2013-2014 Syracuse Basketball: Same Zone, New Conference

Ed Hillel

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That was a great game. Duke couldn't get that shot off at the end, as Syracuse had the entire perimeter guarded. I think Suleman probably could have driven by for a layup if he had pressed it.
 

ivanvamp

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Jul 18, 2005
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SU isn't clueless on defense.  Duke shot really, really well.  Duke is a very good offensive team that had a great night shooting threes.  It happens from time to time against Syracuse.  And that three to end regulation…..ridiculous.
 
On Parker's fifth foul, he clearly swung his elbow.  Yes, embellished by Christmas no doubt.  But Parker clearly threw the elbow.  I would have been ok with them not calling it, but nobody can really complain that they did.  
 
Duke just had nobody to stop SU from destroying them in the paint as the game wore on.  
 
That was one of the best college basketball games I've ever seen.  And I've seen an awful lot of them.  Just incredible from start to finish.  Duke probably wins the rematch in Cameron.  
 

Clears Cleaver

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Duke shot 42 percent on 40 threes. Not sure they are going to do that again. But I suspect that Cuse will again shoot 56 percent on twos vs Duke. They just cannot defend.

Great game.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Amazing.

Great acting to foul out Parker and Jefferson. But you know what, Christmas and Grant constantly swat shit cleanly and get whistled. That Hood dunk toward the end, for example. All ball, grazed just enough so he'd back-rim it.

Again, what a game.
 

DukeSox

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um...dont watch the ball, watch the arm. you fell for same thing ref did
 

Rossox

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Lived up to the hype. Duke shot 3's and Cuse got dunks. I'll take that any day.

What a game. Wow.
 

LeftyTG

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DukeSox said:
um...dont watch the ball, watch the arm. you fell for same thing ref did
Jason Williams thought it was a clean block too.  
 
All the ref stuff is just bellyaching.  Every game has judgment calls and there was nothing egregious in this game.  Heck, Parker and Jefferson were the beneficiaries of some ticky tack and one calls in the first half and Grant got hammered a couple of times with no call.  
 
The game was played at a remarkably high level.  I can ever remember watching a game where neither team really had a long stretch of empty possessions.  Both teams were consistent and efficient and nobody could pull away.  
 
I was impressed with the way Duke was able to break down the zone.  Not exactly a news flash, but Duke is very well coached and it showed.  Most times when teams are new to the zone, even well coached teams, there is an adjustment period to the speed and reality of the Syracuse zone.  Duke didn't really have that adjustment.  Duke also had a nice wrinkle where they tossed the ball to the guy at the foul line who immediately tossed it back.  The Syracuse guards instinctively collapsed, and the quick return pass always opened up a wide open look.  Expect Syracuse to see that more often in the next few games as coaches see the tape.
 
I thought Ennis really struggled on defense today.  He was his typical steady self on offense but he got caught several times trailing a driver into the lane, leaving a 3 point shooter wide open.  
 
Just a great, great game.  Can't wait for the rematch, although there is likely no way either team will match their performance today.
 
Oh, and Syracuse is now ripe for the picking Monday night against Notre Dame.  Classic letdown game.
 

DukeSox

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jay will needs to establish his neutral creds to keep getting work, no surprise there
 

LeftyTG

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DukeSox said:
And LeftyTG, just to completely blow you up, here is "all ball":

https://vine.co/v/MzD2UqOpi55

all arm brah ;)
That's the same vine Williams commented on acknowledging it was all ball.  I happen to agree with the former Duke player.  I'm not sure what you're seeing, but it is all ball up top and some grazing on the follow through after the block.  Why rely on the vine, here's the full play:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8nHYdAuVFQ
 
It is nowhere near the obvious call you are claiming it is.  Certainly not "blowing me up".  
 

bsj

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Seems closer than some are making out to be. Watching that vine, watching the arms, you could argue that the defender did not move his arm into the offensive player at all and all contact was initiated by the offensive player.
 

8slim

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I can't take Duke fans complaining about officiating seriously, sorry. I'm not even a big hater, but this is a program that built its defensive presence around exaggerating reactions to fouls. It worked, but turnabout is fair play.

More importantly, if you are going to take 35 threes vs. the other teams 4, then there's going to be a huge foul discrepancy. Make one more than the 20 you missed, or make one of the 2 bad FT misses down the stretch, and maybe a close judgement call is not necessary to possibly win.

SU will no doubt be on the losing end of some bad calls at Cameron in a couple weeks, so no sympathy from me.
 

8slim

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And yeah, that replay, if SU got whistled for that I'd be furious. That's all ball and *maybe* the slightest graze on the follow through. Maybe.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Jimmy B should get an honorary title for recruiting ballers to come play in the worst weather outside the peak of Mount Washington.

The Jimmy-Coach K thing really illuminated that. Both great coaches, but one recruits kids to South Saskatchewan.
 

Rossox

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ivanvamp said:
Um. Trevor Cooney.

So, yeah.
Yeah, he carried this team last night on his back. Quite a performance and much needed given the off nights from pretty much everyone else.
 

ivanvamp

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Jul 18, 2005
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When this team gets all pistons firing, look out.  They're going to be an absolute monster to deal with.
 

Bucknahs Bum Ankle

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It would be great but Cooney seems to be so streaky, I'm not sure they're ever going to put it all together for any appreciable stretch of games.  Also they have that tendency to play to the level of their competition.  Makes for some exciting games, but I'm not sure how long they can keep it up.  I keep expecting a true let down game and think the 1 ranking might just be the kiss of death.  Regardless, it's been an amazing run!
 

LeoCarrillo

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Bucknahs Bum Ankle said:
It would be great but Cooney seems to be so streaky, I'm not sure they're ever going to put it all together for any appreciable stretch of games. Also they have that tendency to play to the level of their competition. Makes for some exciting games, but I'm not sure how long they can keep it up. I keep expecting a true let down game and think the 1 ranking might just be the kiss of death. Regardless, it's been an amazing run!
Rakeem Christmas swats your negativity!

I don't think they play down to the level of their opponents. I just think the D is phenomenal and the O is so-so to decent. Makes for low-scoring 6-10 point wins.

A blowout would be nice, but a lot of these wins seem like a soccer match that ends 1-0 but wasn't really in doubt because of the winning team's dominance on D.

And Fair had to have been hungover still, right? Not metaphorically, the real kind.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Also, Jimmy seems very deliberate in running down the clock at the end of games. Say, up 6 or 7 with 2:00 left. Ennis holds it till single-digit seconds and drives, maybe kicks. They're not getting the best shot possible, but obviously the philosophy values time killing and trust in the D.

It's leading to a lot of games staying right around that 6 or 7 margin over the final couple minutes after Cuse hits the brakes. Or if the opponent hits a 3 or two and Cuse misses a free throw or two, a 9-point lead will go to say 5. Anyway, they're intentionally gliding in on a lot of these wins while killing the clock, FWIW.
 

DukeSox

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LeoCarrillo said:
Also, Jimmy seems very deliberate in running down the clock at the end of games. Say, up 6 or 7 with 2:00 left. Ennis holds it till single-digit seconds and drives, maybe kicks. They're not getting the best shot possible, but obviously the philosophy values time killing and trust in the D.

It's leading to a lot of games staying right around that 6 or 7 margin over the final couple minutes after Cuse hits the brakes. Or if the opponent hits a 3 or two and Cuse misses a free throw or two, a 9-point lead will go to say 5. Anyway, they're intentionally gliding in on a lot of these wins while killing the clock, FWIW.
Is this something new for JB, or has he always done it?
 
Because this is Coach K 101, curious if has begun using it more after working closely with K recently, or if you're just pointing out what he's always done.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Not sure. Lefty may have a better sense of the timeline of clock killing.

I've just noticed that he's slowing it up a lot down the stretch against teams he's confident they can stop. Part of this is likely that Ennis can generate something decent with the clock down under 10.

And as Bilas pointed out, if they're up late by say 6, on defense the guards come out to deny a 3 and they'll take their chances on something inside.

Also, because of their athleticism, they're in the double-bonus a lot late so I'm sure Jimmy is factoring in at least 1 point per trip to the line, if not 2.

Maybe it's not that revolutionary, but it seems this year he's very aware of letting 10-point leads become 6-point wins while killing clock.
 

Bucknahs Bum Ankle

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ivanvamp said:
22-0, 9-0 in the ACC, average margin of victory, 11.9 points.
 
It's been incredible!  But their average margin of victory in the ACC is 9.1 and that includes two blowouts (20 and 12 points) against a terrible VT team.  The 11.9 includes the likes of Cornell, Fordham, Colgate, Binghamton, and High Point.  Plus they almost blew one against St. Francis.  In general, they aren't really blowing away any decent teams.  I hope they can keep it up, but was just pointing out that the thought they can put it all together and become this unstoppable powerhouse is probably a little misguided.
 
Edit:  Also I tend to get a little pessimistic when things are going well.  You just don't typically see teams hang on the number 1 ranking for very long.
 

The Filthy One

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Bucknahs Bum Ankle said:
 
It's been incredible!  But their average margin of victory in the ACC is 9.1 and that includes two blowouts (20 and 12 points) against a terrible VT team.  The 11.9 includes the likes of Cornell, Fordham, Colgate, Binghamton, and High Point.  Plus they almost blew one against St. Francis.  In general, they aren't really blowing away any decent teams.  I hope they can keep it up, but was just pointing out that the thought they can put it all together and become this unstoppable powerhouse is probably a little misguided.
 
Edit:  Also I tend to get a little pessimistic when things are going well.  You just don't typically see teams hang on the number 1 ranking for very long.
 
They did beat Villanova by 16 and Baylor by 17, both ranked teams. But they are not good enough offensively to blow out very good teams on a consistent basis. I think they'll lose a few down the backstretch. The big question is going to be how they play in the ACC tournament. They have the inside track to being a 1-seed in the East, but probably realistically need to win at least 1 of the @PITT, @DUKE, and @UVA games to lock it down. I think they can lose two of those (as long as they don't get blown out of the building) and still make a great case to be the #1 seed in the East.
 
And man, they really need the 6 days they are about to get off. 
 

LeftyTG

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DukeSox said:
Is this something new for JB, or has he always done it?
 
Because this is Coach K 101, curious if has begun using it more after working closely with K recently, or if you're just pointing out what he's always done.
 
 
LeoCarrillo said:
Not sure. Lefty may have a better sense of the timeline of clock killing.

I've just noticed that he's slowing it up a lot down the stretch against teams he's confident they can stop. Part of this is likely that Ennis can generate something decent with the clock down under 10.

And as Bilas pointed out, if they're up late by say 6, on defense the guards come out to deny a 3 and they'll take their chances on something inside.

Also, because of their athleticism, they're in the double-bonus a lot late so I'm sure Jimmy is factoring in at least 1 point per trip to the line, if not 2.

Maybe it's not that revolutionary, but it seems this year he's very aware of letting 10-point leads become 6-point wins while killing clock.
He's always done it, and for as long as he's done it Syracuse fans have complained about it (not saying anyone here is doing so).  It's right up there with "Why didn't Boeheim play man to man there" and "Why doesn't Boeheim play more guys" in the pantheon of Syracuse fan complaints.  I've been watching Syracuse games with my father since the mid 80's and his blood pressure still goes up about 30 points the last 2 minutes of every game when Syracuse inevitably goes into slow down mode.  For the record, I like the strategy and have no problem with how Syracuse likes to take the air out of the ball.  Depending on the team and game (and score obviously) sometimes Boeheim will start taking the air out of the ball at the 6:00 minute mark.  That feels a bit excessive to me and it seems to take the team out of its offensive rhythm.  But in the last 2-3 minutes?  I think it pays dividends.  I don't have the numbers to back it up, but my subjective sense watching almost every game all these years is that Syracuse is very good at holding onto leads.  I'd also add that Syracuse's trademark poor foul shooting also tends to have a depressing effect on margin of victory, as you can almost always count on Syracuse missing free throws down the stretch.
 
The funny thing about Syracuse this year is that they've been fortunate a few times the way poor games have been staggered.  Cooney has been just awful a few times this year, but Syracuse managed to squeak through (the first Miami game comes to mind).  There have been at least a few times this season where the team just flat couldn't get the ball in the basket, but Cooney was lighting up 3's, like the Notre Dame game, or Ennis just took over down the stretch.  At the same time, Saturday against Duke excepted, the team hasn't really been hitting on all cylinders offensively.  With Christmas showing signs of having a semi-reliable baby hook in the post, Syracuse can put out 5 offensively competent and efficient players.  These last two games are interesting in that, for the Duke game, the front court carried the team offensively with the back court only chipping in.  In the Notre Dame game, it was the back court (Cooney, really), or the Cal game (where Cooney went for 23 and Ennis went from 28) while the front court only chipped in.  I think that flexibility makes Syracuse fairly unique and helps them survive games where particular players are really struggling (the way Cooney and Fair, especially, have done in particular games this year).
 

bsj

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Someone (cant remember who) made a very good point when it comes to the Orange hoops team this year. 
 
Because of their style, for better or worse, they are never going to be the type of team who can just blow away a team, even if they are significantly better. They are quick, efficient, and strong defensively, but if even one guy gets hot from 3, the zone will always leave teams in games. 
 
What this means is that Syracuse is absolutely capable of winning the national title, but Syracuse fans will ge on the receiving end of heart attacks every single step of the way.
 

LeftyTG

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bsj said:
Someone (cant remember who) made a very good point when it comes to the Orange hoops team this year. 
 
Because of their style, for better or worse, they are never going to be the type of team who can just blow away a team, even if they are significantly better. They are quick, efficient, and strong defensively, but if even one guy gets hot from 3, the zone will always leave teams in games. 
 
What this means is that Syracuse is absolutely capable of winning the national title, but Syracuse fans will ge on the receiving end of heart attacks every single step of the way.
I don't agree with the bolded.  I mean, if any guy gets hot from 3 against any defense, that hurts the team on defense.  Guys get hot against man to man defenses too.  One of the long standing misconceptions about Syracuse's zone is that you beat it by shooting over it.  You could argue that Syracuse's defensive success is predicated on that misconception.  Syracuse is almost always at or near the top of the conference in 3 point percentage defense.  Syracuse, in my opinion, excels at ID'ing a shooting and shading the defense in that direction and will make adjustments in the zone to pay attention to a hot shooter.  The zone will target a shooter and force him to shoot further and further away from the basket, and before you know it the guy who was 3/3 in 3's is now 3/8.  Now Syracuse will be vulnerable if multiple guys get it going from deep, as they can't give particular attention to everyone (see the Duke game), but that holds true for any defense.
 
Syracuse (in my opinion) is playing close games this year because teams have figured out that it is effective to slow down on offense, make the zone move and slide through the shot clock, and work it around for a shot.  Syracuse is also playing at a slower pace on offense and isn't pushing the ball in transition as much this year (I'm sure the lack of a viable backup for Ennis is a big factor in that).  Fewer possessions = fewer chances to score = less ability to separate.  At least according to my theory.
 

LeoCarrillo

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On the last point, Lefty, they aren't running as much. And aside from two games all year, Cornell and ND, I think that has suppressed Cooney's numbers. So be it.

But I wonder if their slower pace is occurring naturally or if Jimmy wants to slow it down. Or both.

Factors:
1. Ennis has no backup. But he's also generally cautious. I wonder if Jimmy is saving his legs, or he tires somewhat, or maybe that's just not his style to run roughshod.

2. The only other guy you'd want pushing the rock is Cooney, as far as having a handle, but you don't because he needs to be the guy to spot up on a delayed kick out for the 3. So, it's Ennis.

3. Thin bench. Jimmy doesn't want to wear down his six and a half regular players (Gbinije being a half until he proves trustworthy).

4. No pressing to create turnovers. I assume for same reasons of thin bench and player minutes. Plus, other than against Villanova, they've led most games.

5. Fewer steals up top. Granted, MCW and Triche were a tough act to follow.

6. Slow pace helps shape it into a half-court battle, which with our zone and killer front line is an advantage.

My guess that the lack of transition points is both organic, in Ennis' cautious floor generalship, and calculated by Boeheim as this particular team's best chance for success. They do pound the O glass in the halfcourt.

I trust Jimmy. But just imagine the highlight reel on Grant's dunks if this team was dedicated to pushing the ball. As it is, he racks up putback slams in the halfcourt.
 

LeftyTG

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LeoCarrillo said:
On the last point, Lefty, they aren't running as much. And aside from two games all year, Cornell and ND, I think that has suppressed Cooney's numbers. So be it.

But I wonder if their slower pace is occurring naturally or if Jimmy wants to slow it down. Or both.

Factors:
1. Ennis has no backup. But he's also generally cautious. I wonder if Jimmy is saving his legs, or he tires somewhat, or maybe that's just not his style to run roughshod.

2. The only other guy you'd want pushing the rock is Cooney, as far as having a handle, but you don't because he needs to be the guy to spot up on a delayed kick out for the 3. So, it's Ennis.

3. Thin bench. Jimmy doesn't want to wear down his six and a half regular players (Gbinije being a half until he proves trustworthy).

4. No pressing to create turnovers. I assume for same reasons of thin bench and player minutes. Plus, other than against Villanova, they've led most games.

5. Fewer steals up top. Granted, MCW and Triche were a tough act to follow.

6. Slow pace helps shape it into a half-court battle, which with our zone and killer front line is an advantage.

My guess that the lack of transition points is both organic, in Ennis' cautious floor generalship, and calculated by Boeheim as this particular team's best chance for success. They do pound the O glass in the halfcourt.

I trust Jimmy. But just imagine the highlight reel on Grant's dunks if this team was dedicated to pushing the ball. As it is, he racks up putback slams in the halfcourt.
good post, I'm in line with your thinking here.  I live in constant fear of if/when Ennis hits a wall physically.  After having dominant teams lose key players heading into the tournament (Onuaku and Melo, respectively), I'm irrationally paranoid about Ennis.  
 

Rossox

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LeoCarrillo said:
On the last point, Lefty, they aren't running as much. And aside from two games all year, Cornell and ND, I think that has suppressed Cooney's numbers. So be it.

But I wonder if their slower pace is occurring naturally or if Jimmy wants to slow it down. Or both.

Factors:
1. Ennis has no backup. But he's also generally cautious. I wonder if Jimmy is saving his legs, or he tires somewhat, or maybe that's just not his style to run roughshod.

2. The only other guy you'd want pushing the rock is Cooney, as far as having a handle, but you don't because he needs to be the guy to spot up on a delayed kick out for the 3. So, it's Ennis.

3. Thin bench. Jimmy doesn't want to wear down his six and a half regular players (Gbinije being a half until he proves trustworthy).

4. No pressing to create turnovers. I assume for same reasons of thin bench and player minutes. Plus, other than against Villanova, they've led most games.

5. Fewer steals up top. Granted, MCW and Triche were a tough act to follow.

6. Slow pace helps shape it into a half-court battle, which with our zone and killer front line is an advantage.

My guess that the lack of transition points is both organic, in Ennis' cautious floor generalship, and calculated by Boeheim as this particular team's best chance for success. They do pound the O glass in the halfcourt.

I trust Jimmy. But just imagine the highlight reel on Grant's dunks if this team was dedicated to pushing the ball. As it is, he racks up putback slams in the halfcourt.
 
No question IMO this is a direct result of #1 and #3 above. We knew coming into this year that guard depth would be an issue. Nothing has changed. You take Ennis off of this team and it's completely different script to the season. A quicker pace means tired legs. Tired legs equals being out of position on D, which leads to silly fouls. We cannot under any circumstances have Ennis in foul trouble.
 

ivanvamp

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Rossox said:
 
No question IMO this is a direct result of #1 and #3 above. We knew coming into this year that guard depth would be an issue. Nothing has changed. You take Ennis off of this team and it's completely different script to the season. A quicker pace means tired legs. Tired legs equals being out of position on D, which leads to silly fouls. We cannot under any circumstances have Ennis in foul trouble.
 
Or get hurt, as Lefty brought up.  I've no doubt that SU would have a couple more final four appearances over the past few years had they not lost Fab and Onuaku.  I know Fab's wasn't an injury, but still.  They need this group to stay healthy and together, and they can do some real damage.
 

Rossox

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Health is a concern with every team. You can't really predict that.

But yeah, the Onuaku injury still hurts. That team was positioned very well to win it all. No way they lose to Butler with him healthy. And no way the '12 team beats Kentucky even with Fab. But he cost them a Final 4 bid.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Rossox said:
Health is a concern with every team. You can't really predict that.

But yeah, the Onuaku injury still hurts. That team was positioned very well to win it all. No way they lose to Butler with him healthy. And no way the '12 team beats Kentucky even with Fab. But he cost them a Final 4 bid.
 
I was sitting about 10 rows up at MSG when Onuaku's leg gave out in the Big East tournament against G'Town. We'd just gotten the No. 1 ranking in all of the NCAA about a week earlier with a spectacular dunk show at the Dome against Nova. And when Onuaka was helped off the court into the tunnel, I wanted to vomit.
 
That Wesley Johnson team had like a 1 in 2.5 chance to win it all. Dammmmmit.
 

benhogan

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Oh wow, didn't realize their was an Cuse thread on this site. Nice.
 
Sox and Syracuse hoops are my 2 favorite sports teams.
 
For better or worse, I'll be chiming in here.
 
Go Orange!
 

ivanvamp

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benhogan said:
Oh wow, didn't realize their was an Cuse thread on this site. Nice.
 
Sox and Syracuse hoops are my 2 favorite sports teams.
 
For better or worse, I'll be chiming in here.
 
Go Orange!
Welcome. How many of us are actual SU grads? Not that you are any less of a fan if you aren't, but I'm just curious. I am, for one.