The Game Ball Thread: Wk. 6 @ Cleveland

8slim

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BB
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Steve B.

What the staff has done the past 2 weeks to get (a) the O to function with a rookie QB, and (b) the D to play at an elite level, is truly remarkable.

All year I've been killing the decision to have Patricia and Judge run the O, so I gotta offer a mea culpa.
 

Cellar-Door

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The point differential shocks me, but I suppose I should be surprised after big wins the last two week.

Let's give a shout out to OC Matt Patricia, who might actually....know what he's doing? Great game plans and playcalling the last two weeks to support the rookie QB.
They were -21 through the first 3 games, +49 in the last 3 (which includes a loss).
 

Cotillion

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I wasn't in the game thread, so maybe this was discussed and I had the game on mute for a bit--on the play where Henry was pushed out of the end zone before catching the pass---why wasn't that a PI penalty and also, I thought if you were pushed out you could re-establish and catch the ball?

Gracias.
Patriots tight end Hunter Henry is pushed out off the end line. He steps back into the end zone and catches the pass. In the NFL, a receiver becomes ineligible to be the first player to touch a pass if he steps out of bounds. Officials will drop a hat on the boundary line to indicate that an eligible player has stepped out of bounds.
Since Henry is reestablished in bounds with two feet, he has illegally touched the pass. The penalty is essentially 0 yards; return the ball to the previous line of scrimmage and the down counts, just as if it was an incomplete pass.
In college, a receiver who does not go out of bounds on his own may re-establish back in the field of play and legally catch a pass. In the NFL, the only time an out-of-bounds player retains his eligibility is if the receiver was put out of bounds by the result of a foul.
So the question here is why the Browns were legally allowed to push Henry out of bounds. Because Patriots quarterback Bailey Zappe was scrambling, this is now a running play, and illegal contact fouls do not apply. (Other fouls such as holding remain.) Defensive pass interference does become a potential foul if the scrambling quarterback throws a pass. Zappe was still warding off a defender at the point when Henry was driven out of bounds, so this is correctly no foul on the defense. But if the timing was off and it was a defensive foul, Henry would have been eligible to catch the touchdown pass.
It's an interesting hole in the NFL rules. Once a pass catcher goes out of bounds, so long as it was not the result of a foul, they can never become eligible to catch the ball again.
 

Ed Hillel

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Curran cleared this up on Twitter. Zappe was out of the pocket so that protection against being pushed OOB goes away.
Correct, though the rule still states that the player can reestablish and catch the ball legally. The ref said over the microphone he wasn't pushed to justify their call, which was of course incorrect. Then the refs proceeded to put the ball on the 2 on 4th down instead of the 7, which was the original LoS after the false start on 3rd down.

An all around clusterfuck.

Edit - Oh, just seeing above. I saw several tweets that stated the player could reestablish, similar to a punt. Hmmm...

Edit 2 - If they really can't reestablish as the rules are written, they need to change it.

Edit 3 - Henry was WIDE OPEN right off the snap, but somehow Zappe didn't see him and made that play a lot harder than he needed to.
 

BaseballJones

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Edit 3 - Henry was WIDE OPEN right off the snap, but somehow Zappe didn't see him and made that play a lot harder than he needed to.
Thank you for bringing up this point. I wanted to make it in real time but wasn't able to. Henry was open the first step in the end zone and Zappe could/should have seen it. It was clear as day (easy for me to say watching it on TV...much harder when you're on the ground perhaps). The play was designed for Henry right out of the gate so Zappe should have been looking for it. And it worked. Henry would have been open by 3-4 yards easy and Zappe didn't throw it right away.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Thank you for bringing up this point. I wanted to make it in real time but wasn't able to. Henry was open the first step in the end zone and Zappe could/should have seen it. It was clear as day (easy for me to say watching it on TV...much harder when you're on the ground perhaps). The play was designed for Henry right out of the gate so Zappe should have been looking for it. And it worked. Henry would have been open by 3-4 yards easy and Zappe didn't throw it right away.
Same thing he did in OT at Green Bay. Henry was open on his route and Zappe either didn't see him or couldn't pull the trigger. Cost the Pats a 1st down and thus the game. Something to monitor.
 

Cotillion

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Correct, though the rule still states that the player can reestablish and catch the ball legally. The ref said over the microphone he wasn't pushed to justify their call, which was of course incorrect. Then the refs proceeded to put the ball on the 2 on 4th down instead of the 7, which was the original LoS after the false start on 3rd down.

An all around clusterfuck.

Edit - Oh, just seeing above. I saw several tweets that stated the player could reestablish, similar to a punt. Hmmm...

Edit 2 - If they really can't reestablish as the rules are written, they need to change it.

Edit 3 - Henry was WIDE OPEN right off the snap, but somehow Zappe didn't see him and made that play a lot harder than he needed to.
It's Pro Football Zebras and they are usually pretty good on the rules. I was also of the impression you could re-establish.

It is such an interesting exploit. You'd have to be very precise, but it seems like the ultimate solution to any QB scramble drill near the goal line once out of the pocket. Push (don't defensive hold or ball in the air DPI) your man out of bounds. Problem is the window is so specific probably not doable.
 

lexrageorge

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It's Pro Football Zebras and they are usually pretty good on the rules. I was also of the impression you could re-establish.

It is such an interesting exploit. You'd have to be very precise, but it seems like the ultimate solution to any QB scramble drill near the goal line once out of the pocket. Push (don't defensive hold or ball in the air DPI) your man out of bounds. Problem is the window is so specific probably not doable.
Agree that it's probably a really hard loophole to exploit.

The defender has to be able to push the receiver hard enough for him to go out of bounds during the period between the QB leaving the pocket and the pass being thrown. And then hope the official doesn't just throw the illegal contact flag anyway. There's also a chance the push simply leaves the receiver in better position to catch the pass without ever getting the player out of bounds.
 

BigJimEd

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Rule has always been you can't be the first touch the ball as far as I remember.
I don't mind the rule but would have no issue with them changing it either.

I'm always pushing for DBs to hit receivers as soon as the QB rolls out but much tougher in real time during game action. Have to time it just right.
 

StupendousMan

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Presumably the "push the receiver out of bounds" trick ought to work just fine if a receiver lines up in a very wide outside position, near the sideline. Simply line up the cornerback in press formation, directly across the line of scrimmage, and instruct him to watch for the receiver's first step. If the receiver moves toward the sideline, then the cornerback can push him out while they are both within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage. After that, the receiver can do nothing to make himself eligible again, and the cornerback can run off to cover someone else.

Or am I missing something?

(yes, yes, pushing a large, strong man 3-5 yards sideways is probably not so easy, but this _should_ work -- right?)
 

ShaneTrot

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I have been very impressed with the toughness of the team over the past two games. Both lines have played well, Garrett is a handful and he will get his. The run defense stuffed two teams that run very well and the pass defense stuck it to two bad QBs. That Cleveland pass defense is atrocious, and Zappe took advantage.
 

Mystic Merlin

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The run defense gets a special ball. Chubb is one of the best players in the NFL, one of the few RB who is a legitimate threat to take any touch to the house, and he had 70 total yards with no true explosive plays.
 

Cotillion

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Presumably the "push the receiver out of bounds" trick ought to work just fine if a receiver lines up in a very wide outside position, near the sideline. Simply line up the cornerback in press formation, directly across the line of scrimmage, and instruct him to watch for the receiver's first step. If the receiver moves toward the sideline, then the cornerback can push him out while they are both within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage. After that, the receiver can do nothing to make himself eligible again, and the cornerback can run off to cover someone else.

Or am I missing something?

(yes, yes, pushing a large, strong man 3-5 yards sideways is probably not so easy, but this _should_ work -- right?)
QB has to be out of pocket to avoid the illegal contact foul. So WR can re-establish and still be the first to touch the ball on the catch and the team will just decline the illegal contact foul for the gain on the throw if it was more.
 

Bertha

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I thought Dugger was outstanding. Beyond his defense, I think it was with 4:32 left in Q3, he threw an awesome block on the Cleveland gunner on a browns punt. Love his toughness and intensity.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Ok, so now that the heavy lifting in this thread is done I'm going to give a very light honorable mention to Jonnu Smith. Huge play at a big time. Made it so that the Browns were playing from behind, which is where the Patriots are strongest.

The guy only has like 9 catches this year, but every time he touches the ball it seems like something good happens and he misses tacklers. Got to be some ways to get him in some space.
 

chilidawg

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Thank you for bringing up this point. I wanted to make it in real time but wasn't able to. Henry was open the first step in the end zone and Zappe could/should have seen it. It was clear as day (easy for me to say watching it on TV...much harder when you're on the ground perhaps). The play was designed for Henry right out of the gate so Zappe should have been looking for it. And it worked. Henry would have been open by 3-4 yards easy and Zappe didn't throw it right away.
How can you tell the play was designed for Henry?
 

BaseballJones

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How can you tell the play was designed for Henry?
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As soon as the ball was snapped, Bailey rolled right and is looking right at Henry. If the play WASN'T designed for Henry (the only other receiver in the play is Jonnu, who is bottom left, surrounded by three guys, so it really doesn't make sense that he's the #1 target), he still should have seen him wide open right at this moment.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yeah, it was a designed roll out and Henry was the only receiver on the right. I wonder if Zappe's height is a problem for him and he just can't see stuff so close to the line.
 

chilidawg

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View attachment 56603

As soon as the ball was snapped, Bailey rolled right and is looking right at Henry. If the play WASN'T designed for Henry (the only other receiver in the play is Jonnu, who is bottom left, surrounded by three guys, so it really doesn't make sense that he's the #1 target), he still should have seen him wide open right at this moment.
Thanks!
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Yeah, it was a designed roll out and Henry was the only receiver on the right. I wonder if Zappe's height is a problem for him and he just can't see stuff so close to the line.
This is something to watch. We've seen it a few times already. Henry on the 3rd & 5 in Green Bay, Henry here, even Zappe's highlight throw to Tyquan when he extended and found him left side, started with Thornton being WIDE open in the middle of the field at his break.

56610

Add in the batted balls we've already seen and his height is definitely an issue that he'll have to overcome to be really successful.

EDIT to add: This actually seems a bit concerning because in both cases on Sunday it seems like the play was designed for said receiver. Henry on the roll out, and on this play they have a 6th OL, keep Henry in, and the only other reciever in route is far outside left.

Is this something that could be a timing issue? It does seem like he finds guys visually when they open up, but he's failing to make those close timing throws at the receiver's cut.
 
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