snaps? C Jones? Relying on a draft pick would be risky (see: Jones, C.) Here are the UFA CBs.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

If they lose Butler they are down one CB from last year. I don't think Revis is the answer, but it seems they need to add another body, no? Maybe Rowe takes Ryan's snaps, but then who takes Rowe's snaps? C Jones? Relying on a draft pick would be risky (see: Jones, C.) Here are the UFA CBs.

My guess is they pick up a CB with the #12 pick they'll be getting for JG (amiriiiiight?)

Also:

@RapSheet
On #Saints & Malcolm Butler: They’ve begun negotiations on a new contract & hope to strike a deal this week. Then talk trade with #Patriots

 

[Ed Hillel]

Saints and Butler have begun contract negotiations, then if they strike deal this week Pats and Saints talk trade.

 

[amfox1]

Can't see Bill settling on pick #57 (330 draft points) for Butler. Probably would require #25 (720) or equivalent.

I agree with those who have posited that Belichick and Payton have already worked out the parameters of a Butler trade. I assume it is either pick #32 (590) or picks #43 (470) and #103 (88).

EDIT: If Butler is traded for 43/103, the net of the two trades would be:

NO receives Butler, #32
NE receives Cooks, #43, #118

(note: NE currently picks #72, #96, #132, #163, #183, #200, #239)

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Miguel with a twist:

@patscap
The Pats and the Saints could agree on a trade for 32 without involving an offset sheet

 

[Harry Hooper]

Miguel with a twist:

@patscap
The Pats and the Saints could agree on a trade for 32 without involving an offset sheet

What does that mean? Butler has to sign the tender before he can be traded, right?

 

[Ale Xander]

My guess is they pick up a CB with the #12 pick they'll be getting for JG (amiriiiiight?)

Also:

@RapSheet
On #Saints & Malcolm Butler: They’ve begun negotiations on a new contract & hope to strike a deal this week. Then talk trade with #Patriots

Ageed with this. If you can't get 11 from Saints, I'd probably be ok with a package of 32, 2nd rounder in '18, and Garrett Grayson. Getting Grayson allows you to trade JG to Cleveland for #12 plus another high pick and you can use #12 to get an impact defensive player (Barnett, McDowell, tradavious white, peppers or foster), including possibly trading down and getting another pick.

 

[Curt S Loew]

Miguel with a twist:@patscap
The Pats and the Saints could agree on a trade for 32 without involving an offset sheet

What does that mean? Butler has to sign the tender before he can be traded, right?

You're confusing tender with offer sheet. "offset" is a typo I would think.

 

[Harry Hooper]

You're confusing tender with offer sheet. "offset" is a typo I would think.

Well, at least that tweet was FIRST, actually making sense is a much less important criterion.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Ageed with this. If you can't get 11 from Saints, I'd probably be ok with a package of 32, 2nd rounder in '18, and Garrett Grayson. Getting Grayson allows you to trade JG to Cleveland for #12 plus another high pick and you can use #12 to get an impact defensive player (Barnett, McDowell, tradavious white, peppers or foster), including possibly trading down and getting another pick.

You mean like..

@KevinRDuffy
The Patriots were checking in with several CBs at the combine, including Florida's Teez Tabor (fringe 1st round/2nd round prospect).

If I could only find an awesome draft guide written by people I trust...

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

I hated the Butler deal when it was rumored to be Butler for Cooks straight up - and I really like Cooks. I REALLY hated the possible Butler PLUS for Cooks. Even with the extra year of control Pats get. Because they are comparable players but Butler plays a position where there's a real dearth of top talent. So, getting back our #32 doesn't really help. Really hoping BB holds onto Butler or gets good value for him.

Getting the #11 would basically make the NE-NO deal be Cooks for Malcom, a 3rd and a swap of first round picks. Fair?

 

[snowmanny]

What does that mean? Butler has to sign the tender before he can be traded, right?

This is what they did with Welker, I think. They made a trade with Miami but it was in lieu of going through the official offer sheet. So maybe NO is willing to give up the 32 but not the 11 and NE would rather make the trade than deal with an unhappy player...

 

[DJnVa]

Every beat writer seems to think this is going to be it between Butler and NE.

@MarkDanielsPJ
IMO writing was on the wall as soon as the Pats gave Gilmore that money. They prob signed a No. 1 CB because they knew they'd lose Butler

If they signed #1 corner because they knew they'd lose Butler then the writing was on the wall BEFORE they gave Gilmore that money.

 

[Stitch01]

I'll predict the Pats get 42 and a 2018 4th.

If they move Butler I chalk it up to BB deciding the combination of Butler fit on a one year RFA deal being suboptimal (and worth less than the net draft compensation coming back) and a desire to accommodate a player who deserves a payday. I'm not going to be upset if they don't get a first

Time will tell if he evaluated Gilmore vs Butler correctly.

 

[nattysez]

This is what they did with Welker, I think. They made a trade with Miami but it was in lieu of going through the official offer sheet. So maybe NO is willing to give up the 32 but not the 11 and NE would rather make the trade than deal with an unhappy player...

Yep: http://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4801848/how-wes-welkers-07-patriots-arrival-could-foreshadow-malcolm-butlers-departure

As others have said above, I have to admit I'm not 100% clear why the Pats would do this beyond professional courtesy or if the total picks the other team is willing to give exceed the first-rounder in value (or, I guess, if this was all part of the Cooks trade, but they had to do the first part of the Cooks trade quickly to be sure NO didn't get stuck with the $900k payment he was due). That goes for the Miami-Welker situation as well as this one.

 

[heavyde050]

I'll predict the Pats get 42 and a 2018 4th.

That seems like it could be a pretty accurate prediction. It just seems light to give up Butler for a second and a future fourth.
I mean if Cooks and a fourth was worth a first and third (I know there are contract differences) I would think Butler would be worth more than a second and fourth. He is a #1 CB.

 

[ifmanis5]

Can we back up for a second? Did BB sour on Butler due to something he was seeing on film or did he get sick of dealing with his amateur agent?

 

[Curt S Loew]

What does that mean? Butler has to sign the tender before he can be traded, right?

This is what they did with Welker, I think. They made a trade with Miami but it was in lieu of going through the official offer sheet. So maybe NO is willing to give up the 32 but not the 11 and NE would rather make the trade than deal with an unhappy player...

Harry was asking about tender not offer sheet. Of course they can trade him without an offer sheet signed.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

A young, tenacious, hard working #1 CB - why would we give him away? Every indication is that he wouldn't be a dick in the locker room, including the fact that he was unhappy LAST year and behaved himself. I'd much rather hold onto him, see if things calm down, try to get back to the table and, failing that, franchise him and try again.

I doubt they do this, and I suspect we will be disappointed by whatever trade we make, given the RFA and big $$$ of it all. But it seems worth being dogged about - outside of QB, not sure there's a more valuable commodity in today's NFL than a good, young corner.

Edit clarity

 

[Stitch01]

Can we back up for a second? Did BB sour on Butler due to something he was seeing on film or did he get sick of dealing with his amateur agent?

I'd guess neither and that BB always has viewed Butler as just below a "number one corner" to oversimplify and is valuing him as such.

I think its hard to blame the agent without more information. He works for Butler, not the other way around.

All speculation though, not sure we will ever know. Maybe we will get more color like we did when Walker left.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

So, if the Patriots were to trade Butler and get back the first round pick that they traded to NOS for Cooks, then the final tally on the deals would be that the Patriots got Cooks for Butler plus swapping their #103 pick for the #131 pick.

It's a bit convoluted because of the deflategate penalty, but in the end that's what it is -- by acquiring the NOS 4th round pick (#118), the Patriots restored their pick number #132 (which becomes #131).

I hate that trade actually. I think in a Cooks for Butler trade the Patriots are the ones that should get extra value. I would hope that NEP would get another NOS pick. Maybe a 2018 third rounder at least.