10/17 - 10/18 Gamethread: Adversary Cross The Mersey

Section30

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If that was offsides then why play the effing game?.

More importantly why should anyone watch it?

I am really doubting the integrity of the games now.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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The offsides decision looks silly but that’s the one area where VAR should be pretty objective. As far as I understand, they’re not eyeballing it, there is a computer making calculations based on angles and pixels. And the only defensible decision rule is that offside is offside, even if it’s by a millimeter. Any other decision rule would be ridiculous. You can’t say offside is offside, unless it’s so close that it looks onside to people complaining on Twitter.

Pickford, however, should have been off.
 
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SocrManiac

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The offsides decision looks silly but that’s the one area where VAR should be pretty objective. It’s not like they’re eyeballing it, there’s a computer making calculations based on angles and pixels. And the only defensible decision rule is that offside is offside, even if it’s by a millimeter. Any other decision rule would be ridiculous. You can’t say offside is offside, unless it’s so close that it looks onside to people complaining on Twitter.
The camera is recording at 24 frames per second. There needs to be an error built into the line to account for that, and there isn’t. If the camera had taken a different frame, maybe he’s on.

Regardless, it was objectively the wrong decision. He can’t score with his elbow, he can’t be off by his elbow.

They also inexplicably ignored Mina’s foot.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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The camera is recording at 24 frames per second. There needs to be an error built into the line to account for that, and there isn’t. If the camera had taken a different frame, maybe he’s on.

Regardless, it was objectively the wrong decision. He can’t score with his elbow, he can’t be off by his elbow.

They also inexplicably ignored Mina’s foot.
So .. what , exactly IS the offside rule now? It was mentioned the recent handball change has affected offside? Are they now saying that any part of the arm can now be offside? If that’s the case , does it apply to defenders as well?
 

SocrManiac

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So .. what , exactly IS the offside rule now? It was mentioned the recent handball change has affected offside? Are they now saying that any part of the arm can now be offside? If that’s the case , does it apply to defenders as well?
The entire upper arm is now offside. It was supposed to fix the armpit problem.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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eVARton. Am I right!?!?
This is the first egregious one in our favor after several against, so while I agree that this was a terrible call and that this kind of enforcement of offside with VAR is a disaster, it’s a variable in the game right now and if it breaks against your side this theme then so be it. We’ve been fucked by it enough then if one goes in our favor I’ll take it.

LFC fans can say the refs handed us a point but if they (or ManU fans) want to cry about ref bias against them, lol boo boo.
 

Section30

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I don't know either as I have listened to three different interpretations used as justification for the VAR screw up of the given match day.
 

Zomp

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This is the first egregious one in our favor after several against, so while I agree that this was a terrible call and that this kind of enforcement of offside with VAR is a disaster, it’s a variable in the game right now and if it breaks against your side this theme then so be it. We’ve been fucked by it enough then if one goes in our favor I’ll take it.

LFC fans can say the refs handed us a point but if they (or ManU fans) want to cry about ref bias against them, lol boo boo.

If you take it as me crying about it you've misunderstood. I was very happy with the result plus now I get the added salt from Liverpool fans.

I don't think Pickford's foul was violent conduct, so it cannot be a red.

The offside call is a rough in that it was decided by a camera but MMS is right.

The only call that was a no brainer was Richarlison's red but maybe he thought Thiago was offside?
 

Section30

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So argument is that since my team has been screwed by VAR more than your team take your lumps and like it?

If ALL fans are feeling their team is getting hurt by this then it is undermining the integrity of the game.
 

teddykgb

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I’ve just given up on this season as a competitive endeavor. It’s absolute madness to me that matches are even being played today. Almost all of these players were on a compressed international break and have played a ridiculous compressed schedule at this point. It’s like we took the brutal Xmas period that always sucked and decided to extend it to the entire first half of the season. It’s only going to lead to poor play and injuries
 

Section30

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From that article the range is +8 to -7 calls, a range of 15 calls in 5 games. How is that any better than the referee calling the game without VAR. I would rather have the judgement of the referee on the field be final. The idea behind VAR was to remedy egregious errors, instead it has become 2 centimeters of a shirtsleeve determines the outcomes of games.
 

SocrManiac

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From that article the range is +8 to -7 calls, a range of 15 calls in 5 games. How is that any better than the referee calling the game without VAR. I would rather have the judgement of the referee on the field be final. The idea behind VAR was to remedy egregious errors, instead it has become 2 centimeters of a shirtsleeve determines the outcomes of games.
The problem is, referees can’t keep up with the modern game. Until they add another official on the pitch (at minimum), VAR has a place. We have to correct absurd errors (like the yellow originally awarded to Christensen in CHE-LIV).

One of the easiest ways to fix the offside issues is to thicken the lines to indicate the uncertainty of the camera and challenge of finding the right pixel.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Another VAR point .. supposedly things have improved with the instruction to the refs to have an on field review. But even this appears to be cosmetic. Every single on field review this year has overturned the original call on the field.

 
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Catcher Block

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Every single on field review this year has overturned the original call on the field.
Wouldn't that be preferable to premature whistles that end plays before they're allowed to unfold? That seems to be the common argument in NFL game threads--let the TD/fumble/etc happen and trigger the automatic review to see if it's correct.

Edit: And I know players have tried to get in the habit of finishing plays to satisfy a possible review, but there's a argument to be made that everyone stops on the whistle.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Wouldn't that be preferable to premature whistles that end plays before they're allowed to unfold? That seems to be the common argument in NFL game threads--let the TD/fumble/etc happen and trigger the automatic review to see if it's correct.

Edit: And I know players have tried to get in the habit of finishing plays to satisfy a possible review, but there's a argument to be made that everyone stops on the whistle.
This is true. But .. the problem is VAR itself .. all these issues have arisen because they have taken the decision making away from the on field officials. When Henderson scored I still couldn’t celebrate because I knew it might be offside.

To my mind the immediacy of the fan experience is vastly more important. It’s ruined offside rulings .. and the “subjective” calls are still subjective .. but its worse as you have to wait around for minutes on end.
 

SocrManiac

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I’ve just given up on this season as a competitive endeavor. It’s absolute madness to me that matches are even being played today. Almost all of these players were on a compressed international break and have played a ridiculous compressed schedule at this point. It’s like we took the brutal Xmas period that always sucked and decided to extend it to the entire first half of the season. It’s only going to lead to poor play and injuries
Late to the party on this one, but I can’t wrap my brain around maintaining the international schedules. How can they justify any type of bubble being effective? Aren’t we seeing a rash of positives now that can be linked to the break?

The quality of play hasn’t dropped off as dramatically as I’d have expected, but it’s still early (and the off season didn’t allow time for rust to develop). I fully expect you’re correct, though, and by December we’ll be seeing team sheets that look like early round FA Cup matches.
 

Catcher Block

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To my mind the immediacy of the fan experience is vastly more important. It’s ruined offside rulings .. and the “subjective” calls are still subjective .. but its worse as you have to wait around for minutes on end.
Yeah, agreed. Introducing the virtual offisides line and the pixel cam is surely not what the original intentions should have been. If they could un-ring that bell and return it to the ability for the on-field official to review a single monitor with the naked eye (to catch the clear, obvious error), that would probably be more palatable.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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If you take it as me crying about it you've misunderstood. I was very happy with the result plus now I get the added salt from Liverpool fans.

I don't think Pickford's foul was violent conduct, so it cannot be a red.

The offside call is a rough in that it was decided by a camera but MMS is right.

The only call that was a no brainer was Richarlison's red but maybe he thought Thiago was offside?
The thing is ..we now have play on the field - players competing at the highest level - which simply doesn’t count. You can get a red card or a yellow or, much worse, get injured because the side officials are instructed to keep the flag down. I’ve seen corners awarded on obvious offside plays this year. All this so their omniscient god VAR can save the day?
 
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OCST

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This is true. But .. the problem is VAR itself .. all these issues have arisen because they have taken the decision making away from the on field officials. When Henderson scored I still couldn’t celebrate because I knew it might be offside.

To my mind the immediacy of the fan experience is vastly more important. It’s ruined offside rulings .. and the “subjective” calls are still subjective .. but its worse as you have to wait around for minutes on end.
Robust agreement. This has turned me off the NFL big time. I hate to see it happening here. Again I'll take it here because if this is the lay of the land now I don't want my side getting fucked more than any other, but that goal should have stood.
 

SocrManiac

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View: https://twitter.com/_pauljoyce/status/1317487806617444352


“Virgil van Dijk and Thiago Alcantara have gone for scans on suspected knee injuries following the incidents involving Jordan Pickford and Richarlison.”

We’ve talked about how the loss of van Dijk would absolutely preclude Liverpool from really challenging for the title. To potentially lose Thiago to an absolutely despicable, cynical tackle from an utter thug is just devastating. Richarlison should be suspended until Thiago is healthy.
 

teddykgb

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Late to the party on this one, but I can’t wrap my brain around maintaining the international schedules. How can they justify any type of bubble being effective? Aren’t we seeing a rash of positives now that can be linked to the break?

The quality of play hasn’t dropped off as dramatically as I’d have expected, but it’s still early (and the off season didn’t allow time for rust to develop). I fully expect you’re correct, though, and by December we’ll be seeing team sheets that look like early round FA Cup matches.
yeah the international calendar is so risky and dangerous. It’s completely crazy to me that they’re playing the made up nations league in the midst of a pandemic
 

SoxFanInCali

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I mean, we all know that Liverpool have benefitted from some extremely close decisions in the past, so I really don't mind if it comes back against them because someone was a couple inches offside. The thing that's bothering me is I'm looking at the pictures of both incidents today, and I can't see why the calls were made. The line they drew to put VVD a couple of centimeters offside was based on the position of his elbow, where he would have been onside if drawn from a part of his body that could legally play the ball. And I can't even figure out where the lines on the Mane play were derived from.

Again, if there's consistent logic to how the lines are drawn, and it shows a Liverpool player marginally offside, I can accept it. But when I can look directly at the pictures, and not understand how they made the call they did, it's frustrating.
 

SocrManiac

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I mean, we all know that Liverpool have benefitted from some extremely close decisions in the past, so I really don't mind if it comes back against them because someone was a couple inches offside. The thing that's bothering me is I'm looking at the pictures of both incidents today, and I can't see why the calls were made. The line they drew to put VVD a couple of centimeters offside was based on the position of his elbow, where he would have been onside if drawn from a part of his body that could legally play the ball. And I can't even figure out where the lines on the Mane play were derived from.

Again, if there's consistent logic to how the lines are drawn, and it shows a Liverpool player marginally offside, I can accept it. But when I can look directly at the pictures, and not understand how they made the call they did, it's frustrating.
Here’s one explanation:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1317431071261249536




35006
One thing that’s been pointed out is Richarlison’s red came after the whistle for a previous foul. If that’s the case, you have two interpretations of that in a single match and Pickford’s escape from justice is even more egregious.
 

Dummy Hoy

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I mean, we all know that Liverpool have benefitted from some extremely close decisions in the past, so I really don't mind if it comes back against them because someone was a couple inches offside. The thing that's bothering me is I'm looking at the pictures of both incidents today, and I can't see why the calls were made. The line they drew to put VVD a couple of centimeters offside was based on the position of his elbow, where he would have been onside if drawn from a part of his body that could legally play the ball. And I can't even figure out where the lines on the Mane play were derived from.

Again, if there's consistent logic to how the lines are drawn, and it shows a Liverpool player marginally offside, I can accept it. But when I can look directly at the pictures, and not understand how they made the call they did, it's frustrating.
I mentioned before, but it really is absurd. I don’t understand the rules of football apparently.
 

teddykgb

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This Arsenal v City match has been more of a managerial chess match than anything. I’ve watched for an hour and couldn’t accurately tell you Citys formation in any conventional definition.

Arsenal mostly holding shape and hoping to find one. Not particularly entertaining
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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View: https://twitter.com/_pauljoyce/status/1317487806617444352


“Virgil van Dijk and Thiago Alcantara have gone for scans on suspected knee injuries following the incidents involving Jordan Pickford and Richarlison.”

We’ve talked about how the loss of van Dijk would absolutely preclude Liverpool from really challenging for the title. To potentially lose Thiago to an absolutely despicable, cynical tackle from an utter thug is just devastating. Richarlison should be suspended until Thiago is healthy.
This isn't the ideal time to be mounting a defense of Richarlison, but I think you're off base. He is a snot. I grant that he's a flopper. He's not a headhunter.

This is fouls per 90 minutes for 2019/20, minimum 10 appearances (whoscored.com).

35007

That's with over 3000 minutes. Many of the 22 players on the pitch were ahead of him.

In 76 games for Everton, he has 14 yellows, about a yellow every 5 1/2 games, and now this is his second red. The first one was a joke - he was jawing with Adam Smith of Bournemouth and they bumped foreheads. By the letter of the law it was a head butt but the contact was slight and it was one of the softest reds I remember seeing.

That's a pretty large sample size and his discipline is right in line or a little less than you'd expect. Obviously any player can get away with shithousery that goes unpunished over a short span of games but the numbers don't reflect it. I also don't anecdotally remember another incident where he came in on someone with that kind of aggression. He's more of a pull-your-jersey-when-the-ref-isn't-looking-type, not a thug.

Go ahead and hate him though, I get it.