10/11 - ALDS vs Tampa. Game 4.

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The only thing that bothered me on the replays was the Sox streaming onto the field while the ball was still in play. It wasn't a walk off bomb or a play like 2004 ALCS G5 where the outfielder conceded the run. I don't like it.....stay off the damn field until the ball is no longer in play. In this case with Meadows throwing home, that moment was not until Santana crossed the plate.
I understand this, but, as the following video demonstrates, teammates rushing the field before the winning run crosses the plate is as old as baseball itself.


(The walk off single from the 1924 World Series begins around the 1:45 mark.)
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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That was my hunch (maybe because I've seen it before in the middle of some random game). Thanks.
One interesting question is why Cash didn’t appeal. There is no downside and you can do it until the defense leaves the field.

It is also reviewable by replay.

If not obvious on a season ending walk off sac fly, I would appeal and as for a replay. Why not? Yeah, it makes you an asshole but so what?
 

Al Zarilla

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I can see why it's tempting to walk Kike there. But Feyereisen doesn't have very good control. It's pretty risky to walk the bases loaded there and face Devers who while not at 100%, is still likely a better hitter than Kike against RHP and he will take a walk too (9.3% walk rate this year and 4 BB in 24 PAs in the playoffs to that point) which loses the game for the Rays in that scenario.

I don't think it would have been a crushing mistake to walk Kike...it's defensible, but I would have pitched to him like the Rays did. There really weren't any good options there for Cash.
Great that Cora recently settled in with Devers batting third and Bogaerts fourth in the lineup. TB surely would have walked Kike if Bogey were up after him, with Bogey in and out of hitting funks the last month or two. Found this hard to believe: according to BBREF, Devers only started 8 games in the regular season batting third. Thank God he was third last night.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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One interesting question is why Cash didn’t appeal. There is no downside and you can do it until the defense leaves the field.

It is also reviewable by replay.

If not obvious on a season ending walk off sac fly, I would appeal and as for a replay. Why not? Yeah, it makes you an asshole but so what?
It would be unnecessary bad sportsmanship. It wasn't even close.
 

joe dokes

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One interesting question is why Cash didn’t appeal. There is no downside and you can do it until the defense leaves the field.

It is also reviewable by replay.

If not obvious on a season ending walk off sac fly, I would appeal and as for a replay. Why not? Yeah, it makes you an asshole but so what?
I think Cash had the same view as that 3rd base umpire that moved around the base to see ball and runner in the same view, and would have appealed if there was even a remote chance of success.
 

dhappy42

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Great that Cora recently settled in with Devers batting third and Bogaerts fourth in the lineup. TB surely would have walked Kike if Bogey were up after him, with Bogey in and out of hitting funks the last month or two. Found this hard to believe: according to BBREF, Devers only started 8 games in the regular season batting third. Thank God he was third last night.
Bogarts also bats right.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It would be unnecessary bad sportsmanship. It wasn't even close.
I would do it every time in a season ending context.

We have replay now to see if a runner’s thumb loses the base for an instant. If you have the benefit of time and replay to show you that it is clearly ok you take a pass. But you don’t. You have ten seconds on a play you saw from the dugout and you have no idea what you don’t know. I would not do it in game 100. I would do it for sure in win or go home.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Bogarts also bats right.
Yep. I think it is the same reason Renfroe bats 7th, even though that was not his usual spot this year.

Cora wanted the first 6 to be LRLRLR. It is a smart move for the three batter rule, especially against the Rays where every game can effectively be a bullpen game.
 

Al Zarilla

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FS1 must have had the ambient crowd noise mike turned down, because I thought the crowd noise was much quieter than the night before. I even complained about it in the game thread. Three eyewitness accounts prove that perception on my account wrong. Perhaps MLB Networks mikes the night before were turned up? Whatever, I am happy for the SoSH members who attended - a once in a lifetime memory. Very exciting.
Yeah, wish I was there. Only Sox playoff games I've seen have been in Oakland, but one of them was the clincher in the 1975 ALCS, which, of course, went our way.
 

54thMA

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100-win team loses to team that made wild card by skin of its team.

Rosenthal: A gallant fight.

lol.

View: https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/status/1447901868999446530?s=21


I kinda like that Rays team. But this was a disaster for them.
Switch Dodgers with Red Sox and he could have written the same headline last year.

I don't give a shit how young or talented you are; you need to cash in when you have the chance as there are no guarantees in sports.

Ever.
 

staz

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The cradle of the game.
Mentioned upthread is the nuanced decision to leave Vaz in the game on second, but then pinch run when he got to 3rd. (I could argue both sides of this). Obviously worked out, but wondering how close is the play at the plate if Meadows makes an accurate throw and Vaz is running?
 

Al Zarilla

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Yep. I think it is the same reason Renfroe bats 7th, even though that was not his usual spot this year.

Cora wanted the first 6 to be LRLRLR. It is a smart move for the three batter rule, especially against the Rays where every game can effectively be a bullpen game.
If you want alternating handedness you could just as easily go RLRLRL, with Kiké leading off. I'm still all whaaa? when I see Schwarb leading off, but what the hell, after the first inning it doesn't matter. As much of a Bogaerts fan as I am, I'm happy that Raffy was lurking on deck last night when Kiké was up.
 

dhappy42

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Since the demise of bunt-and-steal small ball, it makes sense for batting orders to simply rank order players by OBP, adjusting for handedness.
 

Al Zarilla

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I understand this, but, as the following video demonstrates, teammates rushing the field before the winning run crosses the plate is as old as baseball itself.


(The walk off single from the 1924 World Series begins around the 1:45 mark.)
In my decades of watching baseball I have never seen a pitcher with a delivery like Walter Johnson. 417career wins.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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If you want alternating handedness you could just as easily go RLRLRL, with Kiké leading off. I'm still all whaaa? when I see Schwarb leading off, but what the hell, after the first inning it doesn't matter. As much of a Bogaerts fan as I am, I'm happy that Raffy was lurking on deck last night when Kiké was up.
Yeah, I guess against a right handed starter you want to be sure you have two left handed batters in inning one? Who knows.

Maybe Cora sees some benefit to being able to go RL as the lineup turns over as more important than going LR on batters 6-7? You’re probably right that it is six of one half dozen of another. With Dalbec likely the first in for Shwarber I guess you are also looking at RRR in late innings so there’s no perfect answer.

Funny thing is Xander is probably the guy I trust most to hit a sac fly in a big spot, even though he failed last night. Rafi sometimes only has one speed. If they had walked the bases full with one out in that situation, recency bias aside, I would have been fine with Xander or Rafi. We fortunately don’t need to worry about it!
 

Al Zarilla

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Yeah, I guess against a right handed starter you want to be sure you have two left handed batters in inning one? Who knows.

Maybe Cora sees some benefit to being able to go RL as the lineup turns over as more important than going LR on batters 6-7? You’re probably right that it is six of one half dozen of another. With Dalbec likely the first in for Shwarber I guess you are also looking at RRR in late innings so there’s no perfect answer.

Funny thing is Xander is probably the guy I trust most to hit a sac fly in a big spot, even though he failed last night. Rafi sometimes only has one speed. If they had walked the bases full with one out in that situation, recency bias aside, I would have been fine with Xander or Rafi. We fortunately don’t need to worry about it!
Yeah, Raffy swings from you know where, lets out shaft every time, even with a bad wing. Not automatic for a sac fly. Worked out beautifully with Kiké. Raf's home run had great hang time. Tried to find the height at Hittracker...not there anymore. Anybody know how to look that up?
 

InsideTheParker

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I had to turn it off after the Tilt meltdown. Just watched updates on the MLB app until the 9th. Then I turned it back on. How did my heart take 2003 and 2004?
You were younger then. I tuned out after the score went to 3-5, b/c I had a bad feeling about things, just checked the score from time to time, tuned back in to see the ninth. That's the second day in a row my timing had been impeccable. Watched the whole game this a.m. on FS1. Glad I did it "my way." Glad the Sox did it their way.
 

patinorange

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Thanks for this little nugget. Very interesting.
I love what Iggy added to the team and that he is enjoying being on the bench for all this good stuff.
I don't think they would be in the playoffs without him. Great late season pick up. I notice he is sitting right next to Cora during the games and they seem to be chatting quite a bit.
Studying to be a manager?
 

The Gray Eagle

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I am not going to miss having to face Kiermaier anymore this year. He's a pest who seems to play like a cross between Willie Mays and Brent Gardener against the Red Sox, and he seems like a douche too.
He makes $12 million next year, so I hope they trade him out of the division at least.
 

section15

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Tampa Bay press is downplaying the losses.... low key. Then again, Tampa Bay has little support down there. Some insisting "it's rigged - it's rigged" - complaining about a questionable strike three call against Wander Franco (welcome to the bigs, rookie) and still over that Sunday play out near the bullpen. Some calling it the "tuck rule of baseball".

One reporter on SBNation discussing "Edwin" Rodriguez.

Two things in this game - why Kevin Cash won't be manager of the year.

1) Why did he pull McCullough out after two innings - he seemed to be sailing along and you might want to (at least) get him through the lineup once and

2) The 9th inning - managed badly. Once Travis Shaw took 2nd on indifference, or even BEFORE then - walk Kiki and take your chances with Raffi. You have the double play in place - plus the benefit of the infield fly rule with only one out.
 

Return of the Dewey

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2) The 9th inning - managed badly. Once Travis Shaw took 2nd on indifference, or even BEFORE then - walk Kiki and take your chances with Raffi. You have the double play in place - plus the benefit of the infield fly rule with only one out.
Or, don't let Shaw take 2d on indifference. DP still possible with extremely slow Shaw at 1B. I was very happy with the indifference at the time, and didn't understand why they would let it happen.
 

Saints Rest

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Tampa Bay press is downplaying the losses.... low key. Then again, Tampa Bay has little support down there. Some insisting "it's rigged - it's rigged" - complaining about a questionable strike three call against Wander Franco (welcome to the bigs, rookie) and still over that Sunday play out near the bullpen. Some calling it the "tuck rule of baseball".

One reporter on SBNation discussing "Edwin" Rodriguez.

Two things in this game - why Kevin Cash won't be manager of the year.

1) Why did he pull McCullough out after two innings - he seemed to be sailing along and you might want to (at least) get him through the lineup once and

2) The 9th inning - managed badly. Once Travis Shaw took 2nd on indifference, or even BEFORE then - walk Kiki and take your chances with Raffi. You have the double play in place - plus the benefit of the infield fly rule with only one out.
I kind of thought that maybe the plan for Kiké was the old "unintentional intentional walk" in the hopes that they could get a strikeout with Kiké trying to be too aggressive. But the pitch sequence didn't support that.
 

TFisNEXT

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Or, don't let Shaw take 2d on indifference. DP still possible with extremely slow Shaw at 1B. I was very happy with the indifference at the time, and didn't understand why they would let it happen.
I still think their point on intentionally walking Kike is wrong. Feyereisen is not a good control pitcher so loading the bases and trusting him not to walk Devers is a monster gamble....never mind that Devers against him is likely a more favorable matchup for the Red Sox to begin with.

The fact that first base was open seems like it makes even more sense to pitch to Kike (who doesn’t walk a lot) and try to get him to swing at a pitcher’s pitch. If you do happen to walk him, then it at least doesn’t force in a run there.
 

scottyno

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Tampa Bay press is downplaying the losses.... low key. Then again, Tampa Bay has little support down there. Some insisting "it's rigged - it's rigged" - complaining about a questionable strike three call against Wander Franco (welcome to the bigs, rookie) and still over that Sunday play out near the bullpen. Some calling it the "tuck rule of baseball".

One reporter on SBNation discussing "Edwin" Rodriguez.

Two things in this game - why Kevin Cash won't be manager of the year.

1) Why did he pull McCullough out after two innings - he seemed to be sailing along and you might want to (at least) get him through the lineup once and

2) The 9th inning - managed badly. Once Travis Shaw took 2nd on indifference, or even BEFORE then - walk Kiki and take your chances with Raffi. You have the double play in place - plus the benefit of the infield fly rule with only one out.
Assuming 1 is supposed to be McHugh, he wasn't sailing at all, he was getting rocked and the balls happened to be all going to the wrong part of the park and towards the guy who catches everything. He was lucky not to give up multiple runs in the 2nd.
 

Saints Rest

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Thanks. The back foot advice makes sense in that pulling that foot back, likely drops your back shoulder a bit, making it harder to stay on top of the ball.
In the bunt last night, one of the replays showed clearly how Arroyo had to move his barrel up to get on top of the ball.
A really great bunt.
 

Saints Rest

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And I think I’ve only seen it mentioned a couple times, but good baserunning on both ends of Shaw’s grounder. As soon as it was clear that 3B would be clear, Vaz hightailed it over there. And Shaw busted ass down the line to make sure that the error paid off.
Basics that are taught to kids, demonstrated on the biggest stage.
 

jayhoz

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And I think I’ve only seen it mentioned a couple times, but good baserunning on both ends of Shaw’s grounder. As soon as it was clear that 3B would be clear, Vaz hightailed it over there. And Shaw busted ass down the line to make sure that the error paid off.
Basics that are taught to kids, demonstrated on the biggest stage.
Lots of teaching moments the last few nights. I discussed all of these with my boys just last night:

Whitlock backing up third saves a run.
Renfroe should have thrown to second to hold Randy at first.
Vaz taking third behind the throw.
Franco should have set his feet before he threw.
Pickoff move on Vaz was to try to see if Arroyo was bunting.