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Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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And this is a bottom-five owner, a toxic environment, and a roster almost totally bereft of talent. It could work, sure, but it's got a decent chance of failing even if Lynch and Shanahan are the right guys.
Wait. I get that beating up York is fun, but let's relax on "bottom five owner" stuff. The guy put his faith in Baalke, which ended up being a huge miss. Outside of that he has come within one play of a Super Bowl and has done the same shit a lot of owners do early in their ownership. He has DeBartolo and his father (who is an incredible human being. Seriously. Look him up. I have a family member who worked directly for him for nearly 40 years....he is quite something) watching over him. He isn't going to clown shoes this up much more.
 

Super Nomario

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Wait. I get that beating up York is fun, but let's relax on "bottom five owner" stuff. The guy put his faith in Baalke, which ended up being a huge miss. Outside of that he has come within one play of a Super Bowl and has done the same shit a lot of owners do early in their ownership. He has DeBartolo and his father (who is an incredible human being. Seriously. Look him up. I have a family member who worked directly for him for nearly 40 years....he is quite something) watching over him. He isn't going to clown shoes this up much more.
I'll believe it when I see it. He backed the wrong horse in Baalke / Harbaugh, had Gase in hand and then screwed up by trying to force him to take Tomsula as DC, decided he didn't want to lose Tomsula so promoted him to HC, then canned him after a year, brought in Chip and then canned him after a year, and now he's hiring Lynch totally off the grid after just about everyone under the sun pulled out. He had to give the two new guys six years because, understandably, they want security since Shanahan will be the fourth HC in four years. The new stadium is a disaster. No one knows what Parag Marathe's role is or how much influence he has. Everything York has touched has turned to garbage. I'll believe he's not clown shoes when he stops being clown shoes.
 

bradmahn

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Apr 23, 2010
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I live in the bay area and know more than a handful of fans who have quit supporting the team due to many of the listed ills SN offers as evidence of York's bottom-5 ranking amongst owners. These are diehards who stuck with the team during the aughts and will not support the 9ers until he is "fired".

As I see it, there is about zero evidence he's removed his clown shoes.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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I'll believe it when I see it. He backed the wrong horse in Baalke / Harbaugh, had Gase in hand and then screwed up by trying to force him to take Tomsula as DC, decided he didn't want to lose Tomsula so promoted him to HC, then canned him after a year, brought in Chip and then canned him after a year, and now he's hiring Lynch totally off the grid after just about everyone under the sun pulled out. He had to give the two new guys six years because, understandably, they want security since Shanahan will be the fourth HC in four years. The new stadium is a disaster. No one knows what Parag Marathe's role is or how much influence he has. Everything York has touched has turned to garbage. I'll believe he's not clown shoes when he stops being clown shoes.
There is no doubt that he backed the wrong guy in the Baalke/Harbaugh, but Gase has said repeatedly that it was Baalke who pushed him away from the job, not York.

You have assumed that everyone under the sun had pulled out, but let's be honest, there is no evidence for that and I am always skeptical, there are 32 of these jobs in the world. SF has a decent fan base, and a stadium, so the GM situation is far from appalling despite what the media folks who like to stir drama like to claim. Right now it looks like he has a GM and a HC who see things somewhat similarly and feel comfortable with each other. It may end up not working out, but I am nowhere near as skeptical as you.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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I live in the bay area and know more than a handful of fans who have quit supporting the team due to many of the listed ills SN offers as evidence of York's bottom-5 ranking amongst owners. These are diehards who stuck with the team during the aughts and will not support the 9ers until he is "fired".

As I see it, there is about zero evidence he's removed his clown shoes.
Wow, like half a dozen people? Man, thanks for that info. That is belief changing.
 

Super Nomario

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There is no doubt that he backed the wrong guy in the Baalke/Harbaugh, but Gase has said repeatedly that it was Baalke who pushed him away from the job, not York.
Maybe (reports are conflicting) but that doesn't reflect well on York, either, since the guy they ended up hiring instead (Tomsula) was a stooge and Gase looks pretty good.

You have assumed that everyone under the sun had pulled out, but let's be honest, there is no evidence for that and I am always skeptical, there are 32 of these jobs in the world.
I'm not assuming; that's what's been reported. Maybe reports are inaccurate (it wouldn't be the first time), but I'm not making it up. Cable, McDaniels, Gutekunst, and Wolf were all reported to have pulled out.

(there's a your mom joke here somewhere but I'll let you have that one)

Also, some other guys like Ballard didn't even take an interview.

SF has a decent fan base, and a stadium, so the GM situation is far from appalling despite what the media folks who like to stir drama like to claim. Right now it looks like he has a GM and a HC who see things somewhat similarly and feel comfortable with each other. It may end up not working out, but I am nowhere near as skeptical as you.
There are definitely plusses to the job (the Bay Area is an awesome place to live), and as you noted, there are only 32 gigs. But let's see how comfortable Shanahan and Lynch are once they've worked more than zero days in the job / together / with York / Marathe.
 

edmunddantes

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Plus for Lynch it's pretty easy guaranteed money. 6 years. No one will hold it against you if it's a dumpster fire again. Just blame York.
 

garlan5

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Harbaugh picked Baalke over Lombardi way back so it's not always a great idea to have the coach pick or influence the GM but I think Shanahan had some influence here as well. I'm guessing daddy Shanahan will be there to help in some fashion, maybe with draft boards etc.
 

lambeau

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Iohn York may be a wonderful man, but he took over, fired Mariucci, and turned a dynasty into losers. Then he gave it to Jed, who...
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Maybe (reports are conflicting) but that doesn't reflect well on York, either, since the guy they ended up hiring instead (Tomsula) was a stooge and Gase looks pretty good.
I don't disagree that the buck stops at the owner, and the owner, by putting faith in Baalke, made a huge mistake. But his mistake was Baalke and the Baalke journey. Even Gase......doesn't every Miami coach look good in their first year?

I don't know, and I certainly wouldn't bet the ranch that Lynch/Shanahan are going to crush it. But I think that there are certain media memes that people take that have been so wrong they merit questioning, such as:

- Situation X is so bad no one wants it (counterpoint: really? There are 32/64/96, etc. of these positions on the planet, these guys are ferociously competitive, and you are only as good as your last season, so not many guys can turn down any job in the NFL).
- The assistant coach(es) we have all been talking about is definitely the best head coaching prospect out there and will be successful (counterpoint: about 75% of the hires at the HC position). Anyone else blows.
- Rick BUrlesons Yam Bag has not slept with my mom.
 

lambeau

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York family without Mariucci/Harbaugh: ten straight losing seasons--and Harbaugh fell in their lap winning big 13 miles away.
 

coremiller

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I don't disagree that the buck stops at the owner, and the owner, by putting faith in Baalke, made a huge mistake. But his mistake was Baalke and the Baalke journey. Even Gase......doesn't every Miami coach look good in their first year?

I don't know, and I certainly wouldn't bet the ranch that Lynch/Shanahan are going to crush it. But I think that there are certain media memes that people take that have been so wrong they merit questioning, such as:

- Situation X is so bad no one wants it (counterpoint: really? There are 32/64/96, etc. of these positions on the planet, these guys are ferociously competitive, and you are only as good as your last season, so not many guys can turn down any job in the NFL).
- The assistant coach(es) we have all been talking about is definitely the best head coaching prospect out there and will be successful (counterpoint: about 75% of the hires at the HC position). Anyone else blows.
- Rick BUrlesons Yam Bag has not slept with my mom.
Jed's mistakes go back way further than Baalke. The pre-Harbaugh regime was also a total disaster. Jed's first coach was Mike Nolan, who ultimately had to be fired after feuding with his #1 draft pick QB Alex Smith (drafted over Aaron Rodgers, remember) over whether Smith was really injured (spoiler alert: he was). Jed fired Nolan and replaced him with Mike Singletary, who was both tactically/strategically incompetent and quickly became a national laughingstock and had to be fired as well.

Building the new stadium is Jed's only real non-Harbaugh accomplishment, but even that has been something of a fiasco. The 49ers are now feuding in court with the city of Santa Clara over accounting for how tax dollars were spent. The stadium was designed without consideration for how the sun would affect spectators, leaving one side of the stadium heavily exposed during the mid-afternoon (it badly needs a roof). The playing surface has been an ongoing disaster that has had to be resodded several times each year. And they managed the new season ticket roll out in such a way as to alienate many of their most loyal, long-term fans (including my father, who had been a season ticket holder for 20+ years at Candlestick but gave up his seats since he would have had to buy a PSL to keep his seats -- at a much higher per ticket price -- in the new stadium).

Jed's done all this in an atmosphere of disdain and secrecy w/r/t the local media, which has created an ongoing PR disaster in which the local reporters are constantly savaging his leadership in the local papers and on twitter.

He also doesn't have Eddie watching over him, by most accounts the two sides of the family don't get along very well. And while his father may be a nice guy, his stewardship of the franchise before turning it over to Jed wasn't much better (nobody fondly remembers the Dennis Ericksen era).
 

InstaFace

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Even Gase......doesn't every Miami coach look good in their first year?
I think your greater faith than most (or lack of hard skepticism, perhaps) in Lynch's prospects is totally defensible. But this... is this a serious argument? It was presented in a serious tone. You're saying that there is something unique about Miami that magically grants new coaches immediate success, and then takes it from them after the first year? Is it the south beach nightclubs? Is it The Cubans(tm)? C'mon, man.

The idea that one year is too small a sample size to judge a HC a success has some merit, of course. But Gase taking a 6-10 team and getting them to the playoffs in his first year is a pretty strong indicator that York, at the very least, had better bets to make when he opted for Tomsula. To nerd it up for a sec: The error bars for his skill as a HC are still large, but the mean expectation is pretty high.
 

Michelle34B

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Aug 2, 2006
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The GM role is viewed differently by each NFL team. There are owners/de facto GMs like Mike Brown and Jerry Jones, to the Patriots where Parcells, Pioli, and Belichick have all been effectively the GM in every way but the title. The job description/duties for Lynch should be known before it can be considered a failure.

They obviously have a lot of work to do, but if Cousins finds his way to San Francisco, and Cleveland passes on Myles Garrett, that would be a fantastic start. I can already hear ESPN calling them geniuses.

John Lynch's dad has been a huge success in sports broadcasting. Shanahan might be paying Lynch a bigger compliment than it sounds when he says he liked his preparation as a TV analyst.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Jed's mistakes go back way further than Baalke. The pre-Harbaugh regime was also a total disaster. Jed's first coach was Mike Nolan, who ultimately had to be fired after feuding with his #1 draft pick QB Alex Smith (drafted over Aaron Rodgers, remember) over whether Smith was really injured (spoiler alert: he was). Jed fired Nolan and replaced him with Mike Singletary, who was both tactically/strategically incompetent and quickly became a national laughingstock and had to be fired as well.

Building the new stadium is Jed's only real non-Harbaugh accomplishment, but even that has been something of a fiasco. The 49ers are now feuding in court with the city of Santa Clara over accounting for how tax dollars were spent. The stadium was designed without consideration for how the sun would affect spectators, leaving one side of the stadium heavily exposed during the mid-afternoon (it badly needs a roof). The playing surface has been an ongoing disaster that has had to be resodded several times each year. And they managed the new season ticket roll out in such a way as to alienate many of their most loyal, long-term fans (including my father, who had been a season ticket holder for 20+ years at Candlestick but gave up his seats since he would have had to buy a PSL to keep his seats -- at a much higher per ticket price -- in the new stadium).

Jed's done all this in an atmosphere of disdain and secrecy w/r/t the local media, which has created an ongoing PR disaster in which the local reporters are constantly savaging his leadership in the local papers and on twitter.

He also doesn't have Eddie watching over him, by most accounts the two sides of the family don't get along very well. And while his father may be a nice guy, his stewardship of the franchise before turning it over to Jed wasn't much better (nobody fondly remembers the Dennis Ericksen era).
OK, let's start at the beginning here.

First off, both Nolan and Singletary are great examples of "hiring the hot coordinator who everybody thought would be awesome." Nolan was the big ticket coordinator that everyone wanted when they hired him. His dad was a former head coach, he was supposed to be a big deal. Singletary came in without a search as the Nolan hiring was very abrupt, but again, there weren't many voices saying "He won't be able to cut it" when he got the promotion. York hired the guy everyone wanted in Nolan and then he put in the guy that - supposedly - everyone on the defense loved. Giving Nolan GM powers cost them Aaron Rodgers and it also led to structural issues that ran deep. That was a bad move, but when we are making the case that York is a bottom 5 owner.....holy crap, tons of teams make the mistake of hiring "hot coordinator du jour" and then giving him too much power.

As far as the stadium stuff.....to be honest, that is politics. Any city dumb enough to pay for a stadium will get buyer's remorse, but Santa Clara has more money to pay for lawyers than Baltimore does. And he charged PSLs??? Every team in the league has been doing this once they open their new stadium for the last 20+ years! I'm not seeing "bottom 5 owner" on any of this. Neither of those two issues seem wildly unique to York.

Jed York operates in secrecy and disdain for the local media? Frankly....I think that is pretty stupid for an owner to do, but does that really matter in terms of whether he is good, bad or indifferent? Most NFL owners either don't speak to the media or they do so in very limited manners. I do think that a good chunk of the disdain people have for York stems from:

a) His very real, very dumb decision to back Baalke over Harbaugh. I am not letting him off the hook for that one.
b) The fact that the media, who like simple stories of bad people, good people, etc. has decided that they hate the guy. This also happened to Al Davis, who was one of the greatest owners in NFL history.

John York had no interest in running the 49ers. He didn't even want to leave Northeast Ohio. Teams go up and teams go down. Under the Yorks the 49ers won, then lost, then returned to the Super Bowl. That doesn't seem all that bottom 5-esque to me.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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I think your greater faith than most (or lack of hard skepticism, perhaps) in Lynch's prospects is totally defensible. But this... is this a serious argument? It was presented in a serious tone. You're saying that there is something unique about Miami that magically grants new coaches immediate success, and then takes it from them after the first year? Is it the south beach nightclubs? Is it The Cubans(tm)? C'mon, man.

The idea that one year is too small a sample size to judge a HC a success has some merit, of course. But Gase taking a 6-10 team and getting them to the playoffs in his first year is a pretty strong indicator that York, at the very least, had better bets to make when he opted for Tomsula. To nerd it up for a sec: The error bars for his skill as a HC are still large, but the mean expectation is pretty high.
My point was that everyone is lauding Gase as being a great coach. He may be, but it has been one season and Tony Sparano was considered a genius after one season, as was Wannstedt, as was Jimmy Johnson, etc. The job seems to be hard to do well for a long duration.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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I take my cues from you, whose argument in favor of Jed York (!) Is his family, a history of mismanagement common among novice owners, and contrarianism.
Or you have such a hardon to prove that Josh McDaniels turned down the gig that you don't want to/aren't able to follow along with the conversation.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Actually like 50% of teams have PSLs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_seat_license

I'm not going to take the time to research which of those have been opened in the last twenty years (with the exception of the Bears and their renovation I think all of them have been), but it's not what you're representing. I'm working off of anecdotal casework here but pretty much everything I've read and heard about Levi is that it's a shitshow and the fans are not happy.

Not being argumentative here, but I'd wonder what your list of bottom five owners would look like? I'm not sure how Jed doesn't rank there. I mean, I'm actually drawing a blank here. Irsay is a shit show, but it's not as bad as SF. Spanos has issues but I don't think he ranks bottom five. Kronke, ok, I'll grant you without argument. Haslam, sure. Too early to call on Pegula. Woody, sure.

Beyond that I'm wondering what your list would look like. It's been a tire fire in SF recently and I'm not sure how you sort the blame other than assigning it to Jed. I think four coaches in four years - regardless of circumstance - pretty much gives you a leg up for that honor.
 

Gambler7

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Or you have such a hardon to prove that Josh McDaniels turned down the gig that you don't want to/aren't able to follow along with the conversation.
It doesn't matter to me either way, but Bob Kraft said as much on 98.5 yesterday. They interviewed him and McDaniels together at media night.

"He had a great chance to leave and head an organization, and he made a decision to stay with us. That means so much to the whole organization,” said Kraft. “We are so lucky to have him. Don’t think that doesn’t go unnoticed.”
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/01/31/josh-mcdaniels-says-he-may-never-leave-patriots-sounds-like-robert-kraft-agrees-zolak-bertrand/
 

coremiller

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OK, let's start at the beginning here.

First off, both Nolan and Singletary are great examples of "hiring the hot coordinator who everybody thought would be awesome." Nolan was the big ticket coordinator that everyone wanted when they hired him. His dad was a former head coach, he was supposed to be a big deal. Singletary came in without a search as the Nolan hiring was very abrupt, but again, there weren't many voices saying "He won't be able to cut it" when he got the promotion. York hired the guy everyone wanted in Nolan and then he put in the guy that - supposedly - everyone on the defense loved. Giving Nolan GM powers cost them Aaron Rodgers and it also led to structural issues that ran deep. That was a bad move, but when we are making the case that York is a bottom 5 owner.....holy crap, tons of teams make the mistake of hiring "hot coordinator du jour" and then giving him too much power.

As far as the stadium stuff.....to be honest, that is politics. Any city dumb enough to pay for a stadium will get buyer's remorse, but Santa Clara has more money to pay for lawyers than Baltimore does. And he charged PSLs??? Every team in the league has been doing this once they open their new stadium for the last 20+ years! I'm not seeing "bottom 5 owner" on any of this. Neither of those two issues seem wildly unique to York.

Jed York operates in secrecy and disdain for the local media? Frankly....I think that is pretty stupid for an owner to do, but does that really matter in terms of whether he is good, bad or indifferent? Most NFL owners either don't speak to the media or they do so in very limited manners. I do think that a good chunk of the disdain people have for York stems from:

a) His very real, very dumb decision to back Baalke over Harbaugh. I am not letting him off the hook for that one.
b) The fact that the media, who like simple stories of bad people, good people, etc. has decided that they hate the guy. This also happened to Al Davis, who was one of the greatest owners in NFL history.

John York had no interest in running the 49ers. He didn't even want to leave Northeast Ohio. Teams go up and teams go down. Under the Yorks the 49ers won, then lost, then returned to the Super Bowl. That doesn't seem all that bottom 5-esque to me.
Singletary wasn't a "hot coordinator", he wasn't even a coordinator. He was the 49ers' linebackers coach when they fired Nolan midseason and made Singletary the interim coach. So get your facts right first.

It's not just the decision to back Baalke over Harbaugh. Harbaugh is a brilliant coach but he's also a total asshole who delights in driving everyone crazy, so I could see wanting to get rid of him. But a) they should never have (not-so) secretly tried to trade him to Cleveland, then kept him anyway b) they should never have submarined the entire 2014 season by spending the season leaking BS about their coach to the national media, thereby destabilizing the team, and c) if you are going to fire Harbaugh, for gods sake hire a real coach and not Jim Tomsula, ANOTHER out-of-his-depth promoted position coach, when you've interviewed real candidates like Gase (who they alienated by insisting that their mole Tomsula be the defensive coordinator, which Gase rightly rejected). Plus, after botching the Baalke/Harbaugh issue and then watching Tomsula go down in flames, Baalke should have been fired a year ago. York screwed up the whole thing every which way.
 

InstaFace

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"He had a great chance to leave and head an organization, and he made a decision to stay with us. That means so much to the whole organization,” said Kraft. “We are so lucky to have him. Don’t think that doesn’t go unnoticed.”
That does sound a little more genteel than "I paid him a king's ransom to stay! My money is greener than Jed York's! Great deal for both sides, huh Josh? *nudges elbow*"
 

coremiller

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Also, on the PSLs, the 49ers' PSLs were much higher than most other stadia. The cheapest was $2000/seat. The Falcons' cheapest on their new stadium opening next year is $500. At MetLife (similarly wealthy demographic), the Giants' cheapest is $1000 and the Jets don't require PSLs at all for the cheapest seats.
 

heavyde050

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Also, on the PSLs, the 49ers' PSLs were much higher than most other stadia. The cheapest was $2000/seat. The Falcons' cheapest on their new stadium opening next year is $500. At MetLife (similarly wealthy demographic), the Giants' cheapest is $1000 and the Jets don't require PSLs at all for the cheapest seats.
Just as an added detail - most of the PSL's are financed over a certain number of years. For the SBL at Levi's it is 7 years with zero interest if paid in full over the first 18 months. Also once the SBL (or PSL) is paid off, the only cost is the season tickets.
I know $2k is still a lot to just add on if a prior season ticket holder never had to pay, but there are ways to pay it off rather than just lump sum. And the cost isn't forever.

Edit - self correction the zero interest is March 2018 not 18 months.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Not being argumentative here, but I'd wonder what your list of bottom five owners would look like? I'm not sure how Jed doesn't rank there. I mean, I'm actually drawing a blank here. Irsay is a shit show, but it's not as bad as SF. Spanos has issues but I don't think he ranks bottom five. Kronke, ok, I'll grant you without argument. Haslam, sure. Too early to call on Pegula. Woody, sure.

Beyond that I'm wondering what your list would look like.
I too would be curious to see Yammer's list, and think that would be more productive than continuing the track the discussion was sucked down into instead...
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Not being argumentative here, but I'd wonder what your list of bottom five owners would look like? I'm not sure how Jed doesn't rank there. I mean, I'm actually drawing a blank here. Irsay is a shit show, but it's not as bad as SF. Spanos has issues but I don't think he ranks bottom five. Kronke, ok, I'll grant you without argument. Haslam, sure. Too early to call on Pegula. Woody, sure.

Beyond that I'm wondering what your list would look like. It's been a tire fire in SF recently and I'm not sure how you sort the blame other than assigning it to Jed. I think four coaches in four years - regardless of circumstance - pretty much gives you a leg up for that honor.
Honestly, I don't think Kroenke really belongs in that company. He's a bad owner if you're from St Louis, given that he moved the team. But otherwise he is just a super rich guy with no interest in meddling with the football side of the operation and who is generally fairly patient with his front office and coaches (in his short time in STL and with his other sports teams). His first hires (Snead at GM, Fisher HC) obviously didn't yield the desired results on the field but that happens to a lot of owners. I think you could do a lot worse than Kroenke and I'd work for him over Jed York in a cocaine heartbeat if I was an NFL HC.
 

soxhop411

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“@Eric_Edholm: Per @JayGlazer, Kyle Shanahan could interview Patriots asst. coach Brian Flores for DC position with #49ers.”

 

Hoya81

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I posted this in the Atlanta thread, but I don't get this at all. Maybe Sark is much better than I know, but I'd be disappointed if I was a Falcon fan.
He was considered an up and coming coach not too long ago before getting derailed by alcohol problems. Still just 42.
 

MainerInExile

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Flores and Daboll? It's a brian drain from Foxborough.

Hey-oh!
I always assumed Daboll was the OC-in-waiting for when McD inevitably leaves for an HC job. He may be getting impatient, though. (Understandably, as I'm sure McD didn't expect it to take this long either.)