2013-2014 Syracuse Basketball: Same Zone, New Conference
- Thread starter LeftyTG
- Start date
Agree with the comment about the back court killing us last night. Ennis looks worn down to me. He didn't just miss shots last night, he missed them by a mile.
I don't want to turn this into a discussion about NBA prospects, but I'd be shocked if Cooney developed into a legitimate NBA prospect. I think he could become an excellent college player (he isn't even that yet), and that could land him a shot - but that's about the best I see for him.
I don't want to turn this into a discussion about NBA prospects, but I'd be shocked if Cooney developed into a legitimate NBA prospect. I think he could become an excellent college player (he isn't even that yet), and that could land him a shot - but that's about the best I see for him.
FWIW, a really good article about the suddenly awesome Duke-Syracuse rivalry:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20140223/syracuse-duke-jim-boeheim-jabari-parker/?eref=sihp
I think the author (Jeff Benedict) is spot-on.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20140223/syracuse-duke-jim-boeheim-jabari-parker/?eref=sihp
I think the author (Jeff Benedict) is spot-on.
LeoCarrillo said:
Yes, getting the #1 seed in the East should be the goal right now. Tonight is no gimme but the UVA game on Sat is the big one. Go 2-0 this week and a decent showing in the conference tourney should lock that up. But nothing is a given right now. Heck, I just want to see this team play a complete game for 40 minutes and get some solid production from the starting backcourt.
I think they could possibly lose two more and still get the #1 seed, Leo. Depends, of course, on what teams behind us do.
Personally, I think it's hilarious that SU loses TWICE in the same week, including to Duke, and yet Duke remains behind SU in the poll. I thought for sure they'd go from 5 to 4, and SU would drop to like #6.
Personally, I think it's hilarious that SU loses TWICE in the same week, including to Duke, and yet Duke remains behind SU in the poll. I thought for sure they'd go from 5 to 4, and SU would drop to like #6.
Really ivanvamp?ivanvamp said:
Not that polls matter all that much, but 6 losses vs. 2 losses? Duke has 2 double digit losses this year (one of which is Clemson and they stink). UNC handed Duke their lunch this week. Both Cuse losses were one possession games…and Duke has had a couple of tight/lucky wins (Maryland and UVM @ home)
Syracuse is having a better overall season then Duke.
There were close/tight wins like St Francis, Pitt #1, St Johns, ND, Miami where the games were tight in the 2nd half, but they weren't final possession wins like Duke #1, Pitt #2 and NC State wins. I think there is a difference. The final possession wins are 'coin-toss' games where anything can happen, with one possession deciding the game and the shot clock off. We are 3-2 in those games. I feel like the way teams approach us, milk the clock/shorten the game, we should have plenty of low scoring 5 pt wins in the low 50s. But I don't think they should be classified like the "last possession" wins or be considered 'a negative'.ivanvamp said:
On another note, I'm not all that disappointed in the way we competed at Duke. We were down 6 late and once again exhibited 'late game skills' clawing our way back and giving ourselves a chance to win with the shot clock off. A judgement call that could have been a block on Hood, a no call, or a charge on Fair. Obviously didn't go our way, but dust ourselves off and send Maryland packing to the BIG10.
Glad to see Keita (30 mins.) getting back into the mix and Gbinijie (27 mins.) taking up the slack left by Grant.
What's up with Cooney? Why's he missing a free throw late like that?
What's up with Cooney? Why's he missing a free throw late like that?
And nice to see Boeheim not abiding Turgeon's grousing about the non-call at the end. Another win that ended up closer than it needed to be, but largely the team answered the bell in another hostile arena 48 hours after a nut punch loss. Now let's rest up and put those Cadavers in their place. Youveeay? C'mon.
I hated their last possession after the time out. I admit to not being able to watch them much this season (we booted cable and I no longer get ESPN), but is that how a Fair isolation play has looked all season? Yikes.I was concerned about the settling for not-so-good jumpers in the last few minutes, not just the last possession. Man, if they had just one big (even Melo with an inch or two less, or Onuaku with less skill) body inside this season, they'd be unstoppable. They all seemed tentative on their shots late in the game - front rim and the in and out thing, which usually points to lack of follow through because of getting back on D before being done with the shooting stroke. And I have no idea, NO IDEA, how Cooney comes up so small on that free throw. Dude, your job is 3 pointers and hitting a damn foul shoot late. If you're not doing the 1st you MUST do the 2nd. Should have been a 10 point win, and instead it was a crap your pants near miss at the end. I hope this game gets them some confidence for UVA and the ACC tournament. Good to get in the W column again, and in the end, a win is a win on the road late in the ACC (much like the Big East used to be). But it was stressful.
Syracuse is gassed right now. The lack of depth has finally caught up to them. The stat about the minutes Fair has played over the last 12 games was pretty telling and the lack of legs is why they're settling for jump shots so late in games.
They were up 12 w/ 6 minutes to go last night against a pretty mediocre team. Yeah, they won but it shouldn't have been close. Hoping the 4 days of rest before Saturday helps.
They were up 12 w/ 6 minutes to go last night against a pretty mediocre team. Yeah, they won but it shouldn't have been close. Hoping the 4 days of rest before Saturday helps.
The break will undoubtedly help. Let's not forget that Grant was hurting and unavailable all second half, and he's one of their most important players. This team is not deep at all and so any injury or foul trouble could be very problematic. If they enter the ACC tourney with, for them, a full complement of players (Ennis, Cooney, Fair, Grant, Christmas, Keita, Gbinije, and Roberson as a spare), they should be ok. That group is as good as any.
That said, here's the keys from here on out:
1. Cooney needs to find his stroke again. He's a total game-changer for them when he's on.
2. Health. Grant needs to get healthy, and they need to stay healthy.
3. Ennis and Fair need to lead the way down the stretch of these games.
Otherwise, they're doing very well. Obviously - their record, despite some close shaves - is sterling. In a very tough conference.
That said, here's the keys from here on out:
1. Cooney needs to find his stroke again. He's a total game-changer for them when he's on.
2. Health. Grant needs to get healthy, and they need to stay healthy.
3. Ennis and Fair need to lead the way down the stretch of these games.
Otherwise, they're doing very well. Obviously - their record, despite some close shaves - is sterling. In a very tough conference.
Holy shit. The coaches poll has Louisville -- LOUISVILLE!!!??!?!? -- at #4. And ahead of Syracuse at that.
#27 in RPI, playing in an overrated top-heavy conference, 4-4 vs the Top 50 (Cuse is 8-1), 1-0 vs 51-100 (Cuse is 6-0).
More proof that Division I college basketball coaches, on the whole, are a bunch of moronic buffoons.
#27 in RPI, playing in an overrated top-heavy conference, 4-4 vs the Top 50 (Cuse is 8-1), 1-0 vs 51-100 (Cuse is 6-0).
More proof that Division I college basketball coaches, on the whole, are a bunch of moronic buffoons.
SU's défense is playing very well lately.
vs. ND - 55 points, 40.8%
vs. Clemson - 44 points, 34.1%, 13 TO
vs. Pitt - 56 points, 36.0%, 11 TO
vs. NC State - 55 points, 39.3%, 10 TO
vs. BC - 62 points (just 50 at the end of regulation); 42.9%, 17 TO
vs. Duke - 66 points (Duke averages 80.1 ppg), 47.9%, 11 TO
vs. Maryland - 55 points, 35.0%, 18 TO
The defense is doing its job. The offense is where the improvement needs to be.
vs. ND - 55 points, 40.8%
vs. Clemson - 44 points, 34.1%, 13 TO
vs. Pitt - 56 points, 36.0%, 11 TO
vs. NC State - 55 points, 39.3%, 10 TO
vs. BC - 62 points (just 50 at the end of regulation); 42.9%, 17 TO
vs. Duke - 66 points (Duke averages 80.1 ppg), 47.9%, 11 TO
vs. Maryland - 55 points, 35.0%, 18 TO
The defense is doing its job. The offense is where the improvement needs to be.
I don't question their defense, ever. But as Ian points out above, Fair and/or Ennis need to be "the guy" down the stretches of games, and it does't feel like either one - right now, anyway - wants to take that role by the horns and make it his own. The exhaustion factor and lack of Grant last night probably did play into those shots that both Fair and Ennis (and Cooney) were settling for/forcing during the last few minutes. I think since I've only seen them about 4 times all year, when I do see them in a game like last night, it makes me the nervous because I can see all oft their mistakes as opposed to reading about them/hearing about them.
I just texted a friend an hour ago for it! Not sure why i waited so damn long to think of that.DukeSox said:
I thought Roberson gave us decent energy (didn't hurt us) off the bench last night. Wish Jimmy would give this kid 2-3 minutes a half, which equates to roughly 2-3 possessions/half in these slowed down games. Let him bang the offensive boards, set picks, just no shots outside the paint.
Seven players isn't enough, the fatigue is showing, and Grant's back injury will probably linger all season long. We're going to need Roberson come tourney time, and he won't be ready if he doesn't get some minutes now.
And don't bother sending me a note about Jimmy being a HOF coach, or that he likes to play a short bench. It was a short bench when Dajuan Coleman was playing, when he went down, he needed to be replaced.
Seven players isn't enough, the fatigue is showing, and Grant's back injury will probably linger all season long. We're going to need Roberson come tourney time, and he won't be ready if he doesn't get some minutes now.
And don't bother sending me a note about Jimmy being a HOF coach, or that he likes to play a short bench. It was a short bench when Dajuan Coleman was playing, when he went down, he needed to be replaced.
7 isn't necessarily a short bench, though 8 is ideal. You'd want a 3rd guard, with at least 2 of the 3 guards capable of running point. You'd want a 3rd forward and a second center. Syracuse has at times historically been able to have someone able to play both the center and back wings of the zone (Rick Jackson, Rakeem Christmas), meaning they were able to rotate through front court player and one back court player. Occasionally they have been able to have a guy flex from the top of the zone to the back (Paul Harris, Gbinije, Rautins). Their system allows for some flexibility and a short bench.benhogan said:
The problem this year is that Ennis, Fair, and Grant hardly ever come out. Even when Coleman was healthy, he was a token start and then Grant was almost immediately brought in. It is true that Coleman's presence and token minutes would bring down Grant's minutes a bit, but mostly Coleman's presence amounted to a 3 man center rotation while Fair and Grant played almost the whole game.
I've been frustrated all year that Roberson hasn't gotten more run. I think he is roughly equal to where Fair was as a freshman in that Roberson is athletic, energetic, has a willingness to mix it up on the boards. Fair was special as a freshman because he had this freakish nose for the ball and a knack for being at exactly the right place at the right time. Roberson isn't quite at the same point, but I think he could have been worked in the way Grant was last year.
Syracuse, for being such a good team, has played in an unusual amount of fairly close games. They blew out Villanova on Dec 28th, and since then, over 16 games they have only one game that could fairly be called a blowout - VT on Jan 7th. There are a handful of 10 point victories, but having watched most of those I can tell you they were games Syracuse pulled away from the opposition at the very end. I think Boeheim would have loved to have given the freshmen more run, but when push comes to shove he wants to win the game over longer term development. He simply doesn't trust freshmen (which just goes to show how amazing Ennis really is). That's his way and he has 900+ wins to show for it. I just think this season has been a bit of an anomaly, and at this point things are the way they are and he's just going to let it ride.
Grant's been taking a beating and now his back is sore. Ennis is a freshman who has never had to handle a minutes load like this. Fair is a focal point of the defense and is having to work harder to get looks. It is natural and foreseeable these guys would be wearing down. I just hope they can push through, or else this team will be ripe for an earlier than expected tournament exit.
We're pretty much in agreement, except I still think the idea of going with 7 is a short bench, even if you have versatile players.LeftyTG said:
We are a game injury and foul trouble away from a player, that hasn't played in weeks, appearing in a 'high leverage' end of the game situation.
Plus playing 7 means major wear and tear on our key players (as you stated clearly). I know Jimmy thinks these kids have no trouble playing 40 minutes, he has said it dozens of times over the years, but the scrutiny these players are under this season (social media, ESPN road games 48hrs apart, NCAA rules/investigations always lurking, etc) accompanied by a high profile #1 ranking and 25-0 start should be taken into account.
FREE TYLER ROBERSON
Virginia -4 according to Vegas.
Hmmm, I'm starting to feel confident about playing Virginia. Just read an article on ESPN about the Cavs being one of the most patient teams, on offense, in the country. Teams like that, over the years, have a tendency to pass around the perimeter of the 2-3 and not attack the middle of the zone initially. Patience is probably what they do against most man defenses and they wait for a breakdown, the problem with that strategy vs. the 2-3 is Cuse doesn't breakdown. Yes, if you get dribble penetration and kick out OR hit the big man at the FT line and he takes it to the hole and dishes to a cutting wing man thats effective (Louisville game plan). But teams that are conditioned to staying patient on the perimeter and looking for a breakdown really struggle (see Indiana in 2013 NCAA tournament).
I'm starting to like our chances tomorrow.
Hmmm, I'm starting to feel confident about playing Virginia. Just read an article on ESPN about the Cavs being one of the most patient teams, on offense, in the country. Teams like that, over the years, have a tendency to pass around the perimeter of the 2-3 and not attack the middle of the zone initially. Patience is probably what they do against most man defenses and they wait for a breakdown, the problem with that strategy vs. the 2-3 is Cuse doesn't breakdown. Yes, if you get dribble penetration and kick out OR hit the big man at the FT line and he takes it to the hole and dishes to a cutting wing man thats effective (Louisville game plan). But teams that are conditioned to staying patient on the perimeter and looking for a breakdown really struggle (see Indiana in 2013 NCAA tournament).
I'm starting to like our chances tomorrow.
I disagree with this, to an extent. Patient teams with no plan of attack will struggle. That was Indiana last year. Crean was just befuddled. But part of what makes the Syracuse zone so effective year after year is that it baits impatient teams into unwise 3 pointers. Any team with a plan of attack against the zone that remains patient will be very effective. See Pitt year after year. UConn has also historically been good at this. I do disagree that the zone doesn't break down. When teams just casually pass the ball around the perimeter, of course it doesn't break down. But the zone relies on precise coordination with all five players moving in concert. Of course it breaks down from time to time. Of course, it remains to be seen if Virginia can be one of those teams that can patiently attack Syracuse.benhogan said:
Virginia is good this year and have been underrated all year due to some bad losses early in the season. Syracuse shouldn't be scared or intimidated to play them, but Virginia is a quality team. I hope the days off have helped their legs, and that Grant's back is healthy.
Big game today. A loss and the ACC is Virginia's. A win, and SU *should* end up the regular season champ - tied in the standings but with the head-to-head victory. This is where that stupid BC loss is just a kick in the groin. A needless one at that.
Really want to win this one, blow out Georgia Tech at home (we haven't had a laugher in a while), and then a nice, tidy 10-point win at Florida State to cap the regular season.
Really want to win this one, blow out Georgia Tech at home (we haven't had a laugher in a while), and then a nice, tidy 10-point win at Florida State to cap the regular season.
despite a nice run at the end, that was a pretty crappy half for Syracuse. This team is just a mess offensively. Ennis and Fair and three black holes. Teams have figured out that they can stick close to Cooney and he can't consistently make them pay (and yes, I realize he had one drive/3 point play in the first half). I feel bad for Christmas - he works hard to get good position, often does, and nobody looks for him. Grant has been useless. I suspect he is really hurting. Take away his athleticism and he doesn't have much in the way of offensive skill.
Virginia is well coached. They've been doing a good job.
Is Syracuse just getting the rookie hazing treatment, or is the refereeing in the ACC always this bad? The inconsistency - sometimes even in consecutive possessions - is just baffling to me. I was looking forward to getting out of the ruggedness of the Big East that the referees allowed, which I thought bogged down the kind of game Syracuse always wanted to play. I didn't expect this level of ineptitude in the ACC.
Virginia is well coached. They've been doing a good job.
Is Syracuse just getting the rookie hazing treatment, or is the refereeing in the ACC always this bad? The inconsistency - sometimes even in consecutive possessions - is just baffling to me. I was looking forward to getting out of the ruggedness of the Big East that the referees allowed, which I thought bogged down the kind of game Syracuse always wanted to play. I didn't expect this level of ineptitude in the ACC.
The Cavs are just bringing it right now. Tremendous D.
Dickie V with the stat of the afternoon: Cuse with 1 FG in the last 7:30. Yikes.
EDIT - Make that 1 FG in the last 10 minutes. Nothing but a Christmas layup since Cooney's three 6:05 into the half.
Dickie V with the stat of the afternoon: Cuse with 1 FG in the last 7:30. Yikes.
EDIT - Make that 1 FG in the last 10 minutes. Nothing but a Christmas layup since Cooney's three 6:05 into the half.
yah, the second half was a slaughter. In all fairness, not having Grant the entire half really hurts Syracuse. They aren't a 1 seed caliber team without Grant, and the second half showed some of that. Syracuse isn't deep and taking a future NBA first round draft pick off the floor really hurts.mabrowndog said:
he played the first half and was invisible. He couldn't move. He didn't play at all in the second half. Boeheim said he only practiced once all week. He also said they've run tests and nobody knows what is wrong with him. Of course, given Boeheim's history, I don't believe that for a second.ivanvamp said:
Man, Jimmy is snakebit with late-year injuries. Get Jerami some rest, and build some confidence in Roberson.
What would Grant coming back for say the ACC tourney give him? Like 13 days to rest the back. Maybe limit the minutes til the semis, best case.
What would Grant coming back for say the ACC tourney give him? Like 13 days to rest the back. Maybe limit the minutes til the semis, best case.
The real kick in the nuts will be that Grant ends up going pro anyway...
Hats off to Virginia (kills me to say this.) They had a plan, executed it perfectly, and barely missed a shot down the stretch.
Hats off to Virginia (kills me to say this.) They had a plan, executed it perfectly, and barely missed a shot down the stretch.
That would be the smart move Leo.LeoCarrillo said:
At this point also take down Ennis and Fair to 34-35 minutes the next few games, play Gbinije more and Roberson a lot more and prepare for the NCAA tournament. But I suspect Jimmy won't roll that way with Roberson, once you are in Jimmy's doghouse its really hard to escape, especially Freshman.
So now what? Rankings pretty much spell out with 4 Duke, 5 Virginia, 6 Villanova, 7 Syracuse that the winner of the ACC tourney gets the 1 seed in the East Region. (And games in Buffalo and NYC, which is damn nice for Cuse.)
Only truly tough game left for any of them is Duke hosts NC still.
Otherwise, unless NC or Pitt pull off an upset in the ACC Tourney, I can't see Nova leapfrogging the ACC top dog, even with a dominant run through the Big East tourney.
Only truly tough game left for any of them is Duke hosts NC still.
Otherwise, unless NC or Pitt pull off an upset in the ACC Tourney, I can't see Nova leapfrogging the ACC top dog, even with a dominant run through the Big East tourney.