1975 World Series re-watch

[jaytftwofive]

Not to wish away the greatest World Series game ever played or the historic catharsis of 2004, but I've always lamented how close the Sox were to closing out the Big Red Machine in four games . . . the second game rain delay was a momentum killer that I've always been convinced changed the outcome in spite of the fact that Lee continued after the rain stopped. The third game outcome needs no further explanation, but adding Lee's contention only reinforces that. And of course, Tiant did El Tiante things in Games 1 and 4. Add Rice and consider how history would look at the 1975 Red Sox.

I've looked at the replay it's very close but I guess he's out. And Spaceman is sure that Geronimo was out and that was worse then Armbrister so I'll take his word for it.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I also am convinced the loss of Rice was huge, although it's hard to truly know. Cecil Cooper had a 0.899 OPS with 14 home runs that season for the Sox, and was 4-10 with 2 doubles in the ALCS, so his 1-19 in the Series was likely nothing more than one of those statistical anomalies that can strike any batter. Still, it's fun to look back at the pinch hitting opportunities to see if the Sox would have fared better with Cooper on the bench:

Game 2: Bernie Carbo pinch hit for Dick Drago in the bottom of the 9th and lined out.
Game 3: Carbo pinch hit for Reggie Cleveland and went yard to start the rally.
Game 5: Doug Griffin (egads) pinch hit for Jim Willoughby in the 8th and lined out. But the Sox were down 5-1 with 2 outs and 1 on, so there chances were not very good.
Game 6: Carbo pinch hit for Roger Moret in the bottom of the 8th with the Sox down 6-3. When his at bat ends, the game is tied.
Game 6: Rick Miller pinch hit for Drago in the bottom of the 11th and flew out.
Game 7: Cooper hits for Willoughby and fouls out in the bottom of the 8th, a move that forced Jim Burton in the game.
Game 7: Juan Beniquez and Bob Montgomery pinch hit for Rick Miller and Denny Doyle in the bottom of the 9th, but neither did much.

Chances are, if Rice is playing, Carbo is back to pinch hitting duty in Game 7. Again, an interesting thought experiment.

And when talking about Rice in 1975, or Tony C in 1967, one also has to recall that Ted Williams got hurt in an exhibition game leading up to the 1946 World Series. Williams did not have a single extra base hit in 30 plate appearances, after a regular season in which he had one extra base hit for every 8 plate appearances. The infamous shift had nothing to do with that.

And what gets me mad about that are these anti- Ted people saying he went 5-for 25 or 26 and he cost them and himself a ring and Musial's better because he has a ring? Stan was just as bad as Ted and went....What? 6 for 24 or 25. He had a bad series also. He's not the reason the Cards won.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I also am convinced the loss of Rice was huge, although it's hard to truly know. Cecil Cooper had a 0.899 OPS with 14 home runs that season for the Sox, and was 4-10 with 2 doubles in the ALCS, so his 1-19 in the Series was likely nothing more than one of those statistical anomalies that can strike any batter. Still, it's fun to look back at the pinch hitting opportunities to see if the Sox would have fared better with Cooper on the bench:

Game 2: Bernie Carbo pinch hit for Dick Drago in the bottom of the 9th and lined out.
Game 3: Carbo pinch hit for Reggie Cleveland and went yard to start the rally.
Game 5: Doug Griffin (egads) pinch hit for Jim Willoughby in the 8th and lined out. But the Sox were down 5-1 with 2 outs and 1 on, so there chances were not very good.
Game 6: Carbo pinch hit for Roger Moret in the bottom of the 8th with the Sox down 6-3. When his at bat ends, the game is tied.
Game 6: Rick Miller pinch hit for Drago in the bottom of the 11th and flew out.
Game 7: Cooper hits for Willoughby and fouls out in the bottom of the 8th, a move that forced Jim Burton in the game.
Game 7: Juan Beniquez and Bob Montgomery pinch hit for Rick Miller and Denny Doyle in the bottom of the 9th, but neither did much.

Chances are, if Rice is playing, Carbo is back to pinch hitting duty in Game 7. Again, an interesting thought experiment.

And when talking about Rice in 1975, or Tony C in 1967, one also has to recall that Ted Williams got hurt in an exhibition game leading up to the 1946 World Series. Williams did not have a single extra base hit in 30 plate appearances, after a regular season in which he had one extra base hit for every 8 plate appearances. The infamous shift had nothing to do with that.

On the other hand Cecil had a bad series but they NEVER!!! should have traded a young talent like that to get Scotty and Carbo back. I loved Scotty and Bernie but you don't trade young talent for veterans. One of the most underrated worst trades in our history. Oh well hindsight is 20/20.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I took a look at the 1946 World Series box scores just to see if it was possible to determine which aspect had a bigger impact on Williams' performance in that World Series, the wrist injury or the shift. I mentioned above the lack of extra base hits, on which the shift would have little impact. Also, during the regular season, Williams struck out 44 times in 672 plate appearances (once per 15.3), while drawing an AL leading 156 walks (once per 4.3 appearances) [Ed: Yes, he truly was an amazing hitter, especially when you consider he hit only 6 fewer home runs than strikeouts]. During the Series, he walked 5 times (once per 6), but also struck out 5 times. The shift cannot cause strike outs.

Looking at the game situations, there are 3 relevant games: 2, 6, and 7. The Sox won Games 1, 3, and 5, and Game 4 was a 12-3 Cardinals blowout win, but I'll look at that one just the same. And I'll (*) the at bats where the shift may have had an impact (we cannot know for sure, as ground outs happen even without the shift).

Game 2: The Sox managed only 4 hits off of Harry Brecheen in a 3-0 loss. Williams at bats: groundout (*), K, lineup to 2nd (*), foul pop out. The final out was costly, as the other DiMaggio singled to lead off the bottom of the 9th. It was also the only at bat in which a runner was on base.

Game 4: Walk, Single (run scored), groundout (*), groundout/fielder's choice. This last ground out was to 3rd, so the shift had no impact. Sox were down 7-1 by the time of Williams 3rd at bat.

Game 6: Walk to load the bases in the first inning, but was out on a subsequent GIDP, pop fly out, K, single. Sox lost 4-1.

Game 7: Deep fly out (runner on 1st), deep fly out, fly to right (runner on 1st), pop fly out. The last out was costly, as Dom DiMaggio was on 2nd, having just driven in 2 runs to tie the game. The infamous Enos Slaughter play would happen in the bottom half of the inning.

So of those 16 at bats, the shift may have had an impact on 3 of them, and it's unclear that any of those 3 outs had a significant impact on the series outcome. 3 pop fly outs, and Williams did not normally pop out. And it's reasonable to assume that at least one of those deep fly ball outs in Game 7 may have left the park had his wrist been better.

So, it was the wrist, not the shift.

And what gets me mad about these Anti-Ted people is that they blame him for losing the series because he went 5 for 25 or 26 and cost himself and his team a ring and Musial's better because he has a ring. Stan went like what 6 for 24 or 25??? He had just as bad a series as Ted. He's not the reason the Cards won.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I took a look at the 1946 World Series box scores just to see if it was possible to determine which aspect had a bigger impact on Williams' performance in that World Series, the wrist injury or the shift. I mentioned above the lack of extra base hits, on which the shift would have little impact. Also, during the regular season, Williams struck out 44 times in 672 plate appearances (once per 15.3), while drawing an AL leading 156 walks (once per 4.3 appearances) [Ed: Yes, he truly was an amazing hitter, especially when you consider he hit only 6 fewer home runs than strikeouts]. During the Series, he walked 5 times (once per 6), but also struck out 5 times. The shift cannot cause strike outs.

Looking at the game situations, there are 3 relevant games: 2, 6, and 7. The Sox won Games 1, 3, and 5, and Game 4 was a 12-3 Cardinals blowout win, but I'll look at that one just the same. And I'll (*) the at bats where the shift may have had an impact (we cannot know for sure, as ground outs happen even without the shift).

Game 2: The Sox managed only 4 hits off of Harry Brecheen in a 3-0 loss. Williams at bats: groundout (*), K, lineup to 2nd (*), foul pop out. The final out was costly, as the other DiMaggio singled to lead off the bottom of the 9th. It was also the only at bat in which a runner was on base.

Game 4: Walk, Single (run scored), groundout (*), groundout/fielder's choice. This last ground out was to 3rd, so the shift had no impact. Sox were down 7-1 by the time of Williams 3rd at bat.

Game 6: Walk to load the bases in the first inning, but was out on a subsequent GIDP, pop fly out, K, single. Sox lost 4-1.

Game 7: Deep fly out (runner on 1st), deep fly out, fly to right (runner on 1st), pop fly out. The last out was costly, as Dom DiMaggio was on 2nd, having just driven in 2 runs to tie the game. The infamous Enos Slaughter play would happen in the bottom half of the inning.

So of those 16 at bats, the shift may have had an impact on 3 of them, and it's unclear that any of those 3 outs had a significant impact on the series outcome. 3 pop fly outs, and Williams did not normally pop out. And it's reasonable to assume that at least one of those deep fly ball outs in Game 7 may have left the park had his wrist been better.

So, it was the wrist, not the shift.

Oops double post sorry. Didn't pay attention they were both you.

 

[jaytftwofive]

And didn't Curt Gowdy get fired or "replaced" because of his constant criticism of Barnett and that call?? Supposedly the Umpires told NBC to get rid of him or they would boycott?? It is true he never did baseball for NBC again??? Supposedly an AAA umpire talked to Gowdy and said it was the right call because Fisk could have tagged Armbrister and a runner is allowed to stop according to rule book??? But Gowdy never said that on the air and that infuriated Barnett and the umpires and Barnett blames Gowdy and Kubek for the death threats he got.

 

[rlsb]

And what gets me mad about these Anti-Ted people is that they blame him for losing the series because he went 5 for 25 or 26 and cost himself and his team a ring and Musial's better because he has a ring. Stan went like what 6 for 24 or 25??? He had just as bad a series as Ted. He's not the reason the Cards won.

Musial went 6 for 27 (.222). Harry Walker, Enos Slaughter and Joe Garagiola had better series. The killer was Dom DiMaggio's muscle pull sliding into second in the top of the eighth. Slaughter, as he has stated in the past would not have challenged DiMaggio's fielding acumen in the bottom of that fateful inning, but he had no problem challenging Leon Culberson's.

 

[TeddyBallgame9]

To complete the what-ifs of World Series season injuries, what would the 1986 Red Sox have done with a healthy Tom Seaver in the postseason rotation. Sure he was 41 years old, but he'd still have been a step up from Nipper as the #4 starter and maybe a better #3 than Boyd.

I’ve always felt this way. I was SOOO pumped when the Sox got Seaver for the stretch run and had convinced myself he would be The Difference, age be damned.

 

[jaytftwofive]

And I was watching on MLB that Larry Barnett was the home plate umpire in the Jefferey Maier O's-Yanks Game 1 ALCS debacle, lol. Didn't know that. Makes sense. Rich Garcia of course later admitted it was the wrong call. Obviously!!!! I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all but you know the umpires union were mad at MLB for allowing Alomar to play in the post season and not suspended the whole year because he spit in that umpires face. (That was despicable by Alomar) so I believe they were getting back at the Orioles. Just a thought. But say the O's go back to Baltimore up 2-0 instead of 1-1. If it played out like it went the Yanks would go back to New York up 3-2 and I believe they would have closed out the O's in one of those games. Hate to admit it but the Yanks were just better. They did it to a better Braves team in the WS. Damn Bobby Cox and Mark Wohlers, game 4!!!

 

[lexrageorge]

Rewatching Game 1 in parts, and it's interesting to watch the balk call against Tiant.

Apparently, the Reds were wary of Tiant's excellent pickoff move to first, and so made noise that they noticed on game film and scouting reports that Tiant often balked and got away with it. The leagues still had separate umpiring crews, and so first base umpire Nick Colosi had no real experience watching Tiant pitch. The balk call was terrible; the replay showed clearly that Tiant moved towards first. But the replay also showed how surprisingly nimble Tiant was on his feet when throwing to first.

The Reds were expected to have a big advantage of the base paths; as a team they stole 168 bases to the Red Sox 66, and were caught only 36 times, whereas the Red Sox runners were caught 58 times! Yes, Darrell Johnson did everything he could to maximize those outs on the base paths. The Sox attempted 2 steals all series: Burleson was thrown out in Game 1, and Dwight Evans got caught in a costly rundown in Game 2 while leading off of second base while Bill Lee was at bat with one out. Lee could lay down a good bunt, and so the unnecessary play negated any possibility of a productive out.

The Reds stole 9 bases, and were caught only twice. However, after Foster got caught stealing in Game 1, the Reds did not attempt any more steals against Tiant in the subsequent 2 games they faced him. Of the 9 steals, only one was of any consequence: Concepcion stole 2nd after his game tying single in Game 2, and was driven home by Griffey's double. However, it's entirely possible that Concepcion may have scored anyway on that hit.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Not to wish away the greatest World Series game ever played or the historic catharsis of 2004, but I've always lamented how close the Sox were to closing out the Big Red Machine in four games . . . the second game rain delay was a momentum killer that I've always been convinced changed the outcome in spite of the fact that Lee continued after the rain stopped. The third game outcome needs no further explanation, but adding Lee's contention only reinforces that. And of course, Tiant did El Tiante things in Games 1 and 4. Add Rice and consider how history would look at the 1975 Red Sox.

Correction. I said Concepcion but it was Geronimo who Lee said was out at third.