16 Days in January—Determining Trade Deadline Activity

HomeRunBaker

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hard no on trading Smart for Jingles

would love to see Brad target Brunson
Brunson at least serves a purpose in being able to play the 1 whereas Ingles can’t and is on the downside of his career. He’s already lost a step this year to the point of him being nothing more than a good passing stationary shooter.
 

nighthob

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Yes. I meant letting Ingles walk to create the cap space to resign Brunson. I apologize for the lack of clarity (and thanks for not assuming I was a moron, CC.)

Brunson is in the last year of his deal. Unless the Mavs intend to pay him $20 million a year (unlikely in their current situation) they need to trade him now or do a sign and trade in the offseason (which may make more sense for them). So the issue is more what other teams are going to offer and whether they think they can resign him (assuming he is traded in season). It's going to take draft equity kicked in, to be sure. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

The Celtics would need to get off the Smart (or Horford) contracts to actually have the cap space to resign Brunson since they wouldn't have his Bird rights. (And thinking about it now, I'm not even sure it's actually possible.)
Mark Cuban has never stinted at spending money and Brunson’s a 6’1” RFA. 4/80 isn’t likely in his future unless he gets it from the Mavs. As for Boston, if they traded for Brunson they’d hold his rights and wouldn’t need to get off of anyone to re-sign him. But he’s just not a realistic target for Boston.
 

SteveF

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if they traded for Brunson they’d hold his rights
Ah. That's great! (Thanks for the info.) So it's not actually completely impossible from the perspective of the cap, though I acknowledge (if disagree) with your other issues with the deal.

As for Brunson, I guess we'll see what he gets when he gets it. (Not much point in arguing when we'll know for certain in 6-7 months.)
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah I was looking at Brunson because DAL is a team I thought might want Schroder, and he's a great fit for us on paper (obviously not for DS, I just was perusing the roster). Doesn't make much sense for DAL to trade him. While they don't have his RFA rights, they do have Birds, and the cap space isn't going to be plentiful this year, only about 5 teams have practical projected cap space over 20M, and only 3 over 25M, and of those 3, two are pretty heavily invested at PG to the extent they're unlikely to make an offer DAL won't match (ORL and SAS), I think DAL should be pretty confident they can beat out any other offers for him and not grossly overpay.
 

Cesar Crespo

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What would people want from Atlanta for Smart? I said Reddish or Huerter. I can get dissenting opinions on either. To make it work salary cap wise this year, the Hawks could add Delon Wright. Following this season, Smart is owed 4/76.5m, and Huerter is owed 4/65m.

Reddish/Wright works too, but Reddish isn't signed long term. It would save the C's money next year, but after that... who knows.

Atlanta fits the bills of a team trying to win and has young players they could offer. Reddish would be a gamble and Huerter seems like a lateral move at best. Hunter would be a pretty big gamble too.

Maybe Sacramento for their pick, or in the offseason in a deal centered around Fox if the Kings decide Haliburton is the future.

I'd say maybe Memphis for Melton and filler. Melton is still somewhat young and signed for 2 more years after this. He's been all over the place shooting wise too. I wonder if maybe he's a potential target excluding Smart. Maybe they'd want to move on from Melton in favor of Tyus, so moving Melton for Schroder and filler would be a thing? A poster can dream.

Really though, that's all pretty underwhelming and banking on future development. I'd bite on a deal for Fox centered around Smart but he'd be one of my last choices for 3rd star.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Smart for Huerter changes the makeup of our team a lot. Pros and cons to that swap but I can’t imagine it happening as it’s a terrible fit for how Ime wants to play.
 

benhogan

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What would people want from Atlanta for Smart? I said Reddish or Huerter. I can get dissenting opinions on either. To make it work salary cap wise this year, the Hawks could add Delon Wright. Following this season, Smart is owed 4/76.5m, and Huerter is owed 4/65m.

Reddish/Wright works too, but Reddish isn't signed long term. It would save the C's money next year, but after that... who knows.

Atlanta fits the bills of a team trying to win and has young players they could offer. Reddish would be a gamble and Huerter seems like a lateral move at best. Hunter would be a pretty big gamble too.

Maybe Sacramento for their pick, or in the offseason in a deal centered around Fox if the Kings decide Haliburton is the future.

I'd say maybe Memphis for Melton but Melton and filler. Melton is still somewhat young and signed for 2 more years after this. He's been all over the place shooting wise too. I wonder if maybe he's a potential target excluding Smart. Maybe they'd want to move on from Melton in favor of Tyus, so moving Melton for Schroder and filler would be a thing? A poster can dream.

Really though, that's all pretty underwhelming and banking on future development. I'd bite on a deal for Fox centered around Smart but he'd be one of my last choices for 3rd star.
Just keep Smart until the summer, then Brad can investigate using him as ballast+ for a "future" 3rd-star player (don't see them getting a full-fledged star like Beal or Lilliard).

JRich is a poor man's Smart, so Marcus isn't completely irreplaceable.

Then again maybe Brad moves JRich instead (cheap, good D and can shoot)?

Interesting players that could potentially be available: PJ Washington, Monte Morris
 

sezwho

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What would people want from Atlanta for Smart? I said Reddish or Huerter. I can get dissenting opinions on either. To make it work salary cap wise this year, the Hawks could add Delon Wright. Following this season, Smart is owed 4/76.5m, and Huerter is owed 4/65m.

Reddish/Wright works too, but Reddish isn't signed long term. It would save the C's money next year, but after that... who knows.

Atlanta fits the bills of a team trying to win and has young players they could offer. Reddish would be a gamble and Huerter seems like a lateral move at best. Hunter would be a pretty big gamble too.

Maybe Sacramento for their pick, or in the offseason in a deal centered around Fox if the Kings decide Haliburton is the future.

I'd say maybe Memphis for Melton but Melton and filler. Melton is still somewhat young and signed for 2 more years after this. He's been all over the place shooting wise too. I wonder if maybe he's a potential target excluding Smart. Maybe they'd want to move on from Melton in favor of Tyus, so moving Melton for Schroder and filler would be a thing? A poster can dream.

Really though, that's all pretty underwhelming and banking on future development. I'd bite on a deal for Fox centered around Smart but he'd be one of my last choices for 3rd star.
Huerter is also interesting to me, as are Melton and Fox to some degree, but either way its got to be a player specifically aligned to help the Js.. I consider picks only if I'm confident and committed its part in a larger move that increases talent next year, again specifically aligned to help the Js.

If I've read spotrac properly, we have JB for 2 more and JT for 3 plus his player option. Drafting our way to success, even if we get the right guy next year, significantly increases the odds we suck during the window they are decide whether to resign.
 

Cellar-Door

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What would people want from Atlanta for Smart? I said Reddish or Huerter. I can get dissenting opinions on either. To make it work salary cap wise this year, the Hawks could add Delon Wright. Following this season, Smart is owed 4/76.5m, and Huerter is owed 4/65m.

Reddish/Wright works too, but Reddish isn't signed long term. It would save the C's money next year, but after that... who knows.

Atlanta fits the bills of a team trying to win and has young players they could offer. Reddish would be a gamble and Huerter seems like a lateral move at best. Hunter would be a pretty big gamble too.

Maybe Sacramento for their pick, or in the offseason in a deal centered around Fox if the Kings decide Haliburton is the future.

I'd say maybe Memphis for Melton and filler. Melton is still somewhat young and signed for 2 more years after this. He's been all over the place shooting wise too. I wonder if maybe he's a potential target excluding Smart. Maybe they'd want to move on from Melton in favor of Tyus, so moving Melton for Schroder and filler would be a thing? A poster can dream.

Really though, that's all pretty underwhelming and banking on future development. I'd bite on a deal for Fox centered around Smart but he'd be one of my last choices for 3rd star.
Atlanta is a weird fit for Boston because I think a heavy part of any trade package they send out for a player is gonna be picks, and I don't think the Celtics are interested in that unless it's to feed the picks into a bigger deal.

Maybe if you think Hunter's 2020-21 D is for real you want him in a deal?

Hollinger and Kirschner (Athletic's Hawks guy) were discussing trade options for them and Hollinger threw out Dieng/Wright and at least 1 first with OKC getting something to eat some/all of the salary. Kirschner thought it was very light and ATL would easily do it.

To me, Smart to ATL feels like it's either part of a huge deal, or it's the deal you make after you made a huge deal (like a Jaylen deal).
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Isn’t Horford not guaranteed for next year, wasn’t that the primary appeal of taking in his deal?

Is there a deal out there, moving Horford for a player signed longer term making similar money?

Buddy Hield? Not so sure that’s a great idea but something like that?
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Maybe if you think Hunter's 2020-21 D is for real you want him in a deal?
Hunter’s 2020-21 D was certainly for real. Kid is an athletic freak……the question is if he’ll have a longer career than Brandon Roy or not with his knees.
 

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Hunter’s 2020-21 D was certainly for real. Kid is an athletic freak……the question is if he’ll have a longer career than Brandon Roy or not with his knees.
It's not just his knees. He missed one NCAA tournament with a broken wrist---the one in which Virginia became the first No. 1 seed to lose to a No. 16 seed---and broke his other wrist this season. He missed one of his high school seasons with a broken leg.
 

Cellar-Door

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https://theathletic.com/3060724/2022/01/10/update-on-ben-simmons-trade-talks-frustrated-hawks-star-john-collins-a-possible-match-nba-news-and-notes/

Shams trade piece on The Athletic.
Only Celtics' news in there is:
1. The Celtics have told teams they won't trade Tatum or Brown, but open for business on everyone else
2. Celtics inquired on Simmons at one point, but no interest in sending out Brown.

Other stuff... John Collins unhappy with his role in ATL, Simmons trade in neutral as he works out, meets with mental health professionals (and is collecting his checks).
 

benhogan

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https://theathletic.com/3060724/2022/01/10/update-on-ben-simmons-trade-talks-frustrated-hawks-star-john-collins-a-possible-match-nba-news-and-notes/

Shams trade piece on The Athletic.
Only Celtics' news in there is:
1. The Celtics have told teams they won't trade Tatum or Brown, but open for business on everyone else
2. Celtics inquired on Simmons at one point, but no interest in sending out Brown.

Other stuff... John Collins unhappy with his role in ATL, Simmons trade in neutral as he works out, meets with mental health professionals (and is collecting his checks).
If Morey is offered Collins/Reddish for Simmons they should take it.

Doc has done very well this season w/out Ben and could jump up to contender status by adding those 2.
 

Cellar-Door

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If Morey is offered Collins/Reddish for Simmons they should take it.

Doc has done very well this season w/out Ben and could jump up to contender status by adding those 2.
problem with it is probably fit. Harris really can't play 3 effectively anymore, neither can Collins. Feels like maybe they re-route Collins for a guard.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Rumors today that Philly is seeking to move Harris as well, either with Simmons or separately. Unsurprising---that contract was awful from day 1 (as was choice to keep him and let Butler go). But also complicated---other than OKC, who presumably isn't interested---doubt anyone can really take both deals. And who would want to given what Harris is at this point?

Well, maybe let me check that: do we think Sixers would want Westbrook? I don't think so....but not totally inconceivable.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think they do that if they get something else, too. The Lakers don’t have anything so it would have to be a three way.
Yeah, Lakers could throw in the one first they can trade (27?28?), Monk or THT (though not sure cap-wise that's easy and they also want the players), and Nunn (not sure Philly sees value there) right?

This only says Harris' deal is really, really bad
 

Cellar-Door

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So for Harris here are options I see....

1. OKC will eat him if you give them enough draft compensation (will even throw you back Muscala or Favors)
2. HOU would probably be open to something structured around John Wall
3. POR for CJ? POR would want a lot more, but not CRAZY
4. DAL in a Kristaps deal?
5. SAC? Maybe if it's in a Simmons deal and you take Hield and Barnes back
 

HomeRunBaker

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Any interest in bringing Mook back using the TPE? I kind of like the idea of getting some more 'tude on the roster.
Maybe not Morris but for as much as people talk about getting rid of Smart I’d say we need MORE guys like him. Let’s add David Nwaba and a frontcourt attitude guy that TL can feed off to increase his toughness/intensity like a DHoward, SAdams, Harrell, etc. If Ime is determined to play this way and he’s Brad’s guy it is his responsibility for him to do the grocery shopping and feed the man what he wants to eat!
 

Cellar-Door

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Maybe not Morris but for as much as people talk about getting rid of Smart I’d say we need MORE guys like him. Let’s add David Nwaba and a frontcourt attitude guy that TL can feed off to increase his toughness/intensity like a DHoward, SAdams, Harrell, etc. If Ime is determined to play this way and he’s Brad’s guy it is his responsibility for him to do the grocery shopping and feed the man what he wants to eat!
Considering there was an article this morning about our interest in Jeff Green, it does seem that quadrupling down on guys who can't shoot and play slow is possibly the plan.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Considering there was an article this morning about our interest in Jeff Green, it does seem that quadrupling down on guys who can't shoot and play slow is possibly the plan.
Can never have too many lackadaisical players.
Are we talking about the same guy? Obv Green wasn’t what I had in mind when discussing tough guys but he’s been a highly effective energy 4/small ball 5 the past couple of years. Lackadaisical?

Green shot 3’s at over 41% last year, 48% from the corners which is a critical element of our offense, and 39% career from corner 3.
 

128

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Green shot 3’s at over 41% last year, 48% from the corners which is a critical element of our offense, and 39% career from corner 3.
The fact that Green didn't miss any 3s against Boston probably helped his percentage.
 

Cellar-Door

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Are we talking about the same guy? Obv Green wasn’t what I had in mind when discussing tough guys but he’s been a highly effective energy 4/small ball 5 the past couple of years. Lackadaisical?

Green shot 3’s at over 41% last year, 48% from the corners which is a critical element of our offense, and 39% career from corner 3.
I don;t think he's lackadisical, but I don't think he plays with good pace and he's a career 34% shooter from 3, and while he shot 41% last year, he is shooting 32% this year and his last season over 35 outside last year (on the stacked Nets) was in 2012-13. He's a solid defender, but he's not much of a passer or rebounder. He's not someone anyone should trade for, certainly not this team that desperately needs real shooting and passing.

Also he's 35 and has a player option next year. He's a better player than say... Juancho? But he's not an impact player at all and he'd probably be a negative if he picks up the option.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don;t think he's lackadisical, but I don't think he plays with good pace and he's a career 34% shooter from 3, and while he shot 41% last year, he is shooting 32% this year and his last season over 35 outside last year (on the stacked Nets) was in 2012-13. He's a solid defender, but he's not much of a passer or rebounder. He's not someone anyone should trade for, certainly not this team that desperately needs real shooting and passing.

Also he's 35 and has a player option next year. He's a better player than say... Juancho? But he's not an impact player at all and he'd probably be a negative if he picks up the option.
The role he’d be replacing would seem to be the one currently Romeo and Grant occupies. Since the formers minutes have already been reduced along with Ime’s comments about only playing players he trusts……a Green acquisition would lead me to believe Grant would be the next out.
 

Cellar-Door

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The role he’d be replacing would seem to be the one currently Romeo and Grant occupies. Since the formers minutes have already been reduced along with Ime’s comments about only playing players he trusts……a Green acquisition would lead me to believe Grant would be the next out.
Yeah, I think he's basically Grant but worse and headed in the wrong direction, and without the defensive switchability of Romeo on guards. I could see Green being a guy you snag at the end if you've sent out a bunch of guys in trades, or I guess if he's coming back in a Juancho dump to duck under the cap.

But my original point was... apparently what I see as the weaknesses of this team (shooting, particularly in the backcourt, passing, pace) are not what Brad sees as our weaknesses. Seems that like Danny before him, he just doesn't believe in pace and space
 

benhogan

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Utah struggling/teams are scoring POINTZ on them... Spider has been bitchin about the team defense.

Utah's last 4 games:
Toronto loss 122-108
Pacers loss 125-113
Pistons loss 126-116
tonight: Cavs loss 111-91

Brad call Danny and offer to fix their perimeter defense

Smart/Langford for Conley. Do it
 

HomeRunBaker

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Utah struggling/teams are scoring POINTZ on them... Spider has been bitchin about the team defense.

Utah's last 4 games:
Toronto loss 122-108
Pacers loss 125-113
Pistons loss 126-116
tonight: Cavs loss 111-91

Brad call Danny and offer to fix their perimeter defense

Smart/Langford for Conley. Do it
Danny is just a breath of fresh air wherever he goes these day. The Anti-Clover.
 

RorschachsMask

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There's a strong possibility Dennis Schroder is traded ahead of the deadline. Boston is expected to avoid the tax and therefore likely won't be able to afford the point guard this offseason, which was also why the Celtics moved Daniel Theis to the Bulls last season. New York, Cleveland and Dallas have been mentioned as potential destinations for Schroder.

Phoenix Suns big man Jalen Smith has been a recent trade target of Boston, according to league sources. There is a widespread belief the Celtics will be very active in efforts to bolster their roster around Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown in the coming weeks."
View: https://twitter.com/JakeLFischer/status/1481656796125163524?s=20
 

Cesar Crespo

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Can the C's re-sign Jalen Smith? What is going on there? Does anyone hold his rights or is he a FA?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Well now we know why Dame is shooting the ball so badly. I forgot about the abdominal stuff.

Can the C's re-sign Jalen Smith? What is going on there? Does anyone hold his rights or is he a FA?
It's actually worse than that (and I am just learning this). Because PHO turned down the option, they are limited to re-signing Smith for the option price: approximately $4.6M even if they have cap space. Any team acquiring Smith's contract at this point would be limited by the same rule. Other teams can sign him for more. So it is unlikely that the team holding Smith's contract is going to be able to re-sign him.

https://247sports.com/college/maryland/Article/Jalen-Smith-Phoenix-Suns-Contract-Maryland-Basketball-Star-180291822/
 

Cellar-Door

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THis was interesting, but some of it just goes to show how even some people who have reported on the league for a while don't really understand the cap. He notes that the Celtics would trade Schroder because they don't want to go over the tax to sign him next year.... which is inaccurate. He's conflating two different things...
1. They would like to get under the tax this year.
2. They can't resign Schroder likely... but the reason for that is his lack of Bird rights meaning they can't offer what he'll likely command for salary.

Things like that make me wonder about some of the other stuff writers put out because I don't know every team's cap situation, and clearly the writer doesn't know either.
 

RoDaddy

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Smart and DS have value and I wonder if they could net us a good player if sent to the same team, maybe a bona fide 3rd scorer? Langford could maybe slide into Smart's defensive role - a big if of course - but their games are not all that different including so-so offense except that Langford doesn't act like act like he's a go to guy like Smart. I have always hated that about Smart's game and losing that would be addition by subtraction. On top of that, aren't there cheap veteran PGs out there we could pick up that would really help the C's offense along the lines of a Rondo (who just moved to Cleveland)?
 

benhogan

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Smart and DS have value and I wonder if they could net us a good player if sent to the same team, maybe a bona fide 3rd scorer? Langford could maybe slide into Smart's defensive role - a big if of course - but their games are not all that different including so-so offense except that Langford doesn't act like act like he's a go to guy like Smart. I have always hated that about Smart's game and losing that would be addition by subtraction. On top of that, aren't there cheap veteran PGs out there we could pick up that would really help the C's offense along the lines of a Rondo (who just moved to Cleveland)?
Romeo is all of that but believe JRich would be the defacto Marcus replacement. Also, someone like David Nwaba or Torrey Craig would be interesting defense 1st vets to look at in the event of a Marcus deal.

If you want a Rondo-like player that's pretty close to Dennis Schroder
 

HomeRunBaker

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THis was interesting, but some of it just goes to show how even some people who have reported on the league for a while don't really understand the cap. He notes that the Celtics would trade Schroder because they don't want to go over the tax to sign him next year.... which is inaccurate. He's conflating two different things...
1. They would like to get under the tax this year.
2. They can't resign Schroder likely... but the reason for that is his lack of Bird rights meaning they can't offer what he'll likely command for salary.

Things like that make me wonder about some of the other stuff writers put out because I don't know every team's cap situation, and clearly the writer doesn't know either.
I’ve said this for decades……there are many people in forums such as this with a better grasp on the league and why certain things occur than those with titles and cashing a media paycheck. That doesn’t make them bad people but you can learn more by doing your own work or following those not in the media who do. Sometimes it’s just painful to read.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Smart and DS have value and I wonder if they could net us a good player if sent to the same team, maybe a bona fide 3rd scorer? Langford could maybe slide into Smart's defensive role - a big if of course - but their games are not all that different including so-so offense except that Langford doesn't act like act like he's a go to guy like Smart. I have always hated that about Smart's game and losing that would be addition by subtraction. On top of that, aren't there cheap veteran PGs out there we could pick up that would really help the C's offense along the lines of a Rondo (who just moved to Cleveland)?
If you trade both DS and MS, you'll have (as BenHogan notes), JRich as your de facto 1 with PP and maybe Thomas as the back-ups. That would probably make HRB's head explode. And if JRich went down, well that's a problem.

Rondo from a few years ago is nice but even Scal mentioned last night that he just can't guard people.

So I'm not one to say that things can't happen because you never know what other GMs might do if they are desparate, but DS and MS going out in the same deal isn't going to happen.
 

nighthob

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Smart and DS have value and I wonder if they could net us a good player if sent to the same team, maybe a bona fide 3rd scorer? Langford could maybe slide into Smart's defensive role - a big if of course - but their games are not all that different including so-so offense except that Langford doesn't act like act like he's a go to guy like Smart. I have always hated that about Smart's game and losing that would be addition by subtraction. On top of that, aren't there cheap veteran PGs out there we could pick up that would really help the C's offense along the lines of a Rondo (who just moved to Cleveland)?
Both Smart and Schröder have the same value delimiting factor, they’re only useful to contenders and no contender is trading one of their all stars for a couple of roleplayers, because that’s the quickest way to cease being a contender. At which point you don’t need the roleplayers anymore.
 

Cellar-Door

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Both Smart and Schröder have the same value delimiting factor, they’re only useful to contenders and no contender is trading one of their all stars for a couple of roleplayers, because that’s the quickest way to cease being a contender. At which point you don’t need the roleplayers anymore.
I mean... 3 way deals exist, in fact they are widespread across the league, sometimes deals can even involve, 4, 5 teams. The idea that a team that wants either of those guys can't find something the Celtics want isn't particularly reasonable.