2014-5 Cavs: Greatest offense ever?

Blacken

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I don't think that's anywhere near their ceiling, either. That game had a lot of hiccups.
 

Cellar-Door

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They are up to 4th best in the league. Of course they are also tied with the Celtics for 4th worst defense.
They'll need to outscore everyone.
 

ElUno20

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Looks like lebron got tired of slumping. This pace may burn him out before the break though
 

Mugthis

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8 games in, the Cavs rank 10th all-time in Offensive Rating, scoring 114.6 points per 100 possessions. This year's Mavs rank 1st all-time, at 116.9. 
 
1. '15 DAL, 116.9
2. '87 LAL, 115.6
3. '92 CHI, 115.5
4. '88 BOS, 115.4
5. '10 PHO, 115.3
6. '96 CHI, 115.2
7. '95 ORL, 115.1
8. '87 DAL, 114.9
9. '95 SEA, 114.8
10. '15 CLE, 114.6
...
56. '13 MIA, 112.3 (Best Miami season)
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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BigSoxFan said:
Seems to me that LeBron is turning into Kobe.
 
I think he is a bit frustrated after having what he had in Miami.  Many people who really followed the Association knew this already but now maybe casual fans are figuring out that Chris Bosh was, maybe, the true second banana to LeBron for the past few Wade-declining seasons.  He really was a huge help cleaning up on defense.
 
The sad fact is that while Kevin Love is an elite offensive player, he continues to be a massive liability on defense.   And Kyrie Irving, thus far, isn't showing any improvement to his defensive game either.  Aside from LeBron, there really isn't anyone on the Cavs squad who has what can be considered an above average defensive pedigree.  LeBron, at his age, is slipping too - this season is continuing a trend from his peak D-Rating season back in '11-12  so he alone cannot make up for the rest of the Cavs turn-style defense.  
 
If this team is going to improve, someone is going to have to become a defensive stopper down low as well as on the wings.   Its just not clear who that is and maybe its going to have to come from the outside.
 

garlan5

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
 
I think he is a bit frustrated after having what he had in Miami.  Many people who really followed the Association knew this already but now maybe casual fans are figuring out that Chris Bosh was, maybe, the true second banana to LeBron for the past few Wade-declining seasons.  He really was a huge help cleaning up on defense.
 
The sad fact is that while Kevin Love is an elite offensive player, he continues to be a massive liability on defense.   And Kyrie Irving, thus far, isn't showing any improvement to his defensive game either.  Aside from LeBron, there really isn't anyone on the Cavs squad who has what can be considered an above average defensive pedigree.  LeBron, at his age, is slipping too - this season is continuing a trend from his peak D-Rating season back in '11-12  so he alone cannot make up for the rest of the Cavs turn-style defense.  
 
If this team is going to improve, someone is going to have to become a defensive stopper down low as well as on the wings.   Its just not clear who that is and maybe its going to have to come from the outside.
Joe Harris can play some good defense
 

HomeRunBaker

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Rudy Pemberton said:
At what point do they scapegoat the rookie coach, and bring back Mike Brown?

Kidding. I think.
Obviously kidding about Brown but my concerns on Blatt with this team is running its course so far. If he's fired some may call him a scapegoat I'll stick with him being the wrong guy to lead this team.
 

ElUno20

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In terms of the coaching, it seems Lbj is the real coach of the team so far. Blatt seems to go whichever way the wind blows, he hasn't shown a true direction.

As noted above, this was all pretty predictable. Bosh, Wade (even a handicap wade), and Spo were proven and elite, love and kyrie aren't. This isnt nba2k15, experience matters.
 

bosox4283

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HomeRunBaker said:
Obviously kidding about Brown but my concerns on Blatt with this team is running its course so far. If he's fired some may call him a scapegoat I'll stick with him being the wrong guy to lead this team.
 
Why wrong guy? Real question -- I've been really interested in this Cavs experiment. 
 

nighthob

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bosox4283 said:
 
Why wrong guy? Real question -- I've been really interested in this Cavs experiment. 
 
Blatt is, essentially, the Euroleague Mike Brown. He made his bones as a defensive oriented coach, but he wasn't exactly known for his offensive creativity. He got the Cavs as his first NBA assignment and inherited two players that just aren't interested in defense and a roster that has some inherent usage issues. In Miami Bosh willingly focused on defense and agreed to be mostly the other guy on offense (and you can see what he's capable of with the way he's scored this year).
 
In Cleveland Love isn't and probably can't be that guy, and his horrific D makes everyone around him worse. I suppose they could line up Love and James at the C/PF spots and let James be that guy, but this was what I said would be the problem months ago; sacrificing the offense of the best offensive player on the planet to satisfy two lesser lights just isn't a winning strategy if you hope to compete for titles. Honestly they should be looking to move Irving for someone like Rondo, who's happy to never shoot the ball. Or a PF/C like Horford that would go a long way to fixing their defensive issues while being able to slot nicely into the third banana role. The PG spot could always be filled with a warm body, and it's easier in Cleveland where they have James and don't really need their PG to do anything more than dribble the ball across the half court line and play D.
 

Blacken

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I have trouble with the idea of trading a guy like Irving, because you probably do force LeBron back into the role of primary ball-handler and I think he's better when you have some flexibility there...but man, Horford would look really good on that team.
 

Kliq

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I would really enjoy seeing this blow up in his face because GM LeBron put this whole team together, if that makes me a sadist then so be it.
 
I heard some ESPN talking head the other day mention that Blatt isn't the right fit for Cleveland, because he lets LeBron be the coach. Spolestra didn't get enough credit for being willing to step in and yell at his team and tell LeBron what he needs to be doing. So when LeBron was "slacking off" on defense, Spo would let him know, while Blatt doesn't do anything. Honestly speaking, I think it is dumb to think that a player as talented and as accomplished as James needs a coach to tell him to play harder, but it does raise an interesting point. Blatt really doesn't have the luxury to get on LeBron's case, because we all know that with a snap of his fingers, LeBron could send Blatt back to Russia. It doesn't lend itself to a great environment when a coach is more focused on appeasing his players instead of actually coaching.
 

nighthob

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Blacken said:
I have trouble with the idea of trading a guy like Irving, because you probably do force LeBron back into the role of primary ball-handler and I think he's better when you have some flexibility there...but man, Horford would look really good on that team.
 
The deal would be complicated slightly by Irving's PPP status. But the Hawks are also under the cap so a larger deal could be constructed using either Thompson or Waiters and the Memphis lottery pick for Horford & Teague. 
 
Kliq said:
I would really enjoy seeing this blow up in his face because GM LeBron put this whole team together, if that makes me a sadist then so be it.
 
I heard some ESPN talking head the other day mention that Blatt isn't the right fit for Cleveland, because he lets LeBron be the coach. Spolestra didn't get enough credit for being willing to step in and yell at his team and tell LeBron what he needs to be doing. So when LeBron was "slacking off" on defense, Spo would let him know, while Blatt doesn't do anything. Honestly speaking, I think it is dumb to think that a player as talented and as accomplished as James needs a coach to tell him to play harder, but it does raise an interesting point. Blatt really doesn't have the luxury to get on LeBron's case, because we all know that with a snap of his fingers, LeBron could send Blatt back to Russia. It doesn't lend itself to a great environment when a coach is more focused on appeasing his players instead of actually coaching.
 
The bigger problem is that they hired a glorified defensive coordinator to coach a team with Irving and Love. In theory it makes sense to bring in a defensive guy when two of your stars are defensive turnstiles, but he hasn't got through to them. Cleveland's problem isn't "James not listening" it's Love and Irving refusing to play defense and forcing the entire defensive load onto an injury prone center, LeBron, and a collection of older wing players. In the modern NBA defense out of the 4/5 spots is the most important part of your defense. And Love is simply killing them out there. They get zero defense out of the point of attack and their primary help defender is a turnstile. James definitely made a mistake in wanting to bring in Love. Because Varejão isn't good enough defensively to hide Love.
 

Blacken

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It's too early to bury them, obviously, but this is where I'd start worrying that Love's defensive issues are "can't" rather than "won't." I've always thought it was "hey, I'm in Minnesota and nobody's gonna pay me on defense, so conserve energy for the offensive end" but even when he's trying it doesn't look good.

(Irving's defensive issues are firmly "won't".)
 

nighthob

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Blacken said:
It's too early to bury them, obviously, but this is where I'd start worrying that Love's defensive issues are "can't" rather than "won't." I've always thought it was "hey, I'm in Minnesota and nobody's gonna pay me on defense, so conserve energy for the offensive end" but even when he's trying it doesn't look good.

(Irving's defensive issues are firmly "won't".)
 
That's a good point, Love may really be just a glorified Jared Sullinger on defense. We always refer to Sullinger as a poor man's Love, so it might be that way on both sides of the ball. I mean watching Olynyk just torch him play after play was sad. I wonder if the Hawks would go for it given that they would have five and a half years to build around Irving? Horford and Teague would go a long way to fixing the Cavs' issues by giving them an end of game defensive alignment and finally provide some defense at the PG spot.
 

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I've decided to hold off on commenting because I remember people (myself definitely included) getting really excited over the Heat's struggling into a 9-8 start back in the 10-11 season.
 

Cellar-Door

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Blacken said:
It's too early to bury them, obviously, but this is where I'd start worrying that Love's defensive issues are "can't" rather than "won't." I've always thought it was "hey, I'm in Minnesota and nobody's gonna pay me on defense, so conserve energy for the offensive end" but even when he's trying it doesn't look good.

(Irving's defensive issues are firmly "won't".)
Love is a terrible defender, and based on his physical profile he'll never be a rim protector. I think you can get away with that if your C is a rim protector and your guards defend well. (Which keeps guards from getting runs at Love, or drawing the C and making Love rotate.)
The problem is Varajeao and Thompson aren't rim protectors, and Irving whether it is can't or won't, is a terrible defender at the point.
I don't think you can have a championship team with subpar defenders at 3 spots, 2 of them among the worst in the league at their positions.
 

Ed Hillel

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Cellar-Door said:
I don't think you can have a championship team with subpar defenders at 3 spots, 2 of them among the worst in the league at their positions.
 
The 2012 Heat had Wade, Bosh, and Allen.
 

nighthob

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Allen was bench depth and Bosh isn't a subpar defender (he's a net positive as the primary help defender and a net negative as the post defender, but it evens out). Wade, was of course terrible. The Cavs by contrast start Irving, Love, and Waiters.
 

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nighthob said:
Allen was bench depth and Bosh isn't a subpar defender (he's a net positive as the primary help defender and a net negative as the post defender, but it evens out). Wade, was of course terrible. The Cavs by contrast start Irving, Love, and Waiters.
 
Waiters actually has been coming off the bench since the first week of the year in favor of Marion.
 
I don't think their issue is the number of subpar defenders as much as it is the total lack of rim protection, a bit similar to the issues NY has faced with Amare in recent years (can dominate offensively at the 5, but gives it all back and more at the other end, and if you play him at the 4, it moves your best player out of his ideal position). Varejao and Thompson are also both better off as 4s if at all possible.
 

moly99

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nighthob said:
Allen was bench depth and Bosh isn't a subpar defender (he's a net positive as the primary help defender and a net negative as the post defender, but it evens out). Wade, was of course terrible. The Cavs by contrast start Irving, Love, and Waiters.
 
This wasn't true in year one. It was in year three, though.
 
I stand by my earlier view of this team. A big three wherein two of the three guys don't play defense isn't going to work. And they were crazy to build a team around FOUR primary ballhandlers and nobody but an injury-prone Varejao to protect the rim. In the long run having Lebron mentor Wiggins and bringing in someone like Larry Sanders would have been a smarter move.
 
They'll figure out most of their offensive problems and start winning games, but they won't win a championship with this defense.
 

Devizier

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I wouldn't be surprised if this Cavaliers team puts together a decent season, but they are only six deep. They will get crushed in the playoffs once Lebron and co. run out of gas. Dion Waiters sucks. 
 

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The Cavs are hugely fortunate to be able to fatten up their win total against Leastern teams while they're figuring stuff out. In the west a team that plays that cruddy D might get buried before the all-star break and find itself looking at a #10-11 seed, superstars be damned.

With the breakup of the Heat and the apparent demise of Derrick Rose, I wouldn't be surprised if 9 of the 10 teams playing the best basketball right now are in the western conference (with the 10th playing in Canada).
 

moly99

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In the 60's and 70's the East was superior due to the lack of a salary cap. After the cap was put in place the East was still slightly better for a long time until things flipped around 2003. I would expect the draft to quickly correct for the weakness of one conference or division, but this obviously doesn't happen. What that suggests is that organizational competence (or incompetence) has a surprisingly large role in a team's fate. And right now I'd have to say that based on reputation the west has better owners and GM's.
 
There are a bunch of really stupid owners in the East like Dan Gilbert and James Dolan who want success but don't have the patience or willingness to let coaches, GM's and scouts do their jobs independently. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'd place more weight on these teams being reliant on such a crapshoot as the draft by attempting to project how 20-year old kids develop as men once handed millions of dollars.

The good teams are looking to improve by acquiring actual experienced NBA players which makes them stronger. For some reason the bad teams feel it's perfectly fine to sell a dream while waiting to get lucky.....resulting in the good teams being even more dominant since the bad aren't even trying to compete with them.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
I'd place more weight on these teams being reliant on such a crapshoot as the draft by attempting to project how 20-year old kids develop as men once handed millions of dollars.
 
 
That's pretty much how I see it. Organizational philosophy; seems like many more teams in the Eastern Conference see tanking as a viable strategy. And when your conference is easier to begin with, you create a snowball effect where your team has to be *really* bad in order to not make the playoffs.
 

Koufax

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Let's see, what could Danny get for Zeller?  Wouldn't that be ironic.
 

nighthob

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He has Wright and a TPE to eat contracts. If he can facilitate a C to the Cavs for the Memphis lottery pick it could be a coup.
 

oumbi

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nighthob said:
He has Wright and a TPE to eat contracts. If he can facilitate a C to the Cavs for the Memphis lottery pick it could be a coup.
While the more draft picks the better (Danny's strategy appears to be the acquisition all 30 first round picks), I am not sure the Memphis pick is all that desirable. Not only is Memphis doing quite well, but the pick is heavily protected for the next two years. Something such as 1-5 and 15-30 protected. 
 
Why is this pick worth the resources? This is a real question.
 
Oh, and Merry Christmas eve to one and all. 
 

nighthob

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Because it only comes due as a lottery pick until the last year. Essentially it's a gamble that the bottom drops out on Memphis in the next two years (and if Gasol did leave the implosion would be rapid). Or at the very least they have an off year with 42-46 wins with a late lottery pick the reward.
 

moly99

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I would rather keep Zeller than deal him for yet another pick in the 20's.
 
Also, I'm disappointed that the world "Inevitable" wasn't in the headline for Varejao's injury this year.
 

Kliq

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Just came here to say that I hate Brian Windhorst, him and LeBron having a symbotic relationship is downright creepy.
 

HomeRunBaker

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ifmanis5 said:
David Blatt is on the clock. When you get beat down at home by the Pistons, the end is near.
I said it here at the time that is was a horrible selection to manage this type of team. In fairness to Gilbert & Co they didn't have LeBron or Love at the time but it was still a strange hire at the time when they are going after LeBron. Not sure what the rush was to hire a flier such as Blatt so soon in the process.
 

Blacken

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Yeah--I still think Blatt will be a good NBA coach, but this is getting dumped in the deep end and the people high on him (myself included) clearly underestimated the amount of work this squad would still need.
 

ElUno20

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This is how you stand behind your coach, as lost as he might be

Melo on Fisher:
"I think if it was anybody else in his position, I think this probably would've crumbled already," Anthony said after scoring 19 points in 29 minutes. "I think he's doing a great job of keeping everybody focused on the task at hand and believing in what we're trying to do."

Lebron should take notes. all the passive agressive shit does is start fires.
 

ElUno20

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Genuine or not. Lebron continually adds to fires in his career when things aren't going well. It's annoying. Either way you are getting what you want. It will come down to him if blatt stays or goes. But until then, how about not being a passive aggressive dick?
 

Eddie Jurak

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RedOctober3829 said:
@SpearsNBAYahoo: Cavs say LeBron James is expected to be out two weeks with left knee and low back strains.
Somewhere in the Cleveland area, Dion Waiters is laughing.
 

Blacken

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Eddie Jurak said:
Somewhere in the Cleveland area, Dion Waiters is laughing.
Because he will be getting twenty shots a game.