12/25 vs. Philly: All I want for Xmas is Embiid's tears!!

BaseballJones

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Simmons sucks
Simmons’ shortcomings exposed badly late in OT. They needed a quick three, he dribbled down and had a totally uncontested, wide open look, and didn’t even think about shooting. Instead he gave it up so someone else could shoot and turned it over.

He does so many terrific things but this is a glaring glaring weakness. He learns to actually shoot and he could be an all time great player. Until then.....not so much.
 

lovegtm

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Frankly, this loss is on Brett Brown for playing Simmons. He’s a massive liability if Philly actually has championship aspirations. I firmly stand by my “should trade him ASAP” hot take. Ainge would have the guts to do it.

Edit: Meant Simmons as the liability, not Brown, although I guess it’s really both if the latter insists on relying on the former.
Scorching hot take: you're right. Simmons has sky-high trade value, doesn't fit the Embiid-Butler core, and goes MIA against any team with competent wing defenders.
 

Average Game James

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Butler is the worst "top ten" player ever.
Is he really a top 10 guy? I mean, definitely top 20, but off the top of my head... LeBron, KD, Kawhi, Curry, Harden, Embiid, Giannis, AD, Lillard, Westbrook, Kyrie and there are certainly arguments to be made for Paul George, Oladipo, Klay, And Towns among others...
 

TripleOT

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Simmons couldn't even draw some rim on a layup attempt. I can't believe that an NBA non-center can be that bad at shooting the basketball. The average NBA starting guard makes more shots 10 or more feet from the hoop in a game than BS has made all season.

Embiid would be beastly with a real PG who can shoot, both in the pick/roll and even on kicking the ball down low. Simmons' defender can sag off him, like Morris did tonight, and gum up the Sixers offense.
 

TripleOT

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To throw my two cents into the Robert Williams discussion, I'm guessing that Stevens didn't feel that TL had the team defensive concepts down that they use on Embiid. He had a big offensive game, with the 12 for 12 at the line, and 10 for 17 from the floor, but he did cough the ball up six times, and wasn't effective in OT.

I'm a Williams fan, and would have loved to have seen him bitch slap one of Embiid's shots. (sorry about the misogynistic reference).
 

lovegtm

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Enjoying the airing of chat grievances, something about the holidays brings it out I guess. I'm excited to post my non-TL Brad grievances later!
 

benhogan

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You and Ed win. Williams would have shut down Embiid. Peace.
Celtics win. We're all happy.

I was kind of joshing with you about straw/Nativity/Xmas...

just for the record, I got involved in the Al/TL/Theis minutes debate when I saw Horford stretched out on the floor and Theis got his 4th foul. Figured Brad might buy time with TL.
 

benhogan

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Simmons couldn't even draw some rim on a layup attempt. I can't believe that an NBA non-center can be that bad at shooting the basketball. The average NBA starting guard makes more shots 10 or more feet from the hoop in a game than BS has made all season.

Embiid would be beastly with a real PG who can shoot, both in the pick/roll and even on kicking the ball down low. Simmons' defender can sag off him, like Morris did tonight, and gum up the Sixers offense.
I'd gladly send the 76ers Brown, Rozier and our #1 for Simmons
 

BigSoxFan

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I'd gladly send the 76ers Brown, Rozier and our #1 for Simmons
Lillard is signed for 2.5 more years. Wonder if Portland would ever consider dealing him. He’s the guy I’d be after if I were Brand. Right now, sure he’s off limits but he’s the guy who I think would fit perfectly with Butler and Embiid. I think Kemba would too but Sixers aren’t trading Simmons for an expiring guy.
 

DrewDawg

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If we're going to do the body language thing, Scary Terry seemed pretty happy when Kyrie pulled the Sixers heart out from their throat.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Simmons couldn't even draw some rim on a layup attempt. I can't believe that an NBA non-center can be that bad at shooting the basketball. The average NBA starting guard makes more shots 10 or more feet from the hoop in a game than BS has made all season.

Embiid would be beastly with a real PG who can shoot, both in the pick/roll and even on kicking the ball down low. Simmons' defender can sag off him, like Morris did tonight, and gum up the Sixers offense.
Simmons made an 18 footer tonight as the shot clock was winding down. It was the longest jump shot of his career, according to the guys on the radio.

Unfortunately, I missed the 2nd half (well, I listened, but didn't see it) driving back from Xmas family shit, but a very good win against a good team, in which the C's really did seem to be in control for most of the game. Kyrie is next level, and I love it when he decides to get "selfish" at times.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Dude, you came into the Red Sox gamethreads during the playoffs to shit on people letting emotion out with absurd strawman bullshit, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen you post about baseball. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
Wait, what? You are now using baseball posts as an appeal to authority? You do know that I have been (sadly) posting about sports and primarily baseball here years before you showed up - and I posted plenty during the regular season. That doesn't make me any better than you (its pathetic actually) but your position that I don't post on baseball is so far off of the mark.

Anyway go ahead with your petulant child posts every time your team doesn't do something you know in your heart is right. I wish I could be as certain as you about my takes but experience has shown me I don't know nearly as much as most of the people who play, coach and manage for the sports I watch.
 

ifmanis5

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I love Williams and I get Brad is the worst coach in the NBA but we should give the Cs brain trust some credit here. They didn't use him because we are all smarter than them.
Or you could say that Kyrie single handedly bailed out some bad decisions. I’m in that camp. I’m also in the camp of Terry, Gordon and Jaylen are limiting Brad’s options and making things more difficult for everyone. This version of Hayward is sad to watch; shell of his former all-star self.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Simmons made an 18 footer tonight as the shot clock was winding down. It was the longest jump shot of his career, according to the guys on the radio.

Unfortunately, I missed the 2nd half (well, I listened, but didn't see it) driving back from Xmas family shit, but a very good win against a good team, in which the C's really did seem to be in control for most of the game. Kyrie is next level, and I love it when he decides to get "selfish" at times.
Not true as he made at least one 20 footer last year. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01/shooting/2018

May be longest of this season though.
 

BigSoxFan

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Wait, what? You are now using baseball posts as an appeal to authority? You do know that I have been (sadly) posting about sports and primarily baseball here years before you showed up - and I posted plenty during the regular season. That doesn't make me any better than you (its pathetic actually) but your position that I don't post on baseball is so far off of the mark.

Anyway go ahead with your petulant child posts every time your team doesn't do something you know in your heart is right. I wish I could be as certain as you about my takes but experience has shown me I don't know nearly as much as most of the people who play, coach and manage for the sports I watch.
Embiid is going to be a thorn in our sides for a long time. Baynes might be gone after this year. Theis almost certainly will be gone. We need to give Williams exposure to Embiid’s moves now, even if it’s just a few minutes at a time and especially when a rotation big is out of commission. IMO, a December regular season game is a perfect opportunity to do just that.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that Williams should get at least token minutes every game until the lineup is whole again. You said above to Ed, “I wish I could be as certain as you about my takes...”, which I found to be funny because you said last night with 100% certainty something to the extent of “TL would get destroyed by Embiid”. And now you’re criticizing Ed for doing the same thing with the opposite opinion while now pretending that you didn’t do just that.

You’ve said this before and you, and the people who watch Williams every day, were flat out wrong about Williams’ readiness to contribute, as he wasn’t dominated by AD and others like everyone expected. I’m not saying this to stick your face in the mud, I’m doing it to suggest that sometimes it doesn’t matter how much anyone watches or knows about basketball. Sometimes people simply outperform expectations and the only way you find out is by playing them.

This Celtics team is a mixed bag right now and record doesn’t mean a whole lot at this point. I don’t want Brad to go into “Playoff Tito” mode in December. I want him to keep playing the young guys. Many people seem to latch onto TL’s growing pains but we have 3rd, 4th, 7th year guys making similar mistakes. It’s not the end of the world if he misses a rotation or commits a bad foul.
 

Ed Hillel

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I didn’t even say the opposite, is the thing. I said might as well try TL, as nothing else is working and I got the standard strawman “oh TL would dominate Embiid!!111” crap. No, he sure might get destroyed by Embiid, but everyone else is and Theis is gonna foul out, so why not? It’s clear DeJesus adopts the theory that coaches and players are right 100% of the time because they know more than and are better than us, but I find that to be pretty boring and I’m unsure what would attract any such person to a site full of opinions and discussion. I’m not saying I, or anyone here, is a better coach than Brad or Jaylen, but if coaching or player criticism rattles one’s barn so much, why come to a game thread?
 

terrynever

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As a Philly fan, I enjoyed the respect players on both sides showed for one another. It was a great game to watch. The 76ers obviously are a better team with Butler on their side. Boston has maybe the best last-shot shooter in the league. Philly needs a better bench. Brown only got 65 minutes from his bench versus 90 for Boston. The 76ers did a lot of standing around in the final 10 minutes.
Boston has upside, too, even though most of the parts are already in place.
 

Kliq

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Simmons’ shortcomings exposed badly late in OT. They needed a quick three, he dribbled down and had a totally uncontested, wide open look, and didn’t even think about shooting. Instead he gave it up so someone else could shoot and turned it over.

He does so many terrific things but this is a glaring glaring weakness. He learns to actually shoot and he could be an all time great player. Until then.....not so much.
I think you're on to something here. Almost all of the best ball-handlers and playmakers in the NBA are at least passable outside shooters and a part of their game is getting out in transition and pulling up for three when they have a wide open look (Kyrie did this exact thing on the dagger three in OT). Obviously Curry, Harden, LeBron, Lillard, Kyrie, Kemba, etc. are all adept at doing this, and even a guy like Westbrook who is kind of a lousy three point shooter will still have the courage to take that shot if it's a good look. If your playmaker is afraid and incapable of taking that shot, it both keeps your team from cashing in on open looks that every other team in the league is feasting on, and also makes your transition offense much more predictable because you don't have to respect the pull-up.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Embiid is going to be a thorn in our sides for a long time. Baynes might be gone after this year. Theis almost certainly will be gone. We need to give Williams exposure to Embiid’s moves now, even if it’s just a few minutes at a time and especially when a rotation big is out of commission. IMO, a December regular season game is a perfect opportunity to do just that.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that Williams should get at least token minutes every game until the lineup is whole again. You said above to Ed, “I wish I could be as certain as you about my takes...”, which I found to be funny because you said last night with 100% certainty something to the extent of “TL would get destroyed by Embiid”. And now you’re criticizing Ed for doing the same thing with the opposite opinion while now pretending that you didn’t do just that.

You’ve said this before and you, and the people who watch Williams every day, were flat out wrong about Williams’ readiness to contribute, as he wasn’t dominated by AD and others like everyone expected. I’m not saying this to stick your face in the mud, I’m doing it to suggest that sometimes it doesn’t matter how much anyone watches or knows about basketball. Sometimes people simply outperform expectations and the only way you find out is by playing them.

This Celtics team is a mixed bag right now and record doesn’t mean a whole lot at this point. I don’t want Brad to go into “Playoff Tito” mode in December. I want him to keep playing the young guys. Many people seem to latch onto TL’s growing pains but we have 3rd, 4th, 7th year guys making similar mistakes. It’s not the end of the world if he misses a rotation or commits a bad foul.
This is a fair take and you are correct that I should have stated that the Cs probably were worried about Embiid abusing Williams. I don't know that this was what they were thinking or even that it would happen. I am also not against using him in spots because I thought his rawness would be exposed more thus far and to your point it has not. I just saw multiple posts lamenting the fact that Stevens wasn't using him against the 76ers and I responded - I should not have done so. I apologize.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I think we didn't see any TL against Embiid because strong, physical centers like Drummond and Ayton have abused him badly and Embiid is just as strong and more skilled than the two of them. He's not strong enough to bang inside with the big boys yet. I don't think it would've worked out and I'm not sure if him getting abused on NBA's biggest non-playoff stage is the best thing for him right now. If Horford was still out then sure, but we didn't need emergency C minutes last night.
 

BigSoxFan

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This is a fair take and you are correct that I should have stated that the Cs probably were worried about Embiid abusing Williams. I don't know that this was what they were thinking or even that it would happen. I am also not against using him in spots because I thought his rawness would be exposed more thus far and to your point it has not. I just saw multiple posts lamenting the fact that Stevens wasn't using him against the 76ers and I responded - I should not have done so. I apologize.
Definitely no need to apologize. It's healthy to have both sides of a discussion. Sometimes the "hey trust the coach" argument is valid. It certainly was during the baseball playoffs when Cora basically curb stomped all his critics, including me.

However, given the lower stakes of a regular season NBA game, I'm fine with Williams coming in against a tough matchup like Embiid. He's going to have to face him at some point so might as well see where he is. It's not like Theis is Karl Malone out there with his physique and Williams isn't exactly Bol Bol either. My take is that a guy like TL needs to be challenged to bring out the best. In some games, he'll be up for the challenge and will warrant 15+ minutes. In others, he'll get schooled and will only deserve 5 or so. Last night probably would have been one of the latter.

In the end, I want to see him get consistent minutes because injuries can come at any time and Horford/Baynes are both on the wrong side of 30 and have already been injured this year.
 

chilidawg

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I think we didn't see any TL against Embiid because strong, physical centers like Drummond and Ayton have abused him badly and Embiid is just as strong and more skilled than the two of them. He's not strong enough to bang inside with the big boys yet. I don't think it would've worked out and I'm not sure if him getting abused on NBA's biggest non-playoff stage is the best thing for him right now. If Horford was still out then sure, but we didn't need emergency C minutes last night.
My guess would be that the concern is not so much TL getting abused at the defensive end, because he couldn't have been much worse than Theis. Theis just can't guard true bigs in the post, but on the offensive end Theis does offer some perimeter skills and the ability to shoot the 3. If Williams is in the game Embiid has free reign to clog the paint.

I still would have loved to see TL get a shot at defending Embiid, but if you're trying to win the game it's probably not a smart move.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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My guess would be that the concern is not so much TL getting abused at the defensive end, because he couldn't have been much worse than Theis. Theis just can't guard true bigs in the post, but on the offensive end Theis does offer some perimeter skills and the ability to shoot the 3. If Williams is in the game Embiid has free reign to clog the paint.

I still would have loved to see TL get a shot at defending Embiid, but if you're trying to win the game it's probably not a smart move.
I think Brad really really wanted to win the game last night. He coached it like a playoff game (even calling time out to stop a run, rather than letting his team try to play through it).

And you are correct, if TL isn't even going to look at the basket when he has the ball 10 feet out, it's not good for the offense as a whole. Lobs or no lobs.